School wants proof my child is a catholic

OTK

Hi there
I want to send my kid to the local national school. he is 4 yrs old.

My wife put his name down last year and now I have been offered a place conditional on me sending in his baptismal cert.

thing is he doesn't have one as my family is not religious.

Leaving aside the rights and wrongs of the state paying for sectarian discriminatory schools run by a paedophile club, how am i going to get my kid into the school?

I have three plans so far:
a) beg priest to baptise my child. Pretend I love jebus etc. Is there a quicky service or does the priest make you go through some months long process?
b) photocopy someone else's baptismal cert and tippex on my kids name, photocopy again, present fraudulent document (am I breaking the law?)
c) procrastinate about the cert for ages and never get round to producing it

I know there is a school for non religious called educate together but you have to have your name down for years and it is nowhere near my house.

thanks for your thoughts

OTK

Nevyn

Baptismal cert ?
I have never heard of that I was asked for the birth certs for both my children when I enrolled them.

Is it the schools enrollment policy to ask for the baptismal certs have you a copy of the school's enrollment policy.

Most of the primary schools will first give places to the children of the parish and then other parishes and then children of other faiths.

There usually is not such thing as a 'quickie' baptismal.
It can take some weeks if not months.
There are classes that you have to undertake and some very serious vows that you are expected to make on your behalf and that of the child.
Personally I could not be that much of a hypercrite or bow to family pressure and niether of my children are baptised.

You could be breaking the law by producing false documents and what happens when the child reaches the age of confession and holy communion.

Why not just present the birth cert and see what happens.

There is a waiting list for most primary schools at this stage not just the multidemoninational educate together schools.
A lot of schools are pushing for child not to start until they are at least 5.

Your chid does have the right to an education but not at the school of your choosing and primary school can set up thier own 'guidelines' in thier enrollment policy with thier patron and the department of education is reluctant to interfer.

Did you when you put your child's name down mention you were not catholic/christain ? or were you asked ? if you were asked what did you say ?

Ayla

Sorry, I'm new to the system here, but as I'll have to deal with it in the next few years I'm keen to learn as much as I can.

Is it true that a national, state-sponsored school can effectively discriminate through the enrollment process based on the child's religion? I would understand completely if it is a private school, but a national public school?

I'm confused here...is that what you're really saying? How can that be right? If it is right, what happens to the non-baptised children? Are they delayed education until all of the baptised children are enrolled? Why would this be acceptable to the department of education?

OTK

Thaedydal wrote:

Baptismal cert ?
I have never heard of that I was asked for the birth certs for both my children when I enrolled them.

The letter asks for a baptismal cert. I might try sending in a birth cert.

Is it the schools enrollment policy to ask for the baptismal certs have you a copy of the school's enrollment policy.

Do all schools have a written enrollment policy? I might get someone else to ring up and ask for it.

There are classes that you have to undertake and some very serious vows that you are expected to make on your behalf and that of the child.
Personally I could not be that much of a hypercrite or bow to family pressure and niether of my children are baptised.

I really do not want to go through with this rubbish. I am not under family pressure.

You could be breaking the law by producing false documents and what happens when the child reaches the age of confession and holy communion.

I wouldn't be sure that it was illegal. I guess he will be sick on communion and confirmation. No matter what he is going to have to sit through religion classes and it will be up to us to deprogram him afterwards.

Why not just present the birth cert and see what happens.

will do

Did you when you put your child's name down mention you were not catholic/christain ? or were you asked ? if you were asked what did you say ?

My wife told me today that she lied and said he was a catholic. She knew it was hard to get a place and didn't want to be deprioritised. She is more equivocal about the whole thing.

Kildrought

Is it true that a national, state-sponsored school can effectively discriminate through the enrollment process based on the child's religion

Yes.

Trinity

That is pure madness. Non-catholic children do not have to sit through religion afaik and no they cannot NOT accept him as he is non catholic.

If you would like me to look into this could you PM me the name of the school?

