Jack Straw and the Muslims!

Hobbes

Actually asiantheslayer is incorrect. To recap on the whole thread. He said he asks Muslim women would they mind removing the veil. If they say no then he leaves it at that.

Bunnyhopper

The shinners have been through all this apparently.

And as for taking offence at things, this just seems to be a bit too eager: http://www.appledefects.com/?p=127

blackthorn

I think so far there has not been a female Muslim voice in this thread. So....

Fareena Alam, editor of the Muslim magazine Q News explores the impact of Jack Straw's
views on women wearing the veil.

wes

Bunnyhopper wrote:

And as for taking offence at things, this just seems to be a bit too eager: http://www.appledefects.com/?p=127

[off-topic]
Well the update points out that the web site that reported this steaming pile of crap has quite a bit of bias. That article can be found here:

http://www.altmuslim.com/perm.php?id=P1802_0_24_0

Really this is getting silly, people are starting to use Muslims being angry as an excuse for all kinds of stupidity and this is without a single Muslims saying anything......
[/off-topic]

Scrumpyjake

what makes wearing the veil different from wearing headscarves and other religious paraphanelia is that deliberately disguising your face has never been acceptable in western culture . you try walking around town with a balaclava on or walk into shop with a scarf hiding your face . it wouldn't be tolerated.
Where our culture and muslim culture collide , then our culture should prevail . its too late to do something about in Britain because most of those woman wearing veils are probably british citizens but it shouldn't be tolerated here . if certain muslims have a problem with that they should be asked to leave before we end up with the same problems as britain and continental europe.

Zombrex

Scrumpyjake wrote:

what makes wearing the veil different from wearing headscarves and other religious paraphanelia is that deliberately disguising your face has never been acceptable in western culture . you try walking around town with a balaclava on or walk into shop with a scarf hiding your face . it wouldn't be tolerated.

That is complete nonsense.

The balaclava maybe because that is associated with criminal activity, but my aunt from the States was over here in the early 90s and she walked around with hood up and a scarf over her face because of the cold and no one batted an eye lid.

imeddyhobbs

Its all propaganda,how dare this little straw man criticize muslim women when his government is murdering people in iraq every day,its propaganda.
This discussion was on the late late on friday night,they had an islamic convert woman on it and she asked a question that seemed very logical to me.She asked,do you feel excluded when you are talking to a person with loads of piercings or tattoos,do you feel they are excluding you?how do you feel when you talk to a punk with green spikey hair?do you feel excluded?
If the likes of this coward wants to talk about concealing features then he should talk to the familys of british troops killed in iraq,tell them what they dies for Jack!
a visible statement of separation is governments and its people,Jack.

hellboy99

The whole religious thing is getting out of hand, if there was no such thing as religion I think there would be a lot problems on this earth.

Matamoros

On the veil thing, how do women who wear any type of head-dress or covering deal with the requirements of Custom controls which most countries have? As far as I am concerned, there is no god but I would be keen to learn and respect people's right to believe, after all, I may be totally wrong on this question.

mike65

Some terrorrist male suspect had that exact thought Matamoros, he dressed in a full length burka to evade suspicion

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2395178,00.html

Mike.

wes

mike65 wrote:

Some terrorrist male suspect had that exact thought Matamoros, he dressed in a full length burka to evade suspicion

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2395178,00.html

Mike.

All they have to do is get a female to ask to see "her" face.... The whole point of the veil is that a Man can't look at "her" face and plus the voice would give him away in such a case. Really there aren't that many Women who wear the full on niqab, hardly a big deal checking them to make sure they are who they are.

Victor

Matamoros wrote:

On the veil thing, how do women who wear any type of head-dress or covering deal with the requirements of Custom controls which most countries have? As far as I am concerned, there is no god but I would be keen to learn and respect people's right to believe, after all, I may be totally wrong on this question.

As Wes said, just ask for a female customs / immigration officer.

lol@

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2395178,00.html

Shahid Malik, Labour MP for Dewsbury, expressed concern that the issue could create unnecessary tension. “If this is true, then it is the first case of its kind in Britain and an isolated incident. We must not get hysterical about it. There have been many hundreds of cases where robberies have been committed by men wearing women’s stockings on their heads — but no one is talking about banning stockings.

Ping Chow Chi

So, as a quike re-cap, Mr Staw has for years been asking women wearing the veil, to remove it, and every one (until he gave his interview) had agreed....so whats the story here, and why has he felt the need to go to the press with it.

