Range Authorisations (and closures) in Wicklow

flight93

I heard the same about Hilltop. All members who had not been able to get renewals have now been issued with them. But no other club in the area has been "authorised". How did Pat do it??? Fair play to him, that is a result

Sparks

Welcome the inspectors in, answer all their questions, make a list of the changes they recommend, implement them quickly and get re-inspected and signed off on afterwards. That's how WTSC did it. I assume Hilltop was the same story.

sidneyreilly

Sparks wrote:

Welcome the inspectors in, answer all their questions, make a list of the changes they recommend, implement them quickly and get re-inspected and signed off on afterwards. That's how WTSC did it. I assume Hilltop was the same story.

You make it sound so simple:rolleyes: Pat had them out several times, each time there were changes to your "list". It has taken several months and a hell of a lot of money:(

Sparks

I make it sound that simple because it was that simple sidney. Two visits. Of course, airgun ranges are a bit simpler than indoor fullbore pistol ranges for this kind of thing, but that's how it is.

I suspect, if the list was changing so often, that Garda HQ doesn't have a defined safety standard yet. We heard earlier on here that they were using the MoD standard from the UK, but that was written for rifle ranges - and the UK have since stopped using the MoD standard to inspect civilian ranges, in fact the MoD in the UK no longer inspects ranges at all, and I understand the NRA and NSRA are approaching the Home Office to take that function over.

sidneyreilly

Aye. It would be a lot easier for air rifle and rightly so. The spec for indoor/outdoor smallbore/fullbore ranges seems to be evolving on precident ergo, there is no "spec" as such

rrpc

Sparks wrote:

Welcome the inspectors in, answer all their questions, make a list of the changes they recommend, implement them quickly and get re-inspected and signed off on afterwards. That's how WTSC did it. I assume Hilltop was the same story.

That's not how it happened in Rathdrum Sparks. Here's how that went.

1. Phonecall to chairman on a Suturday; "We're here to inspect the range". Chairman was in Waterford, I was in Gorey, another local member was in Lanzarote, nobody available to let them in.

2. Three weeks later (22nd August); "We'll be there in an hour". Chairman met them, welcomed them in, everything goes swimmingly "Very little to do lads, we'll get back to you with our report" (No detail given whatsoever).

3. Three weeks later (13th September); letter from Wicklow Garda Station; "You're to close forthwith on safety grounds". No grounds given, no report, no visit.

4. Four weeks later, still no visit, still no report, still no grounds, still no range :mad:

sidneyreilly

rrpc wrote:

Four weeks later, still no visit, still no report, still no grounds, still no range :mad:

Total disgrace RRPC, no other area of public service would they close you without giving a reason:mad:

Sparks

rrpc wrote:

That's not how it happened in Rathdrum Sparks. Here's how that went.

Absolutely disgraceful. Any response from the Department yet?

edit: Farmed off these posts into a new thread because this is a rather large but seperate issue...

FLAG

rrpc wrote:

That's not how it happened in Rathdrum Sparks. Here's how that went.

1. Phonecall to chairman on a Suturday; "We're here to inspect the range". Chairman was in Waterford, I was in Gorey, another local member was in Lanzarote, nobody available to let them in.

2. Three weeks later (22nd August); "We'll be there in an hour". Chairman met them, welcomed them in, everything goes swimmingly "Very little to do lads, we'll get back to you with our report" (No detail given whatsoever).

3. Three weeks later (13th September); letter from Wicklow Garda Station; "You're to close forthwith on safety grounds". No grounds given, no report, no visit.

4. Four weeks later, still no visit, still no report, still no grounds, still no range :mad:

Your closure was totally illegal, you invited the Gardai in for advice, advice given would only be that the range was safe to the current JSP standards, even if it was not up to the standard there is no legislation in existance to close you down, essentially your mistake was actually to stop shooting, how would they ahve actually prevented you if you decided to continue, they would need a warrant to come on your range uninvited, all persons using the range are lisece holders, how would they prvent lisence holders from exercising their rights, go back shooting and ignore them!

