EL players who would have done better ....

Jivin Turkey

gimmick wrote:

This is a genuine question - is there another country with notions of upperosity who farm out their players to another country, for them to develop? Or are Ireland the only country which does this?

The problem is though that the domestic league is still in a transitional phase of professionalism.

Ireland needs an academy, but it doesn't have one yet, hence only a fool would rule out the attractiveness of an English side in comparison to the options available for a youngster here at the minute.

I don't think though that this is the principle cause of our problems. We still have a team which has six or seven players of genuine class, we just lack organisation and leadership.

gimmick

^^^

I don't think though that this is the principle cause of our problems. We still have a team which has six or seven players of genuine class, we just lack organisation and leadership.

But where are the next 6 or sevon going to come from? There are no/very few 17-21 year olds playing at the level that is assumed to be international standard ie Premiership etc. Mcgeady, Ireland, Doyle, Elliot, Miller etc etc all have done okay so far, none have ste the world alight (of course I do realsie Miller and Elliot are older than 21, Doyle as well for that matter).

Duff, Keane, Dunne, O Shea, Given have at most 6 years left in them (perhaps Given will have moreas he is a keeper). Kilbane, Carr have until the end of this campaign?

Who then? Jay Tabb, Sean St Ledger, Jonathon Douglas, and co?

The FAI are now reaping the rewards of their lifetime of stupidity.

The problem is though that the domestic league is still in a transitional phase of professionalism.

But why is this only being addressed now? Why not 30 years ago?

Jivin Turkey

gimmick wrote:

But where are the next 6 or sevon going to come from? There are no/very few 17-21 year olds playing at the level that is assumed to be international standard ie Premiership etc. Mcgeady, Ireland, Doyle, Elliot, Miller etc etc all have done okay so far, none have ste the world alight (of course I do realsie Miller and Elliot are older than 21, Doyle as well for that matter).

Where are the next six or seven going to come from? The same as the previous six or seven I would imagine. Players have always come through the ranks of English clubs and I don't see why this will change seeing as it has been like this for decades.

gimmick wrote:

The FAI are now reaping the rewards of their lifetime of stupidity.

But why is this only happening now? It's nothing to do with our young players going abroad. We had a poor pool of playersr at our disposal at the weekend, and a poor manager in place trying to do the best he could.

Football is a cyclical business. In a few years I'm sure we will see another few Irish stars (whom we probably haven't even heard of yet), and the smart money is that they will come through the ranks of an English club. That is the way it has always been and I don't see what has changed.

gimmick wrote:

But why is this only being addressed now? Why not 30 years ago?

Demographics.

Ireland does not have the population or resources to support a professional domestic football league that can expect to be competitive with other major European leagues IMO.

Particularly when you consider that soccer is competing with football, hurling and rugby to attract the attention of youngsters. All these games are 15 man sports and drain huge pools of talent that could be available for soccer.

Think about it, when is the last time someone from Kerry played soccer for Ireland? Or someone from Blackrock or Dublin 4? Certain parts of our society are soccer no-go areas.

People's expectations of how the national team should be doing are far too high as a result 88-94. Reaching the QF of WC90 was a ridiculous achievement for a nation of our size.

MrJoeSoap

thebaz wrote:

I have supported Ireland for over 20 years , and seen Ireland compete at the highest level -- what we have now as a national team is an embarassment
-- in the 20 years I have not seen one EL league player capable of playing at the International level -- if you are a good player you go to the UK as a teenager -- if you are committed and lucky you make it , and prove yourself at the higher level -- if Roy Keane had stuck at Cobh or McGrath at Pats -- would they have been the world class players they became -- if an EL player is good eneough to play at the national level , he will have to move on to a more competitive league to raise his standard - its not a knock at EL , its just a reality .

Just as a point of interest, have you watched the EL regularly this season? I don't mind people saying they "have not seen one EL league player capable of playing at the International level" if they actually watch it in any way frequently, but if its just a passing interest then I can't accept that statement.

If you don't watch it, you can't judge it. Simple as. If you do watch it, then I accept your opinion.

gosplan

Hi,

I can't say EL players would have done better if in the current Ireland setup but I'm pretty sure that Derry City would have taken something from that game or at least given Cyprus a game.

I don't think you can argue about the players though. I'm confidant that you could have taken a world 11 and they'd fail under the crippling force that is the irish setup

finnpark

Didnt Jonathan Douglas play for Monaghan United in the first division?

finnpark

It was interesting to read Dunphy saying that Stpen Kenny, Pta Fenlon or Damien Richardson should have been given the job. He said it was an insult to the Eircom league for the FAI to appoint an inexperienced man when Eircom league managers have been able to produce remarkable consistent performances against teams much better than Cyprus.

