Jack Straw and the Muslims!

Zombrex · 07-10-2006 11:57am

Sesshoumaru wrote:

Typical! Our culture must always submit before Islam.

"our culture must submit" ... wtf are you talking about. No one is asking you do to anything

Sesshoumaru wrote:

Why would they want to make us feel uncomfortable?

They aren't. No one is asking you to get naked, and I hope to God they never do.

You don't have to do anything. Our culture doesn't change at all.

Sesshoumaru wrote:

Its up to them to make the effort to integrate seamlessly.

Yes and any one from Mayo living in Dublin must start supporting the Dubs.

Don't be silly. You want a woman to just abandon their entire religion because you get upset when you have to talk to a Muslim woman who is wearing a veil? Don't be absurd

Sesshoumaru wrote:

If you went to live in another country would you proceed to lecture the locals on what you should and shouldn't be allowed to do?

Who is lecturing you? Who is asking you to do ANYTHING?

Sesshoumaru wrote:

If you went into another persons home and they asked you to remove your shoes, would you not do it out of courtesy even if you didn't do it in your own home?

I would, but I wouldn't remove my pants, and I would be rather cross that they asked.

Zombrex · 07-10-2006 12:05pm

mike65 wrote:

Wicknight if a westerner goes to Saudi they have to abide by thier cultural rules outside thier own home why should'nt the same apply in the secular west?

They do, last time I checked.

A Muslim woman would be breaking the law if she went running down grafton st topless, just as an Irish woman would be. I am unaware of any clause stating that a foregin woman can break our public codes of deciency. This is despite the fact that Middle Eastern countries often allow this.

mike65 wrote:

In a bank your are requested to take your helmet off for a good reason

Yes, it is security. It isn't because the bank teller cannot understand your lip movements

mike65 wrote:

Guess what? They'd do as I request as a courtesy.

And would they also take off their pants and trousers if you asked them?

The point people seem mind boggling unable to grasp is that everyone has some areas of the body they have no problem exposing in public (feet for example), and some areas they have a big problem exposing in public (breasts for example). The reasons for this are long and complicated, mostly society and religion.

It is pointless to saying that in Ireland a biker would be happy to take off his helmet, becuase in Ireland a biker has no problem exposing his face in the first place Or his feet, or his hands, or is arms etc. You are not comparing like to like.

But you can quite quickly get to a part of his body that he would not be very happy exposing in public, and no one in Irish society would ask him to what ever the reason.

Why people seem completely unable to understand this from the Muslim woman's point of view is beyond me! If she feels naked by removing her veil, why in Gods name would you expect her to do so? I wouldn't expect any Irish woman to have to get topless just because.

Its like people are saying how dare anyone have different standards to us? We are correct, everyone else is wrong. If we don't think the face is exposure they have no right to think it is either. Its ridiculous.

Memnoch · 07-10-2006 12:07pm

It doesn't matter what the saudi's do.

If you claim to be secular then you have to be willing to tolerate and accept other religions and cultures. If westerners are required to follow their rules in Saudi clearly it's not a secular country.

But Ireland is... or so we claim

mike65 · 07-10-2006 12:13pm

Don't think Ireland can make a firm claim to be secular, the Church of Romes influence is still too strong (schooling/health care etc).

Mike.

punky · 07-10-2006 12:21pm

As far as I'm aware, there's no basis for the full veil covering the entire face but the eyes in the Koran. It's a cultural phenomenon from the middle east.

Although only a minority of muslim women wear them, I'd imagine that it's not really their choice at all. It's an expectation of their husband.

I'm all for multi-culturalism but you have to draw the line somewhere. You have to say no to female genital mutilation, to teaching creationism in schools and to wearing burqas. What's needed is strong moderate muslim voices to stand up to this archaic and oppressive tradition.

Sesshoumaru · 07-10-2006 12:24pm

Memnoch wrote:

It doesn't matter what the saudi's do.

If you claim to be secular then you have to be willing to tolerate and accept other religions and cultures. If westerners are required to follow their rules in Saudi clearly it's not a secular country.

But Ireland is... or so we claim

How long will Ireland remain secular? Muslims will want their own "faith schools". They will want their mosques built. All places where young children will be brainwashed into Islam. When they grow up they won't be voting in secular laws. It will be sharia law they will be demanding.

If you were truly secular you would be demanding an end to faith based schools. All religous symbols on those below 18 years of age should be banned. People can make up their mind on religion when they have the mental faculties to do so. I mean if you tell a child the presents at christmas come from some jolly fat bloke that lives in the north pole they will believe you. Now just think what those girls who "choose" to wear the ninja mask were told when they were young? Why should we tolerate these inferior cultures in our country? We should be demanding they stop! or just simply go back home to pakistan, saudi arabia, iran or wherever they feel comfortable. TBH I really couldn't give a damn what they do in their own sandpit, just not in Europe.

Sesshoumaru · 07-10-2006 12:39pm

Wicknight wrote:

"our culture must submit" ... wtf are you talking about. No one is asking you do to anything

They aren't. No one is asking you to get naked, and I hope to God they never do.

You don't have to do anything. Our culture doesn't change at all.

Yes and any one from Mayo living in Dublin must start supporting the Dubs.

