The All Consuming Black Belt

Baggio...

It's really hard to quantify this whole BB concept as it has many different meanings for different people. My perspective has changed since I started training. Originally I thought BB's were something to be revered and were virtually unbeatable (so like every other kid I wanted to have one). I kinda' smile to myself now when I still hear TMA guys going what a privilege and honor it is to have one (but whatever your into I guess). Personally I'm not a big fan of all the bowing and scraping either.

When I got my BB I felt it was a bit of an anti-climax in a way... I just continued on with my training as if nothing had happened. I realized that all it meant was that I could do X Y & Z moves to a specific standard, or pass on similar knowledge to someone else if I wanted too.

That said, it's a good way to measure ones progress through a specific art form for recreational or fitness purposes, etc. But it does not make someone tough or a good fighter. I'm glad I have one, as I can get club insurance, etc. But some people will always be clouded by the "mighty" Black Belt concept. Most of my mates think it's something really special - no matter how much I just try to convince them otherwise.

Personally, I never judge anyone on a "non tangible" achievement. It's what I can see with my own eyes that counts.

That's what it means to me anyway....:)

mark.leonard

Giant_Killer wrote:

Robert Devane of Martial Arts inc is 5th Dan and he's only in his late 20's\early 30's.

I'm pretty sure you missed the thrust of his post...

ColinJennings

I am a relatively recent black belt and it was only when I recieved my first degree that I realised how little I actually knew. Fair enough I know 12 patterns, can break a brick and do a number of things I definitely couldn't as a white belt, but I don't match my own expectations of what a black belt is. I cannot defeat any opponent, I cannot perform any movement perfectly, I cannot do a lot of things I expected a black belt to be able to do when I was a teenager.

While I do accept that a black belt is like a driving license, certain arts and even within arts certain clubs and schools seem to have a different standard apropos black belt grading. I don't think being a black belt makes me a better person, in fact I think the opposite. As a black belt I see what other people can do and I amstill unable to do and constantly try to improve.

I guess it all boils down to the person. If the person is content being a 'black belt' then they will develop the beer belly and the tashe, but if they do want to improve they will continue training and improve both physically and mentally.

Roper

ColinJennings wrote:

certain clubs and schools seem to have a different standard apropos black belt grading.

Sorry, but the last person I heard using the word apropos was Alan Partridge:D

"Hello, I'm looking to get an additional set of speakers for my Aiwa stereo system apropos achieving surround sound..."

memphis

i am training in ITF taekwondo well over 2 years at this stage, and all going well with regular training, and that i should achieve a BB by Christmas of 2007. To me that in itself is a major achievement... at my age (am 25).

But i really must point out that although lots of people view the black belt as a big deal, and the end achievement in ones training and all that jazz, I never started to do TKD on the grounds that one day i would be a BB. i started cos I wanted to get some exercise, I wanted to try something new, take up a new past-time... and i always had a keen interest in MA.

having trained in TKD for about 2 and a half years at this stage i feel that The black belt is merely an achievement for all the time and effert i have put into the training over the last few years, and to gain that means alot to me. But as said, it is like a drivers license... it means you are confident enough to perform various moves, and patterns, and spar (reasonably well) etc... but the truth is your not an expert, there is always somebody who will be better than you.

Anyway, thats my 2 cent in the pot.

smacl

ColinJennings wrote:

I see what other people can do and I amstill unable to do and constantly try to improve.

Yup, thats also one of the principal inspirations that motivates me to keep training. No belts in the style I practice, so I don't know if would be proud to have one or not, guess I probably would. An elasticated black belt could be a few laughs for confounding my jacket wrestling sparring partners, though I guess I would still be the one ending up on the deck first :rolleyes:

kerinsp

I only dabble in martial arts. I came from a supposed kickboxing school where there were gradings and you had to call the instructor "sir" and "sir" wouldn't give you the time of day unless you were at least a brown belt. I thought it was a load of bollox and after joining Ropers class that option was confirmed. No bowing, or deference to a mystical leader (sorry Roper ), just good training and sparring and good tunes too! Couldn't care less about the belts. I used to think having a black belt would be brilliant, an achievment of sorts but its a bit of a scam. Takes years of training to get and you probably wont be a great fighter at the end of it. I dont buy the whole spiritual aspect of martial arts either but thats for another post.

