School wants proof my child is a catholic

GAA widow

OTK wrote:

Catholics get preference as do relatives of existing pupils. The school is oversubscribed.

Well, given that it is a Catholic school of course Catholic children should be given preference if it is oversubscribed - the school caters for their beliefs and why should preference be given to someone who regards them as "paediophile clubs" because of their affiliation with the Catholic church.

In most localities there is another option to the "Catholic school", be it COI, Educate Together or a Steiner School. If there isn't somesuch school in the immediate area there is often transportation arranged to get to the school.

I don't understand why you won't look into non-denominational schools or homeschooling to cater for the beliefs and moral values you want your child to be brought up with.

Like another poster said, I'm getting the impression that your issue is the Catholic Church, not about getting your child into a primary school.

MiniMetro

Ayla wrote:

Mini - I'm assuming you've made these statements based on the fact that Kernal's location is in the USA. But as an American, I'm not sure what you're saying?

Education in the States is completely non-denominational (to the extent that we can't say "under God" in our daily Pledge of Allegiance). While that may be a bit extreme, it also places value in the fact that Americans practice a variety of religions and no one should be above the others.

So what exactly were you getting at by your rather sarcastic comments?

If you read Kernel's post you will see that he/she said she sent her child to a Lutheran pre-school. She also said that she would be embarrassed to let anyone over there know how the education system over here was run. This implied that people over there would be genuinely shocked by the way things were run over here. Seeing as even preschool can have religious influences over there it would clearly not be preposterous to them in the slightest.

As an aside I feel that Americas approach to religious tolerance is not exactly the lead we should be following.

Kernel32

GAA widow wrote:

In most localities there is another option to the "Catholic school", be it COI, Educate Together or a Steiner School. If there isn't somesuch school in the immediate area there is often transportation arranged to get to the school.

In Ireland there are 3077 primary schools. 3028 are Catholic. 49 are multi/inter-denominational. The rest are unknown or of other religions. This breaks downs to 98.4% of all primary schools are Catholic. 1.5% are non-religious. I would be amazed if those 1.5% of schools were spread out so well that everyone has access to them. If so it must be a miracle like the loaves and fishes feeding the multitude.

Source:http://www.education.ie/servlet/blobservlet/pschools.xls

Darragh29

Thaedydal wrote:

Which mean that if parents are having to drive an hour or more to get thier children to school as there is no place for them in a school in thier locality, even if thier sibling is in alocal school or the case in Julianstown where junior infants are having to go to school from 2pm to 6pm then the state is still providing a minimum education.

Well that's true. The matter I suppose then moves from having a legal remedy to a political remedy, which would require the problem above to become an election issue. What I can't understand, without appearing to judge the OP or anyone in a similar situation, is the notion of bringing a child up without any religion. Did the OP not look at the totality of the situation and see that the best options in the future for his/her child were realised after the child would be baptised after birth. Do the benefits for the child not far outweigh the reasons not to have a child brought up a Catholic in what is a predominately Catholic country??? I fully accept and respect the right of any parent(s) to do what the OP has done, to bring a child up with no religion, but what I'm wondering is, did he/she have any really compelling reason to do this and in doing so, cause difficulties for the child having access to educational facilities that all his or her friends have access to, by virtue of the fact that they were baptised and are Catholics???

Kernel32

MiniMetro wrote:

If you read Kernel's post you will see that he/she said she sent her child to a Lutheran pre-school. She also said that she would be embarrassed to let anyone over there know how the education system over here was run. This implied that people over there would be genuinely shocked by the way things were run over here. Seeing as even preschool can have religious influences over there it would clearly not be preposterous to them in the slightest.

As an aside I feel that Americas approach to religious tolerance is not exactly the lead we should be following.

Again, you did not read my original post. My comment was related to the selection process used by schools to determine which children get a place and which don't. I do hear the arguments that religion only plays a role when over subscribed but that doesn't make it any better. And I stand by what I say. If I told people here that a child's place in a public school could depend on their religion people would think I am talking about a country in the middle east.

There are many options here for preschool. Some are run by churches and many are not. My wife and I choose a local preschool that is housed on a Lutheran school grounds based on the education it provides as well as it's convenience for transportation. There was no requirement to provide any type of documentation about religion but it was explained that there would be some limited christian teachings which I am fine with. Also, preschools are private schools that do not have any public money and are paid for out the parents pockets.