Don't be silly. You want a woman to just abandon their entire religion because you get upset when you have to talk to a Muslim woman who is wearing a veil? Don't be absurd

Who is lecturing you? Who is asking you to do ANYTHING?

I would, but I wouldn't remove my pants, and I would be rather cross that they asked.

What I gather from your posts is that you are quite happy for everyone to live in their own seperate communities because it wrongs for us to ask anyone to change. Presumably because you believe that rubbish that all cultures are equal? You should go live in suburbs of Paris for a while. Thats the future all of Europe has to look forward to if we follow your reasoning.

Darragh29 · 07-10-2006 2:31pm

Flukey wrote:

There is a big difference there. In the muslim countries it is a requirement, as you say yourself, that they wear it, and the reporter wears it. It is not a requirement here that they don't wear it, as you say. So they are free to wear it if they want to. A normal and proper conversation can be had when someone is wearing one, so there is no need to remove it. OK, they do look a bit sinister when wearing one, but they do carry on a day to day life, including conducting conversations, while doing so.

It is always funny in these situations, that many of the people that complain about women being covered up and not being allowed to drink, are the same ones that will complain about young women on the streets half-dressed and totally drunk. I am sure many parents in Ireland would be happy to have their daughters safe at home tonight, rather than out on the streets in such a state. There are pros and cons to all these situations.

Can't see the point you are trying to make at all here. Muslins want it every way now, they impose rules with regard to dress amongst many other things, upon foreigners who happen to visit their own country and I've no problem with this, as I said, when in Rome, do as the Romans do. The same Muslims can't tolerate the sensitivities that might exist in other western countries that they visit. It's not like they are being told not to wear a headscarf or veil at all, a rule which would be identical in effect to the rules they impose upon foreigners who visit their own countries. In this instance, they are being politely asked and not demanded to respect, for what appears to be a perfectly good and logical reason, the wishes of a politician who is just trying to help them. I'm really starting to get sick of listening to the constant arguments about Muslims and their never ending sensitivities. I'm starting to feel like I'm living in a Muslim country to be honest...

Sesshoumaru · 07-10-2006 3:05pm

Darragh29 wrote:

Can't see the point you are trying to make at all here. Muslins want it every way now, they impose rules with regard to dress amongst many other things, upon foreigners who happen to visit their own country and I've no problem with this, as I said, when in Rome, do as the Romans do. The same Muslims can't tolerate the sensitivities that might exist in other western countries that they visit. It's not like they are being told not to wear a headscarf or veil at all, a rule which would be identical in effect to the rules they impose upon foreigners who visit their own countries. In this instance, they are being politely asked and not demanded to respect, for what appears to be a perfectly good and logical reason, the wishes of a politician who is just trying to help them. I'm really starting to get sick of listening to the constant arguments about Muslims and their never ending sensitivities. I'm starting to feel like I'm living in a Muslim country to be honest...

Here have a read of this:

http://www.k9magazine.com/viewarticle.php?sid=15&aid=1573&vid=0&npage=

Just another example of how we are expected to bend over backwards to accomadate muslims. Its a bloody disgrace.

A private hire taxi driver left a blind woman stranded after he refused to allow her guide god into his cab as it offended his religious beliefs.

Abdul Rasheed Majekodumni of west London was booked to take Mrs Jane Vernon to her home in Hammersmith after she had appeared on the BBC's Newsnight programme.

Mrs Vernon, who is the legal officer for the Royal National Institute for the Blind (RNIB) said "This experience was very upsetting. I was tired and cold and just wanted to get home but this driver made me feel like I was a second-class citizen, like I didn't count at all."

The BBC had a contract with private hire firm, called Niven's and Co.

Mrs Vernon contacted the cab company to register a complaint where she was told that she should have been more sensitive to other people's culture. She has not been offered an apology.

fly_agaric · 07-10-2006 3:33pm

Wicknight wrote:

Are you asking if a "universal rudeness" exists amoung all cultures?

I was saying that I thought there may be a hierarchy of these taboos bound up with sex/attraction and the body which is a "human" thing rather than a "cultural" thing.
Where is the society where the women wear these cowls on their faces and bare their breasts or go naked at the same time?

So you saying asking a muslim woman to remove the veil is exactly like asking some non-muslim (or a even a non-veil-wearing muslim perhaps) to strip off is not fair. Dramatic but not fair. I understand what you are trying to do (trying to make people understand how big an insult it might be through an exaggerated example).

Wicknight wrote:

No not really. And even if it did, it would be a little arrogant of us to suppose it was in fact our standards that were the universal

I haven't done that. I said I don't think people are just picking and choosing these restrictions randomly on the basis of culture, religion or whatever as you imply so they are all interchangeable (wearing a veil is exactly like covering your breasts/penis etc).

And this is without getting into what people covering up their face in this way signifies. Pretense, masks, scary, sneaky, evil, up to no good etc etc etc. As I said, I don't think I'm being specific to our culture there either.
But then if women are not really proper "people" at all who can have a public persona they can hide with a mask for some reason but are actually goods controlled by one man or another I suppose this symbolism doesn't matter too much in their case.