Ayla

Is there anywhere that the Dept of Ed would have this written that such discrimination is allowable? Obviously they wouldn't call it such, but is anything written in a charter/etc that would detail that this is ok?

I can't imagine why this is allowable? Surely the face of Ireland has changed enough over the last couple generations that such discrimination is outdated? I'm finding this shocking, and if I run into a problem w/ it when I go to register my kids in a few years I think some heads will roll.

kippy

Interesting thread, although I dont think this comment was warranted:

Leaving aside the rights and wrongs of the state paying for sectarian discriminatory schools run by a paedophile club, how am i going to get my kid into the school?

If you dont want your child going to a catholic school I think you should perhaps look at the other forms of education available to you. I am not sure where you are based but depending on pupil numbers different schools have different selection criteria.

Presenting a "Fake" baptisimal cert is breaking the law.

Trinity

Ayla wrote:

Is there anywhere that the Dept of Ed would have this written that such discrimination is allowable? Obviously they wouldn't call it such, but is anything written in a charter/etc that would detail that this is ok?

I can't imagine why this is allowable? Surely the face of Ireland has changed enough over the last couple generations that such discrimination is outdated? I'm finding this shocking, and if I run into a problem w/ it when I go to register my kids in a few years I think some heads will roll.

I would be very surprised if this was allowed.I will make enquiries.

Ayla

kippy wrote:

I am not sure where you are based but depending on pupil numbers different schools have different selection criteria.

Irregardless of where the school is based, the selection criteria should never be a child's religion in a national, state-sponsored school

mountainyman

Don't produce it just procrastinate and procrastinate. There will be no problem.

HOWEVER:

They will successfully convert your children to Ctaholicism if you are cool with that cool. If not look for an alternative.

This happened to us though I was pleased.

The difficulty with the Educate Together schools is that it is basically a bunch of really posh people who get together to keep out the commoners; you won't get in. Is there a Gaelscoil in your area, they tend to be less religious.

Is there any other school that they can go to. Doesn't the government have to provide a place for them in the physically nearest school of their religion?

It is a bit leftfield but why not baptise them anglican? The schools are excellent; socially it is useful and the secondary schools are really expensive but anglicans attend for free (if the parents can't afford it). If you don't care about religion it is a winner I think.

MM

OTK

kippy wrote:

Interesting thread, although I dont think this comment was warranted:

I don't think raping children with gay abandon for decades was warranted and I don't think the fact that this organisation covered it up and received no sanction beyond their negotiated indemnity bond was warranted. But hey that's just me.

Presenting a "Fake" baptisimal cert is breaking the law.

Do you know which law? I don't want to break the law.

I found some good information about primary school structures on oasis.gov.ie
http://www.oasis.gov.ie/education/primary_education/ownership_of_schools.html

It seems that the primary schools are owned by the churches. In return for the use of their buildings, the state pays the entire operational costs and teachers' salaries and allows the archbishops to control the school boards and operate sectarian selection practices.

Kildrought

Education Act 2000, see also www.education.ie

Schools may define their entry requirements and priority to entry; based on the ethos of the school, priority can include religion, catchment area, siblings already in school etc.,

kippy

Irregardless of where the school is based, the selection criteria should never be a child's religion in a national, state-sponsored school

So what should the criteria be then?
If its a catholic school surely one of the criteria be that the child is catholic?
Kippy

Mr. Presentable

It's a disappointing situation, but not shocking, and not outside the rights of the school.

Why, though, would you want to send your child to a school whose ethos is at such variance with your own?

OTK

mountainyman wrote:

Don't produce it just procrastinate and procrastinate. There will be no problem.

Great, I hope this is true.

They will successfully convert your children to Ctaholicism if you are cool with that cool. If not look for an alternative.

This happened to us though I was pleased.

Ok fair point

The difficulty with the Educate Together schools is that it is basically a bunch of really posh people who get together to keep out the commoners; you won't get in.

sounds like you didn't get in? I'd have no problem with my kid going to a posh school, I just didn't know about in time. It's my fault. I'd like the idea of my kid learning about other religions without being told that any of them were the correct one.

