School wants proof my child is a catholic

BostonB

Thaedydal wrote:

...
I know parents that gave into such pressures and then had thier child baptised and made a memeber of the church so they could have thier 'day' with the rest of the class ...

They need to grow a backbone, not give into their childrens whims. tbh I don't believe anyone would go to all that trouble to have their child excluded from faith instruction then backdown to a 7yr old. If thats a reason for removing faith instruction, thats also an argument for removing pagan and other religious holidays and festivals too, not just from schools but also from the work place. Xmas, Halloween, Easter, and those of other faiths etc.

ArthurDent

BostonB wrote:

You have the choice to bring your child to a non religious school. It will take effort but its up to the individual if they think its worth the effort and if their views are that strongly opposed to the system in any specific school. Also children often have the choice of not sitting in RE class if thats what the parents wish, and the school can facilitate it. If the school does not facilitate it don't put you kids in that school. I don't see whats hard about that.

You must object to all faith schools then, because they indoctrinate their religion?

BostonB while you are right in what you are saying, I think you are being very blase about the current situation. Of course you should as a parent exercise your duties and if as part of that you don't want your child to receive religious instruction you should try and find a suitable school for your child. However there are currently only 41 multidenominational schools in the whole country - over 98% of all primary schools are denominational and they are legally obliged to uphold the ethos of their patron. So saying that its up to parents to do their homework and chose a place that has access to multidenominational schools is not as easy as it sounds. Don't you think that the current situation may not be the most equitable and/or desirable one?

As to your suggestion that parents may withdraw their child from RE class - this is allowed by law, however in practise often what happens is that the children not receiving RE are told to sit down the back of the class, read books etc- as there are no extra teachers to suervise these kids out of their class. And particularly around times of preparation for sacraments confession, communion and confirmation the art work/singing etc done in school is based around these celebrations. Not exactly "cherishing all of our children equally" is it.

Nevyn

BostonB wrote:

You have the choice to bring your child to a non religious school.

There are no non denomational primary schools in this country there are some multidenominational schools which are patroned by a charity with all the parents invovled working very hard to get the schools up and running but such is the demand that the charity can not consider taking on the patronage currently of any more new schools.

BostonB wrote:

It will take effort but its up to the individual if they think its worth the effort and if their views are that strongly opposed to the system in any specific school.

There are parents who got involved with the process of starting up a different school to the main stream christain patronaged school and by the time the school was built thier child for whom's sake they got invovled in the process
was past primary school age.

BostonB wrote:

Also children often have the choice of not sitting in RE class if thats what the parents wish, and the school can facilitate it. If the school does not facilitate it don't put you kids in that school. I don't see whats hard about that.

Sitting out RE is one issue but the prays at the start and end of school, grace before and after lunch and all the other ways that are used to indoctrinate are wrong imho unless every child in that room is of that faith and thier parents want them intructed so.

BostonB wrote:

You must object to all faith schools then, because they indoctrinate their religion?

Nope, if that is what all the parents of all the chldren want then that is fine.
Currently there are parents who do not want this option but there is not the choice for them to homeschool or an alternative school with in reasonible traveling distance.

BostonB wrote:

thats also an argument for removing pagan and other religious holidays and festivals too, not just from schools but also from the work place. Xmas, Halloween, Easter, and those of other faiths

That is happening there was no dressing up this year for hollow'een for any of the children in my local school as there were children who due to their faith could not take part so to be fair to all the children it was discontinued.

Religious holidays should be celebrated with in the religious communities to which they are relavant. Our schools are no longer those types of religious communities if they are including childrenthat are not of thier faith.


Lmklad every parent wants thier child's school to be close to home for a whole varity of reasons and most of them are to do with thier child's safety.
We don't live in parishes any more we live in comminites and that is a big socail adjustment.

limklad

BostonB wrote:

They need to grow a backbone, not give into their childrens whims. tbh I don't believe anyone would go to all that trouble to have their child excluded from faith instruction then backdown to a 7yr old. If thats a reason for removing faith instruction, thats also an argument for removing pagan and other religious holidays and festivals too, not just from schools but also from the work place. Xmas, Halloween, Easter, and those of other faiths etc.