Now to me, it would appear that Jack is just posturing to appear 'tough', maybe he is planning on running for the next dep PM ?

Zombrex

mike65 wrote:

Some terrorrist male suspect had that exact thought Matamoros, he dressed in a full length burka to evade suspicion

Unfortunately the stupidity of the police never ceases to amaze me :rolleyes:

Matamoros

What I was really getting at, is that there are certain situations where anyone whether they be Muslim or of any other persuasion, religious or otherwise, will, on certain occasions, have to forego their belief or principle in order, in this case, to be allowed to enter a Country. Therefore, God's law cannot ever overcome State Law in all cases, my contention is that many of these religious habits will be dropped when the practical problems of life get in the way.

AdmiralNeo

Hypothetically speaking!

if I were a Dublin Bus driver and a women in a veil tried to get on a bus, I would refuse her.

The reason why would be down to security.

After the London Bombings I would consider anyone I couldnt see a security risk. And that would go for people wearing helmets.

I dont know what that person would be wearing underneath. They could be ok, but I wouldnt be taking the risk.

And to be honest they dont need to wear the vail. So why bother wearing it?

wes

AdmiralNeo wrote:

Hypothetically speaking!

if I were a Dublin Bus driver and a women in a veil tried to get on a bus, I would refuse her.

The reason why would be down to security.

After the London Bombings I would consider anyone I couldnt see a security risk. And that would go for people wearing helmets.

I dont know what that person would be wearing underneath. They could be ok, but I wouldnt be taking the risk.

And to be honest they dont need to wear the vail. So why bother wearing it?

Yeah, you see that makes no sense what so ever......

The London Suicide bombers were men (the majority who carry out these attacks are men). Secondly they dressed normally, so as not to give off any suspicion. Quite frankly any one with a bag could be a suicide bomber, or have a gun or a knife in there bag. You still wouldn't know there intentions just because you can see there face unless there abnormally stupid or something.

So your concerns for security, go for anyone who could potentially conceal a weapon on there person. So basically what you have said applies to everyone, not just a tiny minority of Women who wear the Niqab (its like 5% of what is already a minority). Hell a beard can be a bloody good disguise at times, for crying out loud. So basically you just refused a some poor Woman, a bus trip because of your paranoia.

Jimboo_Jones

AdmiralNeo wrote:

Hypothetically speaking!

if I were a Dublin Bus driver and a women in a veil tried to get on a bus, I would refuse her.

hummm, so, bags, suitcases and backpacks would be OK I assume, but you think that they can hide a bomb behind a veil??

strange.

AdmiralNeo

well the London Bombings were carried out by extreme Muslims.

Wearing the Veil is part of extreme Mulslim relegion.

Fair point about suticases etc. But wouldnt you be bothered if a Muslim got on a bus heading for o`connel street carrying a suitcase?

Conar

I was just watching the The Wright Stuff on 5 and they were discussing this.
There was a Muslim lady on there wearing the Burka (I think this is the one that doesn't cover the face) and she was a devout Muslim.
From what she was saying she seemed very tolerant of all religions, she mentioned christianity and judaism.
She stated though that she did not like the Niqab (I think thats the one anyway, the one that covers all but the eyes) and felt very nervous being around anyone wearing one.
She did not say that that they should be banned, but I thought it was an interesting point to raise for the people that have implied that myself and some others here have some sort of racial reason for objecting to them.

NeverSayDie

See here for a guide to the different types of veil and their names: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/05/europe_muslim_veils/html/1.stm

Conar

Thanks Neversaydie.
Latest update in Conars world of intolerance:
Burqa and the Niqab are bad......umkay!

Does this make me intolerant?
I don't think so but I'm open to argument.

mountainyman

Wicknight wrote:

But I don't expect them to abandon who they are. I'm not going to expect that a Muslim woman should have to unveil to talk to me. If she doesn't wish to do so that is fine with me, I see absolutely no problem talking ot a Muslim woman wearing a veil.

Well Jack straw has a problem with it so that's that. Your expectations are different from his; fortunately or unfortunately you are not the MP for Bradford. One could say that it is not appropriate for Mr Straw to make this request of his constituents, but surely you don't believe that he has no right to make such a request.

Objectively there can be no problem with wearing the veil. We allow people to wear what they want.

However we should recognise that it is not normative behaviour within the Muslim community, veiling is aberrant and must be regarded as a deliberate rejection of the assimilation that many (most?) Irish people regard as desirable. (I accept that for women from the Arabian Peninsula and Afghanistan it is more normal --In both these societies women are property not people).

