School wants proof my child is a catholic

Darragh29

OTK wrote:

Another user had made this point. Clearly I don't believe that my child is at risk of abuse if I am willing to send him to school there. Being willing or keen to send my child to the local school does not mean that I endorse everything about the school. There are no priests on the teaching staff and I imagine my child will have minimal contact with Fr Roger et al.

The church has now withdrawn from the day to day work of teaching children to maintaining executive power - deciding which teachers are hired, operating sectarian selection policies, spreading scary myths about limbo and puragtory and so on.

I regard them as a cancer on the body of state education. I see it as disgusting that the church is effectively leasing their buildings to the state in exchange for the souls of the children. I just wish they'd **** off and atone for their sins.

luckat, you're right that I need to talk to my wife more about my child's education. I just let her sort it out and then walked in at the last moment and started throwing my weight around. My wife is very honest with me and with friends but has a strange compulsion to lie to all officials.

What I am picking up here is that you want the school in question to educate your children and before you even have your child enrolled, you want to dictate to the school the manner in which they provide that education. This isn't how the world works! Either you fully trust the school to educate your child in accordance with how the school delivers education or you don't, it doesn't get any simpler than that.

OTK

Darragh29 wrote:

What I am picking up here is that you want the school in question to educate your children and before you even have your child enrolled, you want to dictate to the school the manner in which they provide that education.

I am quite happy with the syllabus and with the non-sectarian aspects of the religion classes. I only have an issue with the church having control of the student selection and teacher recruitment processes.

Darragh29 wrote:

This isn't how the world works! Either you fully trust the school to educate your child in accordance with how the school delivers education or you don't, it doesn't get any simpler than that.

Last time I checked, Ireland was a secular democracy that allows the general public to determine the laws by directly electing the legislators. So if enough people dislike something it can be changed and yes, this is how the world works. We're not in Iran now, Toto.

Most people on this thread seem to broadly agree with the secularisation of primary education although most of you seem somewhat shocked that I am not showing enough deference to an organisation that is currently being investigated for 1,000 child rapes and subsequent coverups in the Dublin area alone.

Darragh29

OTK wrote:

I am quite happy with the syllabus and with the non-sectarian aspects of the religion classes. I only have an issue with the church having control of the student selection and teacher recruitment processes.

You are obviously not happy with the syllabus when the syllabus involves the teaching of religion to your child and you have chosen to bring your child up as an athiest, which I fully respect as your choice and your right. But that is where your rights end in my opinion. After that, you need to follow through on your decision and accept that a Catholic shcool is not the place for an athiest child to be educated. I don't think its open to you to dictate to the school how they can select students and how they can select staff, no more than it would be open to you to turn up at the Clonskeagh Mosque and start telling them that they have to accept your child into their school and that they have to accept any terms that you might wish to attach to your childs education, like who teaches your child, that you don't want them to study the Koran, etc.

OTK

Darragh29 wrote:

you have chosen to bring your child up as an athiest, which I fully respect as your choice and your right. But that is where your rights end in my opinion. After that, you need to follow through on your decision and accept that a Catholic shcool is not the place for an athiest child to be educated.

According to Victor's data above, 99.88% of schools are religious yet in the 2002 census, 9% of people in Dublin stated that they had no religion or left the answer blank. So it is unreasonable to tell atheists not to send their children to religious schools as there are not enough schools for them to attend.

Do you accept this?

I don't think its open to you to dictate to the school how they can select students and how they can select staff

No, as I am not the supreme ruler of Ireland it is not up to me to dictate any state policy. There is a difference between stating an opinion and dictating a policy.

As our society becomes more multicultural I don't think it's healthy to practise a religious apartheid system for young children.

Cooee

Rightly or wrongly most schools in the Republic of Ireland were started by the Church and a lot of the building was church financed and on church grounds.
That's where we, as a predominately Catholic nation, came from (like it or not).

As a result the majority of Primary Schools are under that "control" of the Catholic church. Although with the changes in society and drop off in vocations most schools are managed by a Board of Management consisting of lay people, although they will all be Catholic.

So on to the point - the following is a direct take from the school enrolement policy of my local national school. I am sure this very similar as the school in the OP

As a by the way a baptisimal cert is the only way of verifying that a person is Catholic.

To summarise - the school is well within it's legal rights (moral rights are something else completely) to request proof that a child is Catholic if they have indicated on the application form that they are Catholic.

So there you have it! You may not like it but that's the way things are at the moment. The protestant school down the road operates exactly the same policy except it prioritises protestant children! We have state funded school system rather than a state run one.

