Jack Straw and the Muslims!

aslantheslayer

THe Ex British Foreign Secretary and Now Leader of the House of commons has stated that Muslim Women should take of there veils whilst in his Miinisterial Clinic.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2006460447,00.html

Right or wrong it takes reall Balls for a Politician to take a stand like this!

I would say I agree with Mr Straw.

RedPlanet

aslantheslayer wrote:

THe Ex British Foreign Secretary and Now Leader of the House of commons has stated that Muslim Women should take of there veils whilst in his Miinisterial Clinic.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2006460447,00.html

Right or wrong it takes reall Balls for a Politician to take a stand like this!

I would say I agree with Mr Straw.

I would say it demonstrates his intolerance toward islam and willingness to dismiss some of his constituents.

Hobbes

If only he asked all women to remove thier tops.

lostexpectation

he who does not invade countries may speak first,


headline could have read,

muslim women happy to remove veil in face to face meetings

Collie D

aslantheslayer wrote:

Right or wrong it takes reall Balls for a Politician to take a stand like this!

I would say I agree with Mr Straw.

And his stand is what exactly? Is he asking all Catholics to remove rosary beads? OPriests to remove dog collars? The guy should remember he is representing the people who elected him and not challenging their customs or religions

Hobbes

You know I actually bothered to read the news story and he doesn't say muslim women should take off the veils. Only that would they mind removing them.

He's entitled to his opinion, so are the women. If they don't want to remove them they dont have to.

Bit of a non-story.

Boggle

I saw the story on Sky yesterday. What he said is that he would LIKE for Muslim women when meeting him face to face to remove their veils. He does not impose this, just requests it and he is respectful in that he ensures that another woman is present in the room at all times.

I don't see the problem. If I want to have a face to face discussion, I would prefer to see the otherpersons face! Otherwise I might aswell be on he phone...

aslantheslayer

He Has further since on breakfast News on the BBC said he would prefer that they remove there veils.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nolavconsole/ifs_news/hi/nb_rm_fs.stm?news=1&nbram=1&nbwm=1&nol_storyid=5412640

http://news.aol.co.uk/veil-row-straw-digs-deeper/article/20061006030809990001

He has caused a massive debate in the UK, and angered some of the Muslim people.

I agree with Mr Straw that it does hinder communication.

And To be Honest I dont feel it is part of mondern day living. Now Im no expert on the Muslim faith but from what Ive seen read and seen it is not Muslim Faith that requires women to wear this, Its how the Muslim faith is practised by others.

Covering your body and face in a shroud is hardly the same as wearing roseary beads.

DadaKopf

I'll wait for women to come out and say exactly how Straw put it to them to remove their burkahs before I judge whether Straw's OK or not.

He is entitled to his view, as are women who decide to cover their faces. Though I do think it's very inappropriate for a public servant to make this request.

Sesshoumaru

DadaKopf wrote:

I'll wait for women to come out and say exactly how Straw put it to them to remove their burkahs before I judge whether Straw's OK or not.

He is entitled to his view, as are women who decide to cover their faces. Though I do think it's very inappropriate for a public servant to make this request.

Its just common courtesy. Personally I think I would find it very uncomfortable talking to someone who dresses like some ninja. I remember seeing women like this in Malaysia and I felt uncomfortable just being around them. The local chinese malaysians didn't like them much either.

Kudos to Jack Straw for taking a principled stand against this separatist mentality. Its about time someone in high office started saying what needs to be said. Our ways or the highway I say!

Zombrex

Sesshoumaru wrote:

Personally I think I would find it very uncomfortable talking to someone who dresses like some ninja.

The surely the problem is why you, and your attitude, is it not? Is the responsibility of others to make you feel comfortable?

Sesshoumaru wrote:

Our ways or the highway I say!

What exactly is "our way" ... last time I checked people in Ireland and Britian were allowed wear any clothes they feel most comfortable in. Is that not our way?

Zombrex

Hobbes wrote:

If only he asked all women to remove thier tops.

Here here. I'm glad someone final said it Hobbes, it has been brimming under the surface for a long time.

It is a total disgrace that women are oppressed by the Christian religious dogma and fundamentalism that they have to wear tops and bras that cover and hide their natural breasts. Breasts are normal, they should not be hidden for religious grounds. That is just absurd.

Do we want to support this ridiculous religious requirement! Hell no! And I'm glad Hobbes has final said it.

Any woman that does cover up her breasts is supporting this oppression, oppression of other women.

We clearly can't reason with them or expect them to just realise this because they have been brain washed by the religion itself.

The only answer is to demand that women go topless.

The sooner we rid this horribly sexist Christian dogma from our society the better. Religion has no place in fashion!

