Political Correctness problems

LegacyUser

Hey everybody,
Not sure if this fits in with personal issues as it's a pretty broad topic but it's affecting me directly so I'm putting it here.
Okay, the background story. My group of friends and I are all well educated, decent, sometimes crazy people. We're all in our early-mid 20s and since college have spread about the country a bit. Most of us are in Cork and Galway. This will sound terrible but when it comes to being politcally correct my friends fail miserably. It's not like they ever mean anything they say or that there is anything malicious about it but they tend to not know where the line is a bit. Normally, I'd share in the joke and have a laugh with them but one thing in particular has been bugging me recently.
I guess it started with my girlfriend. One of her sisters has Down's Syndrome and since meeting her I hate that my friends make inappropriate jokes about people with disabilities. In particular, one of my friends throws about the words "retard" and "spastic" far too liberally. Anytime I'd say anything he'll come back with, "it's a medical term blah blah blah". I know the word is a medical term and all but in modern times, it's a lot more than that and I find it offensive. Actually, I find the way it is used offensive more than anything.
Now I have the problem of how to handle this. I really can't stand my friends making jokes like that (not that it's often or ever malicious, as I said, my friends are good people, they just don't know where the line is with some things) and don't know what to do. How can I justify asking them to stop making those jokes and then turn the other cheek at other offensive jokes that don't bother me. That'd be a bit hypocritical and my friends will pick up on that immediately.
So I guess I'm asking, where do you draw the line? How can I claim to be offended about jokes at the expense of disabled people yet laugh at gay or racial jokes. It's all very hypocritical and I'm confused.

Talliesin

"Retard" is not a medical term, and "retarded" in general (as opposed to a particular measurement of development) isn't either.

"Spastic", as a noun, is a medical term for a person suffering from spastic paralysis.

"Moron" used to be a medical term. It's now a more general term, used for instance for people who don't know the difference between spastic paralysis and other conditions.

"Irritating little ****head" is a general term for someone who whines "its a medical term" when the above is pointed out.

The_Minister

Talliesin wrote:

"Retard" is not a medical term, and "retarded" in general (as opposed to a particular measurement of development) isn't either.

I think that your wrong. At college we have access to the American journal of Retardation.

Victor

The_Minister, I think you are missing the point. The OPs friend is using terms of abuse that point in one direction and would make quite a few people upset and embarrassed.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120188/quotes

[Conrad retrieved a map from an Iraqi's soldier's butt]
Sgt. Troy Barlow: Conrad, you've washed your hands like ten times.
Conrad Vig: Lord knows what kind of vermin live in the butt of a Dune Coon.
Chief Elgin: Why do you let this cracker hang around with you, man?
Sgt. Troy Barlow: He's all right, man. He's from a group home in Dallas. He's got no high school.
Conrad Vig: Don't tell people that.
Chief Elgin: I don't care if he's from Johannesburg. I don't want to hear Dune Coon or Sand ****** from him or anybody else.
Conrad Vig: Captain uses those terms.
Sgt. Troy Barlow: That's not the point, Conrad. The point is that Towel Head and Camel Jockey are perfectly good substitutes.
Chief Elgin: Exactly!

Odysseus

All I can say mate it it sounds like you have outgrown these people. Be real you are now in a position whereby this non-pc shi*e is sounding abusive, fair enought. I work in a difficult profession, we use so called balck humor a lot it merely a defense, and it does help. Howerver, to try that with someone who is experiencing certain issues in their life, it just sounds a tad abusive to me, if they were my mates, I would bin them. Not really sure if it helps mate, just my oipinion.

Caryatnid

PC_confused wrote:

So I guess I'm asking, where do you draw the line? How can I claim to be offended about jokes at the expense of disabled people yet laugh at gay or racial jokes. It's all very hypocritical and I'm confused.

Hello OP. I agree that it's all very hypocritical. I suggest you standardise your morals and either 'claim to be offended' at 'offensive jokes' or else just deal with all jokes.
I definitely think it's important your friends know how your situation has changed (you now know a down syndrome person), so that they are more sensitive towards you, but you are clearly being a hypocrite.

It seems you previously thought these jokes were funny? If your next girlfriend has a gay, or black brother, will you then find these jokes offensive? Will you then post the same question, asking how you can survive being a hypocrite? I think you should make up your mind about your morals, as currently you are just being selfish.

I'm also confused as to what response you wanted from your post. You say you know you are a hypocrite. Were you just looking for confirmation? I don't think advice like 'bin your mates' is helpful.

