Westies barking ferociously when on the lead but Saints off the Lead

Calibos

I've got two 3yo westie brothers from the same litter. They get on like a house on fire. They don't bark at anyone at the hall door and jump all over anyone who comes inside in excitement wanting to kiss them.

On walks off the lead in a dog walkers field 50% of the time they bark a little bit when they meet some dogs but not vicious barks. The other 50% they don't even bark and go over waggging from the off. The other dogs usually stop dead or lie down. My lads have a sniff, the other dog gets up has a sniff and we happily go our separate ways. There has never been a fight. Another westie once had a go out of the blue at one of mine but my lad did not react and just kind of looked at me as if to say, "what the hell did yer man do that for??"

On the lead is a different matter. My two lads go ape**** when they see another dog and are straining on the lead barking ferociously. Now generally I am very embarressed and can see the other dog owner is wary(sp?) so pull my lads away and around the other dog. Sometimes other dog owners moreso other westie owners who know what westies can be like on the lead don't pull their dogs away or look scared and move towards us. Without fail when my lads get within a metre they stop pulling and barking and slowly go over for a sniff, tails wagging and then we all go happily on our way. Only once was anyone snappy in this scenario and it was the aforementioned other westie.

So while they can sound ferocious on the lead they have never gone for anyone or another dog when they got close.

Heres the main problem though. They go ape**** at the sittingroom window when they see kids or cats on the road and if there happen to be kids or cats on the road when we leave the house on the lead to get into the car they also go ape****.

How do I stop this without giving them a smack. (Something we have never nor want to do) Although they are restrained when going to the car it is very embarressing and has scared the children. I know if I brought the kids into the house with the dogs, the dogs would lick them to death. I know once the dogs got close to the kid even outside they would stop and start wagging their tails but obvously you can't convince a kid that is terified by my dogs barking ferociously that once they sniff him they will smother him with kisses rather than bites.

I am a responsible owner with regard to keeping the dogs on a lead when I am supposed to. Even in a big empty field if I see walkers with kids I will put the dogs back on the lead even though it has the paradoxical effect of making me seem less in control of the dogs rather then more. (Like I said off the lead in the field they sometimes bark but not ferociously and obey my commands to come back to me away from the other walkers)

I am responsible in that they are not allowed roam the streets and only leave the house on the lead. They get walked twice a day.

I fear though that I have not been responsible in actually putting some manners on them with regard to how they greet other people/dogs on or off the lead.

Any suggestions?

nc6000

I've a Westie that also acts up when he's on the lead and is almost always fine when he is off it. I think he does it because he's trying to appear all tough to other dogs but knows that he can't do anything because I will hold him back. It's as if he's saying "If it wasn't for this guy holding my lead, you'd be in for it pal!" when he meets other dogs. Barking through the window is similar, he knows that he can't get at whatever he is barking at and they also can't get to him because he's behind the window.

Does that make sense?

TerrorFirmer

I have 2 3yr old westies as well, and while I wouldn't go as far as to say they are saints off the lead, they are much better behaved. The female especially loves barking, all it would take is a rustle of paper at 2am in the morning to set her off.

It can be a bit intimidating for other people because many do automatically and unfortunately incorrectly - in my case at least - associate a fiercely barking dog with agressiveness. My two, should they get anywhere near you, are extremely frisky and playful, but its just they have a tendancy to bark at anything and everything they can't immediately run over to.

It'd be great to have them off the lead all the time but we just don't trust them enough to let them be off the leads all of the time...

SuzyS1972

What do they like ?
If it's chicken or sausages then bring some out in your pocket or a little bag - any time you see dogs approaching get their attention asap with the food - treat them as the other dogs are coming / walking by and hopefully the distraction will not only dispel the barking but they may well learn to associate oncoming dogs with nice things.
Timing is of the essence .
Completely harmless to the dog and well worth a try - it does work after a little while.

FranknFurter

SuzyS1972 wrote:

What do they like ?
If it's chicken or sausages....

