Just out of curiosity

Nevyn

This topic came up in the parenting forum and I was wondering what the views posters of this forum would be.

where or not a child is christianed ( either catholic/C of I ) is becoming issue when trying to get a placement in primary school esp when out of the 3,150 National Schools (2003/4) 93% are under Catholic patronage, 6% Protestant (Anglican, Presbyterian and Methodist), 2 are Muslim and 1 Jewish. Only 1.2% are multidenominational.

The patronage allows for the patron to set the school enrollment policy and parents are facing situations were they are being told there is no place at the school for thier child, that they were bumped down to the end of the list as they are not christened.

Dades

The last one for me.
The two main reasons being family and school. I don't see anything wrong with a splash and dash followed by a knees up if it means my kid can go to the same school I did. Education begins at home...

I've been following that thread in complete shock - I can't believe things are that bad here. Honestly. It's appalling.
No, I don't think I'd let them be christened. I know everyone doesn't have time nor means to make a stand against these things, but I don't think going along with it will ever solve this problem. And it is a problem.
I know I'm not in this situation at all but I think I would try very hard to find some alternative to it. Somehow.

robindch

I agree with The Atheist -- education in a good mildly religious school is more likely to produce better results than a bad education in a non-religious one. Though I believe that most of the non-religious schools in the country are pretty good. And I spent six years in a monastery school myself and look at how my good christian ̉εθος developed...

BTW, does anybody know anybody who's changed religion to bump their kids up the queue? A few friends of my brother have, while a good ex-catholic friend of mine changed hats when nobody was looking, and got a 50% grant from the CofI to attend a CofI boarding school

Zillah

robindch wrote:

A few friends of my brother have, while a good ex-catholic friend of mine changed hats when nobody was looking, and got a 50% grant from the CofI to attend a CofI boarding school

Haha. Brilliant.

Asiaprod

robindch wrote:

I agree with The Atheist -- education in a good mildly religious school is more likely to produce better results than a bad education in a non-religious one.

I would go along with this too if there was no alternate. Just have to work extra hard with my kid(s) to undo any fairy stories learned in religiouse classes.

Beruthiel

Yes, I did.
I was wrecked for months after having my daughter, I didn't give much of a toss about anything during that time and when her father suggested it I basically said, ya, whatever you want to organise, I'm not getting involved. (Other than turning up on the day).
She also went through the communion and confirmation, that was on her request though as she basically didn't want to be the only one in the class not doing it. Those are the only times she went to a church though and she never got into the religion as a result.

Nevyn

So you would be willing to have your children listed as catholic even when they are not and essentialy pad out the numbers ?

Dades

Thaedydal wrote:

So you would be willing to have your children listed as catholic even when they are not and essentialy pad out the numbers ?

They'll only be listed in school and individual church stats.
The stats that count come from the census, which you fill out yourself.

IFX

The question is poorly put.
You can only select one answer and yet not all of the options are mutually exclusive. For example, I would get my children baptised but it would be for several reasons not just one of the 5. and there's no overriding reasons, I have several reasons of equal priority.
It's unfortunate to see an illogical put question on a forum where most people claim they are very logical.

Beruthiel

Thaedydal wrote:

So you would be willing to have your children listed as catholic even when they are not and essentialy pad out the numbers ?

On the last census she was marked down as atheist, we all were.

Asiaprod

IFX wrote:

The question is poorly put.

No, it just does not cover every eventuality, there is not enough space to do that.

For example, for me I would get my children baptised but it would be for several reasons not just one of the 5. and there's no overriding reasons, I have several reasons of equal priority.

Can you elaborate, that way we could see how the poll was lacking.

It's unfortunate to see an illogical put question on a forum where most people claim they are very logical.

I disagree with both assumptions. There might have been an off day where one may have claimed to be logical, but most!

Nevyn

IFX wrote:

The question is poorly put.
You can only select one answer and yet not all of the options are mutually exclusive. For example, I would get my children baptised but it would be for several reasons not just one of the 5. and there's no overriding reasons, I have several reasons of equal priority.

Doh I forgot the atari jaguar option, but I rarely post polls.
If you think there is something that you can add to it ask one of the forum mods to edit it.

IFX wrote:

It's unfortunate to see an illogical put question on a forum where most people claim they are very logical.

Pff I have never claimed to be logical and I am not a Agatheist (Agnostic/Atheist) but a pagan.

The dept of Education works thier own numbers from the schools and not off the cenus.

IFX

Sorry Thaegyal, my post was a bit caustic.
I apologise for that. It is an interesting idea and who cares if the question isn't pin point logical, I think I am in the minority complaining about it anyway.
Fair play, keep posting and apologies again.

aidan24326

It's a tricky one. I would not want my kids (when I have any!) christened or taught catholic dogma. But I didn't realise that not having them christened can block them from getting into certain schools. That is very wrong and something I would make a major issue of if and when it ever happens to me. Good old Ireland, still living in the fcuking dark ages despite all notions of ourselves as a modernised country.