BJJ belts indubitably have more merit in my mind. They are tough to get and you have to earn them.

Millionaire

kerinsp wrote:

BJJ belts indubitably have more merit in my mind. They are tough to get and you have to earn them.

Many other systems are tough to get too.

The kickboxing I did, they were tough to get, and I think my BB exam was over 3 hours and then fairly heavy sparring after. plus push up and sits ups until you near puked to finish it all. anyone who got one, could hold their own as a good stand up fighter for sure. but then again the training, focused mainly on heavy contact fighitng/sparring once you had a few months of basics down.

There when I started in MA, were other rivial Karate clubs(wado ryu) in our area, who even though they did kata, and we did not, would have had a focus on hard sparring too, and their lads could fight a good fight too. and belts were earned there also.

Or take Kyoshunkai Karate...now that would be a tough BB to earn.

kerinsp

fair points.

The appeal of Black belts were ruined for me when I found out the obese guy in the office had a 2nd dan in shotokan.

Jimkel

Giant_Killer wrote:

Robert Devane of Martial Arts inc is 5th Dan and he's only in his late 20's\early 30's.

I've no doubt obout that, I was only referring to JKA\KUGB\USKF Shotokan

Millionaire

I saw up in rural North East Thailand, a few months back I was at a Muay Thai fights, held out farm land with ring set up in a field.

This big Obese Thai fighter was there, and I was have a laugh to myself, thinking he got mixed up and though this was a Sumo contest. Thats how fat he was.

This oppent had a 6 pack and a fighter muscled body. I had money on the 6 pack guy to win. I was sure the fat lad was going to be murdered, I was sure there was no way he could do road work he was so big.

In round 2 fattie sumo man, KO'ed Ong Bac with a feinted right hand, and a left shin kick into the side of his neck where the cartoid artery is. Guy was out for 10.

I asked about, a found out that Fattie in this day, was one of the best fighters in the reigon. Now this guy was serious obese, with an over hanging belly, and was blasting in head kicks no bother.

I was very suprised. I guess there is no definate answer??!!???

Nothingcompares

Well, let's say 30/20 years ago there were a lot of good fighters, boxers, judo guys, don't know much about other martial arts. They probably didn't know much about diet and nutrition other then the commen sense basics. So I'm sure most of them had big apetites and were used to a lot of manual labour, lot of road work, lots of training for their competitions/fights. So when they retired from competiting when they got older, I'd presume for a lot of these people, there eating habits stayed the same but just the exersie amounts decreased, turning from competitve fighter to coach. So over a decade or two they'd gradually turn into "big guys". I think it's possible to tell the idfference to a big fat guy and a small guy who's fat and heavy.

I'm not very experienced in Kung fu, TKD, Karate etc. but I've come across a few guys tht look like "small big" fat guys. People that don't look like they ever had or will have a solid muscle mass. It's just the nature of the sports/games/martial arts. You don't need to be 5% body fat, bench pressing your own body weight to be a good Kenpo guy. but to be successful in mma/judo/boxing similar sports, you want to be that close.

monkey tennis

As far as I'm concerned, 1st Dan is where it begins, not where it ends.

Otherwise it wouldn't be called 1st Dan, eh?

Cake Fiend

Jimkel wrote:

The coloured Belts in Shotokan are referred to as "Kyu" meaning "Competence"

It's actually a little more mundane than that. Kyuu, 級, means 'grade' or 'class'.

Roper wrote:

Someone said to me in the aftermath of this "well, since you can't get a black belt in your club, nobody is going to want to train there".

Sounds good to me! Who would want people training with them who are only after a black belt?