Who is with me!!

metrovelvet

Except WK that bras and tops enhance our natural beauty, curves and breasts. They are not reminders of shame and invisibility.

Just as the nuns made girls chop off their hair - here another religion makes them cover it up.

Does Jack Straw sit in a governmment building? If so it seems like it would be an obvious security measure. If messengers have to remove their helmuts..... and in big cities you now have your photo taken when entering government buildings, this seems like a reasonable request. Especially since you can hide weapons under those things.

fly_agaric

Oh God! More garbage.
Maybe that chap Branson can build a rocket and fire Blair, Straw, Reid and few dozen beburkahed Muslim good-time babes off to the moon in it?:mad:

Why can't the media give us some peace from this bs for even a week or two?

Who gives a crap if he feels a bit antsy when he talks with a muslim constituent in a full face veil?
Who gives a crap if he asks her if she'd remove it when he speaks with her and is told yay or nay?

What is gained by Jack Straw himself or the media making a massive fuss over these "burning" issues?

That's it - I'm pulling out the coax and ethernet cables and burning my newspaper...

Wicknight wrote:

Is the responsibility of others to make you feel comfortable?

It is courtesy though, isn't it?

Wicknight wrote:

The only answer is to demand that women go topless.

I'm sure breasts could really emote if we could just see them during our everyday conversations!
Some men may even prefer to "talk to the breast". Or not?

mike65

I'm with Straw on this one all he has done is ask for the coutesy of being able to converse with a contituent face to face rather than face to cloth.

Its a cultural thing (of course), in the Christian West the use of a cover on the face is viewed as being (at best) at matter for intrigue, at worst as a cover for "ner do wells" and criminals. In the west we place great value in the 'persona'. Its an extention of body language and Straw is simply reflecting his and my cultural baggage.

So where does that leave those who view the world through a narrow slit in a black veil? Distanced from the majority and the subject of suspicion. Thats one of the many Culture Gaps now opening up in the western world as it becomes less western.

Mike.

Sesshoumaru

Wicknight wrote:

The surely the problem is why you, and your attitude, is it not? Is the responsibility of others to make you feel comfortable?



What exactly is "our way" ... last time I checked people in Ireland and Britian were allowed wear any clothes they feel most comfortable in. Is that not our way?

I said it made me feel uncomfortable. But I don't particularly care what Muslims do in their own countries. I do care what they do over here. If someone came up to me and started talking to me, then yes I would prefer they removed their holy/ninja/whatever garb so I could at least see their face.

Lets not forget immigrants don't have some kind of inalienable right to come and live here. They can come and live here because we let them. There is a precondition to that privilege and its integration! Jack Straw was right when he said it leads to division in communities. Being able to see your neighbours face is an essential part of communication. Its not negotiable.

RedPlanet

Sesshoumaru wrote:

I said it made me feel uncomfortable. But I don't particularly care what Muslims do in their own countries. I do care what they do over here. If someone came up to me and started talking to me, then yes I would prefer they removed their holy/ninja/whatever garb so I could at least see their face.

Lets not forget immigrants don't have some kind of inalienable right to come and live here. They can come and live here because we let them. There is a precondition to that privilege and its integration! Jack Straw was right when he said it leads to division in communities. Being able to see your neighbours face is an essential part of communication. Its not negotiable.

I'm not familiar with this precondition of integration as you say.
Could you elaborate on that because i've a feeling the European Court of Human Rights may have an opinion.

You know, the Amish must be totally screwed if they tried coming here huh?

"Come out from among them and be ye separate, saith the Lord." (II Corinthians 6:17)

(one of the Bible versus they use to justify not integrating)

Darragh29

I'm looking at Sky News here and their corresponent Alex Crawford was just reporting from Pakistan on the earthquakes that happened over there some time ago. I was surprised to see that she was wearing a Muslim headscarf, covering her head and shoulders, not something I've ever seen teh same reporter wearing previously, probably eliminating the possibility that she is a Muslim. I should point out that this was obviously a Muslim headscarf as you would see any Muslim woman wearing on Grafton Street on any day.

My point is that here is a non Muslim woman in a Muslim country and she is REQUIRED to wear a headscarf in line with religious sensitivities appropriate to the country that she is in, so it must surely follow that a Muslim woman, if she is asked to remove her headscarf only for a temporary period of time so that a proper conversation can exist between two people, should have no problem whatsoever in doing so!?!?! Imagine the uproar we would have to listen to if Muslim women were REQUIRED to remove their headscarfs upon arrival in the UK, similar to how non Muslim women visiting Muslim countries are REQUIRED to wear a headscarf in many Muslim countries. In my humble opionion, this shows up how unreasonable and intransigent Muslim people are. When you're in Rome, do as the Romans do.

