School wants proof my child is a catholic

parsi

And, by the same token, there are issues in a lot of place with places in schools fullstop. There was a report on RTE news the other night about Newbridge where the schools are full and can't/won't accept any more. Near my kids school is a very large new development which will soon come on stream - no places in the school for them (unless someone magics up a skyscraper extension).

Schools seem to generally be pushed to the bottom of the agenda when it comes to the planning of housing estates etc.

Conar

parsi wrote:

Schools seem to generally be pushed to the bottom of the agenda when it comes to the planning of housing estates etc.

Meanwhile the Minister for Education criticises the parents for moving there in the first place.
What a country :rolleyes:

TempestSabre

Theres only 16 CBS and many kids travel long distances even from outside the county to get into those. Ditto the repeat schools like Lesson Street etc. I know people who moved countries to get their kids in a specific school. Its not that hard. Its not like people aren't aware of how schools are run in this country, or that its primarily a RC country.

Some of you might be interested in something I found on the web.
http://religiousfreedom.com/Conference/japan/Sugihara.htm

TempestSabre

parsi wrote:

And, by the same token, there are issues in a lot of place with places in schools fullstop. There was a report on RTE news the other night about Newbridge where the schools are full and can't/won't accept any more. Near my kids school is a very large new development which will soon come on stream - no places in the school for them (unless someone magics up a skyscraper extension).

Schools seem to generally be pushed to the bottom of the agenda when it comes to the planning of housing estates etc.

Planning - what planning?

Same in our idea we've had lots of battles about school places. Even though people have lived in the area for decades someone can move into the area from anywhere and get a place before a local family. So your kids miss a year.

What Govt. :rolleyes:

ArthurDent

TempestSabre wrote:

Planning - what planning?

Same in our idea we've had lots of battles about school places. Even though people have lived in the area for decades someone can move into the area from anywhere and get a place before a local family. So your kids miss a year.

What Govt. :rolleyes:

What school has an enrolment policy that allows people moving into an area precedence over existing inhabitants - sorry I don't believe that anyone is descriminated on this basis. Now if the new people were of the same denomination as the school and those that were living there before aren't that denomination then I'd believe.
but I do agree with you regardless of Hanafin spouting on about forward planning - the govt have failed every year for the past god knows how many to sucessfully predict how many children will require school places in our area - I'm the enrolment officer for our school so I deal with it at the coal face every year.
One way of sorting out some of the issues around places would be if there was a centralised way of distributing places, based on the preferences of the parents (you list schools in order of preference and then are assigned the highest preference, based on availability). It'd certainly sort out those parents who have their kids on loads of different lists (which I don't have a problem with) and then accept 2,3 or even 4 places for one child. But can't see this happening - each school has its own enrolment policy and patrons wouldn't hand the responisibility over to dept. Also although they won't admit it - the Dept don't give a rats @rse what type of school you'd like for your child - as far as they are concerned they divide number of places available in an area by number of children and thats that (they truly think you should be grateful for ANY place) a desks a desk as far as they are concerned.

TempestSabre

Its done based on age only. So for example say you've been in the area for 20yrs and have other children in the school . But your child is one week younger than someone who moved there last week they get the place not you. Because our area is massive over developed (planning again) the schools can't cope with the demand.

lostexpectation

kippy wrote:

I have great issue with this comment. Mainly because laziness is partly the reason that the OP wanted his kid in this school in the first place-if he really was so bothered about the churches influence on the school he would not want his kid going there but the school was close.

FACT- Predominatley catholic country-practicing or not. If you in the minority want to force the existing schools to change then you are as bad as the church-there are other options for eduction popping up. Religion is not forced on everyone in school, kids can be removed from religious teachings by their parents and will instead do something else to fill in the time. Personally I am glad religion is taught in schools, it give the child a chance to make up their own mind. A lot of catholic parents as mentioned already arent practising at all-what difference does it make?
As I said before parents should be aware that the decisions they make about religion or lack thereof will have an impact on many aspects of their childs future.
Kippy

most people in ireland still believe in some catholic type of god but don't believe in the church nad don't worship in it, so you and schools need to get with the times not us

kippy

most people in ireland still believe in some catholic type of god but don't believe in the church nad don't worship in it, so you and schools need to get with the times not us

So myself and schools need to get with the times.....
I've pretty much agree with your comment, read my post fully above, but see no problem with the running of schools as they are at the moment. More funding is always needed of course. but personally having been taught in one of these schools and seeing the amount of religion that is actually taught and the ways schools now allow for those of other or no faiths-I dont have any problems.
Again, parents should be aware of the impact their personal decisions have on the lives of their children.