I also never implied that the United States should be held up as a beacon for religious tolerance. But the process for getting into the education system is much fairer here than in Ireland in my opinion and should be looked at when the time finally comes to overhaul it in Ireland.

MiniMetro

Kernel32 wrote:

In Ireland there are 3077 primary schools. 3028 are Catholic. 49 are multi/inter-denominational. The rest are unknown or of other religions. This breaks downs to 98.4% of all primary schools are Catholic. 1.5% are non-religious. I would be amazed if those 1.5% of schools were spread out so well that everyone has access to them. If so it must be a miracle like the loaves and fishes feeding the multitude.

Source:http://www.education.ie/servlet/blobservlet/pschools.xls

Wrong. There is the small matter of Church of Ireland schools.

Kernel32

MiniMetro wrote:

Wrong. There is the small matter of Church of Ireland schools.

You are correct, my calculations are off. 92% Catholic, 5% Church or Ireland and 1.5% non-religious.

Darragh29

Kernel32 wrote:

Again, you did not read my original post. My comment was related to the selection process used by schools to determine which children get a place and which don't. I do hear the arguments that religion only plays a role when over subscribed but that doesn't make it any better. And I stand by what I say. If I told people here that a child's place in a public school could depend on their religion people would think I am talking about a country in the middle east.

I think you're missing the point here. Public schools = schools in state ownership, held in trust for the people of Ireland/taxpayers. Catholic schools usually = a private site with a building on it which is owned & controlled by a religious organisation, held in trust for members of that religious organisation, an organisation that you have decided you want absolutely nothing to do with. Why should such an organisation that you hold in complete contempt, take on the responsibility of educating your child??? You are not comparing like with like when you are comparing public schools to religious run schools and the entry requirements to these two very different places.

I'm at a loss to understand why you want to child to be allowed into this particular Catholic school that you have issue with when your opinion of the organisation that controls the school in question is so low. You would appear to outwardly hate the church and all to do with it but you still want your child to be taught in a Catholic school??? What's that all about???

Moonbeam

I agree,in this day and age people should not be forced to send their kids to catholic schools and national schools should be there for all children of all denominations to learn together with out having catholicism forced upon them.

What does a priest or bishop know better then anybody else about educating kids?

Kernel32

I think you are mistaking me for the original poster. I have not made a single disparging remark about any religion.

Out of interest, can you provide any information on where these "Public schools = schools in state ownership, held in trust for the people of Ireland/taxpayers" are on Ireland? According to Oasis the "Catholic schools usually = a private site with a building on it which is owned & controlled by a religious organisation, held in trust for members of that religious organisation" is funded mainly by taxpayers money.

Darragh29

Kernel32 wrote:

I think you are mistaking me for the original poster. I have not made a single disparging remark about any religion.

Out of interest, can you provide any information on where these "Public schools = schools in state ownership, held in trust for the people of Ireland/taxpayers" are on Ireland? According to Oasis the "Catholic schools usually = a private site with a building on it which is owned & controlled by a religious organisation, held in trust for members of that religious organisation" is funded mainly by taxpayers money.

Reflecting on my own experiences, I went to a CBS school, this school and the site it was on was owned by the CBS and run by the Christian Brothers. There is a national school in my own neighbourhood which is owned by the Dept. of Education and is run by lay people. Here lies the key difference. One is owned exclusively by tax payers via the Dept. of Education and the other is owned by an organisation called the Christian Brothers. Saying that both organisations should have identical admission rules is just nonsense I think.

Nevyn

Darragh29 wrote:

There is a national school in my own neighbourhood which is owned by the Dept. of Education and is run by lay people. Here lies the key difference. One is owned exclusively by tax payers via the Dept. of Education and the other is owned by an organisation called the Christian Brothers. Saying that both organisations should have identical admission rules is just nonsense I think.

Which school is this, as I have never heard of them as there is mention of them on the oasis web site that there are 9 'model' school as far as I aware they are for special needs children.

9 primary schools owned and run by the dept of education in the whole of the country, does anyone see this as the problem ?