Jimkel wrote:

And referenced History and styles

Er... well, I'd be careful about the use of the word 'history' there. I've seen you quote a lot of romantic martial arts fables alright, but nothing I would take with anything more than a pinch of salt. Don't believe everything you read!

In fact, have a read of this site. This man has some very interesting points about the 'history' and teaching of karate.

Jimkel

Sico wrote:

Er... well, I'd be careful about the use of the word 'history' there. I've seen you quote a lot of romantic martial arts fables alright, but nothing I would take with anything more than a pinch of salt. Don't believe everything you read!

I should of added Mythology to the list of things I reference, Altough when I Told the Legend behind Wing Chun I did include a link to an Alternitive history.
I Agree it is dangerous to believe everything you read, I didn't want my opening post to come across as what I believed as fact, I was just saying what Iv'e learned or heard about Wing Chun in the hope that others would share their toughts or knowledge of The art.

In fact my original idea was to present an Alternitive Route to Womens self defence, In response to MeaveD's Thread. When I read her thread I tought I would start a new thread telling the legend of Wing Chun's Birth as self defence for Women. It is only a legend and probably not told exactly the way it should be, but thats mythology, changing with each new telling.

As for the more recent (1900's) "fables" about Karate, it is recorded history. Gichen Funikoshi did indeed Bring his version of "Te" to Japan, he was not the first but it was his skills that impressed people so much as to make "te" recognised as a Japanese MA, Karate.

His pen name he used to sign his poetry Was "Shoto". His Dojo was named "Shoto kan". Meaning something like Shoto's "House" or "Clan". Depending on which translation you read. There are photo's, books written by Funikoshi, records and surviving students of his students. One of these students went on to form Kyokoshin Karate, and many of his peers formed the various schools of Karate we have today, with some exceptions.
He is reffered to as the father of Modern Karate.

He was The first chief instructor of the JKA, which is still headed up by students of students of Funikoshi.
The KUGB in England's first Chief instructor was Keinosuke Enoeda, a student of Funikoshi sent as an ambassador to teach shotokan abroad.
Hence the "bloodline" of Shotokan is very strong and recent, My Sensie himself was awarded his 1st dan by Enoeda. Making it possible to trace my club directly to Shotokans beginning in 4 steps, My sensei, Enoeda, Nakayama (Who Also tought Enoeda under Funikoshi), Funikoshi. As this is all relatively recent history I would not call these fables.
Strange as it may sound it's true, Thats why the USKF,KUGB,and JKA are all well respected in Shotokan circles.

M.Gatzy

Thats an interesting point, im only a blue belt of t.k.d and i've had very little expierence with many black belts but most of them try to flaunt it, to me a black belt says that this person is a little more expierenced than me nothing more...being a black belt makes you no better than any one else you've just being training longer

Roper wrote:

No no, its not the title of some monster movie...

I was reading some of the posts in another topic and was looking to get some peoples reaction to the concept of the black belt.

For me, nothing means so much and yet so little. I remember starting martial arts as a kid and a black belt was like a God! The ultimate ass kicker with the spiritual highs to match.

Now it seems to me that we never really grow out of that view. Usually when I tell people I do martial arts they say "ooh, are you a black belt?" with some kind of awe. I remember a newbie in a club I used to train in offering to pack my gear for me (I didn't let him, how stupid was I?:D ), and he was about 5 years older than I was!!!!

It was once described to me as being "like a university degree", but thats not true really, as you can expect (in a single country anyway) a degree to represent a general standard. A black belt in Ireland can mean a competitive Judo player or a casual TKD trainer who has put the time in and learned lots of patterns.

I'd be interested to hear your view. This might be a good one for those lurkers who've said they don't think they're experienced enough to comment on other things, as I'm looking for everyones view no matter what stage of MA you're at.

Unpossible

being a black belt makes you no better than any one else you've just being training longer

Actually I would expect a black belt to be of a certain standard, if he can't perform techniques efectively then I would leave the club (if said BB was the main/head teacher).

Usually in a club I would watch to see who was the best and then make it my goal to become as good, strange I guess.

