Croatia -v- England, Wednesday @ 18.00

radiospan

Any video online of Neville's o.g.?

RasTa

Most people on the English forums(dvdforums) seem to be blaming Robinson

Kold

McClaren out. Seriously.

4 regular Midfielders injured/suspended, a 5 man midfield played and still no place for Beckham? He may not be as good as he was (or ever as good as was implied) but I don't think anyone thinks Gerrard is better in that role. It was a foolish gesture and it's hurting the team. Why is the midfield based around Lampard? Talented as he may be, he hasn't seen form since before the world cup. Crouch and Rooney is a joke too, frankly, I'd rather see Bent and Johnson.

The under-21s would've done a better job.

mike65

Theo Walcott first senior start can't be far away.

Mike.

Thanx 4 The Fish

Anybody got a video of Nevilles strike ?

kinaldo

Just back from the game at Lansdowne, absolutely gutted we didn't win but this has considerably cheered me up - can't wait to see Neville's goal:)

mike65

It was'nt that good!

Mike.

county

what was the story with england fans at the game?(just finished work)

mike65

Nothing much, before the game fans who had tickets were blocked off from entering, the cops got a bit "leary" some fans used a barrier in front of them to shove the police back and not much else happened as far as I could tell.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uklatest/story/0,,-6140515,00.html

Mike.

Vokes

I think, from the few seconds i saw of it, it was to do with a very small bunch of England fans outside the ground. The Authorities wouldn't let them in, and err, those fans weren't happy (obviously) so caused a bit of a ruckus.

MrJoeSoap

Neville Own-Goal

http://rapidshare.de/files/36399351/VID0003_EDIT0000.AVI.html

Youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4607dtgtTo

county

just seen the Neville Own-Goal,robinson wants shooting,oh my god.david james stroke two

MrJoeSoap

Ah I think Sky (and tomorrows Sun) are being a bit harsh, it was a freak bobble. Robinson made numerous saves before and after that goal that kept England in the game.

Why are the English press always so keen to find a scapegoat. They deserved nothing tonight and were already behind and struggling.

county

sorry i disagree,yes there was a bobble but robinson should have controlled the ball first.


i agree he made a good few saves but whats the point when you cant do basic ball control,whether your a keeper or out field player

Xavi6

You're 1-0 down against a country that has never lost a competitive game at home. There is no way you take a touch in that situation and risk conceding a second with a striker rushing to close you down. Robinson was unlucky. 99 times out of 100 that ball would have ended up on Crouch's head down the far end of the pitch. It was just unlucky (and funny!).

Spider_Baby!

Its ridiculous to put the blame on Robinson. How, in any way, could that be his fault?

BaZmO*

county wrote:

sorry i disagree,yes there was a bobble but robinson should have controlled the ball first.

And I'll hve to disagree. There's no way he should tried to control the ball, as Xavi6 said.....

It was just unlucky (and funny!).

How true...:D

Xavi6

If anyone's to blame it's Neville.

Never play a backpass on target.

county

Xavi6 wrote:

If anyone's to blame it's Neville.

Never play a backpass on target.

very true words:D

MisterAnarchy

Typical English reaction,blame the manager.
They expect a victory in every away match ,they pay no respect to the opposition,and they blow up the reputations of their own 'Premiership' players.
As quite rightly said above Croatia have never lost a home competitive match yet England thought they would easily win,despite the fact England have been extremely poor in most of their away matches over the last 5 years.
I had a nice bet on the match and I'll be collecting tomorrow.

gimmick

McClaren out.

No One else can possibly be to blame.

Everyone out.

Over reactions IN!!!!!!!!!!

Jivin Turkey

MisterAnarchy wrote:

Typical English reaction,blame the manager.

To be fair he tried a new formation, which none of the players would be familiar with at club or international level in, in probably their toughest qualifying game, despite missing three or four key players.

