School wants proof my child is a catholic

fly_agaric

Kind of sorry I opened my beak on this thread (I never post here usually) but it looked very interesting (for a few reasons incl. the mendacity people will engage in to get their children into the school they want!)...

Ayla wrote:

Well, by God, if the changes started 20 years ago, then we should be seeing some evolution in the school system by now!

Why would there be a big demand for changes to the education system if almost all of the people in the country until under a decade ago were devoutly Catholic to the extent of massgoing every Sunday or possibly somewhat lapsed Catholics who didn't mind the Church having a big role in their kid's education? Protestant-ethos/run schools for a small and shrinking number of Protestants and everyone is pretty much covered.

Who would have fought to take control of education away from churches anyway? I mean you know who would oppose it of course (the Church, and those devout Catholics, probably Protestants too).

The changes to Irelands' demographics in the past 1/2 decade combined with the dislike of the Catholic Church stirred up by the exposure of the child abuse scandals and the fact that people have become less religious in the same time period might mean there could be more of a mood for change now, but it still would be a battle I'd say.

As Thaedydal mentioned, alot of the newer schools are going to be outside of Catholic church control now and multi or non-denominational (or perhaps Islamic or protestant, which you might also disagree with) so probably the Church's influence on education will wane over the coming years rather than a big battle being fought to make schools non or multi-denominational...

In any case, the "changes" I was referring to were just an increase in Irish peoples' willingness to challenge certain Catholic doctrines (and their reflection in the laws here) + the authority of priests and bishops and their political clout etc. Not the massive change in attitude implied by actually wanting to take control of education completely away from the religious!

OTK

OK so thanks for all the replies. I will write to my TDs and request an educate together school but I doubt it will do any good for my kid (maybe the next one).

It came as a surprise to me to learn that the national schools are not owned by the state.

I think the history of child rape and cover-up in the church is of direct relevance when choosing a school. While more than 95% of priests may not have actually abused children, the church has been found to have systematically and comprehensively covered up for those who did, and in doing so, allowed many more children to be attacked. I cannot see how such a morally corrupt organisation could be allowed to continue running state school boards.

I just rang my solicitor and he thinks that altering a document in order to obtain a service by deception (in this case an education) may well apply but I'd be unlikely to be prosecuted. He recommends prevaricating.

MiniMetro wrote:

God help us all that you are actually a parent.

Yes, I'm a terrible person. Thing is I've never raped a child or belonged to an organisation that put its own self-preservation ahead of the protection of children, so I'm not going to feel that bad.

Trinity

I would talk to the school.

the Department of education seem to have put a lot of time and money into social inclusion, and there are more educate togethers opening all the time. One just opened in Balbriggan for example.

Again if you want me to look into it feel free to PM me.

GAA widow

OTK :
One question - did you ask the school whether or not they accepted children of different religions in the school?


The school asking for a baptismal cert does not automatically mean they are anti all other faiths!

You said that you told the school your child was a Catholic, that is why you were asked for a baptismal cert. If you told the school that your child was another religion/no religion you would not have been asked for one.

A baptismal cert does verify that a child is Catholic but the main reason it is requested in schools is so that there is a baptismal cert on file for when the child makes their Communion and Confirmation, in a school where Catholic children are prepared for the sacraments. Also a baptismal cert verifies the child's age, so it saves having to request a birth cert also.

Most Catholic schools accept children of all denominations - where I teach there's Catholics, Protestants, Methodists, Baptists, Lutherans, Seventh Day Adventists, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Russian Orthodox, even Wicans.

Ring the school, tell them your child isn't Catholic, ask if it's an issue and see what they say. They'll probably ask for a birth cert instead to verify your child's age.

scrattletrap

The school my children go to is a catholic school and a baptismal cert was required. I am not catholic but got my boys baptised on the same day (one was almost four and the other almost two) for the sole purpose of getting them into a good school. To me the piece of paper meant nothing but if it meant my children had a better education I was all for it.
Since then my eldest has had his first communion with his class but he has never attended mass outside of school.