Is there a Gaelscoil in your area, they tend to be less religious.

Are they not run by republicans? Is this a misconception?

It is a bit leftfield but why not baptise them anglican? The schools are excellent; socially it is useful and the secondary schools are really expensive but anglicans attend for free (if the parents can't afford it). If you don't care about religion it is a winner I think.

Yes there is a good protestant school nearby and for some reason I find their religion less unpleasant than catholicism. I am going to look into this.

Ayla

My point is that I can't understand why religion is involved at all (although OTK's Oasis reference has clarified that a bit). A national school is there to educate our children in maths, sciences, arts, languages, etc. The way I see it, if you want your child to learn religion you take them to religious classes held by the various religious sects.

I think the ownership of the school building and payment of education by the government smacks of the old feudal system, and I'm amazed it's still existing. I completely understand if the school system wants to prioritize based on catchment areas, previous siblings, child's age, etc., as those criteria all directly influence the functioning and effectiveness of the school.

But religion? What century are we in?

kippy

I don't think raping children with gay abandon for decades was warranted and I don't think the fact that this organisation covered it up and received no sanction beyond their negotiated indemnity bond was warranted. But hey that's just me.

I dont think the fact that you are tarring every single priest, nun, bishop etc with the same brush is warranted in any way. The main thing thats pissing you off here by the sounds of it, is that you are a bit pissed off because you'll have that bit extra hassle in getting the kids to school because you are not a catholic.
If you were so anti catholic I dont think youd have thought twice about sending you kids to this school. The main reason you are sending them there is because it is handy for you. DO you want then listening to all this religius spiel that you so badly disagree with, if not then you shouldnt have applied there.

It seems that the primary schools are owned by the churches. In return for the use of their buildings, the state pays the entire operational costs and teachers' salaries and allows the archbishops to control the school boards and operate sectarian selection practices.

What selection polices would you like to see in place?

OTK

nipplenuts wrote:

It's a disappointing situation, but not shocking, and not outside the rights of the school.

Why, though, would you want to send your child to a school whose ethos is at such variance with your own?

I live next door. He'd be able to walk to school.

I am an atheist Christian so a christian ethos would be quite OK with me. I wish religion was taught outside of school hours like piano lessons. Then the kids could go to the same schools and there wouldn't be a problem.

kippy

My point is that I can't understand why religion is involved at all (although OTK's Oasis reference has clarified that a bit). A national school is there to educate our children in maths, sciences, arts, languages, etc. The way I see it, if you want your child to learn religion you take them to religious classes held by the various religious sects.

I think the ownership of the school building and payment of education by the government smacks of the old feudal system, and I'm amazed it's still existing. I completely understand if the school system wants to prioritize based on catchment areas, previous siblings, child's age, etc., as those criteria all directly influence the functioning and effectiveness of the school.

But religion? What century are we in?

I do agree with you.
In modern Ireland there are many faiths/beliefs etc and to make these part of a selection criteria for schools is a bit draconian. However, the OP knew about the rules before he applied to the school, I dont think that because he believes that these rules are stupid, makes it right for him to con his way into the school correct.
If he doesnt agree with the religion etc then he should look for other alternatives.
The reason I asked where the person lives is because in the bigger cities there are alternatives, not so many out from the city and in that case, I dont think the schools have these criteria, as they dont have the same amount of numbers applying to go there so they will allow all relisions in.
So the Catholic thing is only a criteria when the school does not have the places available for all people applying. Because of the history of the national school system, catholics get first places.....
fair enough in my opinion.
Kippy

Nevyn

OTK wrote:

Do all schools have a written enrollment policy? I might get someone else to ring up and ask for it.

Yes they have do as part of thier charter and patronage.

Ayla wrote:

Is it true that a national, state-sponsored school can effectively discriminate through the enrollment process based on the child's religion?