MisterAnarchy wrote:

They expect a victory in every away match ,they pay no respect to the opposition,and they blow up the reputations of their own 'Premiership' players.

No respect? Didn't they line up with five defenders and two holding midfielders?

If anything they invited the Croatians to attack them.

MisterAnarchy wrote:

As quite rightly said above Croatia have never lost a home competitive match yet England thought they would easily win

How does fielding eight out of eleven defensive minded players equate to thinking you would easily win?

MisterAnarchy wrote:

despite the fact England have been extremely poor in most of their away matches over the last 5 years.

So please enlighten us as to when the last time was that England lost away from home to one of their main rivals in a qualifying campaign?

Something tells me you are going to completely ignore this question and continue with your anti English/Premiership diatribe that you so often come out with.

marius

Jivin Turkey wrote:

So please enlighten us as to when the last time was that England lost away from home to one of their main rivals in a qualifying campaign?

Something tells me you are going to completely ignore this question and continue with your anti English/Premiership diatribe that you so often come out with.

Why are you putting the 'main rivals' clause into this - what the hell has that got to do with anything. England have been pretty poor away from home for the last few years - the 1-0 to NI springs to mind....

zAbbo

It bobbled over the patch of turf Robinson use's for kickouts, so in a way it was his fault

Hilarious goal all the same.

Jivin Turkey

marius wrote:

Why are you putting the 'main rivals' clause into this - what the hell has that got to do with anything. England have been pretty poor away from home for the last few years - the 1-0 to NI springs to mind....

One result. In a derby style game where to use a cliche "form goes out the window".

It was claimed that England had been extremely poor in most their away games in the last five years.

To the best of my knowledge they have lost one competitive qualifier in that time. And guess what? They also beat Germany 5 - 1 in Germany in that time but I'd still never claim them to be the best based on one result.

But come on then, tell me the other competitive games that they have "pretty poor" in.

redspider

Well, McClarens honeymoon period is clearly over. The 3-5-2 formation was a mistake, 4-5-1 would have been a better option if England were going for a draw.

I dont think you can blame Neville or Robinson much for the 2nd goal. I would put it as 90% pitch bobble, 3% Neville, 7% Robinson.

But it matters little, overall, they deserved to lose this match. But its an easy group and I still expect them to qualify. Overall, the two points dropped at home v Macedonia is worse than the 1 pt dropped v Croatia. They have plenty of opportunities to recover and their challengers are likely to have a slip or two.

Redspider

marius

Jivin Turkey wrote:

One result. In a derby style game where to use a cliche "form goes out the window".

It was claimed that England had been extremely poor in most their away games in the last five years.

To the best of my knowledge they have lost one competitive qualifier in that time. And guess what? They also beat Germany 5 - 1 in Germany in that time but I'd still never claim them to be the best based on one result.

But come on then, tell me the other competitive games that they have "pretty poor" in.

In their last qualification gruop......

Away to austria they were appaling and were lucky to get a 2-2 draw, away to azerbaijan ther struggled to a 1-0 victory and obviously then loosing to NI.

Also - every single game they played in the world cup.....

MisterAnarchy

Jivin Turkey wrote:

So please enlighten us as to when the last time was that England lost away from home to one of their main rivals in a qualifying campaign?

Something tells me you are going to completely ignore this question and continue with your anti English/Premiership diatribe that you so often come out with.

