Congratulations to the Gardai

ballooba

Maybe a bit premature, but well done to the Gardai for ending this situation without anyone getting seriously hurt.

Situation sounds similar to that encountered with John Carty in Longford a few years back.

From ireland.com:

Co Galway siege ends as man leaves house
By Luke Cassidy Last updated: 09-10-06, 21:19


A man who barricaded himself in a house in Gort, Co Galway for over 21 hours has been taken to hospital after being hit by at least one non-lethal round fired by gardai.

It is understood that the man left the house voluntarily at approximately 8.30pm, and as he did so, fired a number of shots. It is not yet clear whether he fired the weapons deliberately or accidentally.

Gardai at the scene then fired a number of non-lethal rounds, thought to be of the bean-bag type, designed to temporarily disable a person.

The man is not thought to be seriously injured, although that has yet to be confirmed. He has been taken to Galway University Hospital.

The man had two legally held-shotguns.

The tense stand-off had lasted since 11.30pm on Sunday. The man barricaded himself in his home on Crowe Street and fired several shots at garda cars, after gardai were called to the estate.

Earlier this evening the man finally agreed to make contact with a garda negotiator.

Around 50 gardai were drafted into the town throughout the day as gardai surrounded the house at the centre of the siege.

The garda Emergency Response Unit, Air Unit, dog teams and an ambulance crew were all called to the town. The man's wife and two children left the house on Crowe Street a short while after gardai arrived late on Sunday and a stand-off continued through the night.

Nearby roads in the estate were sealed off and around 100 neighbours were evacuated from the area and moved to a local hotel at around 5am.

Collie D

Yeah, it's not often I'd congratulate them but fair play for ending a dangerous situation without killng anybody

CLADA

Heard RTE news reporter say it looks like a satisfactory outcome depending on how serious his injuries are.
FFS are they ever happy, at the end of it all he's alive.

Jip

ballooba wrote:

Maybe a bit premature, but well done to the Gardai for ending this situation without anyone getting seriously hurt.

A bit premature alright, he's in critical condition at the moment after heing shot in the shoulder area.

Apparently he came out, took a few shots at the gardai, their non-lethal projectiles didn't work, possibly because they were too far from him, so he was shot once by an ERU member.

crybaby

sounds like they did their jobs regardless of whether he is in a critical condition but i suppose we'll have to wait for all of the details, but if someone comes out firing shots at Gardai they have every right to shoot him in my book

Jip

I agree, I'm saying it's premature saying noone is hurt, not premature congratulating the gardai.

Heinrich

crybaby wrote:

sounds like they did their jobs regardless of whether he is in a critical condition but i suppose we'll have to wait for all of the details, but if someone comes out firing shots at Gardai they have every right to shoot him in my book

Abbeylara anyone?

Will there be a tribunal for this one as well? The guy was shot. Maybe he was a nutter...

CLADA

So after 20 hrs and having fired a number of rounds the subject emerges from the house with a firearm and shoots at street lighting. You are the Garda on the ground and within his range, you challenge him and he refuses to drop the weapon, you use your less lethal option which for some reason doesn't disable him, he turns towards you.... The next option is?

Morpheus

I would almost guarantee that not one member of the garda was weapons free except for the sniper. nowhere has it mentioned that the garda in question as within his range and did it in self defence, it was an aimed shot taken by an ERU squad member under orders from his commanding officer. This sounds like said ERU member being told to aim to wound the suspect.


Point to note, the ERU are a police special forces unit. Standard training is military-esque and run under supervision from ARW (Army Ranger Wing, irish SAS for you heathens) and involves learning to take headshots.

Reason is because if you have a nutter with a gun in a room full of innocents, a body shot means he will either go down squeezing the trigger in pain,that he may not be killed and could pull the trigger on instinct spraying anywhere, whereas the headshot means he will crumple dead and wont have a brain left to tell his finger to pull the trigger, even on instinct.

Well done to the boys in blue (and dark blue). All the same high power .308 through the upper shest slash shoulder area, major ouch, not surprising that he's in critical condition.hopefully the gardai can back out of this situation as the nutter is in some state of "alive" and all they tried non lethal force when the could justifiably have killed him to protect garda members in his line of fire.

HelterSkelter

I don't really have a problem with the Guards shooting him if he was shooting at them, I would do the same. But what I want to know is why are they lying about the man's condition

http://www.newstalk.ie/news.aspx?id=30179

A 39 year old man involved in a standoff with Gardai in Galway yesterday is said to be in a critical condition in hospital. The man emerged from the house after 22 hours last night and fired a number of shots. He then recieved a gunshot wound to the chest after attempts to disable him with non lethal weapons failed and Gardai then discharged a live round. Gardai have said the man's condition is stable but sources at the hospital where he is being treated have indicated he is more gravely ill than was first revealed. The Garda Commissioner is to carry out an investigation into the shooting.

CLADA

Morph&#233 wrote: »

I would almost guarantee that not one member of the garda was weapons free except for the sniper.