Kernel32

Darragh29 wrote:

Reflecting on my own experiences, I went to a CBS school, this school and the site it was on was owned by the CBS and run by the Christian Brothers. There is a national school in my own neighbourhood which is owned by the Dept. of Education and is run by lay people. Here lies the key difference. One is owned exclusively by tax payers via the Dept. of Education and the other is owned by an organisation called the Christian Brothers. Saying that both organisations should have identical admission rules is just nonsense I think.

I have no doubt both are receiving tax payers money to run the schools. tax payers come in all forms and not all are Catholics. The numbers I see from the department of education just don't jive with this idea that there are options. 1.5% of all primary schools are multi/inter-denominational, 92% are Catholic. There is very little choice for people.

I remember being taught in school about how the Irish were persecuted by the English. We were not allowed to be educated. The Catholic church setup hedge schools and did it's best to educate the population. Over time the hedge schools became the national school system as Ireland gained independence.

Here we are now in modern Ireland and we have children being denied a place at there local school because of their religion. In response to that there has been a movement through Educate Together to create multi-denominational schools. What we have is the modern hedge school and over time it will inevitably replace the current system.

Darragh29

Kernel32 wrote:

I have no doubt both are receiving tax payers money to run the schools. tax payers come in all forms and not all are Catholics.

Yes they are subsidised and rightly so as they are providing a public service in line with the common good but I'm talking about the matter of ownership.

Kernel32 wrote:

Here we are now in modern Ireland and we have children being denied a place at there local school because of their religion. In response to that there has been a movement through Educate Together to create multi-denominational schools. What we have is the modern hedge school and over time it will inevitably replace the current system.

If the church did not own these schools that are requiring a child to be baptised before being admitted into the school, then this situation could not exist. It's a question of ownership, not who meets or contributes towards the running costs of a particular school. The irony of this argument is that if the government is being asked to fund a few hundred schools around the country to cater for people who want to use their children to make their parents political statements for them, who is going to pay for this??? The people who will pick up the tab for it I imagine are the vast majority of parents who are quite happy to have their children baptised and educated in Catholic schools.

Darragh29

Kernel32 wrote:

I remember being taught in school about how the Irish were persecuted by the English. We were not allowed to be educated.

You mean you didn't like what you were hearing! We were persecuted by the English! Unless all that shi*te about hedge schools and banned from speaking Irish was just Republican propaganda at the time! You would have been taught the same history lesson no matter what school you were in!

Kernel32

Darragh29 wrote:

You mean you didn't like what you were hearing! We were persecuted by the English! Unless all that shi*te about hedge schools and banned from speaking Irish was just Republican propaganda at the time! You would have been taught the same history lesson no matter what school you were in!

You are misreading what I said. When I said we were not allowed to be educated I was refering to the English occupiers now allowing Irish people to have an education. I am not disputing that, it was a very real problem and one of the worst things they did to Ireland.

Nevyn

Darragh29 wrote:

Yes they are subsidised and rightly so as they are providing a public service in line with the common good but I'm talking about the matter of ownership.

Clearly it is not a public service as they will only allow for children who are not
baptised when they need to make up the numbers to get the captation grants to fun the school the rest of the time it is restricted to children who are of the parish so it is not a public service.

If the church did not own these schools that are requiring a child to be baptised before being admitted into the school, then this situation could not exist. It's a question of ownership, not who meets or contributes towards the running costs of a particular school.

Well the state should own and run the majority of the schools or at least buy the land the schools are located so that things which do contravines church law can be taught on the premises even if it is just to non christain children.

The irony of this argument is that if the government is being asked to fund a few hundred schools around the country to cater for people who want to use their children to make their parents political statements for them,

If is not a political statement at all where on earth did you get that idea ?

wrote:

who is going to pay for this??? The people who will pick up the tab for it I imagine are the vast majority of parents who are quite happy to have their children baptised and educated in Catholic schools.

The state pays the same ammount of money per child per year to what ever school that child is in, the state pays the same ammount of money towards the school building no matter what patron or what ethos of the school so really at least in that way all children are equal.

What is your problem with enough parents getting together and deciding to for a collective to use those moneys to form a school with the ethos of their choice ?

What is wrong with wanting your child to go to school in the local community and not having the child excluded or thier family dicomoded due to the fact
the church owns the land the school is on and can set policty as result ?
I can not take my children aside when thier class is having RE and teach them myself in the school as the school is on church ground and it breaks church law to preach or instruct anyone in ways that are not the churches.