If you want sight of our legal opinion on the matter contact me on flagireland@eircom.net

rrpc

We are well aware of the legal shortcomings of their stance FLAG, and have written to the Super in Wicklow pointing them out.

We would be quite happy to implement any upgrades that would improve safety, the frustrating thing is that we have not been told what is required.

The new act will require safety standards to be met, so getting bolshie about it now would just be postponing the inevitable.

FLAG

rrpc wrote:

We are well aware of the legal shortcomings of their stance FLAG, and have written to the Super in Wicklow pointing them out.

We would be quite happy to implement any upgrades that would improve safety, the frustrating thing is that we have not been told what is required.

The new act will require safety standards to be met, so getting bolshie about it now would just be postponing the inevitable.

No one is recommending that you get bolshie, the fact is that you have been closed down by an unlawful act, the new legislation which has yet to be implemented by statute will not legitimise the trangression of the law that has been carried out by the Gardai in forcing you to close.

The significant differnence that will be in place when the new range regualtions will be enacted will be that they will be that they will be regulated by legislation, that is not the case presently.

While the ballistics section may have made observations about your range and safety, they are only that "observations", I understand that you have been shooting in your present location for more than 40 years, so it stands to reason that it is "safe" not up to JSP standards perhaps but they do not currently have the force of law.

You should not roll over on the basis of legislation that is not in effect because you are totally unaware of the form that the implementaion will take, for starters, the range inspector is most unlikley to be from the Gardai, he will be an independent appointee of the Minister, he will work to published standards and due notice will be provided for all recommendation with a time frame for them to be implemented.

It is of course your own choice to do with your range what you wish but when the current legisaltion is clearly in your favour you do no good for shooting sports by lying down and being walked on.

rrpc

We have no intention of rolling over and being walked on Declan. We were willing to go along with the range inspections on the basis that it in general it is a good thing to have some definite guidelines to follow and a process of approval in place in the absence of any such system for the past decades.

We have allowed a reasonable amount of time to pass after receiving the notice of closure and in the absence of anything concrete in terms of specific requirements to be met by us, we have put them on notice that we intend re-opening.

In other words, we have co-operated, they have not reciprocated and we intend to cease co-operation.

FLAG

rrpc wrote:

We have no intention of rolling over and being walked on Declan. We were willing to go along with the range inspections on the basis that it in general it is a good thing to have some definite guidelines to follow and a process of approval in place in the absence of any such system for the past decades.

We have allowed a reasonable amount of time to pass after receiving the notice of closure and in the absence of anything concrete in terms of specific requirements to be met by us, we have put them on notice that we intend re-opening.

In other words, we have co-operated, they have not reciprocated and we intend to cease co-operation.

Great to hear, the problem being communication or lack there of and people like me jumping to conclusions, I am delighted to hear that you are going to be back up and running, seems to me that there was a considerable gap in the competition calendar with your range off line....... the best of luck to you. If things hot up the offer of the benefit of our legal opinon is still open to you.

rrpc

FLAG wrote:

the offer of the benefit of our legal opinon is still open to you.

I wouldn't mind seeing it now, if that's ok Declan. It may be handy to have in advance of any heat developing. PM me if you are in a position to send me a copy.

FLAG

rrpc wrote:

I wouldn't mind seeing it now, if that's ok Declan. It may be handy to have in advance of any heat developing. PM me if you are in a position to send me a copy.

I will have a copy with me at the SSAI meeting in Abbeyleix for anyone wishing to review it.

Declan

rrpc

FLAG wrote:

I will have a copy with me at the SSAI meeting in Abbeyleix for anyone wishing to review it.

Should that not be copies? Every club will have representation at that meeting including us, and I'd imagine they'll all want a copy.

FLAG

rrpc wrote:

Should that not be copies? Every club will have representation at that meeting including us, and I'd imagine they'll all want a copy.

Our solicitor will not permit his legal opinion to be dispersed in this manner, the opinion was provided in the circumstances that pertain to a single clubs situation but essentially give legal opinion on the core issue and will be valuable to all clubs.

I have no issue discussing or showing the document to any person present at the meeting but I will not copy it for circulation.