Bit confused at that comment, can you explain?

oscarBravo

HelterSkelter wrote:

...what I want to know is why are they lying about the man's condition

There's a rule in this forum that you're not allowed to accuse someone of lying unless you know for a fact that they knew what they were saying to be untrue.

If you can produce evidence that the Gardaí knew he was critical at the time they said he was stable, please do so. Otherwise, please retract the accusation.

HelterSkelter

oscarBravo wrote:

There's a rule in this forum that you're not allowed to accuse someone of lying unless you know for a fact that they knew what they were saying to be untrue.

If you can produce evidence that the Gardaí knew he was critical at the time they said he was stable, please do so. Otherwise, please retract the accusation.

Ok, I'll retract the statement that they are lying and rephrase it. What I want to know is why the guards are disagreeing with trained medical professionals opinion on the man's condition

Jip

CLADA wrote:

Bit confused at that comment, can you explain?

I assume he means he was the only member that was allowed to use his weapon.

The gardai are not trained medical professionals. However, you can be seriously ill and stable at the sametime so you're really just debating semantics.

CLADA

Jip wrote:

I assume he means he was the only member that was allowed to use his weapon.

Thanks Jip, but why would an armed officer be at a scene with a firearm he is not allowed to use

oscarBravo

HelterSkelter wrote:

Ok, I'll retract the statement that they are lying and rephrase it. What I want to know is why the guards are disagreeing with trained medical professionals opinion on the man's condition

That's a little better, but I still feel you're being disingenuous in your phrasing. Did the Gardaí contradict the medical professionals, or vice versa? In other words, did the Gardaí say "he's in a stable condition", and then the hospital said, "actually, he's critical"? Or did the hospital say "he's critical" and then the Gardaí say "no he's not, he's stable"?

It's an important distinction.

Morpheus

They're assesment may be the initial one that may have been taken straight after he'd been shot.

Look, point-three-oh-eight from a sniper rifle passes through your upper chest / shoulder region, I run over and after a few minutes of crash first aid if your now breathing on your own and your heart is beating on its own and your not bleeding to death, then thats probably as close to stable as you can get.

His condition may have deteriorated since and the garda who gave the statement mightn't have known. Either way, he must be a big strong bloke if he's survived that particular shot.

Also makes me think of a reason or two why they may have chosen to do the take down with .308 rifle, i guess theres very little chance that the big round would richocette around him once it hit bone (shoulder blades, colar bone, thats quite a bony area to be shot in, no vital organs, smaller rounds will break up on impact with bone and will potentially bounce around causing internal damage) and also if your hit with something so big you WILL go down because theres an exit wound the size of your fist in your shoulder/back.

mickoneill30

HelterSkelter wrote:

Ok, I'll retract the statement that they are lying and rephrase it. What I want to know is why the guards are disagreeing with trained medical professionals opinion on the man's condition

Dead right. If I as a non medical professional make some kind of rough diagnosis that is later found to be incorrect by a doctor you can accuse me of lying. FFS, does everything have to be a conspiracy. If the Gardais initial assessment of the guys health isn't 100% accurate they must be lying.

HelterSkelter

They interviewed a Guard on newstalk this morning (think it was the Comissioner) and he directly contradicted what the medial people said. He acknowledged that the hospital said he was in a critical condition but that was not the opinion of the Guards.

HelterSkelter

HelterSkelter wrote:

Ok, I'll retract the statement that they are lying and rephrase it. What I want to know is why the guards are disagreeing with trained medical professionals opinion on the man's condition

Are you aware that you can be both critical and stable?In other words you can be critically ill but your position is stable,it could go either way but you can be accurately described as either.
But hey lets nit pick...
Today fm's news described the man as critical but stable.

As for the incident..what does one expect the Gardaí to do when faced with a man leaving a house shooting a gun? What should they do? Throw rose petals at his feet or something untill a Guard is shot ? :rolleyes:

mickoneill30

I heard the same interview (I think, around 7:50am). I thought he said he wasn't aware of the two conflicting reports. Which makes sense. i.e I'm sure a Guard isn't going to contradict a doctor about somebodys condition.

Morpheus

CLADA wrote:

Thanks Jip, but why would an armed officer be at a scene with a firearm he is not allowed to use

Ok, when the ERU is called in, they usually take control, they are the gardai's elite unit, they dont do normal policing, they do the really dangerous stuff, they train with the army rangers (irish army special forces) just for this situation.

Once they arrive they were probably placed in control of any shooting that would take place.

They probably have a contigency plan, surround the house, armed with non lethal shotguns alongside lethal assault rifles.

Have a sniper or two over looking the house.

They were probably told, if he exits with a gun, shoot him with non lethal weapons, if this doesnt work the sniper is instructed, try to wound him, he is after all not armed with an automatic gun, he holds a licenced shotgun, it probably has 2 barrels = 2 shots at most.

All of the ERU squad would be under control via radio of a commanding officer (squad leader). they would hear a command to let them know they were weapons free (means they can shoot at will) if anything happened that required it.

ERU are probably around the house, he exits, he doesnt drop the gun, they shoot him with non lethals, he doesnt go down, sniper gets word to take him down with a wound, believe me these guys are very very well trained, if the sniper needed to kill him, he would be very dead and not stable right now.