Where schools have large groups of muslim, born again christians or any other religious groups religous classes for those children can not be had in the school if the school is on church grounds even if there are elders/priests/parents willing to come in and give instruction at the same time the rest of the children have RE as the ground the schools are on are church grounds.


If there was the option of a non/multidenomiational school in every community then we would not have a problem but we don't have that currently.

People are moving away from church controlled schools the vast majority of
new build school have been educate together school as the parents decided that this was the type of inclusive school they wanted where they live.

FatherTed

As a parent who has kids in a US public schools system, I side with Ayla and Kernal32 on this. I went to regular national school back in Ireland and to a cbs for secondary school. I had a friend who was protestant who would have to read a book on his own and not participate whenever we had religion in school. It is not like his family had much of a choice as there were no COI or Multi-denominational schools in the area back then.

Religious schools do not receive funding in the US. People who send their kids there have to pay for tuition and in some places (e.g. where Kernal32 is), they may get a small tax reimbursement. Public Schools are usually run by the Town/City, and only receive limited funding from the Federal Government. The schools are funded mainly by local property taxes. In contrast to Ireland, a school board is elected by the town who oversee the running of the schools.
People can opt who have religion taught separately, like I do, my kids go to Sunday School for religion.

With the Catholic Church still running over 90% of the schools, funded by the State, not many options are available to the New Irish who are non-Catholic.

Darragh29

Thaedydal wrote:

Clearly it is not a public service as they will only allow for children who are not
baptised when they need to make up the numbers to get the captation grants to fun the school the rest of the time it is restricted to children who are of the parish so it is not a public service.

Ok, I accept my choice of the words "public service" is not ideal, they are providing a service consistent with the common good. They are a religious organisation, they own the land and the school, they would appear to cater for the majority of parents who have had no reason to take the combative attitude that the OP has decided to take against the church.

Thaedydal wrote:

Well the state should own and run the majority of the schools or at least buy the land the schools are located so that things which do contravines church law can be taught on the premises even if it is just to non christain children.

Maybe the state should, when the vast majority of Irish people feel like the OP, which I don't think is the case at the moment.

Thaedydal wrote:

If is not a political statement at all where on earth did you get that idea ?

It kind of is when it boils down to it. It's effectively saying that you want to Dept. of Education to cater especially for you because you have a chip on your shoulder with the church.

Thaedydal wrote:

What is your problem with enough parents getting together and deciding to for a collective to use those moneys to form a school with the ethos of their choice ?

None, my problem is with the OP having an obvious hatred of the church and still wanting to send his/her child to a Catholic school, this smacks of hypocracy.

Thaedydal wrote:

What is wrong with wanting your child to go to school in the local community and not having the child excluded or thier family dicomoded due to the fact
the church owns the land the school is on and can set policty as result ?
I can not take my children aside when thier class is having RE and teach them myself in the school as the school is on church ground and it breaks church law to preach or instruct anyone in ways that are not the churches.

I've no inherent problem with it. A gaelscoil opened up in my area a good few years ago. The rule was simple, it was for parents who wanted their children educated in Irish. If you wanted your child educated in English, this was not the school for your child! Same logic applies here. The OP obviously has a chip on his/her shoulder with the church yet wants the school run by a bunch of people he hates, to educate his child.

Thaedydal wrote:

People are moving away from church controlled schools the vast majority of
new build school have been educate together school as the parents decided that this was the type of inclusive school they wanted where they live.

Well from what I'm seeing, Catholic schools are packed and booked years in advance. This doesn't tell me that people are departing from this method of education and pursuing a non-denominational approach. I've never heard of a parent in Ireland not having a christening for their child, that is where the OP's problems appear to have started. Not having a child christened because you think the church is run by a gang of paedofiles is an attitude based on ignorance.

Look a bit closely at what you are promoting here. A generation of children who would never know what it is like to go to a church and light a candle. A generation of children who would know of no higher authority than themselves. If we follow all this to its logical conclusion, we would have no Christmas and no first communions.