Going back to "universal standards", there has to be some mutual give and take on these issues if people are going to get along well rather than just saying "they've" got to do this "our" way or else "we've" got to adjust to suit "them" or else we're teh evil ones.

I wouldn't have done what Jack Straw did as I'm too polite and too shy, but I don't think he needs to be hung drawn and quartered for it either now he's decided to tell the world about it (God alone knows why?).

But hey, whatever gets the meeja off eh?

Wicknight wrote:

Not in certain parts of Africa, where women commonly do not cover their breasts. Or parts of Asia where displaying an artifically errect penis (don't ask) is common and a sign of stature amoungs a tribe.

They don't have most of these body taboos. Good for them.
Do any of them cover up their nasty lips while they wave their willies in the air?

Wicknight wrote:

If I said to your mother "Show me your vagina" and she said no do you think she would change her mind if I think said "Oh, ok, just show me your breasts then, the vagina might be a bit too taboo"

Ha. No she wouldn't change her mind. She'd be upset and angry about both but she'd be more upset at the latter I think.

oscarBravo · 07-10-2006 3:51pm

The last time I looked, this thread was only halfway through the first page. I wander off for a few short hours, and all hell breaks loose.

Everybody: calm down. In particular:

Stekelly wrote:

Are you acting dumb just to make points here?

and

Stekelly wrote:

Seriously, you have to be flameing people.

Wicknight, you could do with taking a chill pill also.

My own take on the topic: I never cease to be amazed at the lengths to which certain members of any society or culture will go in order to get offended about something.

Sand · 07-10-2006 4:56pm

Much ado about nothing. If Jack Straw feels more comftable talking to a person face to face - like most people, even those assailing him - then he has every right to ask the other person to remove the sunglasses, balaclava, helmet, ski mask or yes, even veil. Hes not holding a gun to their head. The other person has every right to say, no Id rather not.

The only point is that the majority of communication is non-verbal, and most people find concealment of the face to be....non-conducive to communication. That is exactly why the veil is used - to prevent non verbal communication between women and men, either to protect women from vulgarity or to prevent the pollution of mens minds depending on who you ask.

Zombrex · 07-10-2006 5:18pm

fly_agaric wrote:

So you saying asking a muslim woman to remove the veil is exactly like asking some non-muslim (or a even a non-veil-wearing muslim perhaps) to strip off is not fair. Dramatic but not fair.

Why?

If the end result is the same (an upset embrassed woman) what is the difference?

The whole argument for this is that it is silly for a Muslim woman to get upset for exposing her face. But that isn't our decision to make. We aren't Muslims, and just because we think it is nonsense doesn't change the fact that some Muslim women take it quite seriously.

In reality it is equally nonsense to make women cover up their breasts, as demonstrated by the fact that a lot of cultures around the world don't make women do this. But if we had someone from one of those cultures explain to an Irish woman why it is nonsense that isn't going to make the Irish woman less embarrased or upset by going topless.

A societies standards of embrassment can't be just turned off with a switch. I know people, men and women, who don't even like getting naked in swimming pool changing rooms. Explaining to them that this is clearly nonsense doesn't change that fact.

The tone of this thread is basically saying we don't care if some Muslim women feel exposed/embrassed/ashamed if they expose their face under a veil, because Irish women don't and that is the standard we are going to apply to all cultures. That argument is the hight of arrogance and ignorance, lacking in even the most basic compassion for the feelings and sensibilities of others.

Its like if we don't even view Muslim woman as real people.

fly_agaric wrote:

I said I don't think people are just picking and choosing these restrictions randomly on the basis of culture, religion or whatever as you imply so they are all interchangeable (wearing a veil is exactly like covering your breasts/penis etc).

They aren't the same, but the effect is. As you said, I am attempting to get people to put themselves in the shoes of the women themselves.

The biggest problem I see here is that people in Ireland just dismiss this as silly nonsense. Why the hell wouldn't a Muslim woman mind showing her hair, irish women do that all the time and never make a fuss.

The point is just because we don't think it is a big deal doesn't mean it isn't a big deal. How much of a big deal it is is decided by the woman herself, not by us. We can't force her to not thing it is a big deal, and I'm a little bewildered as to why people here would even consider that as an option.

fly_agaric wrote:

But then if women are not really proper "people" at all who can have a public persona they can hide with a mask for some reason but are actually goods controlled by one man or another I suppose this symbolism doesn't matter too much in their case.

I'm not sure what you mean? Are you saying that Muslim women only wear the veil because the Muslim men make them (since they own them?)

This isn't true, and again it is applying our standards to a different culture. We figure that no woman would choose to cover her face, since no Irish woman would do that. So how is it possible that Muslim woman would choose to cover up like this. They must be being forced to do so.

But if you think about it Irish women cover their breasts largely out of choice, don't they. Why? Why do Irish women feel that exposing their breasts in public is unacceptable exposure? Is that because their father or husband make them do this? Do they oppress them into do this?

fly_agaric wrote:

Going back to "universal standards", there has to be some mutual give and take on these issues if people are going to get along well rather than just saying "they've" got to do this "our" way or else "we've" got to adjust to suit "them" or else we're teh evil ones.

Agreed. But I fail to see how the wests position on this is give and take. We are basically saying that Muslim women should expose a part of their body that some are not at all happy doing so just so we can feel a tiny bit more comfortable.

