Jack Straw and the Muslims!

Zombrex

RedPlanet wrote:

I think the reasons have something to do with this repulsive attitude of culture superiority that i am ashamed to see in this country.
Maybe a bit of racism too.

Agreed. Its the belief that our standards are correct, and everyone else is wrong.

The Africans are wrong for their women not wearing enough clothes, and the Muslims are wrong their women wearing too much clothes.

It is simply arrogance, ignorance and lack of understanding.

We are the Goldielocks of the world, we think our standards are "just right"

I really don't get the objection to the Muslim veil though. I could understand the objection if an African woman wanted to get her bits on Grafton St, but the Muslim woman already adhering to our moral standards in dress code. She just wears more to bring herself up to her own standard. What is the freaking problem. The who thing is ridiculous. "But I can't see her mouth when she talks?" So freaking what, it doesn't matter. You can hear her can't you.

fly_agaric

Wicknight wrote:

Asking a Muslim woman to remove her veil is asking her to be naked, just as asking a Christian woman to remove her top and bra is.

So can we redefine the face so it becomes just as much of an erogenous zone as a pair of breasts?
Isn't that a bit insane?
Taking relativity a bit too far?
I mean I bet those women would have been a tad upset and creeped out if Straw had asked them to flash their knockers for him instead! That would have made a much much better and more interesting story IMO.

Wicknight wrote:

Would you expect western aid workers to walk around topless in some parts of Africa just because it is ok for women to walk around topless in parts of Africa?

If the "Western" women in Africa are going to live among those no-top-wearing African women rather than just visit then maybe they could strip off out of politeness you know.
But they shouldn't be forced to do it.

Wicknight wrote:

really don't get the objection to the Muslim veil though.

I think mike65 covered it well in his post except I don't think people getting creeped out by the covering up of faces, the wearing of masks etc is an entirely "Western" cultural quirk either.

b3t4

Wicknight,
Just because someone asks me to do something doesn't require me to do it. If I get offended by something that someone asks me to do I simply do not comply to what they asked me to do.

would you consider it bad form for the western woman to not get topless?

I feel that they can choose to either go topless or not, they do not have to go topless. In this case the women also had the choice.

Also, how is a room in a clinic with at most two people in attending, concidered in public? I've had to be half naked in a GP's and I certainly wouldn't consider myself to be in the public eye when doing so.

None of the women refused to remove their veils in this case so I believe this is all a big fuss over nothing.

A.

RedPlanet

fly_agaric wrote:

So can we redefine the face so it becomes just as much of an erogenous zone as a pair of breasts?
Isn't that a bit insane?
Taking relativity a bit too far?

What you've never kissed someone before?
In fact a mouth is an orfice often used in sexual acts.
http://freemorpheus.altervista.org/_altervista_ht/lips.jpg
http://images2.nordstrom.com/images/store/boutique/smashbox/1017/lips.jpg

Zombrex

fly_agaric wrote:

So can we redefine the face so it becomes just as much of an erogenous zone as a pair of breasts?

Muslims already did. About 1,200 years ago.

fly_agaric wrote:

Isn't that a bit insane?

I think all religious beliefs are insane.

fly_agaric wrote:

Taking relativity a bit too far?

"Relativity"?

At the turn of the century showing ankles was considered the hight of erotica in Britian. Relativity has nothing to do with what is sex and what isn't. The more something is covered up, the sexier it is when it is actually revealed. Look at the fad for showing the belly button going the rounds since the late 90s.

fly_agaric wrote:

I mean I bet those women would have been a tad upset and creeped out if Straw had asked them to flash their knockers for him instead! That would have made a much much better and more interesting story IMO.

Agreed. But then a porn star wouldn't. They are often asked to get completely naked in interviews.

The issue isn't what Straw deemed approprate, the issue is what the woman herself deems approprate. So long as she isn't breaking our standards I fail to see what the fuss is about.

fly_agaric wrote:

If the "Western" women in Africa are going to live among those no-top-wearing African women rather than just visit then maybe they could strip off out of politeness you know.

I seriously doubt they would.

A lot of charity workers live in Africa for at least a few years. I have never heard or seen of any of them take their tops off in public just because the other women are, nor do I think any of them would be prepared to so.

And as far as I know the African women don't expect them to.

It seems to be just us who get upset about women not showing enough flesh.

fly_agaric wrote:

But they shouldn't be forced to do it.