We have a situation where the majority religion in this country owns the schools and can call the shots. If we were to interfere with this, we would be interfering with the constitutional right of citizens and private bodies/organisations to own property and all that. The Catholic church didn't just arrive in Ireland and come into a load of land that had big new schools planted in the middle of each site. The sites and school buildings on the sites were built up over generations and generations. This is what non-religious people should do if they want to have an alternative venue for education. I personally don't believe there is a demand for it, because I've never heard of any person I know who is Irish, just deciding that they will not have their child baptised/christened, because they have a load of issues with the church.

Darragh29

FatherTed wrote:

With the Catholic Church still running over 90% of the schools, funded by the State, not many options are available to the New Irish who are non-Catholic.

Many of the new Irish are more Catholic than the Irish who have been here all along.

Nevyn

Darragh29 wrote:

It kind of is when it boils down to it. It's effectively saying that you want to Dept. of Education to cater especially for you

What is wrong with secular education and not wanting your child indoctrunated into a religion you are not a part of ?

Darragh29 wrote:

None, my problem is with the OP having an obvious hatred of the church and still wanting to send his/her child to a Catholic school, this smacks of hypocracy.

Acutally he stated he would prefer to have his child in a educate together school but there is not one advailible.

Darragh29 wrote:

This doesn't tell me that people are departing from this method of education and pursuing a non-denominational approach.

• Out of the 3,150 National Schools (2003/4) 93% are under Catholic patronage, 6% Protestant (Anglican, Presbyterian and Methodist), 2 are Muslim and 1 Jewish. Only 1.2% are multidenominational.

• Educate Together is the lead supplier of new primary schools in Ireland. 66% of it schools are developing schools in temporary accommodation

• There are currently 6,400 pupils in Educate Together schools, and the rate of growth is now nearing 1,000 pupils per year.

All of the new primary school being but in in the greater dublin 15 area are educate together schools.

I've never heard of a parent in Ireland not having a christening for their child, that is where the OP's problems appear to have started.

Well you must live a very closed life, I did not have a christianing for either of my children as I am not a christain.
I know other pagan parents, islamic parents, jewish parent and some of christain faiths that are not catholic and some that are athesit all of whom have not had their children christened.

Not having a child christened because you think the church is run by a gang of paedofiles is an attitude based on ignorance.

the Op states he is atesist and that is why his child was not christened.

Look a bit closely at what you are promoting here. A generation of children who would never know what it is like to go to a church and light a candle. A generation of children who would know of no higher authority than themselves.

How dare you assume that my children have no gods or no spiritualty just becuase they are not catholic, how dare you assume that a jewish/islamic/other christian/hindu/budhist child have no god, no spirituality or does not know how to pray.

My children ligth candles at home as part of prayer and have been to church to see what goes on but it is not for them unless they choose it when they are older.

If we follow all this to its logical conclusion, we would have no Christmas and no first communions.

Those children and parents what would wish to take part in those sacrements would but it would be done outside of school and with out days off school for it.

We have a situation where the majority religion in this country owns the schools and can call the shots. If we were to interfere with this, we would be interfering with the constitutional right of citizens and private bodies/organisations to own property and all that. The Catholic church didn't just arrive in Ireland and come into a load of land that had big new schools planted in the middle of each site. The sites and school buildings on the sites were built up over generations and generations.

I think the the new cenus figures will change this tbh.

This is what non-religious people should do if they want to have an alternative venue for education.

Again you are conculding non catholic and non christain equals non religious and again you are wrong.

I personally don't believe there is a demand for it, because I've never heard of any person I know who is Irish, just deciding that they will not have their child baptised/christened, because they have a load of issues with the church.

Well with the rate educate together schools are being set up there is a demand for it.

I have issues with the catholic church thier ways and policies and laws are not for me hence I am not catholic and my children are not catholic and they are not christened.

Darragh29

Thaedydal wrote:

What is wrong with secular education and not wanting your child indoctrunated into a religion you are not a part of ?

Nothing whatsoever, once you are not trying to get your child into a religious school on nothing but your own terms, while spitting on the people who run it and call them paedophiles, which is what the OP is trying to do.

Thaedydal wrote:

Acutally he stated he would prefer to have his child in a educate together school but there is not one advailible.

My only point is that this is not the churches problem. He clearly stated on the thread that he is challenging the right of the school in question to not allow his child to enrol because his child is not baptised.