Catari Jaguar

retard and retardation are medical terms used in the us that we call severe general learning difficulties. tell them why u find it offensive and ask if he finds it ok, would he say it to a person suffering from a disability's face? i doubt it, so his point is then bull

Heh I thought this thread was about your computer.
I would just tell them if you find their jokes offensive. I would not bin them over it. Like you said it is hypocritical to make jokes about some 'taboo' topics and not others. If you expect your mates to stop using those terms, you will have to be more PC yourself.

thebman

I think it's wrong of your friends to make politically incorrect jokes if you know someone in that situation. Thats probably the cause of why you find what they say offensive now where you didn't before like you've pretty much said.

I'm not a politically correct person myself most of the time but only with my best mates and only the ones that I know don't know anyone in that kind of a situation because I'd feel like an ass if offended someone I know like that.

They probably don't know your finding it offensive now either because you never told them about your gf sisters problem or because they never coped on that you might find it offensive afterwards.

If I were you I'd just come out with it and tell them next time they make a joke about it. Mainly because it's the most likely thing to give them a wake up call.

One of my best friends is religious (in that he goes to church etc.., he's not a priest or anything) got offended and told me to stop making jokes about the church etc.. one day. He had a pretty pissed off look on his face so I figured fair enough, if he feels that strongly about it, I'll lay off and I've stop since.

Black Swan

PC_confused wrote:

I guess it started with my girlfriend. One of her sisters has Down's Syndrome and since meeting her I hate that my friends make inappropriate jokes about people with disabilities. In particular, one of my friends throws about the words "retard" and "spastic" far too liberally. Anytime I'd say anything he'll come back with, "it's a medical term blah blah blah".

"Inappropriate jokes?" Terminology has nothing to do with this. No one has the right to hurt the feelings of others, just to make a joke. Does this hurt the feelings of your g/f? It bothers you? If so, then you have to draw a line with your friends. Let your friends know that you don't want to hear it, and if they don't get the message, then perhaps it's time for new friends?

Jack B. Badd

OP, are they calling your gf's sister retarded or are they using it in a completely different context? Because there's a pretty big diffenence. Personally, I hate Political Correctness and I'll quite happily use non-PC terms. That said, I would never call a disabled person retarded because I find it unbelievably offensive, but I will call a thing/process/system or, for example, a person who has a brain in their head and refuses to use it out of sheer laziness retarded.

daithimac

I would be more concerned with your friends responce when you said you found the jokes too much.

Right responce: Oh crap sorry man I'll cut that **** out didn't realise it offended you.

Wrong responce: ah come on I'm only having a laugh!

If it was me I'd be mad as hell just because of that

The Corinthian

PC_confused wrote:

So I guess I'm asking, where do you draw the line? How can I claim to be offended about jokes at the expense of disabled people yet laugh at gay or racial jokes. It's all very hypocritical and I'm confused.

In the words of Homer Simpson; “it’s funny because it’s not me”.

And that pretty much explains most humour, PC or PIC. Bottom line is that you should ask yourself a single question - is taking offence at this reasonable?

If it is then whether they’re doing it for a laugh or not is irrelevant as they are causing discomfort to another, if it’s not then the person taking offence has to learn to deal with a reasonable level of humour at their expense. How you define what is reasonable or not comes down to you sitting down and working it out for yourself.

Personally I think all this talk of PC censorship is exaggerated. I can discuss ******s and *****s or ********** ***** all I want without fear of censorship.

LegacyUser

Caryatnid wrote:

Hello OP. I agree that it's all very hypocritical. I suggest you standardise your morals and either 'claim to be offended' at 'offensive jokes' or else just deal with all jokes.
I definitely think it's important your friends know how your situation has changed (you now know a down syndrome person), so that they are more sensitive towards you, but you are clearly being a hypocrite.

It seems you previously thought these jokes were funny? If your next girlfriend has a gay, or black brother, will you then find these jokes offensive? Will you then post the same question, asking how you can survive being a hypocrite? I think you should make up your mind about your morals, as currently you are just being selfish.

I'm also confused as to what response you wanted from your post. You say you know you are a hypocrite. Were you just looking for confirmation? I don't think advice like 'bin your mates' is helpful.

I second and thiird this. You are being a hypocrite from what I've read.

LegacyUser

First, thanks to all the guys for calling me a hypocrite. I realise the situation is hypocritical in itself which is why I posted here to guage peoples reactions. I'm at a whole crossroads thing and I'm trying to figure stuff out.