Kids love holidays no matter what it is. If only I knew about Jewish and Moslem or even voodoo or any other holidays as a kid, I too would be looking towards having those holidays off school. By hiding the other faiths or non-faith beliefs will damage the child more by confusion. I found other faiths and belief curious as a kid. But not all kids are curious. By showing kids that their are differences in belief and showing them the common things like tolerance, love and respect will help us all in getting on in this limited space on this planet.

Yes I know kids bugs parents, and parents needs to prepare to talk to their kids about it. I know some kids who do not like religion and hates first communion and confirmation and ask their parents that they did not want to go. They were the same ones who had problems learning and felt left out because they could not say prayers. There is nothing wrong with kids in non-catholic faith with their parents seeing other Catholics friends celebrate their sacraments. They are always welcome to come and No they are not expect to join in the prayers. They can just sit there quietly. The kids can play and have fun afterwards. As I said my first post here if an imam (Moslem) child in a Catholic school and a priest can get on, there is hope for us all.

BostonB

I'll quote what I said earlier...

BostonB wrote:

....Obviously as the population is changing the schools system need to change to reflect those needs. But since you are aware of the situation, and you have a kid what are you going to do? You can't wait for for the entire school system to change over night. If you are so opposed to your child having religious education, or being part of that system at all. You'd think you'd make provisions and make alternative arrangements. For many that means moving to an catchment area of preferred schools, or being on a list from when they are born, or making arrangements to transport the child to and from school.

The situation is far from ideal. You have to deal with the situation that exists. Not the one you'll like to exist. There are many catholic's (for exmaple) who can't get into their local catholic schools. But have to go out side of their area, be that parish or community. That applies to primary and secondary schools. What defines a reasonable travelling distance to school? Theres not enough school places. This has been shouted from high by local groups in some places for years. The Govt is ignoring it. Thats not the fault of the faith schools.

Do you mean no faith or Non-denominational?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-denominational_Christianity

Of course the govt should provide more school places and a % should be multidenominational and non denomational if the demand is there. But does that mean that faith schools should be vilified and abolished? Do religions have a right to set up and run schools and teach their faith at all? Exactly how do you restrict religious holidays and celebrations (St Patricks Day, Xmas etc) to within "religious communities" only? Does not religion play a least a small part in culture?

I dunno for me its the same issue if I wanted my child to go to an Irish school. You simply have to move to be within commuting distance of one if thats your wish.

limklad

Thaedydal wrote:

Lmklad every parent wants thier child's school to be close to home for a whole varity of reasons and most of them are to do with thier child's safety.

I know so do I, You got to remember it is a Private religious school, which provides a service for the government. If the schools reject kids and have space for them then that is a problem and I would disagree and I would embarrassed the priest and the school for been hypocritical and quote the very basic Christians teaching. I am in favor letting other denotations into our religious school as it gives kids a broad knowledge of other in the differences in the world and to be more tolerance and to have understanding. You experience to other side our society bad attitude we grew up with, which is different in other Catholics countries. It is so easy to blame the church since 97% or so are Catholics in the first place.

But what I would disagree with, people from one religion or non-religion from interfering with a Private religious school ethos, The non- dominations kids are allowed to play or do something else while Catholics kids have to keep on learning about their religion. Again you are blaming the Private catholic school for the government blunder for not providing the facilities for other dominations in which the catholic accepted in the first place.

The government is providing funds to educate all citizens of this country, and funds should be available to all types of school. If you look at the other argument, The catholic school is funding the education of non-Catholics from collections in church and the church manage with the help of donations from their congregation and donation form others to provide an education to the kids of our society. The Catholic Church is not perfect, and has problems like other religions and organizations, but who is perfect?

If a Moslem or any other non/faith school is next door to me and I wanted to send my kid there, then I have to accept that it is different than what I like it to be. It does not give me the right to change their doctrine.

Just to repeat and summarized my views about my Private Catholic run schools.
The schools run by the most part as a public school until numbers get too large or space for kids are full. Otherwise they do not reject kids of any faith or none, and they do not teach these non-catholic kids about religion unless they have the permission of the parents. The church picks up the responsibility because the State failed miserably from the beginning of the State and still continues since then. I am not happy with the current approach of the state, but instead leaves it in the hands of others to do the work for them.