SarahMc

Are they not run by republicans? Is this a misconception?

You haven't exactly done your research on educational options have you? There are dozens of gaelscoileanna in Dublin. The vast majority of children attending come from English speaking families. Free Irish speaking secondary schools send more children to universities than any of the fee paying schools.

Parents in gaelscoillenna (like Educate Together) are actively involved in the running of the school. Classes tend to be small. Plus there is loads of research to show children who are taught through a dual language at an early age perform better at other subjects, especially maths.

Also, children who start school at 5 do much better socially and academically than those who start at 4 - but thats a whole other thread.

Blush_01

OTK wrote:

OK so thanks for all the replies. I will write to my TDs and request an educate together school but I doubt it will do any good for my kid (maybe the next one).

It came as a surprise to me to learn that the national schools are not owned by the state.

I think the history of child rape and cover-up in the church is of direct relevance when choosing a school. While more than 95% of priests may not have actually abused children, the church has been found to have systematically and comprehensively covered up for those who did, and in doing so, allowed many more children to be attacked. I cannot see how such a morally corrupt organisation could be allowed to continue running state school boards.

I just rang my solicitor and he thinks that altering a document in order to obtain a service by deception (in this case an education) may well apply but I'd be unlikely to be prosecuted. He recommends prevaricating.

Yes, I'm a terrible person. Thing is I've never raped a child or belonged to an organisation that put its own self-preservation ahead of the protection of children, so I'm not going to feel that bad.

Your wife told them your child was catholic. They probably hear that from hundreds of parents. Are you surprised that they want proof? If she hadn't lied, it probably wouldn't be an issue. So in my opinion, you're in the wrong, regardless of the rights or wrongs of the past.

Come clean. See what the story is then.

Honesty is not that bloody expensive, people should be better able to afford it in this day and age.

OTK

GAA widow wrote:

OTK :
One question - did you ask the school whether or not they accepted children of different religions in the school?

Catholics get preference as do relatives of existing pupils. The school is oversubscribed.

Ring the school, tell them your child isn't Catholic, ask if it's an issue and see what they say. They'll probably ask for a birth cert instead to verify your child's age.

They'd probably want to know why my wife lied to them.

scrattletrap wrote:

The school my children go to is a catholic school and a baptismal cert was required. I am not catholic but got my boys baptised on the same day (one was almost four and the other almost two) for the sole purpose of getting them into a good school. To me the piece of paper meant nothing but if it meant my children had a better education I was all for it.
Since then my eldest has had his first communion with his class but he has never attended mass outside of school.

Forced conversion.

SarahMc wrote:

You haven't exactly done your research on educational options have you? There are dozens of gaelscoileanna in Dublin. The vast majority of children attending come from English speaking families. Free Irish speaking secondary schools send more children to universities than any of the fee paying schools.

I know nothing about them. I just imagined they had something to do with anti-brit pro-lifers.

Also, children who start school at 5 do much better socially and academically than those who start at 4 - but thats a whole other thread.

he's not starting school until next year when he's five.

deisemum

My children go to a catholic school and you have to be from the parish as it's over subscribed and priority is given to catholics then non catholic. Unlike other schools in the area you are never told or get to see where you are on the list.

However if you are a certain profession and not even living in the parish you will be accepted and others who are entitled to a place don't get in depending on their parents job title.

In catholic schools it's usually the parish priest who's the chairman of the BOM. The catholic church are still covering up abuses. In our school the parish priest and principal cover up any abuse carried out by teachers against children and when a parent will not back down you are threatened in the worst possible way.

School and church should be separate.

Madam

I think OTK has a whole different agenda and it's far from which school he wants to send his sprog too. Why would you send your child to a school when you so obviously hate the whole ethos of what that school stands for.

Nevyn

Why would you not want to send your child to the closest school ?
Esp if it is the best school in the area.

Unfortunatly the vast majority of primary schools have a religous ethos and there is not a real vaible option yet for most people.