To clear up, I never really found any of these jokes funny (and it's not as bad or as frequent as some of ye may think - can't stress enough that my friends are good people, some do charity work and several have been affected by the likes of cancer, intellectual disabilities etc. So, they're not just being pricks.) but they never actually bothered me before.

I can relate to what you're saying brim4brim. A good friend of mine was very religious and he went back home to Egypt about a year or so ago. All my friends keep in contact online. As time went on, friends of my friends joined up and make some very bad taste comments directed at my friend (those guys are pricks and are not my friends) and in the end he had to leave. I stay in contact by email but it's **** like that, that I hate.

Blue_Lagoon: My gf would go bezerk if she heard comments like that.
Jack B. Badd: God no, they may make jokes but they'd never direct them at anyone
The Corinthian: That's probably the best advice I'v read.

I'm not going to bin my mates but I think I'm going to have to try and set some new ground rules. I don't want to end up loosing them as they were my college mates and I'v known em for 7 years now. It's a tricky thing but I'll just have to make a firm stance because I'm not comfortable with those kind of jokes anymore.

Froot

Yeah some friends of mine do that too.
Most notably one of them kept saying Polack outside a hotel in Cork which happens to have a mainly Polish workforce.
I said that he is perfectly entitled to his own opinion but that I was not getting my face smashed in by some angry Polish person just because he wanted to be a dumb bastard in public.
So he stopped and considered what I was saying and hasn't done it since.

Kell

The Corinthian wrote:

If it is then whether they’re doing it for a laugh or not is irrelevant as they are causing discomfort to another, if it’s not then the person taking offence has to learn to deal with a reasonable level of humour at their expense.

I can totally ****ing agree with your **** statement, again without fear of ****ing censorship.

It is simply a case of him pointing it out to friends that he finds x comments unacceptable. Most people are touchy about a friend/family member etc being slagged off when they have a condition as opposed to them being a muppet.

I think the OP is perfectly fine in his thinking. A mate has a gay brother- she can tolerate all slags about gays save for one, which we dont use. Its just a simple compromise on the OP's mates part.

K-

CathyMoran

I have never found it acceptable to laugh at other people in that way, for whatever the reason...I would say blonde jokes because I am blonde but what your friends are saying is out of line. I do think that at the very least your friends should be sensitive to your situation. I do not agree with censorship per say but your friends should at least have tact.

Laslo

I've found that political correctness is a convenient way for not-very-nice people to pretend that they're half way decent. You are defined by your actions and not your banter, regardless of how politically incorrect it is. Sure, you have to watch your P's and Q's around people. For example, using the word 'retard' in jest around someone who is close/related to a mentally disabled person is obviously out of line. However, the majority of people who will jump down your throat for something like this aren't close to a mentally disabled person and are just rabid PC-warriors. This is particularly true on Internet forums.

I love being politically incorrect and watching PC people foaming at the mouth and calling me a nazi fascist a$$hole. It kind of proves the point that where my little indirect slip (against mentally disabled people, Jews, black people, oompa loompas or whoever the perceived slight might have been aimed at) has resulted in Mr. Righteous PC Man looking like a nasty piece of work.

Political correctness should be binned just like religious fanatacism. Even thought people may think they mean well, at the end of the day they usually just end up coming out the worse for it.

chamlis

Are you offended because it really bothers you?
Or are you just offended because you feel you should be offended because of your bird?
You seem to be confused about alot of things, man. Decide.

You know the line, I know the line, we all know the line and I guarantee they know the line. If they were ever in a situation where they were in delicate company I doubt very much the humour would stay constant. It's all relative.

LegacyUser

Hey, Yeah I'm offended, and it's not just because my gf is offended. She kinda just opened my eyes to this kind of stuff and I'm now of the opinion that even though it may be in jest it's offensive and I don't like it. I don't like that they make jokes at the expense of people worse off than them.

Chamlis, you're right I am confused. I know myself now what I find unacceptable but I think it's mostly my friends reaction now that I'm unsure about. It's kind of like what Laslo said, I don't want to become a "PC-warrior". I know if I go at my friends and ask them to stop, at some point I'll be watching Family Guy or South Park and they'll jump down my throat for laughing at something non-PC.

Thanks for the replies anyway. I got what I needed from posting here. Being totally PC is an improbable task. I'm not sure if anyone could ever be completely non-PC so therefore anyone that tries to be is a hypocrite. The best I can do is try to be more understanding of other people and to let my friends know that I'm not comfortable with that kind of talk and hope that they'll accept it and not have a go at me whenever I say anything remotely non-PC.