MrJoeSoap

finnpark wrote:

Didnt Jonathan Douglas play for Monaghan United in the first division?

Back in the day yeah.

FatherTed

I agree with finnpark. Years ago, the top English teams had a number of Irish players in there e.g. Liverpool(Whelan, Lawrenson, Houghton, Aldridge) Arsenal(O'Leary, Stapleton, Brady), Man Utd(Moran, McGrath, Keane, Irwin). Not so anymore as English Clubs can get better technically skilled foreign players. Even English football is suffering from this. The numbers of young Irish signing with English clubs have fallen dramatically over the last 10 or so years (only 6 last year, I read somewhere). We cannot expect English clubs develop all of our players. It is time the FAI put in a plan either to assist EL clubs with Youth Development or set up Youth Acadamies. I think it is the only way. Look at the Dutch, they keep churning out amazing players every year. All due to their own Youth development.

gimmick

Jivin Turkey wrote:

Players have always come through the ranks of English clubs and I don't see why this will change seeing as it has been like this for decades.

Becasue, as already mentioned by others, their is more talent available from elsewhere, who are technically better than their Irish counterparts of thhe same age.

But why is this only happening now? It's nothing to do with our young players going abroad. We had a poor pool of playersr at our disposal at the weekend, and a poor manager in place trying to do the best he could.

I think we are agreeing on this point. it should have come to a head years ago.

Football is a cyclical business. In a few years I'm sure we will see another few Irish stars (whom we probably haven't even heard of yet), and the smart money is that they will come through the ranks of an English club. That is the way it has always been and I don't see what has changed.

I would like to share your confidence. However, and I will have to find a link to this, Liam Brady is quite concerned at the state of young irish players coming through and has blasted the way they are being coached.

EDIT: Small link here. Will try find a better one.

Demographics.

Ireland does not have the population or resources to support a professional domestic football league that can expect to be competitive with other major European leagues IMO.

Particularly when you consider that soccer is competing with football, hurling and rugby to attract the attention of youngsters. All these games are 15 man sports and drain huge pools of talent that could be available for soccer.

Well Rugby has only really become into the fray in the last 10 years. Point is, the FAI should not have always sat back and expected other associations to develop the players for Ireland. As for the demographics, im sure the same could be said of the posher parts of London/Manchester/Paris etc.

People's expectations of how the national team should be doing are far too high as a result 88-94. Reaching the QF of WC90 was a ridiculous achievement for a nation of our size.

I, among others, have been saying this for a long time. We punched above our weight for quite a long time, the FAI expected that this would coninue forever, did feck all to nurture youth, and now find themselves in the position we are in.

As a slight side note, last year (maybe 18 months ago) Ireland played France in and U21 international in Cork. The french team was made up of first team players for top division clubs in France and England. Ireland had zero, instead there were League 1, league 2 and conference players, plus Cork Citys own Roy O Donovan (who I might add burned Gael Clichy all night long).

thebaz

MrJoeSoap wrote:

Just as a point of interest, have you watched the EL regularly this season? I don't mind people saying they "have not seen one EL league player capable of playing at the International level" if they actually watch it in any way frequently, but if its just a passing interest then I can't accept that statement.

If you don't watch it, you can't judge it. Simple as. If you do watch it, then I accept your opinion.

Simple answer - Yes - and my point is that for the past 20 years of watching Ireland there has been no League of Ireland player capable of mixing it on the International stage -- can you name one who has made an impact on the international stage -- and i'm not jibing the EL , its horses for courses -- i played junior football and watched first hand as all the talented players (not me), I played with go to England for trials -- its just a fact of life.

MrJoeSoap

Well Kevin Doyle has gone from an EL 'nobody' to first choice Irish striker in less than 18 months.

I watch Ollie Cahill playing the best football of his career week in, week out this season, and he's so far out of the international reckoning that I almost laugh at myself when I suggest him as a possible candidate for the national squad.

If we can call up Jay Tabb and Sean St. Ledger, why not Killian Brennan, Sean Dillon, Alan Bennett etc?

finnpark

thebaz wrote:

Simple answer - Yes - and my point is that for the past 20 years of watching Ireland there has been no League of Ireland player capable of mixing it on the International stage -- can you name one who has made an impact on the international stage

Thats our point. None have actually been given a chance so we simply don't know.