SarahMc

Agree with above, this is a huge decision, and should be based not just on the fact that the Catholic school is more geographically convenient. The school you want to send your child to, is a catholic school, with a catholic ethos, which will strongly influence how religion and sex ed are taught. If these views are diametrically opposed to your own, its time to do some serious research on other options open to you.

(and sorry, assumed from op that child was starting when he was 4)

kippy

My daughter went to the local national school, in Dublin 15, which is catholic. In her class there were moslems and at least one buddist. Although the school is catholic there was no discrimination against children of other religions or none. When my daughter made her confirmation I remember her moslem friend at the party in the priest's garden. There was no attempt to convert the children and the religious education included aspects of all religions.

My daughter now attends a catholic secondary school which has many moslem pupils also. In this day and age I can't see that religious intolerance would be put up with.

The local anglican primary school has a majority of catholic pupils because it is so popular.

I think some people have lost sight of the thread.......
Its not about religions intolerance or anything like it-religious intolerance within schools is not accepted in any way.
If a school is oversubscribed, as the OP points out is the case, the school has a right to decide on who gets in based on religion.In this case catholic being the deciding factor, which has been pointed out is also common among other religiously run schools. It has also been pointed out that schools have a right to use religion as the deciding factor.
Some people believe this to be incorrect-yet havent come up with a viable alternative to be used when schools are oversubscribed.
Location is not a viable alternative. Nor is age. What next?
The OP's obvious complete hatred and lack of respect for the catholic church in general is tainting this thread. The catholic church have a big say in the running of many of our schools, not all people within the church are bad people-the organisation has been at fault in the past however, if you dont want to "give them your money" or access to your kids,dont send them to a catholic school-it is that simple.

You seem to have a lot of preconceived notions about many organisations running these schools. You statements regarding the running of the GaelScoileanna is shocking! You've obviously not done any research into the options available to you and are prepared to overlook your irk of the catholic chuch to make life easier on yourself. Then when you find out that they actually check the vaildity of your application, you blame it all on the raping of kids by the church in years gone by?
If you dont agree with the selection process, write to the BOM or your local representative.
I have very little sympathy for your current predicament but hope you find a solution to keep all parties happy.

Kippy

OTK

There is a clear difference between condemning an organisation for its failings and condemning every individual member of an organisation. An organisation has an existence on its own apart from its members. It can own property, take people to court, borrow money, deal in stocks, and it has its own value system. In the case of the Catholic church, one of thosevalues was that child rape was a less serious crime than damaging the reputation of the church.

kippy wrote:

the organisation has been at fault in the past

Yes that's one way of putting it.

however, if you dont want to "give them your money" or access to your kids,dont send them to a catholic school-it is that simple.

Not that simple though, is it? I have already given then my money in the form of my taxes which pay the salaries and costs of the school. If my kid doesn't attend the local school I will have to pay additional costs in time and transport to ferry the kid elsewhere.

There are endless ways to allocate school places in an oversubscribed school other than religion.

I see no reason why distance from the school should not be used.
Or lottery
Or auction the places off
Or transfer capacity from a less popular school

Victor

Ayla wrote:

Irregardless of where the school is based, the selection criteria should never be a child's religion in a national, state-sponsored school

Its not, its a religious, state-supported school.

Ayla wrote:

Why are the schools still owned by the churches

Because the state doesn't have the will, means or whereabouts to manage several thousand schools. Do you really want civil servants or the local resident's committee types running the school?

Also if the state takes over all the school, it also takes over all the scools from minority denominations, endangering those denominations.

Thaedydal wrote:

Because they happen to be the local school and they want the child to be able to walk to scholl and be in school with thier friend to be close to home.

But still they are driven to school.

kippy

Not that simple though, is it? I have already given then my money in the form of my taxes which pay the salaries and costs of the school. If my kid doesn't attend the local school I will have to pay additional costs in time and transport to ferry the kid elsewhere.

There are endless ways to allocate school places in an oversubscribed school other than religion.