Look at all the money religious secondary schools receive - from Catholic BLackrock College to Methodist Wesley College.

==========================

The Board of Management of the School sets out herein, it's enrolment policy in accordance with the Education Act of 1998 and the Child Welfare Act 2002.

In reading this policy please note:

The Board refers the Board of Management of XYZ School.
The School refers to XYZ School, Any Road, Ireland.
The Parent(s) refers to the parent(s) and /or guardian(s) of the child attending at or applying to XYZ School.
The DES refers to the Department of Education and Science.

School Enrolment Policy
XYZ School is a Catholic School under the patronage of the Archbishop of Dublin. To maintain it's Catholic ethos, the School strives to nurture children in the Catholic Faith.

The Board upholds the distinctive spirit of the school as determined by the cultural, educational, moral, religious, social, linguistic and spiritual values and traditions which are characteristic of the school.
The School is dependent on the grants and teacher resources provided by the DES and it operates within the regulations laid down by the DES.

The School is co-educational and inclusive. It caters for all classes from Junior Infants to 6th Class. The School follows the curricular programmes prescribed by the DES, which may be amended from time to time in accordance with Sections 9 and 30 of the Education Act (1998).

The Board of Management of the School sets out below its enrolment policy in accordance with the Education Act of 1998 and the Child Welfare Act 2002.

1.0 Principles of our Enrolment Policy:
It is the policy of the Board to seek to provide places for all catholic children from XYZ Parish whose parents seek a place. Applications from other children will be considered according to the availability of places. The priority is outlined below.

Equality of access is the key value that determines the enrolment of children in the School. The school respects the diversity of values, beliefs, traditions, languages and ways of life in our society. The school celebrates difference and no child is refused admission for reasons of age (beyond requirements), ethnicity, special educational needs, disability, language or accent, gender, traveller status, asylum-seeker or refugee status, religious or political beliefs & values, family or social circumstances.

2.0 Enrolment

2.1 Rights of existing School Community
While recognising the right of parents to enrol their child in the School of their choice, the Board upholds the rights of the existing School community and, in particular, the children already enrolled. Principles of natural justice will apply to act in the best interest of all children.

The Board reserves the right to determine the maximum number of children in each separate classroom, bearing in mind:

DES guidelines in relation to maximum class size and staffing provision.
Size and space of classrooms
Health and Welfare of the children
Educational needs of the applicant
Multi-grade classes
Presence of children with special educational or behavioural needs

While respecting the wishes of all parents who choose to send their children to the School, account will be taken of the following:
-the need to avoid disruption of pupils during the course of the School year e.g. the extra intake necessitating classes having to be reformed. (It is the desire of the Board that classes, once formed in September, will not have to be reconstituted.)
-the need not to exceed the maximum class size as set by the DES and Board.
-the desire of the Board to maintain a pupil population consistent with the prevailing number of classes.
-whether a move from current school to St Oliver Plunkett School is in the educational interests of the child.
-The desire of the Board to adhere to the agreements between the local parishes and local schools.

2.2 Authority of School Principal
The School Principal is authorised by the Board to take decisions on pupil intake consistent with this Policy Document. In line with the Education Welfare Act 2000, these decisions will be notified to parents as soon as possible. For the September intake, parents will be notified by the end of May. In the case of intake during the school year, the decision will be notified to parents within 21 days of receipt of a completed application form.

Appeals on any decision made by the Principal must be addressed, in writing, to the Chairperson of the Board within 7 days of the decision of the Principal. This does not effect the statutory rights of parents to the appeal process as indicated in the section 29 of The Education Act and detailed in Circular 22/02 of the DES.

Criteria used for Enrolment Priority

Where the number of children seeking enrolment in any standard exceeds the number of places available it will be necessary to adopt certain enrolment criteria. This will be so whether preceding or during the school year.

The imbalance between the number of children seeking enrolment and the number of places available may be due to the inability DES to provide suitable accommodation or sufficient teaching posts, or the inability of the Board to recruit suitable teaching staff.

In such cases the following criteria will be used to prioritise children for enrolment:
1. Catholic children living within the parish, including children of the Travelling Community ? priority to oldest.
2, Brothers & Sisters (including step-siblings, resident at same address) of children already enrolled ? priority to oldest. Older siblings wishing to be enrolled in this school, while resident at the same address but attending a different school, are referred to the criteria set out in Paragraph 2.3.4.of this Enrolment Policy.
3. Catholic children of current School staff ? priority to oldest.
4. Catholic children of current School staff ? priority to oldest.
5. Catholic children who live outside the parish but who do not have a Catholic School in their area ? priority to oldest.
6. Non-Catholic children of teaching staff
7. Children who live in the parish and are not catholic ? priority to oldest.
8. Children who live outside the parish and are not Catholic. Places will be allocated on the basis of age and proximity to the School.

jimmycrackcorm

My sister living in London tells me that she is desperately trying to get her son into a catholic school there as they are rated vastly better than the state schools. What does that say for state education?

