Programming a poker site

FastMachine

Just looking for some opinions here. For any of you familiar with online poker sites, how much work do you think is involved in programming one? What are the different areas that have to be programmed and how long would it take to get it running?

I didn't think it would cost that much but I have a friend who knows a bit more about the area than me and he said it could cost hundreds of thousands. Seems a bit much to me, just wondering what you guys think?

The Corinthian

Are you asking how much would a ‘fly by night’ poker site where security, load and functionality are what we can get away with or how much would it cost to develop and run a poker site which would be scaleable, secure and feature rich enough to compete with the present market offering?

If you meant the latter one, your friend is right. If you meant the former, I hope you’ve a good lawyer for when the site is DDoS'ed or simply falls over or your member's accounts are cracked.

You get what you pay for.

FastMachine

I'm talking a legitimate poker site that would be comparable to the ones already out there. Hard to believe it could cost that much. It doesn't seem like it'd be an overly difficult system to program. I'm probably looking at it a bit optimistically but still, I would've thought it would be more in the tens of thousands than hundreds.

What companies would you approach to get it up and running, or would it be possible/better to bring a team of individual programmers together who would work on it long term as in updating it and fixing any issues that arrive. Any ideas how long it would take to get a project like this to the "open for business" stage?

amen

Your friend is right. For a decent secure, scalable and robust system you are looking at several 100,000's if not more for programming alone. Then you have to factor in the hardware, bandwidth, network/hardware redundancy, back office staff, bank fees (plus percentage to credit cards companies), marketing etc. Don't forget time for stress testing. Yo

You could approach a company or hire individual developers but either way you would need a complete specification. You will also have to spend considerable time white boarding the application and step through all the procedures. You should really get independant verification of your game rules as well to ensure you haven't missed a scenario. You need a method to store all games and analyise for fraud.

You also need a gameing license (gray area for poker in Ireland).

Say it took 6 months(which is a gross under estimation) and 5 decent programmers then for salary alone you are probally looking at €150,000.
Don't forget you have to provide office space, pcs, servers, electricity etc.
You could easily spend €200,000 in the first 6 months.

In case you think I'm a bit crazy I write software for a living and I've seriously looked into this before. FastMachine pm me and I can provide some additonal information and ideas on this if you really wanted to pursue it. There are several ways to skin to cat but not some of time are not worth the time.

e

The Corinthian

FastMachine wrote:

I'm talking a legitimate poker site that would be comparable to the ones already out there. Hard to believe it could cost that much. It doesn't seem like it'd be an overly difficult system to program. I'm probably looking at it a bit optimistically but still, I would've thought it would be more in the tens of thousands than hundreds.

Most WebDev companies that can do it for tens of thousands frankly don’t have the skills in-house to make it secure and scaleable. Additionally you’ll want people who specialize in games development and the gambling industry as a whole. And all those skills are far more difficult to come by and thus expensive accordingly.

This is before you consider, as amen mentioned, hardware, bandwidth, backups, marketing, maintenance, legal costs, CC/bank transactions, etc. Indeed, of the last of these alone, do you know how much it costs to have someone, who is qualified, on call 365/24/7?

Remember, it’s not like a simple online shop. You will be arbitrating and storing people’s winnings - that is ultimately, and legally, real money. That means if someone cracks your database, or it falls over, or the game mechanics are exploited and your customers cry foul, you will be sued for a lot of money.

What companies would you approach to get it up and running, or would it be possible/better to bring a team of individual programmers together who would work on it long term as in updating it and fixing any issues that arrive.

You would want to have a business plan and your actual offering already defined. Having people with experience and a background in this area on your team would also be hugely beneficial. After that you would need at least a technical architecture and possibly even a prototype before attempting to raise real money.

With regard to sources of funding, there are various feasibility study grants even before you go down the EI and/or VC routes - given this, I don’t know how they would apply to a gaming enterprise. You could also partner with an IT company, but as I’ve already said, the smaller WebDev companies simply would not have the level of skills necessary to do it ho high enough a level - taking on an expert in this area as a partner would be a better bet. Another person to take on is a mentor; that is someone who has been successful in the industry (IT/Internet, not necessarily gaming) and who could not only steer you in the right direction but also introduce you to all the right people.

Even if they did you would have to convince them not only that the idea will fly in the face of the existing competition and increasing regulation in the online gaming market, but that you’re actually bringing something to the table - after all, nothing you’ve suggested here is terribly Earth shattering.

Any ideas how long it would take to get a project like this to the "open for business" stage?

Depends. Delays are inevitable, for example even if you’re at the point of confidently going to a VC, that does not mean you’ll get to meet with them the next day and walk out of their office with a cheque - these things can drag on for months. The same goes for development, marketing and everything else.