Dunphy: We would be better with an eircom League boss – Dunphy www.elevenaside.com


October 9, 2006

Outspoken columnist and pundit Eamon Dunphy reckons the FAI would be better served by appointing an eircom League manager – such as Derry City’s Stephen Kenny – to replace under-fire current boss Steve Staunton.

Dunphy called for Stan to be ousted after the 4-0 friendly defeat to Holland in August, and while many greeted that outburst as a knee-jerk reaction, he will have plenty of supporters in calling for the manager’s head after Saturday’s Murder in the Med.

And the RTE broadcaster feels the performances of domestic teams in Europe under Kenny, Shelbourne’s Pat Fenlon and Cork City’s Damien Richardson makes them abundantly more qualified than Staunton.

In his Irish Daily Star column, he wrote: “The public is very angry, the players are completely demoralised and they are sent out with no obvious game-plan. The players need their morale to be lifted.

“And I think the likes of Stephen Kenny, Damien Richardson and Pat Fenlon would be much better than the current managers.

“Think of Paris St Germain and how they went to Paris St Germain – who would be much better than Cyprus – and gave such a good account of themselves.

“They went out and should really have been well beaten, but they had a game-plan and stuck to it. Kenny, Fenlon and Richardson have taken Derry, Shelbourne and Cork into Europe in recent seasons and performed admirably.

“These are three guys who could at least put a proper, focused team on the pitch and get the best out of their players.”

thebaz

MrJoeSoap wrote:

Well Kevin Doyle has gone from an EL 'nobody' to first choice Irish striker in less than 18 months.

?

He still had to leave Ireland to improve further -- the 2 best players for Ireland over the past 15 years both came through EL , Keane and McGrath -- but to go that step up they had to cross the water - that the EL has a purpose and value , i am not disputing , i still enjoy going to watch live football at UCD -- but the professional facilities available in the Premiership are so much better , as is the overall standard of football -- what gets me is that the current Irish players don't seam to make use of these facilities , like some of the African or French players are doing in the Premiership . Maybe one of the Irish clubs could develop a proper professional nursery , similar to Ajax in the early ninties , under Kerr -- but knowing the FAI this would take 50 years to implement !

MrJoeSoap

thebaz wrote:

He still had to leave Ireland to improve further

He hardly improved sufficiently in 18 months to reach his current level and suddenly deserve his place. He was good enough for the Irish squad whilst at Cork yet people still gave the sweeping comments that there was nobody in the league worth calling up.

Zebra3

thebaz wrote:

He still had to leave Ireland to improve further -- the 2 best players for Ireland over the past 15 years both came through EL , Keane and McGrath -- but to go that step up they had to cross the water - that the EL has a purpose and value , i am not disputing , i still enjoy going to watch live football at UCD -- but the professional facilities available in the Premiership are so much better , as is the overall standard of football -- what gets me is that the current Irish players don't seam to make use of these facilities , like some of the African or French players are doing in the Premiership . Maybe one of the Irish clubs could develop a proper professional nursery , similar to Ajax in the early ninties , under Kerr -- but knowing the FAI this would take 50 years to implement !

thebaz,

What are you saying is true. Top EL players wil have to go abroad to reach a higher standard. But it's also stating the obvious. So do the top players in Denmark, Sweden and Norway.

However, surely what they do is better. Develop players at home until about 22 in a decent standard league and then let them go abroad. The odds are stacked against 16 year olds going to England and making it, they simply find it too hard to cope being in a foreign country. Let them grow up at home and then they can go abroad when they are mentally mature enough.

Football here will benefit and they will too.

thebaz

MrJoeSoap wrote:

He hardly improved sufficiently in 18 months to reach his current level and suddenly deserve his place. He was good enough for the Irish squad whilst at Cork yet people still gave the sweeping comments that there was nobody in the league worth calling up.

What we do not need is more average squad players , we need players who can do it at the top level and turn matches , and the EL in its present shape is unable to produce from within players who can do this on the international arena -- maybe you think its a sweeping statement -- but you have been unable to name one player past or present playing in the EL who would serioulsly turn a game for us -- good idea of Zebra of keeping them at home until theyre 20 - like McGrath and Keane did -- but if you have ambition like Keane or even Doyle you will utilise your ability in the best surroundings , to become a better player.

vorbis

the blindingly obvious counter point is that none of the el players have been given a chance to do that! I think its a mentality thing as well. Very few of our team are key players at their clubs. Trying out some of the best el players say in midfield, defence could be beneficial as we currently lack leaders there. After Andy O' Brien's performance, are we really saying that all the defenders in the el are worse than that.

Derry showed much better defending against Psg to show just one example.