Agreed.

fly_agaric

RedPlanet wrote:

What you've never kissed someone before?
In fact a mouth is an orfice often used in sexual acts.
http://freemorpheus.altervista.org/_altervista_ht/lips.jpg
http://images2.nordstrom.com/images/store/boutique/smashbox/1017/lips.jpg

*Sigh* Don't know why I did not see that coming.:) I need to get out more...
I still say it would have been a better story if Straw had asked for a little flash from his constituents...

Zombrex

b3t4 wrote:

Wicknight,
Just because someone asks me to do something doesn't require me to do it.

Ummm, yes I wonder if the next time the local pervert around my place gets called in by the guards he will use that excuse.

"Look copper, just because I asked those women to get naked doesn't mean they were required to do so. Its not my fault"

b3t4 wrote:

I feel that they can choose to either go topless or not, they do not have to go topless.

So if a man in say, a bank, asked your sister or mother to take her top off before they continue talking, you would be fine with that?

Ummm, why do I not believe you :rolleyes:

b3t4 wrote:

I've had to be half naked in a GP's and I certainly wouldn't consider myself to be in the public eye when doing so.

So if you went into the doctors for a cut on your head and he asked you to take off your trousers and pants you would be fine with that?

Ummm, again why do I not believe you ... :rolleyes:

fly_agaric

Wicknight wrote:

Muslims already did. About 1,200 years ago.

"Relativity"?

At the turn of the century showing ankles was considered the hight of erotica in Britian. Relativity has nothing to do with what is sex and what isn't. The more something is covered up, the sexier it is when it is actually revealed. Look at the fad for showing the belly button going the rounds since the late 90s.

I was trying to say that whatever the shifts of culture + time and how something taboo in one culture may not be in another some things are always more or less taboo than others. Is there not a fixed scale based on our bodies?
That exposing your breasts or your penis or whatever is always going to be a bigger "deal" than exposing your face. So making your direct comparison between Muslim face and Christian breasts or Christian full nudity [i.e. Jack Straw asking a muslim woman if she'd peal back her veil would be like if he'd asked a non-muslim to show her breasts or strip] doesn't seem very fair to me. Dramatic and effective for getting your point across but unfair.
Muslims (or some of them) may define the face as a taboo zone to be covered up but breasts must be even more taboo for them then rather than just like the face.

Wicknight wrote:

A lot of charity workers live in Africa for at least a few years. I have never heard or seen of any of them take their tops off in public just because the other women are, nor do I think any of them would be prepared to so.

And as far as I know the African women don't expect them to.

Sorry, I meant a much more permanent, settle down and have kids kind of "living" among the topless women.


To finish, I don't see why Jack Straw feels the need to have a big fancy public debate and discussion about how he personally relates to his veiled muslim women constituents (???) or why the media want to stir up a load of crap about it either. No good can come of it really IMO.

Wicknight wrote:

The issue isn't what Straw deemed approprate, the issue is what the woman herself deems approprate.

So if they were not insulted by what he did it is okay then?

Flukey

Wicknight wrote:

At the turn of the century showing ankles was considered the hight of erotica in Britian.

The turn of the century was in fact only just under 6 years ago, so that statement would not be true.

Guy:Incognito

Wicknight wrote:

What exactly is "our way" ... last time I checked people in Ireland and Britian were allowed wear any clothes they feel most comfortable in. Is that not our way?

Would you feel comfortable with some guy coming up to you with a motobike helmet on and having a conversation with you? It's common courtesy to take off the helmet and talk to someone.

Guy:Incognito

Wicknight wrote:

Imagine if Jack Straw merely asked a western woman to remove her top and bra while talking to them, but not actually requiring them to do so.

I would imagine the "merely" would be dropped rather quickly from your post.

Womens breasts are seen as a sexual part of the body that have to be covered for reasons of decency as opposed to the face which is used to see, smell, hear, communicate , eat, drink etc.

Wicknight wrote:

Would you get offended if they asked to see your penis (or if you are a woman, your breasts).

Something being "common" has nothing to do with forcing it upon anyone. Western women are free to cover up or go topless as they see fit.

Why should non muslim women be forced to wear muslim garbs when in muslim countries. If the goverment decide tomorow that we all have to wear a cross and rosary beads, should all non cristians/catholics be required to put them on when entering the country?