I see no reason why distance from the school should not be used.
Or lottery
Or auction the places off
Or transfer capacity from a less popular school

We all pay taxes for services that many of us dont currently and never will utilise. Thats the taxation system for you-it doesnt bother me.
Distance from school cannot be used as house prices close to schools will inadvertantly jump to a higher level than that which they are already at. Not a goer at all, but it would obviously come into it if both kids satisfied the other criteria.
Auction places? So that the richer get first choice?
A lottery-not bad,could be a goer. Suggest it to your local representatives.
Transfer capacity-hmm, what do you mean by this? If the school six miles away has 20 free places, send 20 of the oversubscribed places to that school or move the 20 desk/chairs/space from the underscribed school.
You've condemed the organisation, fair enough, yet have no problem in lying to get your child into the organisations school. A bit ironic.
Kippy

Talliesin

mountainyman wrote:

The difficulty with the Educate Together schools is that it is basically a bunch of really posh people who get together to keep out the commoners; you won't get in. Is there a Gaelscoil in your area, they tend to be less religious.

Yes, when people aren't looking they hide the working class and immigrant kids in a basement or something. :rolleyes:

OTK

Victor wrote:

Because the state doesn't have the will, means or whereabouts to manage several thousand schools. Do you really want civil servants or the local resident's committee types running the school?

Do you believe the local parish priest is doing a better job under instruction from an archbishop?

kippy

Do you believe the local parish priest is doing a better job under instruction from an archbishop?

The local PP aint doing too bad if you want to send your kids to the school.

I assume if he were doing a bad job of running the school you would want to send your kids there and their selection criteria when oversubscribed wouldnt be so much of a problem for you.

Kippy

Kernel32

Madam wrote:

I think OTK has a whole different agenda and it's far from which school he wants to send his sprog too. Why would you send your child to a school when you so obviously hate the whole ethos of what that school stands for.

One of the biggest reasons I will not return to Ireland to raise my two kids is because of the 19th century student selection process used by publicly funded schools in Ireland. It's mind boggling in this day and age that religion plays such a role. I would be embarrassed to tell anyone outside of Ireland about it.

Where I live I have a choice. Public schools are completely non-denominational. There are various private religious schools to choose from also. There is a controversial program called school vouchers. Basically if you choose a private school you are entitled to tax back to use towards your child's education. Not near enough to cover tuition but at least its something.

Like the OP I have raised my kids non-denominational. We recently went looking for a preschool for my son. We found the most convenient at the best price and well run was a local Lutheran preschool. After struggling with it for a while we sent him there and he loves it. He gets exposed to some religious imagery and a pastor reads them a story once a month. I am willing to live with that if he has fun, learns a little and gets well taken care of. Making compromises when raising kids is all part of parenthood. I don't see any problem with OTK wanting to send his child to the school if he feels it is the best he can make of a bad and broken system.

Ayla

After contributing to this thread yesterday I went home from work and talked to my husband about it. I grew up in the States, so I know my opinions and arguments are based on growing up in a society where church & state don't mix (at least not in the educational system). But my husband grew up here and knew that most schools here are nested within some religious framework.

What he didn't know, however, was that the church actually holds the deeds to the school buildings and that the state obstansively rents the buildings. The church is then granted the responsibility of acting as trustee for the school and the educational regulations are decided by the archbishops/etc.

But what got him even more (and this has been the whole crux of my irritation with this situation) is that the educational system in this country makes it ok to discriminate against a 4-5 year old child based on the religious decisions of his/her parents. It puts the priority with the religion of the child so that kids of the "right" religion will be allowed into class, but those of the "wrong" religion may have to wait another 1-2 years before entering the classroom! And in many cases, it's wait that 1-2 years or force your child to commute to a school that's further away or not as good of a school. So in effect, the school system here is sacrificing the education of the child because he/she has the misfortune of having non-religious (or other religious) parents. Hmm...this still irks me.