The main culprit for not having a public school is the State – Otherwise the government, and us the citizens of this country who voted for them.

Thaedydal wrote:

We don't live in parishes any more we live in comminites and that is a big socail adjustment.

It a huge change but a welcome change in my opinion.

Nevyn

I am not blaming the school or the churches but the system which has things the way they are.

limklad

Thaedydal wrote:

I am not blaming the school or the churches but the system which has things the way they are.

But OTK did as so many others in this thread.

Yes more pressure need to be exerted to the government for more funds not divert funds (as the population size increased) as they have done in the past. You really need to keep an eye on them or else they pull the rug from under you.

I would love if there was a better choice so I could send my future kids to. I prefer choice or to be more exact better competition, as this will force schools to compete for kids so parents can give them the best education possible. I know some parents who sent catholic to Protestants (mortal enemies :rolleyes: ) run schools for better education because the local Catholic was poor in education and vica versa. This went on right through the troubles in the North. It did not make a blind difference only broaden the children attitude and more open to others.

One thing, when I was in primary school the local priests convince the teachers to teach some social science to 5th and 6th class, they look at him and taught he was mad or losing it, he was way ahead of the others schools in this regards. And this was a priest who I did not like. This was way before all of the scandals came out. They end up teaching it only to 6th class.

One question who does your kids get on in your local Private catholics school? Are they forcce to learn the regilion or have they get on well with the other kids.

Nevyn

BostonB wrote:

But does that mean that faith schools should be vilified and abolished?

Nope the system needs to be.

BostonB wrote:

Do religions have a right to set up and run schools and teach their faith at all? Exactly how do you restrict religious holidays and celebrations (St Patricks Day, Xmas etc) to within "religious communities" only? Does not religion play a least a small part in culture?

It can do but it isnot the end all and be all.

The holiday time of school can stay the same but ideally they schould not be celebrated in schools.

BostonB

Thaedydal wrote:

Nope the system needs to be.



It can do but it isnot the end all and be all.

The holiday time of school can stay the same but ideally they schould not be celebrated in schools.

No ones arguing the system stuffed. But why vilify faith schools for a problem not of the Govt making. Its in their nature to promote their own religion. Thats why they are there.

Why are schools distinct from the rest of society? If its ok in one place why is it not ok in another. I could be mistaken and am open to correction but I thought places like Educate Together deal with all cultural events, even religious ones. Not, ignore them. Maybe I'm mistaken.

limklad

Thaedydal wrote:

The holiday time of school can stay the same but ideally they schould not be celebrated in schools.

Are you saying that a private Religious school cannot celebrate its events? again this is an outsider interfering in another religion who has welcome and open it’s door to outsiders who have no other place to go.

If it a public school you are talking about, then I would agree.

ArthurDent

limklad wrote:

Are you saying that a private Religious school cannot celebrate its events? again this is an outsider interfering in another religion who has welcome and open it’s door to outsiders who have no other place to go.

If it a public school you are talking about, then I would agree.

You do realise that there are no "public" primary schools in Ireland - all are privately owned by either one of the denominations or registered charities such as Educate Together. All national schools are owned privately and managed by BOM for their patrons, even though the teachers are paid by, vetted by, under contract to the Dept of Education. This is the wonderful "out" the Minister for Education spoke about when asked by Prime Time last week why the Dept has no responsibility for paedophiles abusing children in day schools

BostonB

..or school places it seems.

iguana

It seems to me that if I have children in Ireland my only real choice is to homeschool them while at the same time my tax money is going to fund schools that I would have a moral problem with sending my children to. Great system.:(

Does anybody know what way "project schools" are run? Are they also run by religious institutions? Some relatives of mine sent their kids to the one in Limerick and they had no religious education.

