Clutch/gear trouble

maidhc

Darragh29 wrote:

. Modern clutches now use a CSC (Concentric Slave Cylinder), which integrates the clutch release bearing and the clutch slave cylinder into a CSC which is located inside the bell housing of the gearbox, this CSC might be leaking out oil, keep an eye on your clutch fluid level. If its dropping, the fluid is leaking out somewhere.

Sounds like a very silly design and an expensive one to fix. Is it?

Darragh29

maidhc wrote:

Sounds like a very silly design and an expensive one to fix. Is it?

Well it makes something that was once easily accessible and easy to replace, quite inaccessible. To replace a Concentric Slave Cylinder, the gearbox has to be removed, its just the same as changing a clutch. These CSC's now cause clutch failure when they leak as the oil contaminates the linings on the clutch disc and causes clutch shudder and slip. A reputable garage will always replace a CSC when replacing a clutch. I was at a Valeo conference recently (Valeo are Original Equipment Manufacturers of clutches for most vehicle manufacturers, they make these components for the vehicle manufacturers), and they said that 90% of vehicle manufacturers will be moving to a CSC actuated clutch system in the next 10 years. The one thing about the CSC though is that they are substantially more expensive than the old clutch release bearings, a CSC for a Ford Mondeo can cost up to 170 Euro. This is on top of the two piece clutch kit which could cost anything up to 300 Euro... They give a ligher clutch pedal though, simplify the clutch actuation system and replace two components with one, lowering the manufacturing costs.

maidhc

Darragh29 wrote:

Well it makes something that was once easily accessible and easy to replace, quite inaccessible. To replace a Concentric Slave Cylinder, the gearbox has to be removed, its just the same as changing a clutch. These CSC's now cause clutch failure when they leak as the oil contaminates the linings on the clutch disc and causes clutch shudder and slip. A reputable garage will always replace a CSC when replacing a clutch. I was at a Valeo conference recently (Valeo are Original Equipment Manufacturers of clutches for most vehicle manufacturers, they make these components for the vehicle manufacturers), and they said that 90% of vehicle manufacturers will be moving to a CSC actuated clutch system in the next 10 years. The one thing about the CSC though is that they are substantially more expensive than the old clutch release bearings, a CSC for a Ford Mondeo can cost up to 170 Euro. This is on top of the two piece clutch kit which could cost anything up to 300 Euro... They give a ligher clutch pedal though, simplify the clutch actuation system and replace two components with one, lowering the manufacturing costs.

Sounds really clever. Now you have to replace the clutch when the seal goes in the slave cylinder! Yay!

(My 1979 Ford digger has a 13" clutch with no hydraulic assistance, light clutch pedals... pah...)

AMurphy

up for anything wrote:

I drive a Chrysler Voyager seven seater.

I have one of those, Automatic... last time a clutch failed, it took a whole new box, $2500.
Yours, Diesel or petrol?. 4/5/6 cyl?.

Anyway, when you were experiencing this problem, went to put it into reverse, did the gears grind?. or not a sound?.
Given reverse generally has no synchro, I'd expect a lot of grinding.
Given the forward gers have synchro clutches, you cannot get them to grind, unless you push hard.
When you started in 2dn gear, did you have your foot on the clutch or just simply started and it took off.
What happened thereafter, ie did the clutch behave "normally" or was it still very difficult to change gear or even get it out of gear.

If you have a hydraulic clutch, it could have been as simple as a bubble in the line. You might also have a leaking master or slave cyl, master I'd suspect. Keep an eye on the level in the clutch reservoir and/or look for oil stains on the floor/carpet under your foot.

I do not knwo whether this clutch has a sdt slave cyo or the concentric type mentioned here. very easy to find out, follow the oil line from the reservoir to the clutch and see where it ends, outside the box, or leads into it through a hole in the bell housing, or some fitting into the bellhousing.

up for anything

Darragh29 wrote:

Seriously though, if you have an air bubble in your clutch hydraulic line, it might be indicating an upcoming seal problem at the clutch cylinder at the pedal or the clutch slave cylinder at the bell housing. Modern clutches now use a CSC (Concentric Slave Cylinder), which integrates the clutch release bearing and the clutch slave cylinder into a CSC which is located inside the bell housing of the gearbox, this CSC might be leaking out oil, keep an eye on your clutch fluid level. If its dropping, the fluid is leaking out somewhere.

Thanks for that, Darragh. It's going in for a service next week so I'll print out this and give it to my mechanic to read. There is a leak somewhere in the car because where it sits on the drive it always leaves a bit of a mark although no one can see from where but there is a thingy on the right hand side of the engine in the back (haven't a clue what it's called) that has stains all over it like liquid has been blown from somewhere else. I'll draw his attention to it in case that's part of the problem although he should have noticed it for himself.

Hopefully, it's still much ado about nothing.

AMurphy

up for anything wrote:

Thanks for that, Darragh. It's going in for a service next week so I'll print out this and give it to my mechanic to read. There is a leak somewhere in the car because where it sits on the drive it always leaves a bit of a mark although no one can see from where but there is a thingy on the right hand side of the engine in the back (haven't a clue what it's called) that has stains all over it like liquid has been blown from somewhere else. I'll draw his attention to it in case that's part of the problem although he should have noticed it for himself.

Hopefully, it's still much ado about nothing.

Given the RHS of the vehicle is the pully end of the engine on those vehicles, I suspect the item you speak of is the Power Steering pump and may leak at he shaft seal, then the pulley spins the oil all over the place, keep a check on your PS fluid also.

A clutch slave cyl is midways in the engine, front, center or back I have no idea. Post a few photos and we'll identify them for you.

up for anything

AMurphy wrote:

Given the RHS of the vehicle is the pully end of the engine on those vehicles, I suspect the item you speak of is the Power Steering pump and may leak at he shaft seal, then the pulley spins the oil all over the place, keep a check on your PS fluid also.

A clutch slave cyl is midways in the engine, front, center or back I have no idea. Post a few photos and we'll identify them for you.

I can't post any photos... my hard disk is full to bursting and I can't download anything onto it. I have a new one sitting here with GB galore but I need to suss out how to change it and change the internet modem driver as it's a different version of Windows on it. I'll post some if I manage to connect it all up anyone time soon.

AMurphy

I'm sure some other area of this "boards.ie" has an expert on how to make an exact copy of your current HDD to an newer/faster/bigger HDD. Otherwise, I have heard of a utility called "ghost" that's free and makes exact replicas of your hdd... or at least I think that's it.... don't take my word for it. I'm much better with chutches and carburettors than computers.

Meanwhile, and just for interest sake. Is your van a 6 or 7 seater. If 7 how is it arranged, 2+3+2 or 2+2+3, (seats from front to rear). Ours is a US version as you might suspect. 7 seater, 2+2+3, but you'd want 3 people on a strict diet to be comfortable in the back seat, so effectively it is a 2+2+2 and on long trips we throw out the back seat so it becomes 2+2+0, or re-arranged to 2+0+2 with the junk in the center of the van.

and here is a good site for your van;
http://www.allpar.com/forums/index.php?showforum=16

Allpar.com

ogriofa

Haya,

96 mazda 121 - all fluid levels are normal, doesnt seem to be any gooeyness anywhere - 40K genuine miles - car in very good condition.

My clutch sticks if ive left it overnight/or at work all day (the last 2 days). One time it screeched, other 2 times no noise. Bring it back to neutral and it works.

Once its running, its grand.

Could it be a cylinder? Any ideas?

thanks