How do you explain to your 4-5 year old, who's all excited to start school, that suddenly he/she can't start yet b/c they've been bumped from the enrollment list b/c they're not the right religion? How is that going to make the child feel? And how is that promoting a multi-religious, welcoming community?

No, Kippy, I don't agree with you that it's ok to enroll kids based on religion. I find it completely reprehensible. Age, fine. Previous siblings, fine. Location, fine. Religion, wrong.

The way I see it, religion should be taught in religious classes by the church/synagogue/etc. The church should not play a part in the mainstream, state-sponsored educational system.

Nevyn

kippy wrote:

Distance from school cannot be used as house prices close to schools will inadvertantly jump to a higher level than that which they are already at. Not a goer at all, but it would obviously come into it if both kids satisfied the other criteria.

Distance is already a factor.
Primary school at are usually set up on a parish by parish bases, or the children of the local christain parish to attend.
And in the cases of secondary schools there are already parents who buy a house in the 'catchment' area of the parish to try ensure a place for thier child. This is also starting to happen at primary school level.

There is a points race to get your child into primary school.
They get one for every critea on the enrollement policy.
Religion,
in the parish catchmen area,
sibling in the school currently/perviously
other family member in the school perivously ect.

One of the reson there is such a crisses in school places is that the schools
used to use the baptismal register for the parish to look ahead and have an
estimate of how many places there woudl be needed for 4 year to come.
This is no longer a vaild indicator as with the surge in houses being built,
the influx of people into the counrty and children not being baptised has thrown the numbers all out so that it is not until a school has to whittle down the numbers and apply the enrollemtn policy that it becomes clear there is an issue.

This is why schools have started keeping a enrollment/waiting list and you have applications being date and time stamped and babies that are still in the womb being placed on the list as Baby Murphy to try and ensure them a place at the school of choice of the parents( usually the local school ) and these are State funded National primary schools.

Another reason why the factor of the child being baptised is taken into consideration is that there is usually a small fee paid each year out of the parishes collection money paid per child to towards the running of the school.

Also the patron of the school has a responsibilty to pay towards the upkeep of the school both repairs and extendsions.

http://www.oasis.gov.ie/education/primary_education/ownership_of_schools.html wrote:

Building Costs

There is still a local or patron contribution to building costs. It is now limited to 5% of the total cost and capped at 63,486.90 euro.

For special schools and schools designated as disadvantaged, the limit is 5% up to a maximum of 12,697.38 euro
Renovations

The local/patron contribution to the cost of renovations is 10% up to a maximum of 31,743.45 euro. For special schools and schools designated as disadvantaged, the limit is 5% up to a maximum of 12,697.38 euro.

Again it is usually the people of the parish that fund these things via the collections at mass and the weekly collection arround the doors of the houses in the parish.

So primary schools are not free and most people are paying towards them twice.
If you are not a member or an active member of your parish then you are not contributing to the local school like the rest of the parish.
Sick, sad but true.

Personally I made a donation to the school each year to try cover some of this, so that neither myself or my childre are beholden to the local church.

This is one of the reasons that Educate Together is a charity and has to do a lot of fund raising to cover it's patron dues to the school which it helps to set up that are multidenominational.

kippy wrote:

The local PP aint doing too bad if you want to send your kids to the school.

I assume if he were doing a bad job of running the school you would want to send your kids there and their selection criteria when oversubscribed wouldnt be so much of a problem for you.

The board of management is more then just the parish priest there are many other people that make a school what it is and increase in numbers looking for places does not nescary reflect on the board or the parish
it is usually just supply and demand.

Basically it is a shitty system and one that need to be looked and over hauled and schools to be properly funded from the begining,
and properly funded in the ammount given for running the school so that a hike in oil prices doesn't have parents and the school worrying and having
bake sales and raffles to make up the short fall in the schools heating bill.

There are many problems that throwing money at can't help with and there
are some that can and really why can't we have 1/4 of a billion pumped into our schools out of the excess that is in the exchequer ?