ETA, I actually looked it up myself. It's and Educate Together school, so I guess there might have been some type of religious education, but obviously not of the type children get before their communion, for example.

limklad

ArthurDent wrote:

You do realise that there are no "public" primary schools in Ireland - all are privately owned by either one of the denominations or registered charities such as Educate Together. All national schools are owned privately and managed by BOM for their patrons, even though the teachers are paid by, vetted by, under contract to the Dept of Education. This is the wonderful "out" the Minister for Education spoke about when asked by Prime Time last week why the Dept has no responsibility for paedophiles abusing children in day schools

I had this in my first post in the previous page, if you took the time to read it, also start from the top of the page and read down to follow the story, for each reply!

Limklad wrote:

At the end of the Day, the Politicians are still using private schools to get them out of trouble. That decision is now only coming to affect you because nobody predicted that the population would lose their faith and that others, of other non/faiths would be immigrated here. The church is taking still taking responsibility for the education of children of all faiths, because the state has not supplied the infracture (buildings and land).

AND again from my first post

Limklad wrote:

Just to repeat and summarized my views about my Private Catholic run schools.
The schools run by the most part as a public school until numbers get too large or space for kids are full. Otherwise they do not reject kids of any faith or none, and they do not teach these non-catholic kids about religion unless they have the permission of the parents. The church picks up the responsibility because the State failed miserably from the beginning of the State and still continues since then. I am not happy with the current approach of the state, but instead leaves it in the hands of others to do the work for them. Stating that not all state –Public Schools in other countries has been successful compare to private school.

The main culprit for not having a public school is the State – Otherwise the government, and us the citizens of this country who voted for them.

The answer is simple, They do not have to take reasonability when others will do it for them.

Nevyn

iguana wrote:

It's and Educate Together school, so I guess there might have been some type of religious education, but obviously not of the type children get before their communion, for example.

There children are taught about differning religions and what beliefs they hold they are not given specific religious instruction.

The answer is simple, They do not have to take reasonability when others will do it for them.

This has started to change with a charter being drawn up for the first VEC prmary school. There was a need for a school and none of the 'regular' patrons wanted to take it on and hence the Dept of education have had to make something up.

OTK

Thaedydal wrote:

This has started to change with a charter being drawn up for the first VEC prmary school. There was a need for a school and none of the 'regular' patrons wanted to take it on and hence the Dept of education have had to make something up.

Do you know why the church chose not to run this school?

Nevyn

They do not have the rescourses and do not see that they have a need to put in another school.

It used to be that the local parishes had a fair bit of money from collections plus there would be nuns and priests working in the schools and thier 'wages' would be invested in the school but this is not the case an more.

limklad

OTK wrote:

Do you know why the church chose not to run this school?

Do you want the church to run the school especially with your attitude you have against them? Why would they want to when they have schools already in place? The church only ran schools in the first place because there was no facilities provides by the state and because they want to educate their congregational to bring them out of the ignorant attitudes and poor esteem that society had over the centuries. They took on this huge responsibility because the government did not want to and took the easier option. They had a choice to setup a public school system. If you look throughout the history of this country you see that it was church in this country who took on the education of people, NOT society, as was done in many other countries.
Again you need to research history and understand what was going on in those times and the choices that was made and the poor esteem our people had and that the British instilled over many generations as Stupid paddies, in which our people believed since the British had power over us. But we still rebelled and rightly so against oppression. You need to read the history and see the literature in newspapers, painting, and posters during the centuries under British rule and the degrading attitude many us Irish had against ourselves.

Limklad wrote:

It was society/individuals who abuse their positions, not the religion who preaches abuse of others. It was not the church who tried to have me abusing others but other people who where not happy/Good self esteem/comfortable with themselves who had hatred/jealousy of others.

Limklad wrote:

There is one comment that in a school that the priest and teacher is covering up an abuse by other teachers. Report any abuse to the Guards. This is a civil matter. Abuse is not religion thing. Abusing children is not acceptable in any society or religion and by ME You think that the ones who are covering it up know better by now, but by covering it up only implicate them as abusers too by allowing it to happen. It is their choice as human being, not the faith decisions.

The Catholic church is not above the law. Yes they have used the Vatican status of an independent state, but this will always backfire on them. Protecting abusers without holding them to account, always backfire.