OTK

I met the minister for education recently who seems very together. She has announced a new patronage model for primary schools to be run on a pilot basis. These schools will not choose pupils and teachers on the basis of religion. It's a small step but it's a step in the right direction.
http://www.education.ie/home/home.jsp?maincat=10861&pcategory=10861&ecategory=10876&sectionpage=13637&language=EN&link=link001&page=1&doc=34229

Expect to hear more about the role of the church in education when the Dublin Diocese clerical child rape audit is completed.

RainyDay

OTK wrote:

I met the minister for education recently who seems very together. She has announced a new patronage model for primary schools to be run on a pilot basis. These schools will not choose pupils and teachers on the basis of religion. It's a small step but it's a step in the right direction.
http://www.education.ie/home/home.jsp?maincat=10861&pcategory=10861&ecategory=10876&sectionpage=13637&language=EN&link=link001&page=1&doc=34229

Isn't it nice of her to come up with some innovative ideas just 3 months before an election. Given that her party has been in power for the past 10 years, I'd be more inclined to criticise her inactivity for the 10 years rather than her recent fluffy announcement of intention.

BostonB

OTK wrote:

I told the school today that my wife had made a mistake and that the child was not baptised. I asked if this made any difference and they laughed and said no, that they choose on the basis of living close to the school and first come first served (you have to queue early in the morning on a certain date as my wife did). They told me there were 'plenty' of unbaptised children in the school who didn't take part in first communion.

Well I am afraid I will have to dismount from my high horse as my assumptions based on being asked for a baptismal cert were completely wrong.

OTK wrote:

I met the minister for education recently who seems very together. She has announced a new patronage model for primary schools to be run on a pilot basis. These schools will not choose pupils and teachers on the basis of religion. It's a small step but it's a step in the right direction.
http://www.education.ie/home/home.jsp?maincat=10861&pcategory=10861&ecategory=10876&sectionpage=13637&language=EN&link=link001&page=1&doc=34229

Expect to hear more about the role of the church in education when the Dublin Diocese clerical child rape audit is completed.

Holy thread resurrection :eek:

You mean the schools will operate pretty much the same as they do now as your own experience illustrates. Except a politician will make a song and dance about it pre-election. I hope people remember which politicians have let the schools crisis develop, due to their miss-management of...well everything.

I'm sure we'll have a lot of people on a bandwagon about church in education as if we're still back in the 60 & 70's. Are there any clergy still teaching I wonder? There were hardly any 20 yrs ago I have no idea what's it like now. I'd assume theres even less now.

BTW what school is the minister talking about. The new schools St Patricks? Or a completely new school.

Nevyn

OTK wrote:

These schools will not choose pupils and teachers on the basis of religion. It's a small step but it's a step in the right direction.

Yes but what will be the ethos of those school the fact that even if a chool si inclusive that they have homework like 'put in the ch word' with scentces like
I go to chruch on sundays' is still heavily biased.

Expect to hear more about the role of the church in education when the Dublin Diocese clerical child rape audit is completed.

There is hope in certain circles that the government will use this as an exucse to take over the patronage of schools, also most parishes and dioses don't have the funds or the time for the running of schools.

RainyDay

Thaedydal wrote:

There is hope in certain circles that the government will use this as an exucse to take over the patronage of schools, also most parishes and dioses don't have the funds or the time for the running of schools.

I can't see any of the churches giving up their patronage without the mother of all battles.

deisemum

RainyDay wrote:

I can't see any of the churches giving up their patronage without the mother of all battles.

I agree with you on that.

foxinsocks

I dunno, i've just recently been in touch with the local non catholic school. There is only one, but its still 'christian' or 'bible' based. Where we live, its either that, or Catholic. I was on the phone to the principal, and she said 'You do know we're more protestant than catholic, right?' and after i answered in the affirmative we proceeded to have a conversation about religion in the classroom, and whether or not i was ok with having my daughter sit in a religion class.

I have no problems at all with my daughter knowing *about* religion, taught in way that is something like 'Some people believe in this, and here are the ways they show it'. I do not like it being taught as fact. I do not like the idea of my child being taught prayers, and encouraged to pray. To me it smacks of brainwashing and cults honestly. I realise this is an extreme view, but it's how I feel about it. I do not want anyone telling my daughter that god or jesus or angels or anything else is watching over her, especially when it will be coming from a teacher, someone children are supposed to believe and trust.