Yes as they are state funded but they are not state sponsored.

Ayla wrote:

I would understand completely if it is a private school, but a national public school?

Infact they are private schools but paid for by public taxes.

http://www.oasis.gov.ie/education/primary_education/ownership_of_schools.html

Ownership of primary schools
Information

The vast majority of primary schools in Ireland are privately owned and supported by the different churches. The state pays the bulk of the building and running costs and a local contribution is made towards the running costs.

National schools are privately owned - in general by the relevant church authorities. In the case of Catholic schools, the owners are usually the diocesan trustees; the same is true for Church of Ireland schools. Other denominational schools usually have a board of trustees nominated by the church authorities. Multi-denominational schools are usually owned by a limited company or board of trustees.

Gaelscoileanna may be denominational and come under the same patronage as Catholic schools but some have their own limited company.

Ayla wrote:

I'm confused here...is that what you're really saying? How can that be right? If it is right, what happens to the non-baptised children? Are they delayed education until all of the baptised children are enrolled? Why would this be acceptable to the department of education?

Yes a school that has a christian patron who sets up the school for christain children is allows to give priority to christian children of the same demonination as the school, then other denominations and then lastly children that are not baptised.

There are islamic schools that do the same for islamic children.

The educate together school is multidenominational and does not stream appliacants according to if they are baptised or not.

There are really no national/primary schools that are completly non denominational and that have the dept of education as thier patron.

Children that do not fit the top critea of a schools enrollment policy are left to last on the list and may not get a place in that school.
It is getting to the stage where parents may have to look futher away from home to get thier child into school as they are not garenteed a place in the local school esp if the local school has a certain religious ethos and the child is not of the same or any religious ethos.

A child can start school at the age of 4 but they don't have to start school until the age of 6 and with waiting lists being so long some schools are encouraging parents to not start the child until the age of 6.

Children do have a right to education but not in thier local school or the school of the parents choosing under the current system and yes this is unfair.

OTK would you prefer for you child to be in an educate together school if one was close to you ?
There is a campagian running for this atm you can see more about it here.
http://www.educatetogether.ie/4_help_us_with_our_work/letter_to_minister.html

I think it is an horrible position to be in and you may have to delay your child starting school and not have the child in a school close to home.
I would come clean with the school get a copy of thier enrollment policy, get in touch with the dept of education and on to your local TDs about it and see what can be done.

kippy

Great post Thaedydal, very informative and well researched.
It is indeed a difficult position to be in-hopfully the OP gets it resolved.
Kippy

Kildrought

but anglicans attend for free (if the parents can't afford it).

not quite correct

The SEC means-tested grant has maximum limits; generally up to 40% of the school fee payable. And those schools also give priority to children of a specific religion in some cases requiring references from your minister/vicar.

Nevyn

mountainyman wrote:

The difficulty with the Educate Together schools is that it is basically a bunch of really posh people who get together to keep out the commoners; you won't get in. Is there a Gaelscoil in your area, they tend to be less religious.

mountainyman you have been warned repeatly on this forum about casting slurs against educate together school and the parents that used them, your experience and opinion is not everyones.

otk wrote:

I don't think raping children with gay abandon for decades was warranted and I don't think the fact that this organisation covered it up and received no sanction beyond their negotiated indemnity bond was warranted. But hey that's just me.

I don't see how that is relavant the people you need to be harraging and harassing are your local td and the dep of education.

Ayla

Thaedydal wrote:

There are really no national/primary schools that are completly non denominational and that have the dept of education as thier patron.

Ok, this is my point. Why not???

Why are the schools still owned by the churches, and why are parents allowing themselves to get sucked into schools that they may not prefer, just b/c their religion dictates where their kids can go? Why is everyone rolling over and just taking this?

Shouldn't school be about the best interest of the children (ie: starting early, learning the basics, etc) versus delaying education b/c you can't get in b/c of your religion??? No, I'm sorry, but that's not right. I'll put my kids before religion (as I'm sure we all do), and the "system" saying that my kids won't get into a good (close/small/etc) school b/c I decided not to baptise them is just wrong.

fly_agaric

OTK wrote:

Are they not run by republicans? Is this a misconception?