Limklad wrote:

Pedophiles are always attracted to any position of POWER. Wherever it involves power covers such as parents/religion/sports/Guards/teachers/bosses etc. And also Yes, power has gotten to individuals within the church and corrupted them and some took hard line, because there was no alternative to them (you need to read up on the history to understand this fully). I call this short term gain (total control) and long term pain (the disaster that they have now), in which the church is now been punished for their misdeeds.

Wolfs in sheep clothing what I have to say here. Those within the church hierarchy betrayed what they were supposed to preach. But not all, lots of priests fought against this and was force to shut up or leave the church. There are many documentaries on RTE and British television about this. It always happens in all societies and different religions in each different countries. Go and do the research, If you still not believe me? The US has documentaries about different religious faiths that set them up and used their power over for abusing kids and others.

Abuse is not religion thing unless specified within their doctrine. For Christians, I can definitely tell you it not because it contradicts what Jesus told us what to do, which is I repeat is to taught to love, tolerate, forgive and respect. Another of his teaching is to “Love one another, love your enemy as your friend”

It is only individuals (i.e. man or woman) who abuses, not the religion. Racists under the covering of sheep clothing twists the facts on ignorant people because they know they have control and power.
Again I repeat wolfs in sheep clothing and reread my quote.

Limklad wrote:

Pedophiles are always attracted to any position of POWER. Wherever it involves power covers such as parents/religion/sports/Guards/teachers/bosses etc.

You too are an abuser (reread your posts) since you slander innocent priests and other members within the Catholic church who tried to prevent the abuse.

Limklad wrote:

½ and hour a day was very small for a religious school. I was taught to love, tolerate, forgive and respect others (in huge letters on the wall) in religion (catholic) class no matter what they are and this was back in the old days (80s) when the church had total rule in schools. Another moto “Love one another, love your enemy as your friend”.

Again you also need to learn the history of society and understand why Gays (I have nothing against gays or any other people for I am taught tolerance of others – reread my post to see my views on this) and Pedophiles, (Wolves in sheep clothing) used the church as a hiding place. The Pedophiles used position of power and access to abuse kids. In those days, Who would have though that a priest would abuse kids this way. Those abusers did not properly teach Jesus teaching, had their own alternative agenda with was contrary to Jesus teaching. Those who covered it up also betrayed Jesus as well as every other good Catholics.
Where ever any abuse is taking place it must be uncovered and exposed. This can only be done best by those who are not racist themselves and do not have their own selfish agendas, because society will see them as abusers to who wants control (power) or for revenge.

Limklad wrote:

The Politicians have since done nothing to resolve this because the parents that is affecting did not ask them to start a new PUBLIC school system in their area when they first had kids. (4 years + pregnancy time) is a long time for any parents & Politicians to get off their asses to do something about it.

And also in another of my posting

Limklad wrote:

I would love if there was a better choice so I could send my future kids to. I prefer choice or to be more exactly better competition, as this will force schools to compete for kids so parents can give them the best education possible.

I do sincerely hope that you do not send you kids to any school or any activities where you know there is any abuse taking place. If that is true, then you are no better if not worst than the Pedophiles/abusers themselves.

Talk to the school and get to know the teachers, watch the kids and if they are happy then you know things are fine. That also depends in how you treats your kids and rear them up. Love (unconditionally – not any other methods) and respect your kids, you can do this best by your actions as well as words, because your actions and expressions are worth far more by millions than your words are. People can always lie to themselves and then to others.

limklad

Thaedydal wrote:

They do not have the rescourses and do not see that they have a need to put in another school.

It used to be that the local parishes had a fair bit of money from collections plus there would be nuns and priests working in the schools and thier 'wages' would be invested in the school but this is not the case an more.

The Department of education has one major resource, That is Money. They can use this to build Public schools and provide a choice for parents. But this would leave them open to be sued if any abuses happens under their care.
Remember these politicians do not want this responsibility, because it easier to clean their hands of it by farming out the job, when others private schools are looking for money therefore it a private service that is provided and that the department of education wants. Besides funding the private schools, the only thing they do is to set the syllabus that they are responsible for. Please read the other thread where this argument is taking place.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055069475

Also note that over the centuries many priest and nuns did these jobs for very little money and a lot of sacrifice on their part. Yes there was some who were greedy who took the lots monies to provide their own selfish living. This does not give the right to anyone to slander the innocents’ people by generalizing what actions tooked by the abusers.