Sesshoumaru

RedPlanet wrote:

I'm not familiar with this precondition of integration as you say.
Could you elaborate on that because i've a feeling the European Court of Human Rights may have an opinion.

You know, the Amish must be totally screwed if they tried coming here huh?

(one of the Bible versus they use to justify not integrating)

Its not rocket science. Either they integrate and accept our values or they can go home. Its either that or you pander to them like the French do and what does that get you? It gets you a hostile army living inside your own borders. I don't want to see the rest of Europe turning out like this.

RedPlanet

Darragh29 wrote:

When you're in Rome, do as the Romans do.

Damn, does that mean i have to go out and get stupidly drunk every weekend since i'm in Ireland?

b3t4

Jee's mention muslim and the whole place gets over sensitive.

The guy merely asks women to remove their head scarves and does not require them to do so.

I know that I find it very hard to speak with a person who is wearing sun glasses and will always remove my sunglasses if I begin speaking with a person. I find it hard to read what they are saying without seeing their eyes.

I can see how it might be difficult to read what somone is saying without being able to see their face. He works (used to?) in a clinic surely its important in making a diagnosis to be able to read a person's facial expresions.

Not exactly similar but has anyone miss read the tone or expression of a text message simply because the person isn't physically present? I know I have.

A.

RedPlanet

I once had the opportunity to work with loads of Laotian immigrants.
They would never look me in the eye as we spoke, but would always divert their eyes. It bugged me. I couldn't figure out what was going on.
Finally i got to know one well enough that i quizzed him about it (he mostly avoided eye contact too). He explained that where they are from, it is rude and confrontational to make eye contact.
I couldn't imagine trying to force them to look me in the eye as we spoke.
In fact, i wouldn't even ask them politely to do it.

Sesshoumaru

RedPlanet wrote:

Damn, does that mean i have to go out and get stupidly drunk every weekend since i'm in Ireland?

Well if you read your history books you'd know our culture is largely based on Roman culture.

Zombrex

Sesshoumaru wrote:

I said it made me feel uncomfortable. But I don't particularly care what Muslims do in their own countries.

So you have no problem with Irish Muslims wearing the veil?

Sesshoumaru wrote:

If someone came up to me and started talking to me, then yes I would prefer they removed their holy/ninja/whatever garb so I could at least see their face.

Well with that attitude I doubt many Muslims will actually want to talk to you in the first place, so that kinda takes care of that. Problem solved.

Sesshoumaru wrote:

Lets not forget immigrants don't have some kind of inalienable right to come and live here.

They do have an inalienable right to wear their veil while here.

Sesshoumaru wrote:

There is a precondition to that privilege and its integration! Jack Straw was right when he said it leads to division in communities.

I would imagine you refusing to talk to someone one wearing a Muslim veil would be what leads to a division of communites.

This "problem" only arises if the Muslims are attempting to talk with non-Muslims in the first place, in which case they seem to be making the first step and it is you who are actually causing the division.

Sesshoumaru wrote:

Being able to see your neighbours face is an essential part of communication.

Yes because wearing a veil means you are unable to speak in English ... oh wait, no it doesn't. :rolleyes:

Its amazing that Muslim women have been able to function for centuries without being able to communicate with others!. How do they do the shopping in Tescos?!! Sign language? :eek:

Zombrex

b3t4 wrote:

The guy merely asks women to remove their head scarves and does not require them to do so.

Imagine if Jack Straw merely asked a western woman to remove her top and bra while talking to them, but not actually requiring them to do so.

I would imagine the "merely" would be dropped rather quickly from your post.

b3t4

Wicknight, I wasn't under the impression that muslim women are naked under their burkas or head scarves. Am I incorrect in believing that muslim women wear clothes under their veils?

I can see a problem with what you suggest as the women is left naked.
I do not see a problem with being asked to remove an outer garment that does not leave oneself naked.

I don't get offended is someone suggests I take off my coat and hang it on the clothes hanger if I enter someones home.

A.

wes

These Women aren't bothering anyone so I am of the opinion of leaving them alone. Sure first make the Muslim Women take of there veils and then lets make the Sikhs take of there turbans. Just another guy taking a shot at Minority of Muslim women who wear the veil (loads don't even wear it). So this is a non issue, there aren't a lot of Muslim Women who go in for the whole veil thing. I reckon this is just a way for Jack Straw to get his name in the papers.

Zombrex

b3t4 wrote:

Wicknight, I wasn't under the impression that muslim women are naked under their burkas or head scarves.

If by "naked" you mean exposing inapproate parts of their body in public, then yes they are.

b3t4 wrote:

I do not see a problem with being asked to remove an outer garment that does not leave oneself naked.