Tar.Aldarion

I don't know. I would not, if it is at all possible, have them christened. Guess I should just get rich and send them to some Alatrist fantasy school that I dream of.

Tim Robbins

bluewolf wrote:

I've been following that thread in complete shock - I can't believe things are that bad here. Honestly. It's appalling.
No, I don't think I'd let them be christened. I know everyone doesn't have time nor means to make a stand against these things, but I don't think going along with it will ever solve this problem. And it is a problem.
I know I'm not in this situation at all but I think I would try very hard to find some alternative to it. Somehow.

What stand are you making if you don't?
What do you mean solve the problem?
What problem?
I doubt anybody can even remember the Christening so how could it even be a problem?
Most atheists, were baptised or given some religion to grow up with and then come to their own conclusion.
In fact, IMO you can't really be a true atheists unless you have seriously considerd theism seriously in some respects and the only way to do that is to engage and hear the opinions of the theists and then make up your own opinion.
Furthemore, atheism in IMO is a complicated philosophy to get your head around. It involves not just a scientific understanding, but a philosophical one and some appreciation of history.
I don't expect any of my kids to get their heads around it until they are older - until then I can't see with what is wrong in participating in some sort of family friendy enviroment, with some sort of moral framework even if a lot it of it is pure mythology or exaggerated fruiteness. Put it this way, it's better than gazing at the Play Station.

Basically:
Liberal Christianity is a good philosophy for kids, atheism is a rational conclusion for many adults.
That's my 2 cent anyway.
Peace be with you.

Tim Robbins

Tim Robbins wrote:

What stand are you making if you don't?
What do you mean solve the problem?
What problem?

The problems of kids not being able to go to school for an additional 1-2 years thanks to religious discrimination.

I doubt anybody can even remember the Christening so how could it even be a problem?

What I think I was trying to say (I'm ill and tired, bear with me) in the last post was that if people go along with the religious discriminating in terms of school enrolment, it's not going to stop. So giving into it and baptising your child just to get them into school etc is kinda sending the message it's ok to do this, whereas maybe other action could be taken e.g. writing to TDs or something, I don't know.

Most atheists, were baptised or given some religion to grow up with and then come to their own conclusion.
In fact, IMO you can't really be a true atheists unless you have seriously considerd theism seriously in some respects and the only way to do that is to engage and hear the opinions of the theists and then make up your own opinion.
Furthemore, atheism in IMO is a complicated philosophy to get your head around. It involves not just a scientific understanding, but a philosophical one and some appreciation of history.
I don't expect any of my kids to get their heads around it until they are older - until then I can't see with what is wrong in participating in some sort of family friendy enviroment, with some sort of moral framework even if a lot it of it is pure mythology or exaggerated fruiteness. Put it this way, it's better than gazing at the Play Station.

Basically:
Liberal Christianity is a good philosophy for kids, atheism is a rational conclusion for many adults.
That's my 2 cent anyway.
Peace be with you.

I didn't mean this to be atheism vs christianity, I'm not a member (as such) of either. And I don't think christianity is the only good philosophy for kids!! There are other ways of teaching morals than "the man in the sky will punish you if you don't"... not that that's solely what it's about, but there are better alternatives...
In any case I'm painfully aware here that I have no children so this is not speaking from experience

Asiaprod

bluewolf wrote:

In any case I'm painfully aware here that I have no children so this is not speaking from experience

That strikes me as a very important point. It is easy to talk about kids and their education when one does not yet have them. When you have them, its a different matter. Time is not a luxury one has with kids and parents may just have to compromise in order to secure the best available outcome. As a parent, what is more important, making a stand or securing that education? I will go with the education.

Nature Boy

But if nobody makes a stand how can anything change? If a child was refused entry to a school because it was black or foreign then there would be uproar. I can't imagine the same would be true of athiests (I'm not speaking from experience by the way).

If a child can't get into a school because it wasn't christned then that's descrimination and I don't think I'd want my children (which i don't have yet) to go to a school that descriminates.

Schuhart

Nature Boy wrote:

If a child can't get into a school because it wasn't christned then that's descrimination and I don't think I'd want my children (which i don't have yet) to go to a school that descriminates.

The issue is that the school system, thus far, has been denominational. The idea was the State supports the provision of education, rather than provides it. In practice, the schools have been built largely with State funds and running costs are largely met out of public expenditure. But its on the basis of the State accepting that a school with a particular religous ethos can expect to be funded. Hence, its hard to depict a school with a particular ethos refusing entry to people of another faith as discrimination. The problem is simply the legacy of the fact that most Irish people have a Catholic background and, hence, so are most of the schools.

Pragmatically, Catholic schools do tend to accept enrollments from persons of other denominations. I know our local national school does, and has only put down a general marker that it still has a Catholic ethos and would put a limit on non-Catholic enrollments if it looked to be endangering that ethos. In the short term, that solves the immediate problem. But where this is all heading is hard to predict. I don't think there's any immediate prospect of the Churches signing over their schools to the State.

