Opinions: Jui Jitsu vs Aikido

The Bored One

47MartialMan wrote:

Gives attestant to how many people truely do not know that BJJ is not so different than JJ .

In my opinion, BJJ is more hyped.

As I said, depends on judging criteria. Technique wise, most grappling arts have some similarity.
But with regards training methodolgy, and focus, thats where the differences occur.
For example, JJ tends to be technique-orientated, whereas BJJ and Judo are instead positioning orientated. BJJ especially.

47MartialMan

The Bored One wrote:

As I said, depends on judging criteria. Technique wise, most grappling arts have some similarity.
But with regards training methodolgy, and focus, thats where the differences occur.
For example, JJ tends to be technique-orientated, whereas BJJ and Judo are instead positioning orientated. BJJ especially.

Going by observations, such in UFC, I do not see much difference other than punching someone on the floor.

judomick

because you obviously dont understand the differences between the training methods, BJJ is similiar to Judo because they both derive from JJ the difference being because judo and bjj are trained 'alive' the techniques have evolved and have ultimately become more effective

The Bored One

47MartialMan wrote:

Going by observations, such in UFC, I do not see much difference other than punching someone on the floor.

Try watching Pride Fc instead. The main difference with BJJ and alot of arts, is the emphasis on positioning. You'll see similar techniques show up in alot of styles, but very few focus on or drill for gaining the stronger position as much as BJJ. To quote Bas Rutten "Position before Submission".
Judo does have similar positional training, but with a different focus, since the emphasis is on throws, rather than submissions in competition.

47MartialMan

judomick wrote:

because you obviously dont understand the differences between the training methods, BJJ is similiar to Judo because they both derive from JJ the difference being because judo and bjj are trained 'alive' the techniques have evolved and have ultimately become more effective

Sorry, I do not completely agree.

The JJ to which I was taught was extremly aggresive and brutal. Under guidleines such as rules, it will not prevail.

sticky keys slowing me down which may be best for all

The Bored One

47MartialMan wrote:

Sorry, I do not completely agree.

The JJ to which I was taught was extremly aggresive and brutal. Under guidleines such as rules, it will not prevail.

sticky keys slowing me down which may be best for all

Viciousness of technique is a poor way of judging effectiveness, since in many cases viciousness is wasted energy. When it comes to training, determining effectiveness is based on comparing whether or not it uses isolaed techniques for training, or "alive" fluid drills in training.
One emphasizes the specific technique. The other emphasizes the positioning and movement. Positioning is ALWAYS more important than any individual technique.

47MartialMan

The Bored One wrote:

Viciousness of technique is a poor way of judging effectiveness, since in many cases viciousness is wasted energy. When it comes to training, determining effectiveness is based on comparing whether or not it uses isolaed techniques for training, or "alive" fluid drills in training.
One emphasizes the specific technique. The other emphasizes the positioning and movement. Positioning is ALWAYS more important than any individual technique.

You speak of live fluid drills-in sincerity what do you mean?

Viciousness of technique is a poor way of judging effectiveness
Yet audiences enjoy watching such gladiatorial events and judge it per the action of brutality.

Besides, the tactics may have been vicious, but the workings of the training were self defense and discipline.

It was not strictly about fighting

argg, very uncomfortable to type this way

takes much time

judomick

47MartialMan wrote:

Sorry, I do not completely agree.

The JJ to which I was taught was extremly aggresive and brutal.

well it was obviously badly taught, techniques that work by being aggressive and brutal are techniques used without skill and timing, usually only by stronger and bigger opponents
JJ is a soft art, meaning the emphasis is on using your opponents energy not you own

47MartialMan

judomick wrote:

well it was obviously badly taught, techniques that work by being aggressive and brutal are techniques used without skill and timing, usually only by stronger and bigger opponents
JJ is a soft art, meaning the emphasis is on using your opponents energy not you own

No, No, please read the previous post.

If you watch the sanguinary and force of fighting, one can state this as brutal.