So we want to make Muslims very uncomfortable and us a bit more comfortable. Because i seriously doubt that discomfort someone feels talking to a Muslim woman (I have never felt any discomfort) is on par with the discomfort a commited Muslim would feel being expect to expose herself in public.

TBH the response on this thread from some (not you fly) just seem like xenophobic saber rattling. If they want to come to our country they better all act like us! It is totally unreasonable demands motivated by ignorance and fear rather than a genuine desire to help our two cultures integrate.

People have posted that they would find it easier to communicate with a Muslim woman if she just took off the veil. They don't seem to give a sh*t if such an action greatly upset the woman, or considered that such embrassement and shame would make converastion 100 times harder. How is it easier to communicate with a visably upset Muslim woman who is desperately trying to cover up her hair and her face with her hands while being mortified that people are viewing her like this in public.

I find it amazing that people seem to take things like this as insults towards themselves and our culture. This is exactly what we give out about the Muslim world doing, getting upset because we are just doing our thing.

fly_agaric wrote:

They don't have most of these body taboos. Good for them.

I agree. I would love to be able to walk around naked with out being embrassed or you know arrested.

fly_agaric wrote:

Ha. No she wouldn't change her mind. She'd be upset and angry about both but she'd be more upset at the latter I think.

Former surely

Zombrex · 07-10-2006 5:23pm

Darragh29 wrote:

Can't see the point you are trying to make at all here. Muslins want it every way now, they impose rules with regard to dress amongst many other things, upon foreigners who happen to visit their own country and I've no problem with this, as I said, when in Rome, do as the Romans do.

Please point out the indecency law, or public exposure law, that a Muslim woman breaks by wearing a veil in Ireland?

The Irish state imposes rules on decent acceptable dress based on the standards of the community at the time.

Muslim states impose rules on decent acceptable dress based on the stanards of the communities at the time.

We have pretty much the exact same laws. Except that a lot of Muslim countries don't apply these rules to foreigners, where as we apply all our rules to native and foeringers too.

There is no law or requirement in Ireland that women expose themselves to a certain degree :rolleyes:

fly_agaric · 07-10-2006 8:11pm

Wicknight wrote:

Why?

If the end result is the same (an upset embarassed woman) what is the difference?

I said why I didn't think it was fair (why I don't like your comparison) but you are arguing me around to your point of view somewhat.

Wicknight wrote:

I'm not sure what you mean? Are you saying that Muslim women only wear the veil because the Muslim men make them (since they own them?)

This isn't true, and again it is applying our standards to a different culture. We figure that no woman would choose to cover her face, since no Irish woman would do that. So how is it possible that Muslim woman would choose to cover up like this. They must be being forced to do so.

But if you think about it Irish women cover their breasts largely out of choice, don't they. Why? Why do Irish women feel that exposing their breasts in public is unacceptable exposure? Is that because their father or husband make them do this? Do they oppress them into do this?

No. I was just thinking about how the idea of people hiding their faces from others/masks etc may be a negative or creepy thing generally (not specific to any one culture???).
So then I was wondering about how that would apply to muslim/arab culture and the veiling of women. Then it occurred to me that this custom comes out of a past where women were treated to an extent as property rather than as people and so the creepy associations that go with the faceless "person" hiding behind a mask may not have applied as much.

Of course, all this is silly overanalysis and waffle that has nothing to do with why muslim women wear it today in the UK.
I don't think they men own them now. I don't think the majority of them are being ordered to veil-up anyway and if some are there is very little anyone can do about that.

Wicknight wrote:

Agreed. But I fail to see how the wests position on this is give and take. We are basically saying that Muslim women should expose a part of their body that some are not at all happy doing so just so we can feel a tiny bit more comfortable.

I don't know if that's "the Wests" position.
Seems like the UK has accomodated muslim dress and the headscarf into everyday life and work easily but when it comes to altering things to suit women who want to be veiled in public almost 100% of the time there are obviously going to be more difficulties. You run up against more things than Jack Straw's or anyone elses discomfort and unease at not having a face to talk to vs the women's embarassment if they are asked, or worse, told to take off the veil - i.e. if all adjustments are to be made by "us" to accomodate "them" to prevent embarassment it would be more than just a matter of swallowing some discomfort and getting on with it.
You seem to maximise the upset having to take off the veil will cause a devout muslim woman (maybe you are right about this, dont know - as you said before I'm not a muslim or devout or a woman) and then downplay any issues caused by its presence.

Wicknight wrote:

This is exactly what we give out about the Muslim world doing, getting upset because we are just doing our thing.

I would hope any upset is confined to bítching on this bbs or grumbling among friends tbh. I hope nobody stages a drop-that-veil protest, burns burkhas or otherwise gets stroppy over it.

Wicknight wrote:

Former surely

Yep. My mistake (shiver).

Wicknight wrote:

TBH the response on this thread from some (not you fly) just seem like xenophobic saber rattling. If they want to come to our country they better all act like us! It is totally unreasonable demands motivated by ignorance and fear rather than a genuine desire to help our two cultures integrate.