Wicknight wrote:

We also have a sliding scale of legal yet inapproate displays of flesh. It is fine for a man to be topless on the beach, but not in work..

Theres no law against a man being topless in work, it's down to the job. I'm a plumber and have spent quite a few days this summer without a top on hot days. No armed response units descended on me.

Wicknight wrote:

So if a man in say, a bank, asked your sister or mother to take her top off before they continue talking, you would be fine with that?

Theres absolutely no sane reason to have to see a womans breasts to be able to hold a conversation with her.

aslantheslayer

Wearing the Shroud is not part of Msulim Faith. It is a choice.

If Muslims wantto wear this in a Muslim Country then that is fine.

But the UK and Ireland are Christian Countries. So the wearing of these should be discouraged.

Wicknight suggests that the reason for the wearing is to stop flesh being shown. So with this in mind are you also saying that Christian women are Naked? Are they going around insulting the Muslim faith?

I can not go into a Bank wearing a crash Helmet, So why should a muslim be allowed to wear this? If they want to wear thid in there own home fine. But in Public this sort of dress can not be really in the best intreast of good relations and faith in your fellow neighbour.

I remeber a few years ago, all the fuss about the hoodys. And shopping Centers banning Hoodies from them. Can you imagine the uproar if they banned a muslim wearing one of these!

CiaranC

Wicknight wrote:

Well with that attitude I doubt many Muslims will actually want to talk to you in the first place, so that kinda takes care of that. Problem solved.

Youve hit the nail on the head there Wicknight. Rather than explain to a Muslim that wearing a veil during conversation makes us uncomfortable and suspicious due to hundreds of years of cultural conditioning, we should kowtow to their cultural values. Which are somehow more valid than ours, even in our own countries. We wont even mention it to them, in case it upsets them. If we do, they wont want to talk to us anyway. Of course, we'll have to remain uncomfortable and suspicious around them, but thats life. Its not just a veil thing, the same goes for free speech, sexual mores, religious rights, womens rights etc. etc.

We'll find that in fact, its just easier to ignore them. Dont speak to them, dont engage in commerce with them, dont engage them at all. Leave them in their own areas of our cities, with their own places of worship, schools, doctors, hospitals etc. We'll ignore them at government level too. Who are we to legislate for people of different values? Let them simmer for 50 years or so, and then watch the race riots explode all over the place.

Never mind that the same thing can be seen in both England and France today, that we already have a blueprint for this failure. Sure we'll go down the multicultural route too, its our duty as freedom loving liberal Europeans.

smemon

the reality is - muslim's aren't as easy going as the rest of us.

they are over-sensitive and any insults or criticism/jokes aimed at them are seen as an insult to all muslims and their god.

the fact that they actually listen to jack straw, let alone take him seriously, shows that they are paranoid and defensive. The rest of us are just laughing at all of this

metrovelvet

Why is Islam sacrosanct? Why are they above criticism? It is Islam which which imposes it's values, and have everyone morally blackmailed.

murphaph

Human beings have used the (almost) unique features of the face to recognise one another since time immemorial. I have had numerous convesations with veiled muslim women and I dislike it because I haven't got a clue who I'm actually talking to. As has been pointed out, when 'western' women travel to 'muslim' countries they adopt the local customs, I don't see why it is so unreasonable for that to work in reverse. I couldn't care less what anyone wears in out in public but when it's a face to face (no pun intended) meeting then it's customary to know who one is talking to. I don't expect everyone to agree with me but ho-hum.

Zombrex

fly_agaric wrote:

I was trying to say that whatever the shifts of culture + time and how something taboo in one culture may not be in another some things are always more or less taboo than others. Is there not a fixed scale based on our bodies?

Are you asking if a "universal rudeness" exists amoung all cultures?

No not really. And even if it did, it would be a little arrogent of us to suppose it was in fact our standards that were the universal

fly_agaric wrote:

That exposing your breasts or your penis or whatever is always going to be a bigger "deal" than exposing your face.

Not in certain parts of Africa, where women commonly do not cover their breasts. Or parts of Asia where displaying an artifically errect penis (don't ask) is common and a sign of stature amoungs a tribe.

fly_agaric wrote:

So making your direct comparison between Muslim face and Christian breasts or Christian full nudity [i.e. Jack Straw asking a muslim woman if she'd peal back her veil would be like if he'd asked a non-muslim to show her breasts or strip] doesn't seem very fair to me.