I do not like the fact that at four years of age I have no choice but to put her in a school that does some religion every single day. I do have the choice of home schooling, but my daughter is odd enough already without taking away her ability to socialise.

My question is this. Why is it even necessary to teach a FOUR year old about life and death and sin and god and all the other crap that goes with it. And, why is it necessary to cover it EVERY day. I do not have the ability to just opt my child out of the religion class, they of course do not have the staff to look after a lone 4 year old. I personally believe that 'religion' class should be left out until the child is old enough to look after itself for a half an hour, or should be an optional extra curricular activity, like Sunday School.

I'm actually wondering if there is any way I can pick my daughter up for the 30 minutes, or hour, or however long they actually spend, and take her to feed the ducks or something... But again, i'll be dragging her out away from her friends, and having her miss out and risking her feeling excluded.

In the end, I know i'm probably making a big deal in my head about nothing. So long as I explain things to her myself, and actually take an interest and an extensive hand in her education both religious, and secular, then I don't have anything to worry about...

It just ANNOYS me that I have no real choice.

georgie59

Firstly I'm on the board of management of one of these non catholic schools (church of Ireland) and whilst religon is taught at this school it is non compulory in our school the child can do other stuff but does have to stay in the class room and other activites like takin part in either a harvest thanks giving service or carol service is entirely voluntary, and as a parent representative on the board we are not rail roaded by the the local minister (although I might be lucky with the minister in question being a sound enough kind of bloke).

One question to the people on this thread when the school nativity plays are held do you let them take part. I find alot of parents will do the nativity bit but then say they don't want their child to be involved in the religious aspect of the school.

dame

I remember Jehovah's Witnesses having the same problem when we were kids. We'd be all learning about Christmas and getting ready for the Nativity play and their kids would want to get involved. They'd be sitting at the side by themselves drawing pictures and I suppose they couldnt but pick up on the excitement. Their parents came into the school and cmplained that their kids were coming home and asking to be in the play and asking about Santa Claus. They didn't want anything to do with Christmas as far as I remember but it must be hard being one of only two kids in the room not allowed to join in. Even art and craft for a few weeks before Christmas revolved around making cards and gifts for people! The teacher couldn't really deprive the other kids of their enjoyment in making Christmas cards and decorations just because one family wanted no mention of it at all.

My own daughter is on the list for the local Gaelscoil and even they ask for the child's baptismal cert, even though I doubt they'd refuse to enrol them if they weren't baptised or were of another faith (or none at all).

RainyDay

dame wrote:

My own daughter is on the list for the local Gaelscoil and even they ask for the child's baptismal cert, even though I doubt they'd refuse to enrol them if they weren't baptised or were of another faith (or none at all).

Check their enrollment policy. It's not a matter of refusal, but of prioritisation. Assuming they have a Catholic ethos (and that is the only possible reason for asking for the baptismal cert), they will give priority to Catholic children. If they are over-subscribed (as are most Gaelscoileanna), non-Catholic children will be on the bottom of the priority list, and will effectively be refused entry.

OTK

I think this would be a less divided country if we let our children attend school together regardless of religious affiliation of the parents and to let religious matters be attened to outside of the school gate by the respective churches. I would again urge anyone who feels that it is wrong to allow more than 99% of state funded primary schools in Ireland to be operated with pupil and teacher selection policies of open religious discrimination to write to the minister Mary Hanafin.

I would remind you that your taxes pay the running cost of these schools and that while the church may protest that they own the school buildings, they collected this money from your parents.

Address:
Department of Education
and Science,
Marlborough Street, Dublin 1

Zambia

eth0_ wrote:

My sister had to put her kids down for one in the North as soon as they were born, and there's much more of those types of schools there!
QUOTE]

Please tell me they live here and its not another long morning commute story...

Personnally in this case it really feels like the tail is trying to wag the dog here. I agree that the OP in this case just wanted to bunk into the closest school and was too lazy to drive a little further for his beliefs.

Fact is that the religous orders ran the schools for years now there are people who want to just tell them they should have nothing to do with education in Ireland. Thats just wrong they own the Land the schools are built on and several of the clerical staff are excellent teachers.