I may be a "xenophobe" because of what I think about immigration (here anyway) (maybe you remember getting angry with me about that a long while back?) but I think I can see that to make it work out as well as possible a balance has to be found.
Copying Saudi or other middle east countries + saying my way or the highway is definitely not the answer. Instead of true immigrants they just have guests and helpers in their country who are kept at arms length and have minimal impact on the host society, govt. etc so there is nothing to be learned from their example.

Zombrex · 08-10-2006 2:07am

fly_agaric wrote:

if all adjustments are to be made by "us" to accomodate "them" to prevent embarassment it would be more than just a matter of swallowing some discomfort and getting on with it.

How did this issue turn from one of Muslim veils to us makig all the adjustments to allow muslims to fit in?

I don't plan to make any adjustments to my life for a Muslim person. At all. They can f**k right off if they expect me to start chaning my life style to fit in with their religious pratice and code. I'm going to eat pork, I'm going to drink. I'm going to fornicate with women (chance would be a fine thing). I expect all Muslims living in Ireland to abide by our laws, and to respect our institutions such as the police and the government. I expect all Muslims in Ireland to treat other Irish people, and fellow Muslims including women, with the high level of respect that a modern democractic secular country demands.

But I don't expect them to abandon who they are. I'm not going to expect that a Muslim woman should have to unveil to talk to me. If she doesn't wish to do so that is fine with me, I see absolutely no problem talking ot a Muslim woman wearing a veil. I respect her feelings on the matter, and I respect her religous beliefs. I see no need to upset her at all, and am bewildered at why people here seem to be jumping at the change to humilate Muslim women.

The excuses given here about why that might be a problem (you have to be able to tell if she is lying? wtf??) are in no way justification for making a person (Muslim or otherwise) put themselves in a position of extreme embrassement or insult to their beliefs and culture just for our mild discomfortment at the new and unusual.

I would not treat an Irish person this way, why would I treat a Muslim person this way. Would people here expect a burn victim to wear a sheet over their head to prevent our discomfort at having to view their face?

Guy:Incognito · 08-10-2006 2:57am

Wicknight wrote:

I don't know, but they are. And I would imagine you will have an up hill struggle if you want to convince Irish society that being topless in public is a perfectly acceptable.

That was part of your post I forgot to put qoutes on.

Guy:Incognito · 08-10-2006 3:02am

Wicknight wrote:

You seem to be scraping the barrel to find a justifiable reason for asking a Muslim woman to do this.

But maybe I'm wrong, maybe if you explain to her that you want to make sure she is not lying to you I'm sure she will see the reason in your argument :rolleyes:

They dont need to justify their reasons behind forcing westerb women to adhear to their dress code so why cant we demand they remove their head dresss? Western countries wouldnt ghet away with it, they'd be called racist and accused of scaremongering.Whats the difference?.

Victor · 08-10-2006 7:04am

To those who wonder about burka wearing women in banks. Do you honestly think these womena re allowed go to banks (by themselves)?

Conar · 08-10-2006 7:42am

b3t4 wrote:

Not exactly similar but has anyone miss read the tone or expression of a text message simply because the person isn't physically present? I know I have.

An excellent point, especially given that a lot of these Muslim women may have accents. (I know a lot are native english but not all)
I would have a very difficult time trying to make out what kind of mood someone was in if they were speaking in broken english and hiding behind a headscarf.
If they're going to be hidden away like that why don't they just phone rather than calling in to speak in person. Isn't the whole point of speaking in person that you can see their face and reactions.

****EDIT****
Just adding a quick point.
There was a lot of talk about banning hoodies in the UK recently, I don't remember there being as much of a response from the public as this seems to be causing.

Conar · 08-10-2006 8:03am

Wicknight I've been reading a lot of your posts and I'm not 100% sure if you actually believe what you are saying or if you just felt like arguing.

As I see it a muslim woman living in a western country is going to have to take of her veil from time to time.
She will need to do so for passport photo's and or use of her passport, going to the dentist, I'm sure there are more but I'm tired so I'll leave it there.
At the end of the day, we are not forcing them to take up a western religion, nor are we forcing them to denounce their god.
We are simply asking them to take of their headgear from time to time when someone wants to speak to them in a more personal matter.
If these people are really so uptight that they can't accept a simple request like that being put to them then perhaps they are not the kind of people we would want in our countries.
I mean all they have to do is politely say no.

RedPlanet · 08-10-2006 12:11pm

I think people's reactions to this is bizarre.
You'd think in a society that considers itself "free" wouldn't have such a bug up there arse regarding someone whom chooses to wear an article of clothing that partially covers their face.
Be that as it may, perhaps those posters, would benefit from lobbying their government to create a new law stipulating that:
"It is an offense for a woman, or man to wear articles of clothing that cover most of the face."
Or do those posters just want to single out people of the Islamic faith?
But that would probably be shot down as religious persecution and rightly so.

Zombrex · 08-10-2006 1:19pm

Stekelly wrote:

They dont need to justify their reasons behind forcing westerb women to adhear to their dress code so why cant we demand they remove their head dresss?

Because we are suppose to care about civil liberty and personal freedoms. Apparently. Obviously we don't really give a sh*t about these things.

[EDIT]
By the way, and this seems to be a factor a lot of people are strangly forgetting, we have a lot of public decency laws in this country (4 different acts dealing with the issue, some dating to the late 19th century), just like the Middle East.