BenZy

As with most other people i think the value of the BB has definetely gone down hill with 5 year old karate and TKD BB's all over the place.

My problem with the black belt holy grail has been the time to stay in one place long enough to get the BB. I wouldn't mind but i have spent as long as 4years training in a single MA and was on the verge of getting there when i decided to go a different way. it was hard as i knew if i stuck it out another year i prob would have got it, but felt i had to go as nothing new had been coming for a long time.


TBH i wouldn't mind having one in some art. its probably a bigger deal to those who've never done any MA. If you tell someone you have a brown belt in this and that - they dont think you've done much (except BJJ if they have a clue) but seem to think the black is a magical step:D

Whizzo

I was watching a TKD BB grading during the summer. When it came to the sparring 2 guys going for 2nd dan and 5th dan came up against each other. The 'agreement' amongst graders was no heavy contact, just show what you can do. The 2nd dan hit the 5th a couple of times heavy and had crossed the 'line'. 5th dan, who up to then, in all prev spars, had been fighting light fast and well, stepped it up and left the 2nd dan on his ass, not from heavy contact but from multiple shots. There was easily 10-15yrs between them in age but I just watched this and thought that it was a great thing to see the difference when someone wanted/chose to turn it on and it showed the difference in experience that these two seperate grades had.
Anyone can wear a blackbelt, but its the holder/wearers experience and experiences that make the difference, in my opinion. Feeling like you've earned it is a great feeling but to feel like you got one 'handy' must be frustrating and devaluing.

Millionaire

My kickboxing teacher is 68, and got a bit of a gut. he can still do full box splits, kick to head height, and on occassion still gloves up and spars, and will send you 10 feet in the air and land you on your head with a double leg sweep, when you least expect it.

Unpossible

My kickboxing teacher is 68, and got a bit of a gut. he can still do full box splits, kick to head height, and on occassion still gloves up and spars, and will send you 10 feet in the air and land you on your head with a double leg sweep, when you least expect it.

I dont want it to seem like Im ragging on BBs with beer bellys, there are a few judoka who I met 2 summers ago who were very capable (all middle age and over) and I'd be happy to train under them.

Strangly enough the best swimming coach I had used to have a huge beer belly, but then he was a fantastic swimer in his day and his technical knowledge was vast. But then I suppose its a different scenario as a swimming coach just has to walk along a deck and describe techniques (withouth getting into the water).

pma-ire

I used to wonder how certain BB's in my old association were able to move with the size of their bellies!!

With my own instructor being an exception in that his skills and movement were not lost because life caught up with his body!! No problem for him to throw a jumping back reverse turning kick at your head in the middle of a sparring session

Now I'm the olde BB with the Big Belly, things have taken on a different perspective

There are of course limits to some of what I can still do! But because I can still teach and coach to the same level if not better than in my slimmer days. I hope people that I come into contact with, get as much from me as I do from training with them!

Martial arts are for everyone, no matter the level of ability! I see a BB as the acknowledgement of a persons hard work to over come any restrictions that they may have felt would not allow them to take part in such an activity.

Although I do know that it seems some BB's are given without any effort being put in and this is where people get peed off on the subject.

edges

My old karate instructor always used to tell us that you don't earn your black belt till after you've recieved it.

It took a while but after being awarded my 1st dan Wado Ryu (the grade I still hold 10 years on) I started to figure it out.

I realised I had become the man that I looked up to as a beginner/kyu grade. As a coloured belt you look up to the seniors, especially the Dan grades (non of that Mr and Sir garbage posted by the TKD guy, I feel for you, that is farcical). After becoming a Dan grade I continued to train and do all the same stuff I always did, maybe taught a little more than before, but what really changed was the way the lower grades regarded you.

Now that is a motivating force, you don't just train to be good and impress your Instructor, you now train to be good so as not to let down the Juniors.

Thats my thoughts anyway.