I use these terms as to mean effective, yes but rhetorical

From a certian perspective, any physical conflict could appear brutal.

judomick

sorry you stated the JJ which you were taught was aggressive and brutal, indeed an armlock for instance is brutal, applied with skill and timing there is no need for aggression, aggression needed to complete a technique is where skill and timing are lacking, theres a difference between JJ and roman gladiators, i honestly dont believe you know to much about MA.

The Bored One

47MartialMan wrote:

You speak of live fluid drills-in sincerity what do you mean?

Viciousness of technique is a poor way of judging effectiveness
Yet audiences enjoy watching such gladiatorial events and judge it per the action of brutality.

Besides, the tactics may have been vicious, but the workings of the training were self defense and discipline.

It was not strictly about fighting

argg, very uncomfortable to type this way

takes much time

An isolated drill is where you take a single technique, and perform it on your partner. In other words, a technique performed in isolation.
This is a useful way of learnining the initial technique, but its useless for learning to apply it.

A fluid drill is one where its not restricted to one outcome. Rather than go with the technique, the opponent will resist it, or try to counter it, or will be attempting to apply a technique of his own etc
These drills can range from both particpants trying to pull off a single technique on each other, or have a range of techniques to choose from,
building up all the way to free-form sparring.

Traditional styles have a tendency to focus on isolated techniques, whereas styles with a competitive element tend to focus more on fuid drills, because they are more usefyl for learning application.

As I said before, watch Pride FC. Its fan base comes from the fact that the competitors are all highly skilled, and its fans tend to have a far wider range of technical knowledge than that of other competitions.

47MartialMan

Ah, but Jiu Jitsu is not so gentle. It was because of this, in one aspect, why Mr. Kano created Judo.

47MartialMan

The Bored One wrote:

An isolated drill is where you take a single technique, and perform it on your partner. In other words, a technique performed in isolation.
This is a useful way of learnining the initial technique, but its useless for learning to apply it.

A fluid drill is one where its not restricted to one outcome. Rather than go with the technique, the opponent will resist it, or try to counter it, or will be attempting to apply a technique of his own etc
These drills can range from both particpants trying to pull off a single technique on each other, or have a range of techniques to choose from,
building up all the way to free-form sparring.

Traditional styles have a tendency to focus on isolated techniques, whereas styles with a competitive element tend to focus more on fuid drills, because they are more usefyl for learning application.

As I said before, watch Pride FC. Its fan base comes from the fact that the competitors are all highly skilled, and its fans tend to have a far wider range of technical knowledge than that of other competitions.

I had fluid drills in all of the arts that I had studied upon advanced stages.

47MartialMan

judomick wrote:

sorry you stated the JJ which you were taught was aggressive and brutal, indeed an armlock for instance is brutal, applied with skill and timing there is no need for aggression, aggression needed to complete a technique is where skill and timing are lacking, theres a difference between JJ and roman gladiators, i honestly dont believe you know to much about MA.

Again, I believe you are taking my words out of context.

The Bored One

47MartialMan wrote:

I had fluid drills in all of the arts that I had studied upon advanced stages.

Fluid drills are not for advanced stages, it should be possible to having someone doing a fluid drill on their first night.
Technique is important, but positioning is more important. Alot of TMA's have a tendency to polish the technique till its nice and shiny, but pretty as those are, be unable to apply them.
Fluid drills are the foundation of fighting skills.
Yes its important to have good technique. But any technique that its takes ages to learn, is of no real use in combat.
DUring an adrenaline dump, your body will not be capable of fine motor skills, thus negating many of those techniques which people polish up.
So instead, you should focus on learning gross motor skills, which are quite easy to learn, and then the focus should be on fluid drills to practice applying them.

john kavanagh

The Bored One wrote:

An isolated drill is where you take a single technique, and perform it on your partner. In other words, a technique performed in isolation.
This is a useful way of learnining the initial technique, but its useless for learning to apply it.

A fluid drill is one where its not restricted to one outcome. Rather than go with the technique, the opponent will resist it, or try to counter it, or will be attempting to apply a technique of his own etc
These drills can range from both particpants trying to pull off a single technique on each other, or have a range of techniques to choose from,
building up all the way to free-form sparring.

Traditional styles have a tendency to focus on isolated techniques, whereas styles with a competitive element tend to focus more on fuid drills, because they are more usefyl for learning application.