I think the op's arguments are streaked through with an anti-catholic bias. Despite the wrongs of the Catholic church, should we forget so easily how much they contributed toour education system over the years. It was largely parish contributions that provided us with the schools that we have. I still remember the school building funds envelopes alongside the normal sunday mass collection.

We've sent our child to a Gaelscoil though we were waiting for a place in a local educate-together in preference to local catholic schools. However I fully support the rights of the catholic schools to positively discriminate in their favour.

The state does give equal funding bias to non-catholic schools so if the op is unhappy about the rules of his nearest school then I don't see why his possible inconvenience means they should have to bend to his wishes. It's not up to the state to provide a la carte schools, it's the states job to fund schools according to the requirements of the local populace. Looking at the new schools built near me including, RC / Educate together and Gaelscoileanna, I think they are doing this job, whether adequate or not.

Alos I think that the OPs taxes probably just pay for three months of a teachers salary and that is probably for the summer too.

luckat

Model schools are usually schools where the teacher training colleges train their teachers - for instance, Kildare Place School in Rathmines is a Protestant model school, run by the Church of Ireland (though most of the kids there are now from Catholic or non-sect backgrounds, I think).

Really, if anyone wants a non-religious education for their children, and an education of far, far higher standard than they'll get in Ireland (not to mention much nicer, and free), they should move to France, where religion and state are *by law* kept separate.

OTK

jimmycrackcorm wrote:

I think the op's arguments are streaked through with an anti-catholic bias.

I don't know if it makes it any better but I dislike the other religions too.

Despite the wrongs of the Catholic church, should we forget so easily how much they contributed toour education system over the years. It was largely parish contributions that provided us with the schools that we have. I still remember the school building funds envelopes alongside the normal sunday mass collection.

Very generous. They built schools with your money. Then they allowed the most vulnerable children to be beaten and raped. And now let's look for moral guidance from an organisation that didn't consider child rape a serious crime until their financial assets appeared to be at risk.

But let's not forget all the good things they did.

However I fully support the rights of the catholic schools to positively discriminate in their favour.

I wouldn't mind if discriminatory selection policies were operated in a small number of religious schools. I wouldn't even mind the state funding them. It's a problem when the religions have control over 99% of the schools.

kippy

I don't know if it makes it any better but I disklike the other religions too. Very generous. They built schools with your money. Then they allowed the most vulnerable children to be beaten and raped. And now let's look for moral guidance from an organisation that didn't consider child rape a serious crime until their financial assets appeared to be at risk.

But let's not forget all the good things they did.

I wouldn't mind if discriminatory selection policies were operated in a small number of religious schools. I wouldn't even mind the state funding them. It's a problem when the religions have control over 99% of the schools.

OTK your attitute sucks.
You are a dickhead.
Ban me please.
Kippy

lostexpectation

Victor wrote:

My understanding was they were "model" school used to set examples. [edit]They were originally teacher training schools http://www.nationalarchives.ie/topics/Nat_Schools/natschs.html[/edit]

This page might be out of date http://www.oasis.gov.ie/education/primary_education/ownership_of_schools.html?search=model+schools

Only 4 of the schools listed have the name "model" in the title. All are CoI.

COI thats surprising I guess they were in favour when this was setup /arse

OTK

kippy wrote:

OTK your attitute sucks.

Do you not think that a deferential attitude towards the hierarchy of an organisation that facilitated child abusers to continue operating sucks even more?

For the record I have no problem with people calling me names. You are all forgiven in advance.

lostexpectation

Cooee wrote:

Rightly or wrongly most schools in the Republic of Ireland were started by the Church and a lot of the building was church financed and on church grounds.


Chruch financed??

Donated land and parishners money?

So on to the point - the following is a direct take from the school enrolement policy of my local national school. I am sure this very similar as the school in the OP

As a by the way a baptisimal cert is the only way of verifying that a person is Catholic.

To summarise - the school is well within it's legal rights (moral rights are something else completely) to request proof that a child is Catholic if they have indicated on the application form that they are Catholic.
[\quote]
out the goodness of their hearts or to control the people?

Gurgle

OTK wrote:

For the record I have no problem with people calling me names. You are all forgiven in advance.

You damn equalitarian anti-hegemony anti-theocracy anti-discriminatory child protecting left-wing idealist.