Oh and my Kenpo instructor has a pot belly and a 'tache, is approaching 60 with a bum ticker, but he can still do the buisness!

galfano78

It's all relative gentlemen.

The General populous views the Black Belt as ooh ahh he must be a savage go'er.

The real purpose of the Black or any belt Belt for that matter is to distinguish students at a glance for the instructor, i.e. what level the students are within the "respected" system and how the class should be geared and to what level.

A good concept in principle.

It falls down terribly though when you factor in human nature and the previous threads have plenty of examples of how people can let it get to their head eg "Pack kit bags" "suck c**k" etc (ok maybe that last one might have been off the Romance section)

It is a shame though when some clubs develop that i'm a black belt and holy-er than god click. Easily propigated when you have a few mindless fools congregating on a tues night slappin' each others back in the local Mc Dojo.

A free trip to the nearest SBG would quickly sort their mindset out methinks

monkey tennis

edges wrote:

My old karate instructor always used to tell us that you don't earn your black belt till after you've recieved it

That doesn't make sense to me. Why give it if it isn't earned?

ColinJennings

I understand the point edges is tyring to make. While you always strive to get your next grade, getting your first degree is different. You think it is all about being able to perform the physical tasks, but once you get your black belt the mental development comes to the fore. You don't grade as rapidly and your mindset changes from "yeah I'm a black belt I'm invincible" to something else that I'm not sure of yet, but it has definitely changed. You do change in your willingness to try new things and your attitude. I can't really explain it, but after the initial ego buzz of getting a black belt, you quickly realise you aren't all that and a bag of potato chips or else you leave, still thinking you are God's gift, when anyone will tell you you cleary aren't.

Black Swan

Several of our students see the black belt as a goal to achieve, and some, who stay the course and reach it, then quit, chalking it up as an achievement. A few others, upon reflection, become disillusioned when the "magic" master does not transform them into Superman or Wonder Woman the moment the black is first tied about their waist. But then there are those dedicated few (and I emphasize "few") who don't put much import in the colour of their belt, but only see it as a very small form of recognition in a lifetime of steps to complete along the way to self improvement. This is one of the three parts of taekwondo that few understand (including me): the "do" or philosophy of the sport and martial art as a way of life.

Millionaire

As some out already said.....alot of these "old school" instructors who started MA in the 1960s and 70s in Ireland, often made great scarfice to learn, as my own instructor got boat/train to London from dublin once a month, to train under his sensi.

However, these guys did not know about or have the knowledge of healty eating and diet we do today, and certainly their wives did not. This was the day of daily frys in the pan with lard, and more than often a few pints with the lads from training on the way home from the session.

Know one knew any better. Hence these guys now in their 50s and 60s with massive guts. Many in their day where formiable fighters, worked doors, and generally were people one would not mess with.

As I said my own teacher is 68, still can spar, still fairly agile, and will set you up, as oppose to fight you, and knock you on your butt before you know it.

paxo

Millionaire wrote:

As some out already said.....alot of these "old school" instructors who started MA in the 1960s and 70s in Ireland, often made great scarfice to learn, as my own instructor got boat/train to London from dublin once a month, to train under his sensi.

However, these guys did not know about or have the knowledge of healty eating and diet we do today, and certainly their wives did not. This was the day of daily frys in the pan with lard, and more than often a few pints with the lads from training on the way home from the session.

Know one knew any better. Hence these guys now in their 50s and 60s with massive guts. Many in their day where formiable fighters, worked doors, and generally were people one would not mess with.

As I said my own teacher is 68, still can spar, still fairly agile, and will set you up, as oppose to fight you, and knock you on your butt before you know it.

I am with Millionaire on this. I knew some of them back in the 70's. Most were not adverse to a pint and a cigarette and all of them liked their grub. They were not what I would describe as fit looking but they could certainly scrap. There was also a view at that time that a BB should be able to fight. Looking back they may not have had the best technique but as I said they could certainly hit. Conversely I have since met instructors who could do full splits, and were buffed but couldn't fight off sleep
Can't say that I remember to many mo's
Paxo