MrJoeSoap

thebaz wrote:

but you have been unable to name one player past or present playing in the EL who would serioulsly turn a game for us

See post #3.

Had Kevin Doyle not moved to Reading, and had I suggested him here, you'd be saying the exact same thing as you are now. Do you really think Doyle has made such an improvement from the player he was 18 months ago, that he is almost unrecognisable now in comparison?

What about Killian Brennan?

What about Sean Dillon?

What about Alan Bennett?

What about Joe Gamble?

What about Stephen Ward?

ronbyrne2005

Greece's defense made up of four ordinary defenders kept out nearly everyone at euro2004. This demonstrates that organisation (particularly in the defensive side of game) is so important and you don't have to be technically ecellent to be a good defender. I'd say two top eircom league centre halves could do better than the current centre halves in Ireland squad especially if they had a defensive midfield player in front of them.

KdjaCL

ronbyrne2005 wrote:

Greece's defense made up of four ordinary defenders kept out nearly everyone at euro2004. This demonstrates that organisation (particularly in the defensive side of game) is so important and you don't have to be technically ecellent to be a good defender. I'd say two top eircom league centre halves could do better than the current centre halves in Ireland squad especially if they had a defensive midfield player in front of them.

Good point also highlights the manager differnce as they didnt make the WC in Germany.



kdjac

dbnavan

Since when did the League of Ireland become the English League:rolleyes: or does EL stand for something else ??

MrJoeSoap

Eircom League...

_blank_

dbnavan wrote:

Since when did the League of Ireland become the English League:rolleyes: or does EL stand for something else ??

:eek: :rolleyes:
What the f?

EL = eircom League.

dbnavan

Eircom League, hold hands up and runs away sorry! No embaressed smiley!:cool:


dbnavan.....is a

---

, no need for others to say it.

KdjaCL

<<<this one




kdjac

dbnavan

KdjaCL wrote:

<<<this one




kdjac

Was just about to give u a bo****ing for closing my thread when I copped it LOL

_blank_

dbnavan wrote:

Eircom League, hold hands up and runs away sorry! No embaressed smiley!:cool:


dbnavan.....is a

---

, no need for others to say it.

I'll apologise for the :rolleyes: I stuck in my reply too.

I thought you were a troll.

bohsman

No link for the stats but over 100 kids went to England in 1990, only 10 went last year, if we plan on only calling those players up its only going to get worse. I also think a lot of players like Stephen Ward and Joxer to give the Bohs examples would still be struggling away in the English reserves leagues getting the odd call up for the national team if it wasnt for the steady improvement of the league and the wages available especially since the collapse of ITV digital.
I hope Bohs spend decent money on a youth academy when the stadium money comes through but at the end of the day its up to the FAI and the government to promote/finance football in this country.

applehunter

If I were to choose a player that would have equipped himself better than were on the pitch in Cypros it would be.

1. Danny Murphy (Cork City) for John O'Shea, at least he'd show a bit of passion on the pitch and not prance around like O'Shea tends to do for Ireland.:mad:

John_C

The premise of this thread is wrong. The problem against Cyprus wasn't that our team came up against more skillful players it's that our team had no shape and near the end no real formation.

It is true, for example, that our midfield would have been better with Gamble in instead of Kilbane but that's probably true of about a dozen holding midfielders in the foreign leagues aswell.

KdjaCL

Why EL fans keep naming English players

Arent Bennet and Murphy both english?



kdjac

Töpher

It's only the Cark fans!

MrJoeSoap

KdjaCL wrote:

Why EL fans keep naming English players

Arent Bennett and Murphy both english?

kdjac

Fairly sure Bennett isn't, played for Ireland under 21's anyway.

ronbyrne2005

Thing is theres enough raw talent in the country but because less players are getting a chance in england or things don't work for whatever reason(not due to lack of talent). If there was a national academy here and a strong domestic league the national team would definetely benefit after several years.

gimmick

KdjaCL wrote:

Arent Bennet and Murphy both english?

Bennett is from Ballincollig and went to the same school as me, a few years behind me.

Murphy can declare for Ireland, I think, but its never really been given much thought.

Dan Murray is English, though there was talk as well before that he could declare for Ireland as well.

finnpark

gimmick wrote:

Bennett is from Ballincollig and went to the same school as me, a few years behind me.

Murphy can declare for Ireland, I think, but its never really been given much thought.

Dan Murray is English, though there was talk as well before that he could declare for Ireland as well.

I dont think any of the above mentioned are good enough. Murphy disipline is unacceptable as a player anyway. He should have been sent off 2 or 3 times last weekend.