As such you could realistically be looking at anything between 18 months to a number of years.

The Corinthian

Another thought - go to a bookmaker that has yet to have a significant online presence and pitch it to them, as they would have both the money and the gaming experience. Of course, given this and that you don’t appear to have the technical expertise; the question you will have to ask - because they will - is why they need you?

jd

Skin an existing site , and come up with a good marketing idea to differentiate it from other sites.
jd

FastMachine

jd wrote:

Skin an existing site , and come up with a good marketing idea to differentiate it from other sites.
jd

Nah, I wouldn't be interested in a skin. You're left with about 25-30% of the rake after the skin owner takes their cut. Plus you have absolutely no control over the direction of the network.

Good post Corinthian, some interesting info there.

The Corinthian wrote:

Even if they did you would have to convince them not only that the idea will fly in the face of the existing competition and increasing regulation in the online gaming market, but that you’re actually bringing something to the table - after all, nothing you’ve suggested here is terribly Earth shattering.

I'm not looking for Earth shattering, there's only so much you can do with a poker site. Basically the plan would be to take whats already out there and improve on it feature and interface wise and market it well. You could look at it as a 2nd generation site, as most of the sites out there at present are using the same interface and systems they did when online poker first took off. The present situation in the U.S. is unfortunate but there is still a huge, growing market out there. The U.S. market may also return in future. If you capture a decent % of the market you have a very exciting business prospect. There are relatively small overheads and staff needed for the size of the customer base you'd be serving compared to other businesses.

Another thought - go to a bookmaker that has yet to have a significant online presence and pitch it to them, as they would have both the money and the gaming experience. Of course, given this and that you don’t appear to have the technical expertise; the question you will have to ask - because they will - is why they need you?

I wouldn't have the technical experience to program anything, used to program 3d graphics a few years ago but I haven't a clue about network stuff. I'd see my job (and whoever else was on board with me) as being the person who brings everything together and makes it happen and after that directing the marketing and development of the site.

They wouldn't need me, it's up to them to look after their own interests. I'm just interested in seeing if it's possible for me to get a very big slice of the poker pie that is out there at the moment. I already get a decent slice in that I play for a living but like the goldrush it's the guys selling the shovels that make the serious money. I suppose a feasibilty study is the only way of knowing if it could really work.

amen

You're left with about 25-30% of the rake

not a hope most sites you are lucky to get 5%-10%

The Corinthian

FastMachine wrote:

I'm not looking for Earth shattering, there's only so much you can do with a poker site.

That’s not actually true. I was approached for advice a few years ago about a poker site that actually included a rather innovative idea - which naturally I cannot divulge - that, AFAIK, has yet to be implemented. So there are still quite a few things that you can do with a poker site.

Basically the plan would be to take whats already out there and improve on it feature and interface wise and market it well. You could look at it as a 2nd generation site, as most of the sites out there at present are using the same interface and systems they did when online poker first took off. The present situation in the U.S. is unfortunate but there is still a huge, growing market out there. The U.S. market may also return in future. If you capture a decent % of the market you have a very exciting business prospect. There are relatively small overheads and staff needed for the size of the customer base you'd be serving compared to other businesses.

Two words; market lagger.

Even if you could come out with a professional, secure and robust offering, you would be doing so long after everyone else. You would be asking people to move to a new, and untrusted, site that’s not really offering anything new. And that is if you came out today, which is not going to happen, so you already have to consider that you will be entering the market 18 months or longer from now and how you will compare at that stage.

I wouldn't have the technical experience to program anything, used to program 3d graphics a few years ago but I haven't a clue about network stuff. I'd see my job (and whoever else was on board with me) as being the person who brings everything together and makes it happen and after that directing the marketing and development of the site.

Essentially you’re saying that all you can bring to it is being the boss. This is all very well, but from the perspective of a potential investor, are you even qualified to do that? What proven track record have you at managing such an enterprise? Any enterprise?

The reason I’m saying this is that unless you have a few hundred grand sitting around doing nothing, you’ll need to raise money via an investor and to date you’ve not come up with any even vaguely compelling reasons why someone would want to give you money rather than just hire the people who have the skills in and own 100% of the venture.

I'm just interested in seeing if it's possible for me to get a very big slice of the poker pie that is out there at the moment. I already get a decent slice in that I play for a living but like the goldrush it's the guys selling the shovels that make the serious money.

A lot of people lost a lot of money thinking that way when the dotcom bubble finally burst. They knew there was a pie, so they wanted in, even though they were simply entering an already crowded market with dubious revenue models and business plans.

The problem with gold rushes is that only the ones at the start, and who can exploit their find, actually make anything. Everyone else will lose money.

I suppose a feasibilty study is the only way of knowing if it could really work.

