North Korea to conduct nuclear weapons test

Hobbes

Easily, no. Can it be done? Yes.

Yea I certainly think its possible to attack, but the only way to win is make the other side defenseless as quickly as possible. The second a mine sweeper started heading for the DMZ I'm pretty the game would be on both sides.

they just blow these 'obstacles we prepared earlier.'
(For those who, unlike Hobbes and Drapper, have no idea what they look like)

Intresting! I had seen them in Korea and wondered why they had strange short tunnels.

Even without sending troops over, Seoul's ten million concentrated people are within range of tube artillery and rockets, of which the DPRK has a lot

Yep, but any attack is not going to let them win. If anything any attack on Seoul would be met with deadly force.

andrew wrote:

Thoght people might be interested how N Koreas official website feels about kim Jong Il

The sad thing is that there is a lot of people in NK that actually believe that stuff. They honestly think that NK is far superior to any nation in the world.

There would be some level of psychological effects on the attack as well that may be destablizing to NK troops. Imagine being told that your country is the best in the world and you invaded Seoul. I'm pretty sure thier proproganda wouldn't live up to that level of that city alone.

Manic Moran

Hobbes wrote:

Intresting! I had seen them in Korea and wondered why they had strange short tunnels.

They threw me for a short while as well until I looked at them in context. To the sides of them you will see obstacles, sometimes dragon's teeth, or more often a 30' high cement embankment. Basically, the roads are the only weak point in the barrier, and the cement droppables put enough weight of concrete onto the road to make clearing it about as hard as clearing any other part of the barrier line of the pre-existing barrier.

NTM

Lirange

France is stating the Nuclear test failed.

N.Korea nuke test unsuccessful

PARIS - France said outright for the first time Wednesday that
North Korea's proclaimed nuclear test produced such a small blast that it must have failed, and analysts warned such challenging talk could lead Pyongyang to try again.

I cannot help but wonder if the whole event wasn't a put on from the outset

charlie@w.d

All this argueing, but really what threat do north korea have towards usa and uk. Its South Korea that has to worry the most, who wants unification the most, obviously north korea as they are a failing economy and have been for half a century.

The reason South Korea do not want unification is because their economy would definetly be badly effected with the mass exodus of refugees from the dprk. The so called sunshine policy within the 2 countries was an attempt of a temporary peace between the 2 countries and perhaps a resolution which obviously was unlikely considering the policies basic principles.

The main reason Usa are sticking their nose in is because theres a threat to the process of non-proliferation with Japan and South korea considering rearming themselves with nuclear warheads. theres also another reason, the simple fact that usa were the main reasons behind establishing south korea.

charlie@w.d

Hobbes wrote:

The sad thing is that there is a lot of people in NK that actually believe that stuff. They honestly think that NK is far superior to any nation in the world.

when u say a lot of people i am sure u mean at least 100% of people, because to even think or talk something different, means a long spell in one of their many concentration camps

oscarBravo

Lirange wrote:

France is stating the Nuclear test failed.

Interesting. When I heard 550 tons, my first thought was: "fizzle". Looks like that's been corroborated.

Hobbes

charlie@w.d wrote:

when u say a lot of people i am sure u mean at least 100%

I wouldn't say that. I would say there is dissent but it only gets stamped on when its visible. Like making half a town disappear when an anti-kim poster appeared on a bridge one time.

But there is a north korean documentry of the day in a life of a *normal* family and it is quite scary. For example you see little kids in the streets singing death to America as a nursery ryhme.

RedPlanet

Lirange wrote:

France is stating the Nuclear test failed.

N.Korea nuke test unsuccessful



I cannot help but wonder if the whole event wasn't a put on from the outset

ah, well that's refreshing.
I suppose we can all go back to sleep now.
I wonder however, why the US would pursue a UN Resolution against NK if all they've done was blow up a little TNT on their own turf?
Surely that isn't some international crime.