Again, thanks.

The Hill Billy

OP - This whole thing about "political correctness" is clouding the issue. Political correctness IMHO is a pile of sh1te, but that's another story.

When I was a nipper - I hadn't a clue what PC was, but I knew that it was wrong to take the mickey out of, or be rude to, people who were not the same as me. That includes blacks, asians, handicapped, even gingers. :rolleyes:

PC/non-PC has nothing to do with how your mates are behaving.
Let's face it - Your mates' comments & attitudes are rude & childish.
They don't need to be taught what is PC or not-PC - They should grow up & learn some simple manners.

mountainyman

The one that annoys me most is 'gay' meaning lame. Not only around gay people but what of a friend is gay and won't tell us because we keep making jokes about 'fagg ts' and calling everything annoying gay?

Not that no gay people are annoying of course.

MM

craichoe

mountainyman wrote:

The one that annoys me most is 'gay' meaning lame. Not only around gay people but what of a friend is gay and won't tell us because we keep making jokes about 'fagg ts' and calling everything annoying gay?

Not that no gay people are annoying of course.

MM

Ah yes, But what about the people that use the term "gay" taking the piss out of the people that use the term "thats gay" for everything ?

I'll say whatever is on my mind unless i think it would offend me. I have no clue as to what would offend you.

Do unto others and you would have them do unto you i guess.

Tha Gopher

PC_confused wrote:

Hey everybody,
Not sure if this fits in with personal issues as it's a pretty broad topic but it's affecting me directly so I'm putting it here.
Okay, the background story. My group of friends and I are all well educated, decent, sometimes crazy people. We're all in our early-mid 20s and since college have spread about the country a bit. Most of us are in Cork and Galway. This will sound terrible but when it comes to being politcally correct my friends fail miserably. It's not like they ever mean anything they say or that there is anything malicious about it but they tend to not know where the line is a bit. Normally, I'd share in the joke and have a laugh with them but one thing in particular has been bugging me recently.
I guess it started with my girlfriend. One of her sisters has Down's Syndrome and since meeting her I hate that my friends make inappropriate jokes about people with disabilities. In particular, one of my friends throws about the words "retard" and "spastic" far too liberally. Anytime I'd say anything he'll come back with, "it's a medical term blah blah blah". I know the word is a medical term and all but in modern times, it's a lot more than that and I find it offensive. Actually, I find the way it is used offensive more than anything.
Now I have the problem of how to handle this. I really can't stand my friends making jokes like that (not that it's often or ever malicious, as I said, my friends are good people, they just don't know where the line is with some things) and don't know what to do. How can I justify asking them to stop making those jokes and then turn the other cheek at other offensive jokes that don't bother me. That'd be a bit hypocritical and my friends will pick up on that immediately.
So I guess I'm asking, where do you draw the line? How can I claim to be offended about jokes at the expense of disabled people yet laugh at gay or racial jokes. It's all very hypocritical and I'm confused.

Its because theyre Irish, its what we do. Honestly, what other country uses terms like "the poor kunt/bastard" as a genuine expression of sympathy

PC is gone mad and is slowly killing boards, you cant have a legit debate on AH/Politics/Humanities about the knackers without some faggots with an agenda shouting people down.

Wow, 2 abuse terms in one sentence, Take THAT


I dunno, i think sometimes people like to make a point infront of people they dont like. Like the other night, we`re talking about the rockets at Halloween with my mate and his American bird, i was drunk and says "ya should drive up the Blanch bypass Haloween night, its exactly like when they bombed Baghdad"

I was hammered Shes actually a nice bird from what Ive gathered thus far.

Laslo

PC_confused wrote:

Hey, Yeah I'm offended, and it's not just because my gf is offended. She kinda just opened my eyes to this kind of stuff and I'm now of the opinion that even though it may be in jest it's offensive and I don't like it. I don't like that they make jokes at the expense of people worse off than them.

Look, if your friends are calling each other retards or are commenting on something unrelated by saying it's "retarded" then it's not a big deal. If they're actually targetting mentally disabled people and slagging them... well that's just immature and nasty. You need to differentiate between term of phrase/rhetoric and abusive language. This is something most 'politically correct' people seem to have a lot of trouble with and they're constantly on the defensive. From my experience, they tend to be very boring, annoying people with relatively few friends too.