That is because you clearly don't understand why Muslim women wear the head scarf in the first place. To a Muslim they are naked.

In western society it is considered totally sexually inapprorate (even against the law) to expose certain areas of the body in public. These are the breasts and groin on a woman, and the groin on a man.

It doesn't matter if somone is wearing clothes on the rest of their body, these areas have to be covered.

We also have a sliding scale of legal yet inapproate displays of flesh. It is fine for a man to be topless on the beach, but not in work.

This is the very same logic behind the Muslim veil.

A Muslim woman who wears a veil believes that it is inapproate to expose areas of the head, particularly the hair, in public, just a western Christian women believe that it is inapprorate to expose their breasts or nipples in public.

As with Christian women their is a sliding scale of what is acceptable. Some Muslims only cover the hair, while others cover the entire face and hair.

Asking a Muslim woman to remove her veil is asking her to be naked, just as asking a Christian woman to remove her top and bra is.

b3t4 wrote:

I don't get offended is someone suggests I take off my coat and hang it on the clothes hanger if I enter someones home.

Would you get offended if they asked to see your penis (or if you are a woman, your breasts)

If a western woman went to african on charity work where it is common for the women to be topless, would you consider it bad form for the western woman to not get topless?

Because I've seen a lot of television presenters and charity works on TV wander around African tribes where the women are all hanging out, and none of the western presenters or works are ever topless. Funny that.

Flukey

Darragh29 wrote:

My point is that here is a non Muslim woman in a Muslim country and she is REQUIRED to wear a headscarf in line with religious sensitivities appropriate to the country that she is in, so it must surely follow that a Muslim woman, if she is asked to remove her headscarf only for a temporary period of time so that a proper conversation can exist between two people, should have no problem whatsoever in doing so!?!?! Imagine the uproar we would have to listen to if Muslim women were REQUIRED to remove their headscarfs upon arrival in the UK, similar to how non Muslim women visiting Muslim countries are REQUIRED to wear a headscarf in many Muslim countries. In my humble opionion, this shows up how unreasonable and intransigent Muslim people are. When you're in Rome, do as the Romans do.

There is a big difference there. In the muslim countries it is a requirement, as you say yourself, that they wear it, and the reporter wears it. It is not a requirement here that they don't wear it, as you say. So they are free to wear it if they want to. A normal and proper conversation can be had when someone is wearing one, so there is no need to remove it. OK, they do look a bit sinister when wearing one, but they do carry on a day to day life, including conducting conversations, while doing so.

It is always funny in these situations, that many of the people that complain about women being covered up and not being allowed to drink, are the same ones that will complain about young women on the streets half-dressed and totally drunk. I am sure many parents in Ireland would be happy to have their daughters safe at home tonight, rather than out on the streets in such a state. There are pros and cons to all these situations.

RedPlanet

Wicknight wrote:

If a western woman went to african on charity work where it is common for the women to be topless, would you consider it bad form for the western woman to not get topless?

Because I've seen a lot of television presenters and charity works on TV wander around African tribes where the women are all hanging out, and none of the western presenters or works are ever topless. Funny that.

Yeah it's a good point that.
Where is Darragh29 with his "When you're in Rome, do as the Romans do" now?
I think the reasons have something to do with this repulsive attitude of culture superiority that i am ashamed to see in this country.
Maybe a bit of racism too.

Zombrex

Darragh29 wrote:

My point is that here is a non Muslim woman in a Muslim country and she is REQUIRED to wear a headscarf in line with religious sensitivities appropriate to the country that she is in, so it must surely follow that a Muslim woman, if she is asked to remove her headscarf only for a temporary period of time so that a proper conversation can exist between two people, should have no problem whatsoever in doing so!?!?!

It doesn't work like that.

What we are talking about here is two different standards of inapproate flesh bearing.

We (western Christians) set the requirement that you only cover up your breasts and groin. Muslim countries have stricter requirements, that one cover their hair as well. (btw you also will be asked to do this if you enter a church in Italy).

It doesn't work in reverse. We can't expect a Muslim woman to get naked by their standards, just because we don't hold to the same standard. To the Muslim she is still naked.

Would you expect western aid workers to walk around topless in some parts of Africa just because it is ok for women to walk around topless in parts of Africa?

I would imagine that most of the woman would still feel very uncomfortable doing so, and would still choose not to do it. And they shouldn't be forced to either.

Likewise is an African tribes woman came to Ireland, we would not tolerate her walking around topless. It would be considered outragious and she would be told to cover herself up. How is this any different than in Muslim countries.

In fact Muslim countries seem a lot more tolerent about not wearing the scarf than we do about exposing say your breasts in public. Lots of women in the middle east don't wear the scarf.