I went to such a school and in no way feel brain washed likewise my friends who left dont either. I am against this idea you can brain wash a child at that age, they will make there own mind up when they are old enough anyway. In essence a child is taught right and wrong and its true enough that several kids ignore it anyway.

If you want a Multi-denominational school closer to you I suggest you use your vote and lobby for it. Sure there have been cases of abuse in the clergy but ordinary teachers commit this act to. Demonising all priests is not the answer.

While the state does pay for these teachers they also have reaped the benefits of a school infrastructure for many years when no-one objected.

OTK

The main arguments for and against allowing primary education in Ireland to be divided on religious grounds have been covered already in this thread.

Nevyn

http://www.dublin15.ie/pages/CV86/cv86n01.htm

VEC national school for Castleknock

A decision by the Catholic Church authorities not to proceed with the building of a new primary school in Porterstown has lead to the government authorising the Co. Dublin VEC to provide the first ever VEC run primary school in Ireland.

Following problems with increasing pupil numbers in the two schools serving Porterstown parish, the diocesan authorities initially applied, as school patron, to build a third school in the parish. However more recently they withdrew that application.

Last year to meet the demand from children applying to St. Patrick's National School in Diswellstown, the school accepted an additional fourth stream of pupils. This year the school is reverting to its approved three streams. Meanwhile the other school in the parish, St. Mochta’s, will this year accept a fourth stream to meet demand.

Community Voice understands that the parish authorities have recently initiated a common enrolment policy between the two schools. In addition it is also more rigidly enforcing one of the entry requirements of the school – that children must be baptised Catholics. Written evidence of baptism is required and the baptism must have taken place at least two years prior to enrolment.

It is understood that the Department of Education & Science has independently evaluated the demographic trends in the area and decided that the indications were that a third school would be required in the very near future. As a result of the decision of Catholic Archdiocese not to pursue its application for an additional school, the Government has now formally created a new model of primary school with a Vocational Education Committee acting as patron of the school for the first time.

This new school will be called Diswellstown Community National School. It will be community based and under the auspices of Co. Dublin VEC. The Department of Education & Science intends to have the new community national school in operation by September 2008.

However Minster for Children, Brian Lenihan anticipates that demand for the new school may actually require it to be opened by September of this year.

“I have asked the Department to follow up with the Board of Management of St. Patrick’s for details of the pupils who have not received school places so that plans can be put in place and monies allocated. This will allow the new community national school to have accommodation arranged for this September,” he told Community Voice.

St. Patrick’s National School is due to offer school places towards the end of this month. It is understood that the Department has agreed consider to the need for a new school beginning this September, depending on these enrolments. Steps are currently being taken to source temporary accommodation in the Castleknock area for such an eventuality.

“With the large influx of non-Irish, non-catholic families into the area, any decision by the church authorities to prioritise places for catholic children will inevitably leave many of these non-Irish children without school places in the coming year unless steps are taken immediately,” according to one local teacher

Oh the joys now of a state segreated primary school system...

BostonB

Thaedydal wrote:

http://www.dublin15.ie/pages/CV86/cv86n01.htm



Oh the joys now of a state segreated primary school system...

The joys of successive years of bad planning and bad Govts that do nothing to prevent these problems from happening. In D.15 theres 40-60 local kids who can't get places in the secondary schools this year. Basically the developers have run wild, the planning has been abysmal and now the kids will suffer because it it. Ironically theres a photos of bertie opening a new school in the local rags too.


I don't get this this thread. Once you have a kid, you have a few years before you have to decide which school to send them to. If you have major issues with Religion being taught, you have plenty of time to plan their schooling to avoid it.

foxinsocks

BostonB wrote:

I don't get this this thread. Once you have a kid, you have a few years before you have to decide which school to send them to. If you have major issues with Religion being taught, you have plenty of time to plan their schooling to avoid it.

Avoiding it where I live (Smalltown Ireland) isnt a realistic option, unless I want to commute an hour in the morning and afternoon, every day, which isnt fair on babs or me, or I want to home school, which is really not suitable for my child.

In Dublin, there are non religious options, but you do not have a few years to plan it, those options are so over subscribed you need to put their names down when they're a foetus practically.

Fox in Socks

Nevyn

BostonB wrote:

I don't get this this thread. Once you have a kid, you have a few years before you have to decide which school to send them to. If you have major issues with Religion being taught, you have plenty of time to plan their schooling to avoid it.