Well, this thread is in part what a feasibility study would be composed of. A number of issues have been raised by both me and amen and unless you can address them then you’re really better off forgetting about it.

FastMachine

The Corinthian wrote:

That’s not actually true. I was approached for advice a few years ago about a poker site that actually included a rather innovative idea - which naturally I cannot divulge - that, AFAIK, has yet to be implemented. So there are still quite a few things that you can do with a poker site.

Yes, improve on existing features and game offerings/incentives but I don't think there is really any necessity for a radical change to the existing format of the sites. One idea I have is to offer bigger stakes than any other site on the net, probably 500/1K NL. Admittedly there are only a tiny circle of players that will play it but they would come to the site for the biggest games around and the railbirds would come to watch, just like they do on Prima now, thus upping the visibility of the site and attracting more players. A great, and easy, way to create a buzz about the site, imo.

Even if you could come out with a professional, secure and robust offering, you would be doing so long after everyone else. You would be asking people to move to a new, and untrusted, site that’s not really offering anything new. And that is if you came out today, which is not going to happen, so you already have to consider that you will be entering the market 18 months or longer from now and how you will compare at that stage.

Yes there mightn't be space in the market for another site, then again, there might. It's taking off in new territories the whole time, and its growing in the existing ones. Very hard to know, alot of analysis would be required to see if it's worthwhile doing it.

Essentially you’re saying that all you can bring to it is being the boss. This is all very well, but from the perspective of a potential investor, are you even qualified to do that? What proven track record have you at managing such an enterprise? Any enterprise?

The reason I’m saying this is that unless you have a few hundred grand sitting around doing nothing, you’ll need to raise money via an investor and to date you’ve not come up with any even vaguely compelling reasons why someone would want to give you money rather than just hire the people who have the skills in and own 100% of the venture.

I don't intend to just be the boss. I'm not expecting anybody to hand me a few hundred K out of the blue, if I thought the risk/reward was very favourable I would be willing to invest a substantial sum of my own cash into this. That's why I wasn't too happy to hear that it would cost so much to start up as I'd be putting my own cash into it. I could see myself investing up to 100K (although I'd prefer 50K if I could get another investor), a big % of the start up cost so that's what I would be bringing to the table. Grants/Business loans are some options for the remainder of the start up costs.

Well, this thread is in part what a feasibility study would be composed of. A number of issues have been raised by both me and amen and unless you can address them then you’re really better off forgetting about it.

I will actually forget about it fairly quickly if/when I decide it's not worth pursuing.

bohsman

amen wrote:

not a hope most sites you are lucky to get 5%-10%

Actually if you buy a skin you only pay 30% or so to the provider.

The Corinthian

FastMachine wrote:

Yes, improve on existing features and game offerings/incentives but I don't think there is really any necessity for a radical change to the existing format of the sites.

There’s actually a lot more that one could do. As I said, one idea, that would be quite radical, was suggested to me a few years back.

Yes there mightn't be space in the market for another site, then again, there might. It's taking off in new territories the whole time, and its growing in the existing ones. Very hard to know, alot of analysis would be required to see if it's worthwhile doing it.

As I said, you’re not actually suggesting any new territories, only entering into exiting ones years after everyone else has. I think this is really the linchpin to your analysis, because you won’t be entering the market tomorrow or even in six months, but probably in a few years at which point your offering may well be completely stale in a mature market that has additionally suffered from present (and future) US legislative.

Without something to differentiate you you’re just another wanna-be, which is well enough in a lot of Internet ventures where the cost to market entry are much lower, but online gambling is not one of those.

I don't intend to just be the boss. I'm not expecting anybody to hand me a few hundred K out of the blue, if I thought the risk/reward was very favourable I would be willing to invest a substantial sum of my own cash into this. That's why I wasn't too happy to hear that it would cost so much to start up as I'd be putting my own cash into it. I could see myself investing up to 100K (although I'd prefer 50K if I could get another investor), a big % of the start up cost so that's what I would be bringing to the table. Grants/Business loans are some options for the remainder of the start up costs.

If you can raise 50 - 100k then one route is to build a company with some of the necessary people and a proposition and/or prototype. Partnering with a bookmaker and/or a casino could get you some additional capital and connections.

As for cost, this is high, but that is the reality of doing something properly in IT. Ireland has a terrible reputation for fly-by-night development, where it is seemingly more important to get something done cheaply than done properly. This is not helped by myths such as the “the Ryanair site only cost a few grand” fantasy (the front end design did, but the clever bits that actually allows you to book your flight went into the millions of Ir£).

Don’t get me wrong, one can overpay for IT too and not all development really has do be done by high-end consultancies, but when you’re opening yourself to legal action if someone cracks your server, most of the WebDev companies out there simply won’t be able to produce something to the level that would be needed to cover you.