I bet you're even in favour of providing education for black muslim children!

Nevyn

You may not like the way OTK expresses his opinion but he is stating facts.

Kippy banned for personal abuse.


OTK those things may have happened in the past but you are taring everyone who currently works with children in school and they all have what is best for the children at heart.

All school and teachers have to currently comply with the child protection act and are trained in those methods. You will find more info on that here http://www.education.ie/home/home.jsp?pcategory=33791&ecategory=33807&language=EN

snb

'You seem to have a lot of preconceived notions about many organisations running these schools. You statements regarding the running of the GaelScoileanna is shocking! You've obviously not done any research into the options available to you and are prepared to overlook your irk of the catholic chuch to make life easier on yourself. Then when you find out that they actually check the vaildity of your application, you blame it all on the raping of kids by the church in years gone by?'


OTK, as siad before why do you want to send your child to a school where the ethos and practices are so different to your own ? In fact you seem to bear nothing contempt for this school. Surely this will not foster a good environment for your child ? You say you do not want them to be raised being told what the 'right religion' is. Your attitude seems to tell them quite clearly what the 'wrong' religion is. Have you considered how confusing this would be to a child ? Esp your suggestion of a quickie baptism & avoiding communion & confirmation ?

There should be more provision in Educate Together type schools/ or removal of the Catholic nature of schools where your & many other childern would not have to go through this level of hypocrisy in order to get a good education.

Further, I don't think that the level of bashing you have given the Catholic religion should be permitted/tolerated here.

Nevyn

OTK has been careful about not bashing the catholic religion or people who are catholic but so far has only mentioned the churches hierarchy and again that these things happened is a matter of public and legal record.

The way schools have been set up here and continue to run is a matter that should be raised but a long the lines of respectful and inculsive education and access for all.

OTK you have made you point several time about your distaste for the current regime enough already.

OTK

OTK those things may have happened in the past but you are taring everyone who currently works with children in school and they all have what is best for the children at heart.

I didn't mean to do that. I would trust that the vast majority of teachers and priests would never now harm a child. My criticisms were directed at the organisation rather than the individual members. Presumably the vast majority of employees of Enron and Andersen were honest people shocked by the truth.

What would it cost for the state to buy out the church ownership of primary school buildings? If there are approx 3000 schools and and lets guess they are worth 3m on average that would make a total of 9 billion euro. Given a 3% yield, that would equate to around 270m euro/year rental. As a proportion of a 7 billion euro annual education budget, that's not impossibly high.

Remeber that even through the most divisive years of the troubles in Northern Ireland, the church insisted on keeping children of different sects separate throughout their schooling and the UK government complied with this policy. I'm sure there was no malice, but it was still wrong.

OTK

SNB: i have no choice but to send my child to a religious school. the only available non-religious school is full (though I am on a cancellation list). I want to get back on topic, and also to avoid any more negative references to the catholic hierarchy.

After primary school, what is the landscape like for non-religious schools? I am guessing that the comprehensive schools are my best bet. Are they run by religious? Do children from ET schools find that they are last priority for most secondary schools when they leave?

man1

OTK wrote:

I live next door. He'd be able to walk to school.

I am an atheist Christian so a christian ethos would be quite OK with me. I wish religion was taught outside of school hours like piano lessons. Then the kids could go to the same schools and there wouldn't be a problem.

Hi
What is an atheist christian??? Thats new to me?????? I am a muslim/jew by the way!!!

OTK

man1 wrote:

Hi
What is an atheist christian??? Thats new to me??????

I try to follow Christ's philosophy. Love one another, love your enemy as your friend. Never practise vengeance. Avoid worship of money (camel - eye of the needle). Tolerance towards other religions (good samaritan). Humility (washing feet). Other religions have gone for a superman like prophet who smites others whereas I like the brave but peaceful approach. That kind of thing.

I'm not so keen on the miraculous bits which I rationalise as symbolism or legend.

TempestSabre

OTK wrote:

I don't know if it makes it any better but I dislike the other religions too. Very generous. They built schools with your money. Then they allowed the most vulnerable children to be beaten and raped. And now let's look for moral guidance from an organisation that didn't consider child rape a serious crime until their financial assets appeared to be at risk.

But let's not forget all the good things they did.

I wouldn't mind if discriminatory selection policies were operated in a small number of religious schools. I wouldn't even mind the state funding them. It's a problem when the religions have control over 99% of the schools.