That is probably because you aren't Muslim.

fly_agaric wrote:

Muslims (or some of them) may define the face as a taboo zone to be covered up but breasts must be even more taboo for them then rather than just like the face.

That doesn't make much sense.

What, does the woman have to show something, so they better pick the face rather than the breasts?

If I said to your mother "Show me your vigina" and she said no do you think she would change her mind if I think said "Oh, ok, just show me your breasts then, the vigina might be a bit too taboo"

fly_agaric wrote:

So if they were not insulted by what he did it is okay then?

Yes, of course. But you don't "test the waters" first and then go "few! she is ok with it". I mean I could ask 100 women on Grafton St to show me their boobs, I would imagine one or two (maybe the drunk ones) actually would, and not be offended. That doesn't mean society would actually like me doing this (I would imagine I would be arrested at some point, possibly before I saw any boobage).

Zombrex

Flukey wrote:

The turn of the century was in fact only just under 6 years ago, so that statement would not be true.

You clearly where not there at the Millienum Dome when the Queen lifted her skirt up .... ummmmmmmm ... saucy

Zombrex

Stekelly wrote:

Would you feel comfortable with some guy coming up to you with a motobike helmet on and having a conversation with you?

Yes, it happened to me today. My mate Paul never takes his helmet off when chatting to us. I really don't give a sh1t, I have enough real problems without worrying about this nonsense ("Oh Paul is sooo rude, he doesn't take off his helmet" .. i mean seriously, wtf)

Stekelly wrote:

It's common courtesy to take off the helmet and talk to someone.

Well when you see a Muslim woman wearing a motor cycle helmet make sure you tell her that ...

Zombrex

Stekelly wrote:

Womens breasts are seen as a sexual part of the body that have to be covered for reasons of decency as opposed to the face which is used to see, smell, hear, communicate , eat, drink etc.

Groan .... to a Muslim a womans hair and face is seen as a sexualised part of the body.

I mean I've already explained this. What part of that do you not get?

Stekelly wrote:

Something being "common" has nothing to do with forcing it upon anyone. Western women are free to cover up or go topless as they see fit.

No they aren't. If you don't believe me walk down Grafton St topless and see how far you get ...

Stekelly wrote:

Why should non muslim women be forced to wear muslim garbs when in muslim countries.

Why should African women be forced to cover their breasts when in Ireland?

Why can't I walk naked down O'Connell St?

Stekelly wrote:

If the goverment decide tomorow that we all have to wear a cross and rosary beads, should all non cristians/catholics be required to put them on when entering the country?

The government already requires that we dress as to not

"offend modesty or cause scandal or injure the morals of the community"

Our laws are exactly the same as most Middle Eastern countries. The only difference is our "morals of the community" are different than your average Muslim country.

Stekelly wrote:

Theres absolutely no sane reason to have to see a womans breasts to be able to hold a conversation with her.

There is absolutely no sane reason why you have to see a womans lips to be able to hold a converstation with her either.

You just want to be able to see her lips. I would imagine a lot of men would also quite like to see her breasts at the same time.

It might shock people to realise, but Muslim communities have managed to communicate with each other for hundreds of years.

Zombrex

aslantheslayer wrote:

If they want to wear thid in there own home fine.

*Groan* ... bangs head off wall! :rolleyes:

At home in private is where a Muslim woman DOESN'T wear her veil.

That is the whole point!

Look, you guys clearly don't have clue about the customs and beliefs of Muslims.

So before you get all high and mighty with this nonsense, how about you spend a bit of time bothering to learn about the tradition, why they wear the veil, and then you might understand it a teeny tiny bit better and be able to make intelligent contrabutions.

I mean why would you want to on purpose make a Muslim woman feel uncomfortable by asking her to do something you suspect she won't want to do. What do you achieve by doing that? You think your conversation will be easier after you have make her feel totally uncomfortable?

Zombrex

murphaph wrote:

I have had numerous convesations with veiled muslim women and I dislike it because I haven't got a clue who I'm actually talking to.

So....?

I didn't realise it was societies responsiblity to make you feel comfortable.

Can I sign up for that too?

Because I really didn't like the way the bus driver spoke to me today. Can I get a law changed to make him have to be nice to me? Or maybe the woman who gave me my change in Tescos. It is customary to smile when someone says good bye to you and she really didn't put a lot of effort into it. Is their any way I can get her deported?