Nuttzz

RedPlanet wrote:

ah, well that's refreshing.
I suppose we can all go back to sleep now.
I wonder however, why the US would pursue a UN Resolution against NK if all they've done was blow up a little TNT on their own turf?
Surely that isn't some international crime.

You nearly seem happy that NK is developing nuclear weapons, I cant see how any additions to the nuclear club be they NK, Iran, Israel, South Africia or wherever is a positive thing for mankind....

Unpossible

But there is a north korean documentry of the day in a life of a *normal* family and it is quite scary.

I saw a similar (possibly the same) documentry a year or two ago, was it following a girl who was training for the national show/games ?

It looks like your average North Korean believes that the countries military is state of the art and undefeatable (in the doc I mentioned the family watch soilders marching on tv and remark "look at our army the whole world fears us*"), the question is how many of the military leaders have swallowed the same propaganda? I mean if you keep hearing and telling people you're undefeatable and the US is scared of you then eventually you will start to believe it yourself.

I reckon Kim himself is clever and completly on top of his game, yet I wonder if he has started to believe his own hype and surely there is one or two generals who believe it as well.

edit: forgot to mention, at the end of the documentry the narrator makes a comment along the lines of:
The party stays in power and keeps the peoples minds off their problems by constantly promting the victory over the US, but its been years since the wat and people are starting to forget it. Prehaps they need a new struggle/war to focus on to keep power*

*this is all paraphrasing as I cant remember the exact words.

Blue37

Unpossible wrote:

edit: forgot to mention, at the end of the documentry the narrator makes a comment along the lines of:
The party stays in power and keeps the peoples minds off their problems by constantly promting the victory over the US, but its been years since the wat and people are starting to forget it. Prehaps they need a new struggle/war to focus on to keep power*

*this is all paraphrasing as I cant remember the exact words.

That's alarmist rubbish from whoever narrated the documentary tbh

I'd think a fresh war with America would be a lot more likely to lose them power not to mention their lives

Unpossible

I'd think a fresh war with America would be a lot more likely to lose them power not to mention their lives

Yep, I think the same thing problem is how many of the top men there think the same thing.

That's alarmist rubbish

could be argued that most documentrys about the place are alarmist rubbish as its pretty secluded and we have to take the TV stations word on it, I'd love to go and find out what its really like (if I could speak korean of course)

Blue37

Unpossible wrote:

could be argued that most documentrys about the place are alarmist rubbish as its pretty secluded and we have to take the TV stations word on it, I'd love to go and find out what its really like (if I could speak korean of course)

Indeed that's one problem I've always had with the whole North Korea thing. I mean it's so secluded who's to say things such as the starvation in the country are even half as bad as is portrayed by a Western media with its own agendas. Refugees who have escaped are often wheeled out as proof of an evil regime but these people are almost always by definition dissidents and will therefore have their own agendas

The only concrete FACT we have about N.Korea in the west is that we don't know many facts

charlie@w.d

heres an interesting documentary well worth the 45 mins
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6951629397402742053&q=north+korea

if u type north korea ino you tube or google videos it brings up some very interesting stuff.
Refugees that get into china have repeatedly claimed that conditions are so bad over there that families are driven to swap their young children with other families because they will not eat there own. The stories refugees have told are sometimes even just as bad as that.

charlie@w.d

heres the documentary your on about. i saw it a few years ago on bbc 4 it was excellant, but only shows the wealthy north koreans for obvious reasons

http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid=3883460910498719795&sourceid=zeitgeist

fly_agaric

Blue37 wrote:

Refugees who have escaped are often wheeled out as proof of an evil regime but these people are almost always by definition dissidents and will therefore have their own agendas

True, but the stories refugees told about what was going on in Cambodia under Pol Pot were also thought to be exaggerated - so it is possible the refugees/escapees are telling the truth.