I'll answer that question.
England have been effective but extremely limited in most of their away matches.
They have played defensive minded ,long ball football .
In the last 2 years they were humiliated 4-1 by Denmark,given a football lesson by Spain losing 1-0,they lost 1-0 to Sweden.
Northern Ireland also beat them.
Most of these were friendly matches but the signs were there.
Last night the most damning indictment of all was that England did not have a shot on target until the 90th minute.
Rooney has not scoring a competitive goal for 2 years and not scoring a goal at all in 14 games for his national side, even Emile Heskey's longest drought for England was 8 games.
Before the match McClaren had called for a performance of character, pride, passion and work-rate.
Sadly, but hardly surprisingly, he did not talk about skill or those little moments of ingenuity which decide games at this level.
John Terry said England had five or six ‘world-class’ players and that the system would allow them to get into Croatian faces.
Well, the myth of both those claims had been firmly debunked inside an hour.
World-class players deliver world-class performances. And when did an Englishman last do that?
All this talk about the so-called Golden Generation and how England could have won the last World Cup has been exposed for the bunkum it long was.
Now, perhaps, England can enter a period of reality, finally understanding that their players are far removed from the superstar status all too easily bestowed on them.

Jivin Turkey

marius wrote:

In their last qualification gruop......

Away to austria they were appaling and were lucky to get a 2-2 draw, away to azerbaijan ther struggled to a 1-0 victory and obviously then loosing to NI.

If by lucky to get a 2-2 draw with Austria you mean threw away a two goal lead with twenty minutes to go, then yes they were lucky.

They scored early against Azerbaijan and had the game won, they didn't struggle at all, they had the points pretty much sewn up after twenty minutes.

How did they do against Poland coincidentally? In the away match that mattered most in the group.

marius wrote:

Also - every single game they played in the world cup.....

Yes on neutral venues. If we want to include these why not include the win over Argentina?

And to be honest their record in championships over the last five years is not bad, QFs every time.

MisterAnarchy wrote:

I'll answer that question.
England have been effective but extremely limited in most of their away matches.

So we are agreed, Englands away record in qualifiers is very good. Thank you.

MisterAnarchy wrote:

In the last 2 years they were humiliated 4-1 by Denmark,given a football lesson by Spain losing 1-0,they lost 1-0 to Sweden.
Northern Ireland also beat them.
Most of these were friendly matches but the signs were there.

You are citing friendly matches as an indication of how good they are. That is a ridiculous arguement.

After all we know Sweden are no great shakes, sure they got hockeyed by a pack of jokers called the Republic of Ireland 3-0 :rolleyes:

MisterAnarchy wrote:

Rooney has not scoring a competitive goal for 2 years and not scoring a goal at all in 14 games for his national side, even Emile Heskey's longest drought for England was 8 games.

Are you trying to say that Rooney is not a world class player? Are you trying to say Emile Heskey is? I don't follow you.

MisterAnarchy wrote:

Sadly, but hardly surprisingly, he did not talk about skill or those little moments of ingenuity which decide games at this level.

Just like Greece in 2004 yeah? Just like Cannavaro and his Italian team mates this year?

You are dead right as usual, defensive teams never succeed in international football

marius

Jivin Turkey wrote:

Yes on neutral venues. If we want to include these why not include the win over Argentina?
.......
.......
You are citing friendly matches as an indication of how good they are. That is a ridiculous arguement.

ahem...;)

Jivin Turkey wrote:

If by lucky to get a 2-2 draw with Austria you mean threw away a two goal lead with twenty minutes to go, then yes they were lucky.

Lucky or not Lucky - it was still a poor performance - 'they threw away a 2 goal lead'

As for the Azerbaijan game - beating a team like azerbaijan 1-0 when you have the quility england have is a poor performance - especially after going 1-0 up after 20 mins is 'poor'

Jivin Turkey

marius wrote:

ahem...;)

Which is why I didn't use that result as an indication of how good they are/are not away from home in the first place. I just though it was ironic that you included some poor results on neutral grounds but not the good ones.

Oh and

marius wrote:

Lucky or not Lucky - it was still a poor performance - 'they threw away a 2 goal lead'

Did you see the game? England dominated it, but took their foot off the gas towards the end, gave away a sloppy goal resulting in panic setting in. Austria deserved nothing out of the game.

marius wrote:

As for the Azerbaijan game - beating a team like azerbaijan 1-0 when you have the quility england have is a poor performance - especially after going 1-0 up after 20 mins is 'poor'

I'm hardly saying it was an incredible performance but I'm sure it can be chalked off as "one of those days" where when it came down to it they "got what we came here for".

marius

Jivin Turkey wrote:

Which is why I didn't use that result as an indication of how good they are/are not away from home in the first place. I just though it was ironic that you included some poor results on neutral grounds but not the good ones.