Thaedydal wrote:

Well you must live a very closed life, I did not have a christianing for either of my children as I am not a christain.
I know other pagan parents, islamic parents, jewish parent and some of christain faiths that are not catholic and some that are athesit all of whom have not had their children christened.

I don't live a closed life at all, I have genuinely never heard of a person in Ireland (obviously exclusing Muslims, etc), who have had a child and not had that child christened, or made a decision to bring a child up with no religious guidance whatsoever.

Thaedydal wrote:

How dare you assume that my children have no gods or no spiritualty just becuase they are not catholic, how dare you assume that a jewish/islamic/other christian/hindu/budhist child have no god, no spirituality or does not know how to pray. My children light candles at home as part of prayer and have been to church to see what goes on but it is not for them unless they choose it when they are older.

Well what God are they praying to??? Prayer without a recipient is not prayer. I'm not trying to split hairs with you, I'm genuinely trying to see where you are coming from here.

Thaedydal wrote:

Again you are conculding non catholic and non christain equals non religious and again you are wrong.

Never said that. You can't have no religious beliefs and still remain a religious person, this is a contradiction. Kids don't just hit 25 and then decide to become religious, in the same way that they don't just learn to add and subtract or read and write when they turn 28 or 32. I think this is something they need to grow with and learn as they mature from a young age, just like any other area of knowledge.

Thaedydal wrote:

I have issues with the catholic church thier ways and policies and laws are not for me hence I am not catholic and my children are not catholic and they are no christened.

I have many issues with the Catholic church. The Catholic church itself has many issues it needs to sort out.

Nevyn

Darragh29 wrote:

My only point is that this is not the churches problem. He clearly stated on the thread that he is challenging the right of the school in question to not allow his child to enroll because his child is not baptised.

I think giventhe lack of option advailible he is right to challenge this and should be petitioning his TDs and the minister for Education as to why
they are failing to meet thier commitments under

Universal Declaration of Human Rights (1948)

“Parents have a prior right to choose the kind of education that shall be given to their children”

and

European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR) (1952), entry into force in Ireland 2003

First Protocol to the Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms, Article 2

“No person shall be denied the right to education. In the exercise of any functions which it assumes in relation to education and to teaching, the State shall respect the right of parents to ensure such education and teaching in conformity with their own religious and philosophical convictions.”

and the United Nations Committee on the Convention on the Rights of the Child.

I don't live a closed life at all, I have genuinely never heard of a person in Ireland (obviously exclusing Muslims, etc), who have had a child and not had that child christened, or made a decision to bring a child up with no religious guidance whatsoever.

Well you have now.

Well what God are they praying to??? Prayer without a recipient is not prayer. I'm not trying to split hairs with you, I'm genuinely trying to see where you are coming from here.

Look you have said you are catholic and that mean you are monothesist.
You believe that there is only one god and that is fine by me, my beliefs are not your beliefs and my gods are not your gods and I am not dragging this thread off topic to dicuss who my gods are and who me and my children pray to. We are not christain we are pagan and that is all I have to say on the matter here.

You can't have no religious beliefs and still remain a religious person, this is a contradiction.

Your idea on what a religious belief is seems to be muddled.

Kids don't just hit 25 and then decide to become religious, in the same way that they don't just learn to add and subtract or read and write when they turn 28 or 32.

So then there was no way that st paul saw a angel on the road to damascas and found religions then ? or any other of those that Jesus converted on his travels ?

I think this is something they need to grow with and learn as they mature from a young age, just like any other area of knowledge.

I agree that is why I would be in favour of multidenominational schools which teach children a little about all religions but leave the religious and spiritual intruction of the child to the parents and thier religious/spiritual community.

OTK

So today I dropped in to the local protestant school which is run by the C of I. They are also oversubscribed and choose there own first and everyone else on a first come first served basis after that. I thought they might give preference to other protestants but no.

I did discover that there is a project to create a new educate together school about a mile from my house. Great! So I am going to call them in the morning to see if it would be ready in time. Also I might wait till 2008 if that is not too late ( he is born in October 2002).

I have sent the following letter to my local TDs

Dear x

I am a parent of a child of four, due to attend primary school next year. I am surprised and dismayed to discover that the local national schools employ sectarian religious selection policies. I cannot understand how this is allowed when these schools are reliant on state funding to cover their running costs and salaries.