We do legally force people to dress to a specific standard set by the public sensibilities of the community, just like in the Middle East.

In Ireland Muslim women pass this standard, with flying colours. They break no public decency law in this country.

You can argue that the public decency laws in Middle Eastern countries are unreasonable. I would totally agree with you. But it is nonsense to suggest that they have these laws and we don't. Or that they enforce their laws upon us when we enter the country and we don't enforce our laws on them when they come here. We do, they just pass with flying colours.
[/EDIT]

Zombrex · 08-10-2006 1:26pm

Conar wrote:

Wicknight I've been reading a lot of your posts and I'm not 100% sure if you actually believe what you are saying or if you just felt like arguing.

Funny, I was thinking the same things about the other posts here.

I find it hard to believe that people are getting that worked up about not being able to see the face of a Muslim woman to the point where it is suggested we force women with legal measures to remove their veil.

Despite my view to give the benefit of the doubt I can't help but view this as little more than anti-Muslim saber rattling. The very fact that people seem to be completely incapable of understanding why a Muslim woman would feel embrassed or uncomfortable exposing her hair or face, instead dismissing it as simply nonsense ("uptight") or some kind of attempt by Muslims to change our society, only strengthens this view.

I mean its not a hard concept to grasp.

Some Muslim women feel very uncomfortable and embrassed exposing certain parts of their skin in public.

Some Irish women feel very uncomfortable and embrassed exposing certain parts of their skin in public.

Whats the difference? You seem to be saying that it is perfectly fine for an Irish woman to fell this way, but if a Muslim feels this way that is just silly religous nonsense, and she should get over it.

You wouldn't want to put an Irish woman in that position, a positon of embrassement and shame. Why are you falling over yourself to put a Muslim woman in that position? A Muslim women not people too?

Conar wrote:

As I see it a muslim woman living in a western country is going to have to take of her veil from time to time.

She does take off her veil all the time. Just like you take off your trousers all the time (I would imagine).

Conar wrote:

At the end of the day, we are not forcing them to take up a western religion, nor are we forcing them to denounce their god.

I should hope not.

Conar wrote:

We are simply asking them to take of their headgear from time to time when someone wants to speak to them in a more personal matter.

And I'm explaining to you that that is not an acceptable request to make, any more than asking an Irish woman to show her breasts is an acceptable request.

Just becauase you take off your trousers for hours on end during the day doesn't mean it is acceptable for me to ask you to remove your trouser when I am talking to you.

Just because an Irish woman might show you her bare foot doesn't mean she will show you her breasts or vigina.

Conar wrote:

If these people are really so uptight that they can't accept a simple request

Would you define a woman who doesn't flash her breasts for you in the pub as "uptight"?

Conar wrote:

I mean all they have to do is politely say no.

Again, do you think if you asked a woman in the pub to flash her breasts at you she would "politely say no". Or would she say "f**k off you pervert" and then her boyfriend would smack you one?

wes · 08-10-2006 2:49pm

Stekelly wrote:

They dont need to justify their reasons behind forcing westerb women to adhear to their dress code so why cant we demand they remove their head dresss? Western countries wouldnt ghet away with it, they'd be called racist and accused of scaremongering.Whats the difference?.

So we should be just as bad as them, that justifies it then. Those other guys are doing that so we can too. Lets toss out our values and be as bad as everyone else. Do things our way or else!!!!

Conar · 08-10-2006 10:25pm

I understand where the pro-Burka side are coming from to an extent, but I think the comparison to asking to see a woman’s tits or vagina or a mans dick is taking it too far.
I am not heartless and would not like to go around upsetting people unnecessarily but I don't see why people get so enraged when we discuss our views of the Muslim faith or the goings on of the Muslims themselves.

I am a life long atheist so I also have issues with Catholicism which I have voiced on many an occasion and I never get the same level of argument back when I express some of those views.

I have seen a number of television interviews where women that did not originally wear the burka had decided to do so from then on, but I got no impression from them that they now regarded their face as some kind of sexual part which needed to be hidden, nor did they appear to regret the days where their face was on show.

I'm caught in 2 minds over this issue.
I wouldn't want to upset people just because they are different to what I am used to.
On the other hand I am sick of religion being an excuse for people to do things that other people would not be able to do.
I think that people should be able to practice whatever religion they like as long as it does not affect others around them. This I feel affects people.

Wicknight if you were to hold a job interview and a woman arrived in her full headgear etc I take it from your comments that you would not discriminate against her in any way.
Now, if I a simple Irish man turned up for an interview in a ninja outfit (not trying to be offensive, please bear with me here) would you discriminate against me for it?
I think you would.
If I was an African tribesman and I came for a job interview naked would you discriminate against me. I think you would.
If I was an Arab man with strict Islamic views similar to those of the Taliban (I'm perfectly aware that most Muslims do not share these views) and you had a number of women working with you would you hire me? I should hope not.
If I went to a part of Africa where they expected (not forced) me to walk around naked, then I think I would do so....or else not visit/live there.