Jeez, can you play another tune? Sweeping generalisations are just sound bites and are just tabloid sensationalism. Very lazy posting. Yes truely awful things haven happened but thats not the sole perserve of religions. Sports clubs and such have had similar. Though I have a low opinion of the organisation that allowed such abuse, sweeping everyone under the same blanket is just inane. Repeating the same tired point over and over doesn't make it any less flawed.

If you don't want to put your kids in a religious school then don't. The more people do this, the more non religious schools will be created. We have one in our area and friends have their kids in it. They moved into the area deliberately to get into the catchment. Its also a good school which is more important IMO.

You slag off the schools but then want to send your kids there. Double standards IMO.

Ayla

Alright already! The same points are being said time and time again and getting us nowhere.

The point is that all of us want the best education and best school experience for our kids. Some of us consider that religion should be included in that experience and some of us don't. Regardless of how much christianity is taught & how it's taught in schools, the point is that some of us think that none should be taught. Period. Others think that christianity's done more good than harm and they don't mind their kids being schooled in that atmostphere. Fine.

The problem only comes when the overwhelming majority of schools (as posted multiple times here) are Catholic schools, and Catholic children are therefore given priority in an oversubscribed situation. Parents are therefore faced with a decision of whether they believe their religious beliefs outweigh the education of their children. Should they baptise their children just to get them on the enrollment list, or should they hold firm in their religious beliefs and either (1.) possibly force their child to wait another 1-2 years to (hopefully) get into a school, or (2.) commute across town to a school that doesn't require baptism.

This is why some feel there should be more non-denominational schools. There are a million different ways we can attack this argument, but I'd imagine this is really the central issue here.

man1

OTK wrote:

I try to follow Christ's philosophy. Love one another, love your enemy as your friend. Never practise vengeance. Avoid worship of money (camel - eye of the needle). Tolerance towards other religions (good samaritan). Humility (washing feet). Other religions have gone for a superman like prophet who smites others whereas I like the brave but peaceful approach. That kind of thing.

I'm not so keen on the miraculous bits which I rationalise as symbolism or legend.

If you believe in christ/or any form or type of god then you can't be an atheist. ?????????

OTK

I believe that Christ was a human being.

man1

OTK wrote:

I believe that Christ was a human being.

But you worship him!!!




(btw he never existed, it was all just a story invented by some romans as a way of keeping their subjects in line)

Ayla

Obviously the most recent posters are tired of speaking on topic. Perhaps they'd like to start a new thread re: the OP's religious beliefs?

Cooee

...this is going all over the place. Anyway Ayala has hit the nail on the head. The core of the discussion is whether the State should take over the running of the majority of primary schools from the Catholic church! My personal opinion is that they should...

Until then you either tow the Catholic line or suffer the probable inconvenience of finding and then travelling, thru our appalling traffic, to a non-denominational school.

But until any change the Catholic schools are allowed to positively discriminate towards Catholic children in their enrolement criteria and request a baptisimal cert as proof of a childs religion.........

jimmycrackcorm

OTK wrote:

I don't know if it makes it any better but I dislike the other religions too. Very generous. They built schools with your money.

and they provided me and many others with a very good education in return.

Then they allowed the most vulnerable children to be beaten and raped. And now let's look for moral guidance from an organisation that didn't consider child rape a serious crime until their financial assets appeared to be at risk.

Much of the clerical abuse was outside of the school system. Also it is unfair to splash tar right left and centre. Every organized group has its faults and flaws - its like condemning the whole US army for abu ghraib or even objecting to a Garda giving you a speeding ticket because of his lack of moral authority stemming from the Donegal saga.

The fact is that people agreed with you OP then you would get non-catholic schools as is the case with Gaelscoileanna and Educate together schools. But apparently people are generally happy with catholic run schools and you are in the minority. So why should there be reverse discrimination simply on the basis of an anti-catholic bias?

Nevyn

Who said it is to do with an anti catholic bias.

I would prefer a non catholic school for my children who are not christened.
Everything about the school they are in is wonderful except for the exclusion
and the mixed messages.

Bad enough the governement is failing it's duties under serveral citations children are being excluded and families discomoded due to the unequal out dated system.

Sleepy

I think this scenario is evidence of the incompetence of our current government. The *one* good thing that could have come from the abuse scandals was the ability to take back the schools from the Catholic Church as reparitions for the systematic cover-up of their abuses of Irish children.

Of course, a sensible action like this would have caused outrage amongst Joe Duffy's listenership so our governement accepted a mealy mouthed apology and token monetary settlement.

What's also unfortunate is that the only real means of protesting against this intrusion of the Church into what should be a State institution is to keep children back from attending school. This of course is damaging to the kids so it's a real Catch 22 which results in the "lesser" of two evils being adopted by the majority of parents.