Sangre

If I'm staying in Ireland for the foreseeable future I will, if not probably not. Went to a Holy Ghost school, had an awesome time with the lads. I doubt school's ethos affects most children's beliefs past the age of 13

Also, all the good rugby schools are religious

Asiaprod

Asiaprod wrote:

That strikes me as a very important point. It is easy to talk about kids and their education when one does not yet have them. When you have them, its a different matter. Time is not a luxury one has with kids and parents may just have to compromise in order to secure the best available outcome. As a parent, what is more important, making a stand or securing that education? I will go with the education.

That's precisely why I earlier said I was aware people couldn't all go around making stands about it.

Funsterdelux

My primary school there was often the odd Church of Ireland student, it was a Catholic run school, although that was in the back of beyond, so theyed probably welcome satan himself just to make up the numbers.

Asiaprod

bluewolf wrote:

That's precisely why I earlier said I was aware people couldn't all go around making stands about it.

I know, thats why I repeated. I thought it was a very good point.

Asiaprod

Asiaprod wrote:

I know, thats why I repeated. I thought it was a very good point.

Oh ok I thought you were having a go at me

Asiaprod

bluewolf wrote:

Oh ok I thought you were having a go at me

Am I that brave?

Tar.Aldarion

You, a knight, I should hope so.

As a king and a husband, I should hope not.

Richard W

The Atheist wrote:

The last one for me.
The two main reasons being family and school. I don't see anything wrong with a splash and dash followed by a knees up if it means my kid can go to the same school I did. Education begins at home...

I agree with this. I'd definately do it if it meant my kid could go to a good school. It's just water. Also it teaches them that sometimes... life splashes you in the face.
yeah

Asiaprod

Asiaprod wrote:

Am I that brave?

lol I'm flattered... I think

sonic juice

So the school doesn't allow children that are not christned,that is stupid because I bet most of the children going to the school don't believe in any of the crap that christians advocate,their parents just force it upon them,and the children don't think about it probably find it funny...

IT Loser

robindch wrote:

BTW, does anybody know anybody who's changed religion to bump their kids up the queue? A few friends of my brother have, while a good ex-catholic friend of mine changed hats when nobody was looking, and got a 50% grant from the CofI to attend a CofI boarding school

God is always watching...hence the expression "As Christ Is My Witness"

Always Rome, Never The Dome.

RD/ID

*Sigh* We are still such a backward country. If a school can select a child based on their opinions on the origin and nature of the universe (aka their religion) then under no circumstance would I permit my tax euros be transfered to the school( If i had a choice). It seems completely illegal and in conflict with our human rights. It is bad enough we let the state fund the promotion of a particular religion but when that extends to discriminating against young children I can not take it.

stevejazzx

My son is 4. His Mum is Russian Orthodox. Nowadays in the real world we are actually both non- theists/atheists. Our son is not christened. We thought it would be a good idea to let grow up and assign to himself over time his own beliefs. We understood that the 'drop of water' scenario was harmless in a sense but I am forcibly against doing stuff just for the sake of society. I think it is cowardice tbh particulary if it just affords a more comfortable progression into an educational facility. The act itself has great merit to the priest who carries it out and I just can't see how one can justify such dishonesty between themselves and any institution, even the church. Where does something like that end? Do we merely just sell our own beliefs when we need something in return?
He is due to go to start school next september. Do I have to get him chrsitened? Will I be asked for cert? Sigh, it's like living in the 20's.

robindch

> Do we merely just sell our own beliefs when we need something in return?

Well, that's what religious people are required to do -- they're told that they must believe something in return for some reward or other. In the recently-evolved "protestant" variations of christianity, this involves convincing yourself to believe the sentence "Jesus saves", or some variation of it, in return for which belief, you won't die when you die. If you know what I mean.

btw, I'm in the same boat as you -- my kid's mum was born Russian Orthodox, and she's as practiced an atheist as myself. Neither of us have any intention of going through some primitive water ceremony out in Harold's Cross or anywhere else, in order to keep some religious guy in a job, or in return for the payment for which, he may or may not bump Dasha a few places up the queue, past the detestable narod who might be less willing to sell their principles.

<grunt>!

RD/ID

As regards the (state) schools right to discriminate, could someone clarify - Has this happened to them or someone they know? I mean I just can't believe it is allowed, as the vast majority of schools in the country are religious (well all of them).:mad: Time for a revolution!

RD/ID

What pisses me off so much about this government is how they unscrupulously used our money to pay for the sins of the church. Their reasoning that the church didn't have the where with all to foot the bill, being completely fabricated. One of the reasons for all the abuses that took place was due to the fact that the state allowed the church act on it's behalf in exchange for providing land or funding for the services. A perfect solution would have been to force the church to sell the schools and hospitals back to the state to pay for the damages.