Guy:Incognito

Wicknight wrote:

Yes, it happened to me today. My mate Paul never takes his helmet off when chatting to us. I really don't give a sh1t, I have enough real problems without worrying about this nonsense ("Oh Paul is sooo rude, he doesn't take off his helmet" .. i mean seriously, wtf)...

Are you acting dumb just to make points here? We're not talking about your mates, were talking about strangers. We all do a lot of stuff with our mates that would not be appropriate with complete strangers.

Guy:Incognito

Wicknight wrote:

No they aren't. If you don't believe me walk down Grafton St topless and see how far you get ... .

Seriously, you have to be flameing people. YOU brought up the situation of a western woman going topless IN AFRICA, which I replied to. My god I really have to explain your own posts to you dont I?. Ok, YOU said that western women in certain parts of africa commonly go topless in their tribes and that western women dotn do this when they go there. Where did I say women are free to walk down grafton street topless?
Why should African women be forced to cover their breasts when in Ireland
Just to be pedantic for a min. Women in African cities dont walk around topless, your talking about people in tribes who are not likely to be hopping on a plane to Ireland. Going topless also isnt something they are made do for their religon, its a choice. I assume its done for proctical reasons rather than their god saying "thou shalt have your tits hanging out so I can see them all the time"

Wicknight wrote:

There is absolutely no sane reason why you have to see a womans lips to be able to hold a converstation with her either..

It can actually be quite important to see someones face to determine what their going on about and work out things like if they are lieing.etc. It can also be helpfull for deaf people.

wes

Last I checked we lived in the "free world". One would assume in the "free world" then people get to wear what they want. If the "free world" wishes to become more like the "unfree world" then that is indeed a sad day for us all. Way I see making people wear what you want them to wear makes you as bad as the taliban.

Having said that asking politely is different which was Jack Straws point is a little different, but I can still see it being as insulting to Muslim women. Have we become so intolerant that we can't see a alternate point of view? I would never ask a Woman to cover up if what she was wearing distracting me (if I was some kind of prude) from talking to her as that would be rude, but is okay to ask a Muslim woman to take something off?!?

Also people seem to think Muslims are up in arms about this? See the only place I have seen the words angry mentioned has been by the press. At best all the peoples comments were heated at best and hardly angry. Just the press trying to make Muslims look angry and intolerant, when even within the Muslim community we disagree with the veil ourselves, but of course people on this board and elsewhere wish to point out how intolerant Muslims are when in this case there is very little to show that.

Zombrex

Stekelly wrote:

Are you acting dumb just to make points here? We're not talking about your mates, were talking about strangers. We all do a lot of stuff with our mates that would not be appropriate with complete strangers.

Groan ... :rolleyes:

It doesn't matter.

You are arguing is that it is too difficult and arkward to understand someone if you cannot view their mouth and lips. Therefore Muslim women should really take off the veil so you can understand them better.

That is clearly nonsense. It is perfectly possible to understand someone wearing an entire motor bike helmet, it is perfectly possible to understand someone wearing a veil. Knowing them or not makes no difference to this.

Sesshoumaru

wes wrote:

Last I checked we lived in the "free world". One would assume in the "free world" then people get to wear what they want. If the "free world" wishes to become more like the "unfree world" then that is indeed a sad day for us all. Way I see making people wear what you want them to wear makes you as bad as the taliban.

Having said that asking politely is different which was Jack Straws point is a little different, but I can still see it being as insulting to Muslim women. Have we become so intolerant that we can't see a alternate point of view? I would never ask a Woman to cover up if what she was wearing distracting me (if I was some kind of prude) from talking to her as that would be rude, but is okay to ask a Muslim woman to take something off?!?

Also people seem to think Muslims are up in arms about this? See the only place I have seen the words angry mentioned has been by the press. At best all the peoples comments were heated at best and hardly angry. Just the press trying to make Muslims look angry and intolerant, when even within the Muslim community we disagree with the veil ourselves, but of course people on this board and elsewhere wish to point out how intolerant Muslims are when in this case there is very little to show that.

Yes free to cover their faces, free to live in their own communities, free to never integrate, free to become a parallel community, free to live under their laws not ours. When do we stop replacing our culture with theirs? But to answer your question, no people don't get to wear what they want. Even wk accepts we have standards in Europe which we expect people to conform to. One of those being not walking around naked on Grafton Street or for instance not to walk around with your face covered. Is that so difficult a request? "Please don't cover your face when you come to live in our country, its considered rude"? Maybe they could take the time to learn something of our history as well and perhaps take the time to learn our language. Or is that asking too much?