Oh and

hardly ironic and anyway I included poor results that were world cup games. You are talking about a friendly match....but lets not get off topic....

Jivin Turkey wrote:

Did you see the game? England dominated it, but took their foot off the gas towards the end, gave away a sloppy goal resulting in panic setting in. Austria deserved nothing out of the game.

Yes, I saw the game...england played pretty well for the first half against a below average Austria side, they then proceeded to concede a very sloppy goal and then, as you admit, panicked and conceded another goal to come away from a game they should have won comfortably with a 2-2 draw - That IS a poor performance.....

Jivin Turkey wrote:

I'm hardly saying it was an incredible performance but I'm sure it can be chalked off as "one of those days" where when it came down to it they "got what we came here for".

so we agree that one was a poor performance too...."one of those days".....yes they won but like I said it was a poor performance.....

so in their last qualifying campaign we have what I would term 3 poor away performances, NI Azerbaijan and Austria.....one pretty good one against Sweden.....and a 1-0 against wales which to be honest I cant really remember much about.

Jivin Turkey

marius wrote:

Yes, I saw the game...england played pretty well for the first half against a below average Austria side, they then proceeded to concede a very sloppy goal and then, as you admit, panicked and conceded another goal to come away from a game they should have won comfortably with a 2-2 draw - That IS a poor performance.....

Not really, you could say there were robbed. Taking your foot off the gas for twenty minutes does not constiture "a poor performance". It's less than a quarter of the game.

marius wrote:

so we agree that one was a poor performance too...."one of those days".....yes they won but like I said it was a poor performance.....

One of those days as in on a different day they could have scored five. Azerbaijan had a couple of chances to be fair but England always seemed to be able to cut them open if required. There was no need however.

marius wrote:

so in their last qualifying campaign we have what I would term 3 poor away performances, NI Azerbaijan and Austria.....one pretty good one against Sweden.....and a 1-0 against wales which to be honest I cant really remember much about.

For a start They didn't play Sweden in their last campaign.

Secondly if out of five away games a record of W3 D1 L1 is "poor", I hope Ireland start playing "poorly" away from home from now on. For a team with qualification expectations away performances mean nothing. The result is all that matters. International football is about winning your home games and not getting beaten away by your rivals.

You and MisterAnarchy have claimed that England's away record over the last five years has been "poor" and this result is another one to add to the list. For the record I'll just enlighten you as to their away results over those three campaigns.

2006 - P5 W3 D1 L1
2004 - P4 W3 D1 L0
2002 - P4 W3 D0 L1

Totalling P11 W9 D2 L2

Poor indeed. :rolleyes:

eirebhoy

I don't know about England's away record but their performance away from home have been absolutely abysmal. I'd say the match in Poland was the only time they played relatively well in recent years.

Wales deserved something against them. N.Ireland got something against them. Azerbaijan deserved something off them. Austria got something from them.

Their defence kept them in every game and that certainly wasn't down to a gameplan.

marius

Jivin Turkey wrote:

Not really, you could say there were robbed. Taking your foot off the gas for twenty minutes does not constiture "a poor performance". It's less than a quarter of the game.

you could say that and you could also say that ireland were robbed away to israel - you would be wrong though....we played crap and got what we deserved, england played crap and were lucky to come away with a win...and yes I know the won - results are not what we were talking about....it was playing poorly away from home

Jivin Turkey wrote:

One of those days as in on a different day they could have scored five. Azerbaijan had a couple of chances to be fair but England always seemed to be able to cut them open if required. There was no need however.