If you mean that the way it sounds...:eek:...well, they could be a bit particular about the nipper having his little armalite ready for the 1st day! Thanks for the belly-laugh!

Ayla wrote:

Surely the face of Ireland has changed enough over the last couple generations that such discrimination is outdated?

You really seem to have no idea what a very, very, Catholic and God-Fearing little place this country was and that was (and still is) reflected in how things are set up. It is outdated, but the "changes" in these regards here probably started in the last 2 decades and have accelerated in the past decade rather than kicking off "generations" ago.

Ayla

fly_agaric wrote:

It is outdated, but the big "changes" in this probably began about 2 decades ago rather than "generations" ago.

Well, by God, if the changes started 20 years ago, then we should be seeing some evolution in the school system by now! Is this a matter of everyone sitting on their hands, or have parents just not been irked enough to push educational reform?

I want my kids to have the best education possible and be at school from an early age, learning their subjects. I don't care who sits next to them in class, in fact I would welcome a multi-religious student body. That's the world we live in now and it's time the schools catch up.

Nevyn

Ayla wrote:

Why are the schools still owned by the churches,

Because the government can't afford to buy them and the land off the church nor does it want to been to be spitting in the face of the churches ( both catholic and prodestant ).

Ayla wrote:

and why are parents allowing themselves to get sucked into schools that they may not prefer,

Because they happen to be the local school and they want the child to be able to walk to scholl and be in school with thier friend to be close to home.

Ayla wrote:

Why is everyone rolling over and just taking this?

Some people aren't which is why the educate together charity was started to set up an alterantive and patron mulitdenominational schools.
the majority of new primary school and new primary school being planned are multidenominational schools.

Ayla wrote:

Shouldn't school be about the best interest of the children (ie: starting early, learning the basics, etc) versus delaying education b/c you can't get in b/c of your religion??? No, I'm sorry, but that's not right. I'll put my kids before religion (as I'm sure we all do), and the "system" saying that my kids won't get into a good (close/small/etc) school b/c I decided not to baptise them is just wrong.

I would agree with you, personally I don't like having to walk trough the local churches grounds to gain acess to my childrens primary school but is was build on the church grounds. The school has a wonderful way of acomidating those that are not christain but I am lucky that mine got in when they did and I wonder if I was applying today on thier behalf would they get in.

The lack of places in schools and in fact schools themselves is down to bad planning and lack of joined up thinking. Really with all the houses being built it was a suprise that there would be a need for more schools ?
With the levels of imagration it is a surpise that there is a need for more schools and school places.

This will only get worse when the bubble of children start looking for secondary school places.

MiniMetro

OTK wrote:

Hi there
Leaving aside the rights and wrongs of the state paying for sectarian discriminatory schools run by a paedophile club, how am i going to get my kid into the school?

I have three plans so far:
a) beg priest to baptise my child. Pretend I love jebus etc. Is there a quicky service or does the priest make you go through some months long process?
b) photocopy someone else's baptismal cert and tippex on my kids name, photocopy again, present fraudulent document (am I breaking the law?)
c) procrastinate about the cert for ages and never get round to producing it

OTK

God help us all that you are actually a parent.

Nevyn

MiniMetro I suggest you read the charter of this forum before posting in it again.

joolsveer

My daughter went to the local national school, in Dublin 15, which is catholic. In her class there were moslems and at least one buddist. Although the school is catholic there was no discrimination against children of other religions or none. When my daughter made her confirmation I remember her moslem friend at the party in the priest's garden. There was no attempt to convert the children and the religious education included aspects of all religions.

My daughter now attends a catholic secondary school which has many moslem pupils also. In this day and age I can't see that religious intolerance would be put up with.

The local anglican primary school has a majority of catholic pupils because it is so popular.