Sesshoumaru

Wicknight wrote:

*Groan* ... bangs head off wall! :rolleyes:

At home in private is where a Muslim woman DOESN'T wear her veil.

That is the whole point!

Look, you guys clearly don't have clue about the customs and beliefs of Muslims.

So before you get all high and mighty with this nonsense, how about you spend a bit of time bothering to learn about the tradition, why they wear the veil, and then you might understand it a teeny tiny bit better and be able to make intelligent contrabutions.

I mean why would you want to on purpose make a Muslim woman feel uncomfortable by asking her to do something you suspect she won't want to do. What do you achieve by doing that? You think your conversation will be easier after you have make her feel totally uncomfortable?

Typical! Our culture must always submit before Islam. How about turning that arguement around? Why would they want to make us feel uncomfortable? They are living in our country. Its up to them to make the effort to integrate seamlessly. If you went to live in another country would you proceed to lecture the locals on what you should and shouldn't be allowed to do? If you went into another persons home and they asked you to remove your shoes, would you not do it out of courtesy even if you didn't do it in your own home?

Zombrex

Stekelly wrote:

Seriously, you have to be flameing people. YOU brought up the situation of a western woman going topless IN AFRICA, which I replied to.

Last time I check Muslim women were free to not wear the vail in Ireland, so your point now makes even less sense .. well done :rolleyes:

Stekelly wrote:

Why should African women be forced to cover their breasts when in Ireland

I don't know, but they are. And I would imagine you will have an up hill struggle if you want to convince Irish society that being topless in public is a perfectly acceptable.

I'm not arguing that Irish or Middle Eastern laws against indecent exposure are correct/right or justified. That isn't the point.

The point is that it is the hight of hypocracy for us to claim that our standards of what is and what isn't indecent exposure are correct and the Muslims are just being silly.

To a Muslim woman who takes this stuff seriously (and lots don't btw) removing her veil in public is indecent exposure, just like to an Irish woman removing her top in public is indecent exposure.

Telling her that that is just silly or not how we do it (when in Rome :rolleyes), or that it is causing you discomfort (you can't tell if she is lying or not!) is absurd.

You aren't going to make her feel any less naked by doing so

Why would you even want to do that in the first place?

Why would you want to put a Muslim woman in an uncomfortable and embarrasing position just so you can see her face. It is unnecessary and rather cruel to be honest. Do we in the west just get off embrassing Muslim women in public? Is that the new "clash of civilisations" fad?

Stekelly wrote:

Women in African cities dont walk around topless, your talking about people in tribes who are not likely to be hopping on a plane to Ireland.

And...?

The point was to highlight that the areas we consider important to be constantly covered (the breasts) are not considered that important in other countrys. But that doesn't change the fact that we still hold these important, even if we are in a country where no one else does. Even if an Irish woman was surrounded by African women who were topless I seriously doubt she not feel uncomfortable going topless in public as well.

Simply telling a Muslim woman that she is in Ireland now and we do things differently isn't going to make that Muslim woman anyless uncomfortable about taking off her veil.

So the question is do you want to make these Muslim women uncomfortable?

Stekelly wrote:

It can actually be quite important to see someones face to determine what their going on about and work out things like if they are lieing.etc.

If they are lying?? What??

Are you interogating Muslim women now?

You seem to be scraping the barrel to find a justifiable reason for asking a Muslim woman to do this.

But maybe I'm wrong, maybe if you explain to her that you want to make sure she is not lying to you I'm sure she will see the reason in your argument :rolleyes:

mike65

Wicknight if a westerner goes to Saudi they have to abide by thier cultural rules outside thier own home why should'nt the same apply in the secular west?

You are arguing is that it is too difficult and arkward to understand someone if you cannot view their mouth and lips. Therefore Muslim women should really take off the veil so you can understand them better.

That is clearly nonsense. It is perfectly possible to understand someone wearing an entire motor bike helmet, it is perfectly possible to understand someone wearing a veil. Knowing them or not makes no difference to this.

:rolleyes: In a bank your are requested to take your helmet off for a good reason, I would much prefere to chat to a biker without his helmet on even if I knew him. Guess what? They'd do as I request as a courtesy.

Mike.