Sparks

I have no issue discussing or showing the document to any person present at the meeting but I will not copy it for circulation.

Just as an aside note Declan, if you show that document to those at the meeting, whether or not you give them a copy to take away, you will have circulated it...

FLAG

Sparks wrote:

Just as an aside note Declan, if you show that document to those at the meeting, whether or not you give them a copy to take away, you will have circulated it...

So Mark, are you saying that I should not show it to interested parties! The advice can be discussed and people made aware of the content which will be one of the main focuses of the meeting. We can get pedantic about showing it circulating it, main point here is that anyone who is interested will be informed of the detail of the legal advice sought and obtained, I will not copy the document and circulate it, bottom line!

newby.204

I think the two of you shouldn turn this thread into another ego pissin match!!we can all see it startin already, maybe a mod will move the start of it to the thread for you two to snipe at each other

my two cents anyway!!!

FLAG

Newby, I don't know who you are but I do take exception to you inferring that I am "ego pissing" by responding to marks observations, I have no intention of turning the thread into anything other than an exchange of information, I think I am reasonably justified in responding as I did andyou have no right making the statement you did two cents or not, I feel an apology would not be unreasonable!

newby.204

Fair enough ill give you that i overstepped the boundry and i do apologise, but the chances are in the course of Mark and yourself exchanging information, you two will hijack the thread by constantly remarking at what you see are flaws in one anothers posts!! Correct me if im wrong but it has happened before, to such an extent that the two of you were given your own thread.

Im not sniping simply stating fact, and i have apologised for the personal insult on you like i said i overstepped the mark

FLAG

newby.204 wrote:

Fair enough ill give you that i overstepped the boundry and i do apologise, but the chances are in the course of Mark and yourself exchanging information, you two will hijack the thread by constantly remarking at what you see are flaws in one anothers posts!! Correct me if im wrong but it has happened before, to such an extent that the two of you were given your own thread.

Im not sniping simply stating fact, and i have apologised for the personal insult on you like i said i overstepped the mark

Apology accepted and appreciated, however I am not the only one drawn down the road of dueling with Mark! On occasions I have just not been able to let it go. Thats what probably has me still dealing with the Gardai and Justice since 1995, can't let it go till it is done...........

Sparks

Declan, if you want to go round demanding apologies, do it somewhere else please. You said you'd been told not to circulate that opinion by the soliciter; I pointed out that showing it to all and sundry at a public meeting was circulating it, even if they didn't get copies to take home, an observation which could only have benefited you personally by preventing you from misstepping into hot water with a soliciter. Newbie thought your response was the start of another pissing match and said so, and he had every right to say so, there's been enough precendent set in the past. He stepped over no line, but you most certainly did. Check the forum's charter, if you would, specifically this part:

If you have a problem with a post, use the "Report Bad Post" link (it's marked on the left side of each post with a symbol) to report it to the moderators. Do not take it on yourself to regulate the forum.

FLAG

Sparks wrote:

Declan, if you want to go round demanding apologies, do it somewhere else please. You said you'd been told not to circulate that opinion by the soliciter; I pointed out that showing it to all and sundry at a public meeting was circulating it, even if they didn't get copies to take home, an observation which could only have benefited you personally by preventing you from misstepping into hot water with a soliciter. Newbie thought your response was the start of another pissing match and said so, and he had every right to say so, there's been enough precendent set in the past. He stepped over no line, but you most certainly did. Check the forum's charter, if you would, specifically this part:

Mark you are starting trouble again, you already made your point about your interpretation of what circulations is and now you are continuing to harp on about it, this is my last post on the thread in case I am in danger of overstepping the Mark again!

Sparks

Okay, end of scrap, or offending posts will be deleted. The points have been made, people can take them or leave them as they choose, but this issue is too important for this sort of thing to stifle the thread.

macnas

Deleted previous post in the interest of harmony but will show a copy to any interested parties upon request.

Sparks

An interesting development from the UK - JSP403 has been discarded for use by the Home Office. An NRA/NSRA inspection process has now been officially adopted for use in its place (well, not quite yet, this all happens this Monday, October 23). Here is the relevant Home Office circular.