Manic Moran

RedPlanet wrote:

ah, well that's refreshing.
I suppose we can all go back to sleep now.
I wonder however, why the US would pursue a UN Resolution against NK if all they've done was blow up a little TNT on their own turf?
Surely that isn't some international crime.

Try robbing a bank with a fake gun instead of a real one. See if that gets you off.

Japan has already said that even if the test turned out to be fake, NK deserves a slapping anyway for wasting everyone's time/effort. (Or something like that)

NTM

bonkey

Manic Moran wrote:

Try robbing a bank with a fake gun instead of a real one. See if that gets you off.

Indeed. But in this case, robbing the bank is most likely what is illegal, not the brandishing of a fake gun

Japan has already said that even if the test turned out to be fake, NK deserves a slapping anyway for wasting everyone's time/effort. (Or something like that)

Real or fake....what rules did they break? They withdrew from the NPT, so a real test wouldn't be in violation of anything they're required to adhere to, and a fake test wouldn't be in violation of anything at all that I can see.

It seems the slapping would be for "doing stuff we don't like" which is hardly a good approach to international politics. I'm pretty certain that all of the permanent members of hte security council would bristle massively if someone were to suggest censuring them for not breaking any laws.

I am open, of course, to being shown that NK did violate some rules....I just haven't seen any reference to them anywhere.

jc

Unpossible

heres the documentary your on about. i saw it a few years ago on bbc 4 it was excellant, but only shows the wealthy north koreans for obvious reasons

Well the documentary thats being reffered to is the one Ive seen, but this is my first time seeing this american version of it. Have to say I prefer the english version

LostinBlanch

Blue37 wrote:

Indeed that's one problem I've always had with the whole North Korea thing. I mean it's so secluded who's to say things such as the starvation in the country are even half as bad as is portrayed by a Western media with its own agendas. Refugees who have escaped are often wheeled out as proof of an evil regime but these people are almost always by definition dissidents and will therefore have their own agendas

The only concrete FACT we have about N.Korea in the west is that we don't know many facts

I heard an interview a couple of years ago (on Pat Kenny I think) with some representatives from Dept of Agriculture / Foreign Affairs who were invited over there to help the North Koreans to increase their agricultural output. The stories that they told weren't nice listening.

I don't know what agenda they would have though. :rolleyes:

Hobbes

charlie@w.d wrote:

heres the documentary your on about. i saw it a few years ago on bbc 4 it was excellant, but only shows the wealthy north koreans for obvious reasons

http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid=3883460910498719795&sourceid=zeitgeist

Thats not the one I saw. The one I saw it was made by North Koreans, so it was oodling with proproganda but even then it was scary.

Forget the name of it but starts off in the familys home where the wife is cleaning pictures of Kim in the house.

Manic Moran

bonkey wrote:

Real or fake....what rules did they break?

I'm sure something along the lines of extortion or coercion. Slapping a country down for doing something they don't like is certainly no more wrong than a country issueing threats (With absolutely zero support) to get something they do like.

NTM

RedPlanet

Hey it's being reported that: "North Korea has already produced several nuclear weapons and is ready to deploy them, a high-ranking defector said yesterday. Hwang Jang-Yop, a former secretary of the ruling Workers Party of Korea"
http://www.gulf-times.com/site/topics/article.asp?cu_no=2&item_no=112494&version=1&template_id=45&parent_id=25

So, should we believe what all defectors say or just cherry pick the ones that we prefer?

Lirange

Preliminary tests by the U.S. indicate traces of radioactivity

US scientists found that there were traces of radioactivity in the air near the site of last Monday's alleged nuclear test. However, White House officials cautioned that this result alone did not confirm a successful test but it could mean that a nuclear test was attempted. One official quoted by the Associated Press said the results could indicate a "nuclear fizzle", rather than a full test.

It appears the test was a genuine attempt. Even if it didn't go to plan.

Frederico

I am watching Bolton speaking now at UN about North Korea, I don't remember this speech happening when Pakistan or India got nukes.