From my knowledge of things military and how fire orders work, thats how i believe it wouldve worked.

Armed detectives would have been there should he get through the ERU (not unless he was the hulk would THAT happen). They would have been told to stay out of sight and not to open fire unless instructed to.

HelterSkelter

On the interveiw on Newstalk this morning Superintendent Kevin Donohoe said

From our point of view we're not medical people but what I can tell you from what I understand this morning that he's in a stable but improving condition, that's as much as I can say to you at the moment, that it isn't a life threatening position that he's in

The news report states

Gardai have said the man's condition is stable but sources at the hospital where he is being treated have indicated he is more gravely ill than was first revealed.

Sounds like a contradiction of the medical sources to me. And the interview took place after the news report was published.

HelterSkelter

Tristrame wrote:

As for the incident..what does one expect the Gardaí to do when faced with a man leaving a house shooting a gun? What should they do? Throw rose petals at his feet or something untill a Guard is shot ? :rolleyes:

As I already stated I have no problem with them shooting him if the situation is as described. I would do the same. But why disagree with the hospitals accessment of the man's condition ???

mickoneill30

HelterSkelter wrote:

Sounds like a contradiction of the medical sources to me. And the interview took place after the news report was published.

Maybe the comissioner wasn't listening to the news. I'd imagine he'd be busy thismorning.

HelterSkelter

mickoneill30 wrote:

Maybe the comissioner wasn't listening to the news. I'd imagine he'd be busy thismorning.

I was wrong, it wasn't the Comissioner being interviewed, it was Superintendent Kevin Donohoe of the Garda Press Office. It's his job to listen to the news!!

HelterSkelter

HelterSkelter wrote:

On the interveiw on Newstalk this morning Superintendent Kevin Donohoe said

The news report states Gardai have said the man's condition is stable but sources at the hospital where he is being treated have indicated he is more gravely ill than was first revealed.


Sounds like a contradiction of the medical sources to me. And the interview took place after the news report was published.

sounds to me like you're nit picking... without full information - why are you doing this?
After all I've just used the nice bold html tags to highlight a different part of what you've quoted to suggest a completely different interpretation...
I mean you are creating a hoo ha based on a paragraph on the news talk site that doesnt even detail what it means by " than was first revealed"
It is accurate to say someone isnt dying when their condition is stable even if they are critical.

While I'm at it heres another report with the critical but stable tag on his condition.
Stable means you're not dying by the way.

HelterSkelter

Tristrame wrote:

sounds to me like you're nit picking... without full information - why are you doing this?
After all I've just used the nice bold html tags to highlight a different part of what you've quoted to suggest a completely different interpretation...
I mean you are creating a hoo ha based on a paragraph on the news talk site that doesnt even detail what it means by " than was first revealed"
It is accurate to say someone isnt dying when their condition is stable even if they are critical.

While I'm at it heres another report with the critical but stable tag on his condition.
Stable means you're not dying by the way.

The reports from the hospital sources which stated that the man was "more gravely ill than first revealed" were broadcast at least 30 minutes before Donohoe was interviewed in which he stated that "it isn't a life threatening position that he's in".

I am not nit picking. There is a clear contradiction here between the garda press office and the hospital sources. This stood out like a sore thumb when I heard it this morning.

punchdrunk

the guard interviewed was probably only disclosing what he had officially been told, he's hardly going to quote a media source that may well be talking crap,they have to be very carefull what they say in interviews so even if he'd gotten word from a source in the hospital saying the guy was in a bad way he's not going to mention that unless the doctor in charge gives him the info in person

HelterSkelter

punchdrunk wrote:

the guard interviewed was probably only disclosing what he had officially been told, he's hardly going to quote a media source that may well be talking crap,they have to be very carefull what they say in interviews so even if he'd gotten word from a source in the hospital saying the guy was in a bad way he's not going to mention that unless the doctor in charge gives him the info in person

Well on lunchtime news everyone is now agreeing on the man's condition so that's put that issue to bed!

Manic Moran

Morph&#233 wrote: »

ERU are probably around the house, he exits, he doesnt drop the gun, they shoot him with non lethals, he doesnt go down, sniper gets word to take him down with a wound, believe me these guys are very very well trained, if the sniper needed to kill him, he would be very dead and not stable right now.

Chap might have moved suddenly at the last moment, maybe he was the agitated sort that was moving his head around too much and the sniper went for an upper torso shot. Shoot to wound is the exception more than the rule for US SWAT teams: A firearm is considered lethal force. If you're at the stage that you need to use it, you're trying to kill him in most cases. May or may not be the case here, this is all conjecture.

From my knowledge of things military and how fire orders work, thats how i believe it wouldve worked.

My recollection of Irish ROEs is hazy, but in the UK/US, no ROE on the use of firearms is so restrictive that the cop/troop may never, ever fire without permission from a superior. The basic requirement is 'defense of your life or that of a colleague or other third party from imminent threat.' You are likely correct, however, that ERU would have been the only people in a position to take the shot in the first place.

NTM