New poll religion in schools

TempestSabre

Ickle Magoo wrote:

Well, frankly you'd think so the way some people assume things...;)

Ickle Magoo wrote:

It's not a loss of will round these parts - we don't have the luxury of a public transport system, Luas, or whatever - it's car or shanks' pony. Some people cannot afford the time or effort of loading up several children & walking them miles in horrible weather to get their 4/5/6yr old safely to the school gates. I walked or cycled to school too - but I don't really think it is a viable option for those with very young children.

Theres an awful lot of people in Dublin don't have access to the DART or LUAS either.

You said it. Time or effort. But it has turned full circle here. We often walk our toddlers to the local schools/creches (not always the nearest) because its faster to do than driving. It might save 30mins. I'm sure there are places where walking or public transport isn't an option. But its the minority not the majority. Most people take the car because it less effort and time. I do it myself.:o

TempestSabre

TheBigLebowski wrote:

If I had my way religion would be banned, not just from schools, but from Ireland, for being a ridiculous (and dangerous) idea. I seriously have to wonder about anyone who believes in it.

"There are no atheists in foxholes"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheists_in_foxholes

Its only a sound bite and I don't want to sidetrack the topic. I sit on the fence myself.

Ickle Magoo

My sons creche is a couple of miles away on a 100kph ring-road...I'm not walking with him until sufficient public transport is provided...I know many, many parents from all over non-Dublin Ireland with the same problem.

Especially now it is cold & dark - and usually wet to boot, do you really think people should walk miles to & from a school - with a buggy & other kids? I have a baby & if my son was going to school I'd have to leave in the middle of the night to get him there & back in time for the baby's feeds - not to mention how wet & miserable we would all be...my entire day would revolve around school pick ups & drop-offs. I have no issue with puting time & effort into walking from A -B but when my childs comfort or safety is in the balance & there is no public transport system - then there is no alternative to driving.

Triangle

I think religion itself has no part in our schooling system. But then some sort of civic responsibility needs to be taught in schools.
Historically this has been taught by the religion of the school (i.e. the religions view on morality was taught), if we remove religion as a subject in school then sometyhing else needs to replace it.

TempestSabre

I think we're getting off topic here. But I agree with you re:use of the car. I make the choice myself and most of the time I use the car. But if required it is possible to rearrange your life to avoid the car, and use public transport. But I like many have chosen not to do so. As the disadvantage outweigh the advantages. Ironically, as I spent most of my school & college years using public transport I hate traveling on it now. Especially since I now know how good it is in many other countries, and how bad ours is.

But in terms of finding non religious education. Its there if you want to find it.

Ickle Magoo

To say there is no morality without religion is just rediculous.

I am athiest, I teach my children morals - this "only religion produces good people" attitude drives me bonkers! I presume the Irish crime rate is zero as the civic attitude taught in the Catholic schools here is so wonderful?! :rolleyes:

Edited to say: the above was in response to Triangle - I forgot to quote, sorry...

Ickle Magoo

TempestSabre wrote:

But in terms of finding non religious education. Its there if you want to find it.

It's there - just - but if you read my original posts on this thread you will see that it is not nearly acceptable to me that publicly offered education has decended to the state that it is now in & why. I think to assume that non-religious schools now exist in Ireland so all is well is avoiding admiting the extent of the issue...

TempestSabre

Triangle wrote:

I think religion itself has no part in our schooling system. But then some sort of civic responsibility needs to be taught in schools.
Historically this has been taught by the religion of the school (i.e. the religions view on morality was taught), if we remove religion as a subject in school then sometyhing else needs to replace it.

Something along those lines is the way it works in japan. I was doing some reading on the web about it and its an interesting idea. For some reason I'm having a flashback to Starship Troopers for some reason.

TempestSabre

Ickle Magoo wrote:

...I presume the Irish crime rate is zero as the civic attitude taught in the Catholic schools here is so wonderful?!......

I suspect that those linked to the crime rate haven't the greatest attendance records.

Ickle Magoo wrote:

It's there - just - but if you read my original posts on this thread you will see that it is not nearly acceptable to me that publicly offered education has decended to the state that it is now in & why. I think to assume that non-religious schools now exist in Ireland so all is well is avoiding admiting the extent of the issue...