Given that the United Kngdom is involved in a war in which British soldiers are dying to defeat a politicised vision of Islam and that (some) women who wear the veil are doing so as a statement of their support for that politico religious vision is Mr Straw's reaction not inevitable. Indeed it is to be expected that as the war on terror drags on (and it could drag on forever if that suits the American ruling class) the margin of what is acceptable will narrow and Muslims will be required to 'prove' their loyalty.

In the short term this involves violations of individual rights. In the long term by compelling assimilation it may be a good thing.

MM

mountainyman

AdmiralNeo wrote:

Hypothetically speaking!

if I were a Dublin Bus driver and a women in a veil tried to get on a bus, I would refuse her.

The reason why would be down to security.

Makes no sense. But might make sense in a bank. You could wear a burka and then pull out a gun.

AdmiralNeo wrote:

And to be honest they dont need to wear the vail. So why bother wearing it?

According to Wicknight because it makes them feel comfortable, according to me because the pressure to assimilate has risen. Muslims are becoming required to prove their 'loyalty', some are 'disloyal' in the sense that they are Islamic Fascists and some people will always kick when you tell them what to do.

MM

oscarBravo

AdmiralNeo wrote:

well the London Bombings were carried out by extreme Muslims.

Wearing the Veil is part of extreme Mulslim relegion.

Fair point about suticases etc. But wouldnt you be bothered if a Muslim got on a bus heading for o`connel street carrying a suitcase?

Do you have anything useful to contribute? Or is your stay here going to continue to be characterised by half-assed trolling?

oscarBravo

mountainyman wrote:

In the short term this involves violations of individual rights. In the long term by compelling assimilation it may be a good thing.

Violation of individuals' rights... compelling assimilation... what a caring society you seem to envision.

mountainyman wrote:

You could wear a burka and then pull out a gun.

...or you could wear a jacket and then pull out a gun. What was your point, again?

HelterSkelter

AdmiralNeo wrote:

well the London Bombings were carried out by extreme Muslims.

Wearing the Veil is part of extreme Mulslim relegion.

Fair point about suticases etc. But wouldnt you be bothered if a Muslim got on a bus heading for o`connel street carrying a suitcase?

Oh my God!! Are you for real?!! How old are you?

mountainyman

oscarBravo wrote:

Violation of individuals' rights... compelling assimilation... what a caring society you seem to envision.

Well I accept that there is a tradeoff, but many (most?) people regard assimilation as a good thing and if someone else has to be oppressed for the greater good hey it isn't me is it?

oscarBravo wrote:

...or you could wear a jacket and then pull out a gun. What was your point, again?

That it might be legitimate to ask people entering banks to take off their veil.
However people who wear veils (apart from bank robbers) would be
[1] Unable to speak English and not allowed to handle money
[2] Spoiling for a row about wearing their veil.

MM

HelterSkelter

mountainyman wrote:

That it might be legitimate to ask people entering banks to take off their veil.

Generally in this society we don't make opressive rules like that unless there is a good reason for it. So can you tell us how many banks have been robbed recently by Muslim women wearing veils? Or how many crimes at all have been committed by a woman wearing a veil? I was listening to George Galloway on Sunday night and he said that not one Muslim woman wearing a veil/burqa has been convicted of ANY crime in the last ten years. Doesn't sounds like the veil is much of a threat (except maybe to the intolerant people in our 'liberal' soicety).

mountainyman

HelterSkelter wrote:

Generally in this society we don't make opressive rules like that unless there is a good reason for it.

Yes we do, why can't I buy marijuana?

HelterSkelter wrote:

So can you tell us how many banks have been robbed recently by Muslim women wearing veils? Or how many crimes at all have been committed by a woman wearing a veil? I was listening to George Galloway on Sunday night and he said that not one Muslim woman wearing a veil/burqa has been convicted of ANY crime in the last ten years.

George Galloway says none but I say many many banks may have been robbed by women in Burkas, certainly I am unaware of any evidence to the contrary.

HelterSkelter wrote:

Doesn't sounds like the veil is much of a threat (except maybe to the intolerant people in our 'liberal' soicety).

Are the views of the intolerant to be disregarded, are the intolerant an outgroup who can be condemned out of hand.

To paraphrase Pastor Niemoller:
First they came for the intolerant
But I did not care because I was not intolerant...

MM