That is one of the many questions I will be asking over the next few months.

Ste.phen

Ayla wrote:

The way I see it, religion should be taught in religious classes by the church/synagogue/etc. The church should not play a part in the mainstream, state-sponsored educational system.

Then the state should fully fund the education system so that the input from the religious orders isn't needed.

The way I see it, if a school is owned and run by a religious order, religion is a perfectly acceptable criterion for deciding who can go there, regardless of state funding.

Nevyn

Ayla wrote:

The way I see it, religion should be taught in religious classes by the church/synagogue/etc. The church should not play a part in the mainstream, state-sponsored educational system.

I agree but think there should still be an over view of the differing religions to create understanding, there should also be good citizenship classes taught.

Until the seperation of church and schools is sorted out we will continue to fail so many children in the area of sex and sexuality education.

Gurgle

OTK wrote:

Leaving aside the rights and wrongs of the state paying for sectarian discriminatory schools run by a paedophile club, how am i going to get my kid into the school?

Pleas please please, for the sake of the few things that are right about the Irish education system DO NOT let them away with this ****e.

Talk to the citizen's advice. If this school tries to deny your child an education because of religion, take the matter to your local TD, the minister for education, your lawyer and the press. You are (presumably) paying taxes same as the rest of us. You should not have to lie to get your child into your local school.

Nevyn

Igy wrote:

Then the state should fully fund the education system so that the input from the religious orders isn't needed.

The way I see it, if a school is owned and run by a religious order, religion is a perfectly acceptable criterion for deciding who can go there, regardless of state funding.

That would be perfectly fine if there was another option for parents, for most there is not.

Ayla

Igy wrote:

Then the state should fully fund the education system so that the input from the religious orders isn't needed.

The way I see it, if a school is owned and run by a religious order, religion is a perfectly acceptable criterion for deciding who can go there, regardless of state funding.

I agree with you here. Let the religious schools become private schools, in which parents (and the church) pay for the education, and let the state then have all of their funds for the public, non-denominational schools. Why is that such an impossible feat?

If the church wants a say in the educational system, and if parents feel that religion should be taught in school, they can pay for that education. But the growing population of non-denominational children must be addressed somehow. Why should the church get a "free ride" on the back of the government?

Nevyn

Because with the founding of the state the church stepped up and set up and ran all the schools, hospitals, orphanages and homes for wayward girls which ment the state didn't have to or spend money on these things and in exhange
the church gained a lot of power and sway over how things were done.

Yes as we have all seen over the last 10 years there were abuses as there was not the right checks and balances in place but there was a lot of good done as well.

But that was Ireland in the past and the church in most cases no longer have the funds or the wo/man power as vocations are at an all time low to run things so more and more get handed over to the state but in the cases of the primary school the church still holds sway.

kippy

I am fully aware of the location being a factor and know people who have spent a lot of extra money in getting a house in the "right" parish.
Catholic is still the majority religion in this country and the majority of people have no problems in sending their kids to catholic schools.

If you want to send your kid to a non catholic school perhaps it is you who should spend the extra money on doing this-seeing as most people are perfectly happy to see religion and education mixing at this level.
And again, I will highlight, that religion ONLY comes into the equation when the school is oversubscribed.
Oversubscription generally only happens in bigger towns and cities and in such cases there are usually other school choices available.

Religion and education has been mixed in schools successfully for years and years-it has not harmed society and dare I say it has helped keep it relatively stable.
I think people have the idea in their heads that religion is taught in these schools all day-this is not the case and while the curriculum does put aside time for religion, all the other subjects are well acounted for.

fly_agaric

Thaedydal wrote:

Because with the founding of the state the church stepped up and set up and ran all the schools, hospitals, orphanages and homes for wayward girls which ment the state didn't have to or spend money on these things and in exhange
the church gained a lot of power and sway over how things were done.

Yes. I suppose if the religious hadn't been there to do these things a large proportion of the population would have been totally illiterate with zero education and Ireland would have been an even more miserable and destitute place.