Nope you don't have a few years, in some places applications are date and time stamped for your place on the waiting list and there are applications made for
'Baby Murphy' once Mammy Murphy is expecting.

Many people don't realise how primary schools are set up or how the patronage is set up they assume the Dept of education is in charge of them.
They get quite the shock when they see how things are.

Plan the schooling how ? by moving house ?
Should we really have to move house or spend over 30 mins gettng our children to school in the morning ?

It is not the teaching about religion it is the indoctrination that happens in the schools with mostly catholic patronage.

foxinsocks

The school where I'm sending Hannah isnt even Catholic, its 'mostly protestant' (using their words) with 'bible based' religious schooling, every single day. From what I know of the school, they have the local CoI, Methodist, and Presbyterian ministers on the board. I know 2 of them, (Smalltown Syndrome) and they're good guys, which is why I'm even remotely comfortable with sending her there.

Like I said, I'm just going to have to take an active interest in her schooling, and make sure she sees all sides of religion, and no religion.

Fox

BostonB

Thaedydal wrote:

....Plan the schooling how ? by moving house ?
Should we really have to move house or spend over 30 mins gettng our children to school in the morning ?

Some people are willing to do it. If you're not that your own decision.

Thaedydal wrote:

It is not the teaching about religion it is the indoctrination that happens in the schools with mostly catholic patronage.

Is that not why its called a catholic school? Ditto any other religious school of any faith? Have they not done this for decades?

BostonB

foxinsocks wrote:

Avoiding it where I live (Smalltown Ireland) isnt a realistic option, unless I want to commute an hour in the morning and afternoon, every day, which isnt fair on babs or me, or I want to home school, which is really not suitable for my child.

In Dublin, there are non religious options, but you do not have a few years to plan it, those options are so over subscribed you need to put their names down when they're a foetus practically.

Fox in Socks

When I picked where I lived I considered the services and amenities schools, transport links, employment etc. as part of the criteria. Location, location location. That was before I started a family. That just the way it works.


Successive Govts have failed people by not providing more choice. Indeed in some areas not providing enough schools places of any kind. Hence the farce in Laytown for example. But you't can plead that your unaware of these issues they are constantly in the media, and you would hear other people talking about it. The hassle of getting into schools has been an issue for generations and not just in Ireland either.

ArthurDent

BostonB wrote:

When I picked where I lived I considered the services and amenities schools, transport links, employment etc. as part of the criteria. Location, location location. That was before I started a family. That just the way it works.


Successive Govts have failed people by not providing more choice. Indeed in some areas not providing enough schools places of any kind. Hence the farce in Laytown for example. But you't can plead that your unaware of these issues they are constantly in the media, and you would hear other people talking about it. The hassle of getting into schools has been an issue for generations and not just in Ireland either.

I agree with you to a certain extent, you have to have a degree of personal responsibility when you are decideding where to live and what you need to access from where you live, BUT surely the state has responsibilty to provide an adaquate level of schooling that is suitable for the community. Surely we pay taxes to ensure an adaquate level of necessary infrastructure (schools, hospitals, roads etc). I'm sick and tired of listening to the dept of Education and Minister Hanafin defending the lack of places never mind the lack of choice by saying we couldn't plan for the change in demographics etc. Local government give planning permission so they know how many houses are to be built and there are well established models to predict age profiles in new areas and every child is registered at or near birth for childrens allowance and registered at a specific area - it can't be that difficult to correlate figures for those collecting child benefit with nowing that in approximately 4 years this baba is going to need a school place. The only area where I have a little sympathy with the authorities is in the number of immigrants/returning emigrants - those numbers would have been much more difficult to predict. And don't get me started on the way that a reserved site is "reserved" but not purchased when the land is released for houses to be built on it and only purchased by the dept later on at vastly inflated (same price as if houses are to be built on it) prices. The goverment has a obligation to rovide for the education of its citizens (taking aside the issue of patronage) and its disgusting that kids all around the country are having to be educated in port-a-cabins and some may go through their whole primary education without ever being in a permenant building.

iguana

Thaedydal wrote:

Nope you don't have a few years, in some places applications are date and time stamped for your place on the waiting list and there are applications made for
'Baby Murphy' once Mammy Murphy is expecting.

Someone I know applied to register her unborn child with a popular non-denominational school in Dublin and the year her child would have been due to start was already full. It's really ƒu©ked up. I honestly believe I will end up home-schooling my kids when I have them.