So when you see people disagreeing with your views on how we should treat people, do not assume that we are simply being ignorant or that we just don't like people that look different, maybe we simply don't agree with them in some of their customs.
At the end of the day, we are Irish people, governed buy an Irish electorate, ruled by OUR Irish constitution. And we, yes WE should have the right to say what flies in our country.

I do not have any problem what so ever with these Burka's:
http://www.americansforunfpa.org/atf/cf/%7B867FAB06-64CA-4EBC-9A7A-D57C957C8B6F%7D/BURKA%20MOM.JPG

It’s these ones that I think people find silly and wouldn't want to see as part of our society:
http://www.frhavn-gym.dk/opslag/Burka-a7.jpg

These however I would gladly support a law enforcing women to wear them:
http://www.rapstation.com/images/itr_ftw_lil_kim_one_world_200301f.jpg

To summarise, this all kicked off as Jack Straw asked (not demanded) that people show their face when they came to see him. I think it is a reasonable request and is only fair that if they want to speak to him in person that they should accept. Would you think it fair if Jack Straw spoke to them from behind a partition?
Different things are socially acceptable in different places. Some people may curse a lot in their homeland, even in front of children. This should not give them the right to do so in our country.....or for British people in their country.
I support Jack Straw on this and commend him for having the guts to stand up and say his point of view knowing the backlash it would incur.

Anyway, they’re my thoughts. Looking forward to your reply.

wes · 08-10-2006 10:44pm

Conar wrote:

I understand where the pro-Burka side are coming from to an extent, but I think the comparison to asking to see a woman’s tits or vagina or a mans dick is taking it too far.
I am not heartless and would not like to go around upsetting people unnecessarily but I don't see why people get so enraged when we discuss our views of the Muslim faith or the goings on of the Muslims themselves.

I am a life long atheist so I also have issues with Catholicism which I have voiced on many an occasion and I never get the same level of argument back when I express some of those views.

I have seen a number of television interviews where women that did not originally wear the burka had decided to do so from then on, but I got no impression from them that they now regarded their face as some kind of sexual part which needed to be hidden, nor did they appear to regret the days where their face was on show.

I'm caught in 2 minds over this issue.
I wouldn't want to upset people just because they are different to what I am used to.
On the other hand I am sick of religion being an excuse for people to do things that other people would not be able to do.
I think that people should be able to practice whatever religion they like as long as it does not affect others around them. This I feel affects people.

Wicknight if you were to hold a job interview and a woman arrived in her full headgear etc I take it from your comments that you would not discriminate against her in any way.
Now, if I a simple Irish man turned up for an interview in a ninja outfit (not trying to be offensive, please bear with me here) would you discriminate against me for it?
I think you would.
If I was an African tribesman and I came for a job interview naked would you discriminate against me. I think you would.
If I was an Arab man with strict Islamic views similar to those of the Taliban (I'm perfectly aware that most Muslims do not share these views) and you had a number of women working with you would you hire me? I should hope not.
If I went to a part of Africa where they expected (not forced) me to walk around naked, then I think I would do so....or else not visit/live there.

So when you see people disagreeing with your views on how we should treat people, do not assume that we are simply being ignorant or that we just don't like people that look different, maybe we simply don't agree with them in some of their customs.
At the end of the day, we are Irish people, governed buy an Irish electorate, ruled by OUR Irish constitution. And we, yes WE should have the right to say what flies in our country.

I do not have any problem what so ever with these Burka's:
http://www.americansforunfpa.org/atf/cf/%7B867FAB06-64CA-4EBC-9A7A-D57C957C8B6F%7D/BURKA%20MOM.JPG

It’s these ones that I think people find silly and wouldn't want to see as part of our society:
http://www.frhavn-gym.dk/opslag/Burka-a7.jpg

These however I would gladly support a law enforcing women to wear them:
http://www.rapstation.com/images/itr_ftw_lil_kim_one_world_200301f.jpg

To summarise, this all kicked off as Jack Straw asked (not demanded) that people show their face when they came to see him. I think it is a reasonable request and is only fair that if they want to speak to him in person that they should accept. Would you think it fair if Jack Straw spoke to them from behind a partition?
Different things are socially acceptable in different places. Some people may curse a lot in their homeland, even in front of children. This should not give them the right to do so in our country.....or for British people in their country.
I support Jack Straw on this and commend him for having the guts to stand up and say his point of view knowing the backlash it would incur.

Anyway, they’re my thoughts. Looking forward to your reply.

As a Muslim I think the Burqa is silly and from my understaning they not neccessary. None of the Women in my family wear them.

Having said that I defend the right of Women who choose to wear them regardless of my feelings about it just as I would defend the right of other people to wear what they want. I have no right to tell anyone what to wear and no one else does.

Irish laws don't say anywhere that Burqa's are banned. If we one day go down that road I think we will have lost some our freedom and that would be a crying shame. The way I look at, first someone bans something I disagree with, then what next? I don't trust people who want to tell someone else what to do be they Muslim, Christian or whatever. Live and let live is what I say as long as these Women keep to themselves and don't tell anyone else to start wearing Burqas I don't have a problem with them.