Nevyn

If they hae money they are nto willing to sped it even on the building grants for the schools that are in portacabins and those will waiting.

limklad

Thaedydal wrote:

If they hae money they are nto willing to sped it even on the building grants for the schools that are in portacabins and those will waiting.

Again they do not want to take responsibility and still escaping it as shown on Prime Time!! They do not want to mess their hands and you cannot blame them when the problems happened! It is easier for them to throw money than take responsibility, or else they will not get elected!
We have to change this attitude by electing the ones who will change and put in more choices. Maybe we should start a new Political party "Another choice" and the campaign "Public schools for kids"

ArthurDent

limklad wrote:

Again they do not want to take responsibility and still escaping it as shown on Prime Time!! They do not want to mess their hands and you cannot blame them when the problems happened! It is easier for them to throw money than take responsibility, or else they will not get elected!
We have to change this attitude by electing the ones who will change and put in more choices. Maybe we should start a new Political party "Another choice" and the campaign "Public schools for kids"

so which parties support this at moment - don't think I've seen it in any manifesto yrt

limklad

ArthurDent wrote:

so which parties support this at moment - don't think I've seen it in any manifesto yrt

NONE - It is too HOT AN ISSUE.

limklad

A Great politician will take on responsibility on difficult situations, getting the understanding of why the problems exist, and then carry out comprehensive solutions to the problems, despite what objections and pressures s/he gets, even putting their job at risk. Poor ones just constantly blame and gives lame excuses or lame solutions or cave in to public or social pressure, water down solutions so they can get elected next time.

Seloth

I'm just going to jump in here,I read the first Couple of posts,Just tell the school that your child isint baptized,

When I was in Primary school there were children in the school that werent Catholic.

limklad

Seloth wrote:

I'm just going to jump in here,I read the first Couple of posts,Just tell the school that your child isint baptized,

When I was in Primary school there were children in the school that werent Catholic.

Yes we know, we discussed this earlier in this long thread. OKT eventually talked to the school and they told him that it was not a problem.

Thanks for bring this up again for proving the point that the Private Catholic school operates as a Public School until numbers get too large(full) and it does not rejects kids on the matter on non or any faith. To do so goes against the basic teaching of Jesus. It provides a service to the local community.

The only time the school rejects kids (of any type) when they misbehave too badly (expelled or suspended). This is the same in all types of schools all over the world.

m'lady

I also do not understand if you have such a low opinion of the church why you want to send your child to a catholic school? If it is because of its location then you should reconsider. I heard the same about the education together schools being hard to get into, but I got my daughter into one the year she was due to start school, and she had not been on the waiting list. I would think if you approached the educate together school and explained your problem they may accomodate you..

skinner2x

GAA widow wrote: »

OTK :


A baptismal cert does verify that a child is Catholic but the main reason it is requested in schools is so that there is a baptismal cert on file for when the child makes their Communion and Confirmation, in a school where Catholic children are prepared for the sacraments. Also a baptismal cert verifies the child's age, so it saves having to request a birth cert also.

Most Catholic schools accept children of all denominations - where I teach there's Catholics, Protestants, Methodists, Baptists, Lutherans, Seventh Day Adventists, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Russian Orthodox, even Wicans.

Ring the school, tell them your child isn't Catholic, ask if it's an issue and see what they say. They'll probably ask for a birth cert instead to verify your child's age.

Very interesting , GAA widow. You may have a point here. They would have no reason to question whether whether the child is catholic or not. The problem the OP has in this case is that the OP has lied to the school board, and this may affect the decision making.
I am from a rural area, a neighbour of mine married a protestant girl, and there kid is brought up protestant. They were refused entry to the local catholic school , and have to bring the kid to a protestant school in the nearest town. As mentioned earlier in the thread , this can exclude the child from the local kids in the area.
The school has a limited no. of places, so they priorotise catholics. I think we missing the main issue issue, and thats the the schools haven't enough places, and need expansion. The descimination is only being forced by the lack of places. (in my area , you apply for the school before the kid is born!!)

BostonB

How did you find this thread? Its a year and a half since it was last posted?