I cannot see how it is right for the state to promote divisive educational policies for young children in this way. There is no reason why religion should not be an extra-curricular activity.

After Swim Ireland was discovered to be an organisation plagued by multiple cases of child rape and sexual abuse and to have behaved in an appalling manner when confronted with these offences, there was a universal acceptance that it could no longer receive state funding or be entrusted with the care of young children. I see no reason why the Catholic Church should be treated any differently, regardless of its many past good works or of the innocence of many of its clergy.

Please let me know if you are happy with this situation and, if not, what you or your party propose to remedy it.

Yours

Thanks to everyone on this thread for your advice and opinions.

mountainyman

As someone who believes that we should have a secular state controlled education system thank you for writing that letter.

I would suggest however that you remove the references to child rape and Swim Ireland. I don't believe they are useful and they make you sound like a nutter. Of course I accept that your opinions are sincere but I would suggest that you take it out.


MM

kippy

I'd just like to add,
There are a few people on here outlining the US system.
There is no way, I would want our education system and schools being modeled on the US system-there are lots of problems with the US system which many people fail to mention and religious/racial intolerance is far worse in the US than it is here, which is strange considering the amount of work done to ensure that is not the case.
OP, your letter, while good, doesnt really highlight the issue you are having.
Perhaps if you highlight this issue, you may be able to get you child into the school next door after all.

People need to realise that the system cannot change over night due to many factors. At the end of the day I believe if the church are taken out of the running of schools parents in general will end up paying a lot more for the education of their children to cover the costs of buying out the schools from the church and to implement the yet to be thought up, better ways to get religion out of the class room.
As I mentioned before, I do not believe there are enough people who care about this topic to actually change the system, however there are obviously enough people who want to have the option of a non catholic school to actually set upp a non religious school.


Kippy

OTK

Well I spoke to educate together this morning and they told me they are no longer building new schools but are focusing their attention on legislative changes and pushing for extra funding. They said they are fed up that most of their schools are in prefabs.

RE MM: letters already sent. Too bad if I come across as a nutter. I'd encourage anyone else who feels that the state should fund primary education in a more inclusive way to also write to your local TDs but maybe in a less angry way. It only takes a few minutes.

OTK

kippy wrote:

OP, your letter, while good, doesnt really highlight the issue you are having.
Perhaps if you highlight this issue, you may be able to get you child into the school next door after all.

I don't see TDs as my personal agents to subvert the laws of the state when called upon in exchange for votes. They are legislators who should enact laws for the greater good.

There are exceptional cases where I might ask for personal help from a TD but in this case the worst that is going to happen is that I have an inconvenient commute every morning and have to pay the costs of a private primary school.

We would all be better off if the TDs spent their time fixing the system rather than bending it to fit the often selfish individual needs of their electorate.

lostexpectation

OTK you attitude is little OTT, you mentioned your lived virtually next door to the school, that alone should put you high enough up the list to get in... there must be some sort of points system you could ask them about.... your partner needn't have lied.


although I love for you to go to some parents teacher meeting about school applications and then don't hold back, they would put them in their places again, the church should hand it schools over to the state.

do put your energy into the ET school, but relax wit the stereotypes about republican gaelscoils, I presume you would lie your child to get the best oppurtnuity s/he would ever have of being fluent in their native language?

Kernel32

kippy wrote:

I'd just like to add,
There are a few people on here outlining the US system.
There is no way, I would want our education system and schools being modeled on the US system-there are lots of problems with the US system which many people fail to mention and religious/racial intolerance is far worse in the US than it is here, which is strange considering the amount of work done to ensure that is not the case.

Kippy

The US education system has it problems for sure. I would love to know though what evidence you have to say it is worse in religious/racial intolerance than in Ireland? Reading sensational headlines maybe? When I went to school in Ireland in my first primary school we had a couple of Vietnamese kids. There were constantly harassed both physically and verbally. In my second primary school and in secondary school we had some English kids who received the same treatment. I myself was harassed on occasion because my father is English. Anyone that is different from the majority generally becomes a target in a school setting. This is the same in Ireland or the US. I have no evidence to say either school system is more or less tolerant of differences so I can't make a bold statement like that without something concrete to back it up.