As for Jack Straw, I don't think he was being brave. Its a simple politically motivated move to get his name in the press. There is a contest in the labour party to see who is deputy leader and I am sure Mr Straw has that goal in site. Far from this being a touchy subject it is a very safe one as a hell of a lot of Muslims don't feel the Burqa is neccessary. Its a very smart move on his part in my opinion, but its just a politician looking to get his name in the paper and nothing more. All the so called anger being attributed to the Muslim community are heated comments at the most extreme and the head ines use the word anger. I don't see the so called anger, I think annoyance at all the unwanted attention would be more accurate, but that makes a crap head line.

Conar · 08-10-2006 11:06pm

Wes wrote:

Having said that I defend the right of Women who choose to wear them regardless of my feelings about it just as I would defend the right of other people to wear what they want. I have no right to tell anyone what to wear and no one else does.

I understand your point but I feel that in this day and age it is expected that one should see a persons face when in public. I don't think that they should not be allowed wear Burka's at all. I honestly would complain though if I went, for example, to the local motor taxation office and a lady in the full burka covering all but her eyes was serving me. I would find this offensive. I would also expect that if someone called into to my office to speak to me face to face that I would see they're face.

Wes wrote:

Irish laws don't say anywhere that Burqa's are banned. If we one day go down that road I think we will have lost some our freedom and that would be a crying shame. The way I look at, first someone bans something I disagree with, then what next? I don't trust people who want to tell someone else what to do be they Muslim, Christian or whatever. Live and let live is what I say as long as these Women keep to themselves and don't tell anyone else to start wearing Burqas I don't have a problem with them.

This is a bit out there, but what if a large number of irish non-Muslim youths put on matching outfits which covered them from head to toe and walked into a supermarket. Do you think that security would have the right to discriminate against them due to how they are dressed or would you defend their rights too? I understand that there is a difference but in my mind its all for one and one for all in the eyes of the law and society. Some people should not be allowed dress or behave in a manner that other people would not simply because of their religion.

Wes wrote:

As for Jack Straw, I don't think he was being brave. Its a simple politically motivated move to get his name in the press. There is a contest in the labour party to see who is deputy leader and I am sure Mr Straw has that goal in site. Far from this being a touchy subject it is a very safe one as a hell of a lot of Muslims don't feel the Burqa is neccessary. Its a very smart move on his part in my opinion, but its just a politician looking to get his name in the paper and nothing more. All the so called anger being attributed to the Muslim community are heated comments at the most extreme and the head ines use the word anger. I don't see the so called anger, I think annoyance at all the unwanted attention would be more accurate, but that makes a crap head line.

Valid point, however how many of todays politicains gestures are not at least partially selfishly motivated.

Once again though I would like to point out that I have no problem what-so-ever with the style of burka that simply covers the head and below the chin.
I really do feel though that leaving a slit for eyes, or sometimes even just a net curtain style covering of the eye slit is not acceptable public dress.

Conar · 08-10-2006 11:13pm

RedPlanet wrote:

I think people's reactions to this is bizarre.
You'd think in a society that considers itself "free" wouldn't have such a bug up there arse regarding someone whom chooses to wear an article of clothing that partially covers their face.
Be that as it may, perhaps those posters, would benefit from lobbying their government to create a new law stipulating that:
"It is an offense for a woman, or man to wear articles of clothing that cover most of the face."
Or do those posters just want to single out people of the Islamic faith?
But that would probably be shot down as religious persecution and rightly so.

Personally it has nothing to do with religion for me.
I think all religions are stupid, but that is not my motication here.
Can other people that seem to be supporting Jack Straws comments please clarify if you have a problem with all Burka's or just the ones that cover the whole face except for the eyes?

wes · 08-10-2006 11:18pm

Conar wrote:

I understand your point but I feel that in this day and age it is expected that one should see a persons face when in public. I don't think that they should not be allowed wear Burka's at all. I honestly would complain though if I went, for example, to the local motor taxation office and a lady in the full burka covering all but her eyes was serving me. I would find this offensive. I would also expect that if someone called into to my office to speak to me face to face that I would see they're face.

This is a bit out there, but what if a large number of irish non-Muslim youths put on matching outfits which covered them from head to toe and walked into a supermarket. Do you think that security would have the right to discriminate against them due to how they are dressed or would you defend their rights too? I understand that there is a difference but in my mind its all for one and one for all in the eyes of the law and society. Some people should not be allowed dress or behave in a manner that other people would not simply because of their religion.

Valid point, however how many of todays politicains gestures are not at least partially selfishly motivated.

Once again though I would like to point out that I have no problem what-so-ever with the style of burka that simply covers the head and below the chin.
I really do feel though that leaving a slit for eyes, or sometimes even just a net curtain style covering of the eye slit is not acceptable public dress.

As I said myself I dislike the Burqa myself, but I still think these Women have a right to dress any which way they like.

As for the Super Market example that is hardly the same. We are talking about a minority even among Muslims. What you describe is something akin to civil disobedience or a precursor to a crime. I do think that in a matter of security it would be okay to ask them to take of the Burqa and if they don't want they can take there business elsewhere. As for youths, the mangement have the right to refuse admission and if they find such youths (or Women wearing a Burqa) to be a security then that is there undeniable right. However I don't think a single Woman in a Burqa would all into this category and the chance of several happening into a super market at the same time is unlikely.

Jack Straw and the Muslims!

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