As I said before, watch Pride FC. Its fan base comes from the fact that the competitors are all highly skilled, and its fans tend to have a far wider range of technical knowledge than that of other competitions.

this sounds a lot like SBG terminology except we would term what you are calling 'isolation' the 'introduction stage'. technique performed by both partners on each other with no resistance.

And what you are terming 'fluid drill' we call 'isolation stage'. this is where one of the partners will be trying to execute the technique while the other offers increasing resistance.

47MartialMan

john kavanagh wrote:

this sounds a lot like SBG terminology except we would term what you are calling 'isolation' the 'introduction stage'. technique performed by both partners on each other with no resistance.

And what you are terming 'fluid drill' we call 'isolation stage'. this is where one of the partners will be trying to execute the technique while the other offers increasing resistance.

See, this is why I question certain things.

Not so much that I may not know.

In so much to understand what a poster is saying.

The Bored One

john kavanagh wrote:

this sounds a lot like SBG terminology except we would term what you are calling 'isolation' the 'introduction stage'. technique performed by both partners on each other with no resistance.

And what you are terming 'fluid drill' we call 'isolation stage'. this is where one of the partners will be trying to execute the technique while the other offers increasing resistance.

I learned the terminology from a mix of sources, so its more the ones I personally prefer using.
Sorry for any confusion.

The Bored One

47MartialMan wrote:

See, this is why I question certain things.

Not so much that I may not know.

In so much to understand what a poster is saying.

The ironing is delicious....

john kavanagh

The Bored One wrote:

I learned the terminology from a mix of sources, so its more the ones I personally prefer using.
Sorry for any confusion.

no confusion, i understood you perfectly!

just surprised there is other sources using this type of terminology, never heard it anywhere else myself. where/what do you train?

The Bored One

john kavanagh wrote:

no confusion, i understood you perfectly!

just surprised there is other sources using this type of terminology, never heard it anywhere else myself. where/what do you train?

I train in Kokoro MMA but I haven't been there in a little while because of family business back in Navan, should be back there tomorrow.
Im also training in Aiki-wa Jitsu club back in Navan, its kinda a modified Aikido, which is starting to look like Judo with striking.
And Im thinking of joining up with a SD crowd called CFS in Dublin, I was at their seminar and it seemed an awful lot like MMA style training modified for self-defence. So I want to take a look at it, see what its like.

Apart from that its mostly just research, reading up on different articles to do with training methods and the self-defence "soft skills"
Tis alot of fun.

john kavanagh

The Bored One wrote:

And Im thinking of joining up with a SD crowd called CFS in Dublin, I was at their seminar and it seemed an awful lot like MMA style training modified for self-defence.

is this Noel McHugh's group?

good luck with your training

The Bored One

john kavanagh wrote:

is this Noel McHugh's group?

good luck with your training

Thats the one. I was at their seminar in Maynooth and they seemed pretty solid, so Im curious to see what their actual classes were like.

47MartialMan

The Bored One wrote:

The ironing is delicious....

Yes, I had to iron out a shirt. :rolleyes:

Do you mean this farcically?

The Bored One

47MartialMan wrote:

Yes, I had to iron out a shirt. :rolleyes:

Do you mean this farcically?

Very much so. Its a direct quote from Simpsons, back when the show was good and not the babbling crap it is now.

47MartialMan

The Bored One wrote:

Very much so. Its a direct quote from Simpsons, back when the show was good and not the babbling crap it is now.

My younger brother very much liked the program.

There were a few moments to which I would sit and watch with him.

The Bored One

47MartialMan wrote:

My younger brother very much liked the program.

There were a few moments to which I would sit and watch with him.

Go back and watch any of the stuff from seasons 1-7. It used to be a very smart show, and also contained more Citizen Kane references than any show going. Which is always a classy sign.

47MartialMan

The Bored One wrote:

Go back and watch any of the stuff from seasons 1-7. It used to be a very smart show, and also contained more Citizen Kane references than any show going. Which is always a classy sign.

I am not a fan of the program.

My brother is.

It was a convocation for brotherly bonding.