I can't believe you are trying to defend this performance - yes they got the result...but I am not, nor have I been, talking about results - ther played poorly and got a result - they still played poorly

Jivin Turkey wrote:

For a start They didn't play Sweden in their last campaign.

oops...:D

Jivin Turkey wrote:

Secondly if out of five away games a record of W3 D1 L1 is "poor", I hope Ireland start playing "poorly" away from home from now on. For a team with qualification expectations away performances mean nothing. The result is all that matters. International football is about winning your home games and not getting beaten away by your rivals.

the result is all that matters - I know but we were not talking about results - I know their results....I am talking about how they played - and in particular to how they played against poor teams......

Jivin Turkey wrote:

You and MisterAnarchy have claimed that England's away record over the last five years has been "poor"

nope - neither of us were talking about their resord - look back over the thread - neither of us mentioned their record, I know the results...
I was talking about performances, they played poorly away from home....that is all I ever maintained...

Jivin Turkey

Isn't away football about grinding out results?

If their defence kept them in the game isn't that exactly what they would have done?

In reality it is very rare European international sides go away from home and end up hockeying teams.

Italy, France, Spain and others have all gone away from home in recent years and been embarassed.

I, nor I'm sure their manager or their fans, care about the performance once they were seen through. Just like we would be. I've no interest in arguing over how they performed because it is subjective over what is a "good performance".

But out of interest what is the barometer in your opinion for a "good away performance"? Like I said above, their is no yard stick because every big European team are regularly hit and miss with their performances. What makes Englands any worse than others?

eirebhoy

Jivin Turkey wrote:

Isn't away football about grinding out results?

If their defence kept them in the game isn't that exactly what they would have done?

True but you'd have to watch their performances against Austria, N.Ireland, Azerbaijan and Wales. How they got 7 points from them I'll never know.

mike65

Anyone fancy dragging Italy and France into this argument?

Mike.

marius

Jivin Turkey wrote:

Isn't away football about grinding out results?

England should not be trying to ground out results against azerbaijan - away or not. They shuold be aiming to perform well and the result should follow...

Jivin Turkey wrote:

If their defence kept them in the game isn't that exactly what they would have done?

In reality it is very rare European international sides go away from home and end up hockeying teams.

Italy, France, Spain and others have all gone away from home in recent years and been embarassed.

I, nor I'm sure their manager or their fans, care about the performance once they were seen through. Just like we would be. I've no interest in arguing over how they performed because it is subjective over what is a "good performance".

But out of interest what is the barometer in your opinion for a "good away performance"? Like I said above, their is no yard stick because every big European team are regularly hit and miss with their performances.

I think the problem is that when you get the results (in this case away from home) playing badly it can paper over the serious deficiencies in the team. People say that they got the result in the end against these teams (most of which they really should be comfortably beating). But you then go into a world cup and perform the same way because it has become acceptable, but this time you are up against a higher calibre of team and you end up getting beaten. This has consistantly happened to England and I put it down to people claiming that it is only the result that matters.

It is fine to go 1-0 up away to azerbaijan, proceed to play crap and get a result but if this becomes a regular thing (which IMO it has for England) what happened in the world cup becomes an inevitability.

Jivin Turkey wrote:

What makes Englands any worse than others?

The regularity....

eirebhoy

mike65 wrote:

Anyone fancy dragging Italy and France into this argument?

Mike.

Ok. France and Italy have put in a few good performances within the last 4 years...

Rikand

Jivin Turkey wrote:

Are you trying to say that Rooney is not a world class player? Are you trying to say Emile Heskey is? I don't follow you.

i think it can be safely assumed that the point being made here is Rooney has been playing shiet on the international scene, whereas a pretty bad player like Heskey didnt have as bad a no-scoring streak. In other words, hes at nothing, drop him and crouch, play Bent and someone else up front for the next game

mike65

Wayne Rooney gestured to barracking fan! A particular (non)fan.

Mike.