Friend of mine last year did it that way, it worked very well after a while *BUT*... I remember him remarking he wished he had used regular doggy-treats instead of chicken as now every single time he cooks chicken for *himself* the dogs immediately think they should be allowed some LOL

B

SuzyS1972

Sure my dogs think everything is for them

I mean use something delicious and rewarding for the 1st while - you can always substitute it for something cheap and cheerful after a day or 2.
I def get better results with chopped up hot dogs or chicken than the specially made dogs treats.
It's all in the smell !

the_syco

Have a westie. She goes mental at well... anything that moves, tbh, and some things that don't. Cats, small kids, a black jumper left on the wall:D

I just tell her to "shut up", sternly. Or if that fails, I say "shut the **** up" very sternly.

Lots of attention will teach them that they'll get attention if they're noisey, which could be a bad habit.

SuzyS1972

I understand what you are saying - i.e bad behaviour followed by lots of attention encourages it - yes in certain circumstances.


With this method it's not giving them attention per se - it is using a distraction to deter them from barking - everytime they see another dog they get a treat- this will lead to the association that other dogs equal something good.
You call their name - treat them and walk on before all the palava starts- you don't make a fuss etc.
Dogs almost certainly use association when behaving.
i.e my dog knows if she jumps at agility when she's finished she gets a reward.


As for jumping and going mental - you are letting her ?
If you are going to allow your dog to create chaos in your house then you are at fault.
And according to a behaviour book I am reading - in the section on barking it advises people not to shout at their dogs as the dogs think you are joining in with their little bark-a-thon - not sure how factual that it but it kind of makes sense to me !

the_syco

SuzyS1972 wrote:

And according to a behaviour book I am reading - in the section on barking it advises people not to shout at their dogs as the dogs think you are joining in with their little bark-a-thon - not sure how factual that it but it kind of makes sense to me !

"bark-a-thon". I like it. Well, I say it once, and she shuts up. Usually I go to see what she's barking at, as sometimes (if its cat, or a jumper), I can get rid of the problem. Sometimes, tho, all I'd say she see's are shadows.

Also, I suppose we let her go mental to an extent, as we wouldn't want her to stay quite if someone was out back.

SuzyS1972

mmmmm
I feel bad tonight as I told my oldest terrier off for barking like a mad un out the back - I couldn't see a thing but then heard rustling - next door fella was down the back of the garden so she was right to bark - hard to call sometimes isn't it when there's nothing obvious.

Calibos

nc6000 wrote:

I've a Westie that also acts up when he's on the lead and is almost always fine when he is off it. I think he does it because he's trying to appear all tough to other dogs but knows that he can't do anything because I will hold him back. It's as if he's saying "If it wasn't for this guy holding my lead, you'd be in for it pal!" when he meets other dogs. Barking through the window is similar, he knows that he can't get at whatever he is barking at and they also can't get to him because he's behind the window.

Does that make sense?

Absolute sense. I've explained it exactly that way to people.:D

iguana

SuzyS1972 wrote:

What do they like ?
If it's chicken or sausages then bring some out in your pocket or a little bag - any time you see dogs approaching get their attention asap with the food - treat them as the other dogs are coming / walking by and hopefully the distraction will not only dispel the barking but they may well learn to associate oncoming dogs with nice things.
Timing is of the essence .
Completely harmless to the dog and well worth a try - it does work after a little while.

But isn't this in itself a problem? A dog is hardly trained if you have to bribe it with treats to get it to do as you say. What happens the day you really need them to calm down but you are out of treats?

I see people with dogs all the time who have to give the dog a treat after each instruction. Sit - a treat. Heel - a treat. Walk - a treat. Fetch - a treat.

You always see on training programmes the exact same treat advice and the vo casually mentions that eventually the dog will not need a treat for each instruction. But they never, ever show you how to wean them off constant treats.

My boys get treats when they have been especially good, and when we come home for our walks. I wouldn't give my child a treat every time they follow a simple instruction, that would be bad parenting. I certainly wouldn't do it for my dogs.

I would suggest just walking the dog in the other direction when they start to bark at another dog. If you are on your way to the park they will taking longer to get to their favourite destination and they will eventually learn to alter their behaviour. When my boys act up on their lead we either come to a stop until they sit for ten seconds or we turn 180 degrees. They now know that the fastest way to get to the park is to walk at my pace and not to pull or squabble.