Descended from what exactly?

The current situation is far from ideal I agree. Especially in the cultural changes in society over the past decade or so. But thats a very short time compared to the how long the system has been in place. I'm just saying its not like you've NO choice which is the picture being portrayed by some.

Nevyn

TempestSabre wrote:

But in terms of finding non religious education. Its there if you want to find it.

For a lot of people it is not.

Triangle

Ickle Magoo wrote:

To say there is no morality without religion is just rediculous.

I am athiest, I teach my children morals - this "only religion produces good people" attitude drives me bonkers! I presume the Irish crime rate is zero as the civic attitude taught in the Catholic schools here is so wonderful?! :rolleyes:

Edited to say: the above was in response to Triangle - I forgot to quote, sorry...

Ickle,
I never said there was no morality without religion. I am an Athiest but I have a good sense of morality (imo).
What i did say was - if you look at the historic schooling systems (majority of them) then the morality was always taught in Religion classes, if it was taught at all.
Morality is not something you can just spend 1 hour a day at. it is a collection of upbringing, peers, and environment. But it should be addresssed in school in some sort of fashion.

TempestSabre

Thaedydal wrote:

For a lot of people it is not.

Being so close to Christmas (religious I know) and I don't want to start panto posting, but its not as hard as some make out. You could attend a parish schools and opt out of religion. Same way some opt out of sport or Irish etc.

Ickle Magoo

TempestSabre wrote:

I suspect that those linked to the crime rate haven't the greatest attendance records.

I think the suggestion that those that listen to religious instruction are better - morally or behaviourally than those that don't is complete & utter nonsence, lol!

TempestSabre wrote:

Descended from what exactly?

The current situation is far from ideal I agree. Especially in the cultural changes in society over the past decade or so. But thats a very short time compared to the how long the system has been in place. I'm just saying its not like you've NO choice which is the picture being portrayed by some.

Maybe decended is a bad word to use - undeveloped, archiac, old-fashioned, devisive, discrimnatory, etc, etc may have been better - if not a little lengthier...the old "such a short time since cultural change" card was played earlier in the thread...again I would have to ask why other countries were capapble of accepting & moving forward with these changes while Ireland remained stuck in the past with a Church-led/owned public education system...

Some people do have NO choice, those lucky few with a choice have a very, very limited choice which means they may have to entroll children at birth, campaign local authorities for many years, travel long distances & are restricted as to where they can then move to in the interim yrs...far from ideal is putting it mildly - as any one of the parents actually wanting their child to experience multi-cultural & muti-religious education has been trying to tell you.

Ickle Magoo

TempestSabre wrote:

Being so close to Christmas (religious I know) and I don't want to start panto posting, but its not as hard as some make out. You could attend a parish schools and opt out of religion. Same way some opt out of sport or Irish etc.

Tempest, I get sooooooo angry when people think my kids sitting in a corridor while the rest of their peers do something relative to their religion is an acceptable alternative to modernising the education system here...I really don't think it is something you can possibly understand unless you feel strongly about your children not attending a religious school.

Ickle Magoo

Triangle wrote:

Ickle,
I never said there was no morality without religion. I am an Athiest but I have a good sense of morality (imo).
What i did say was - if you look at the historic schooling systems (majority of them) then the morality was always taught in Religion classes, if it was taught at all.
Morality is not something you can just spend 1 hour a day at. it is a collection of upbringing, peers, and environment. But it should be addresssed in school in some sort of fashion.

Surely the most basic of school rules set out morality? No bullying, no violence, no stealing, etc, etc? Not to mention the most basic of parenting...religious or not there are always going to be parents that fail their children in that respect. If it is not something than can be taught in 1hr a day classes then surely that rules out religious classes as having any impact on morality at all?

TempestSabre

Ickle Magoo wrote:

I think the suggestion that those that listen to religious instruction are better - morally or behaviourally than those that don't is complete & utter nonsence, lol!

I meant they probably don't listen to any instruction, religious or otherwise.

Ickle Magoo wrote:

Maybe decended is a bad word to use - undeveloped, archiac, old-fashioned, devisive, discrimnatory, etc, etc may have been better - if not a little lengthier...the old "such a short time since cultural change" card was played earlier in the thread...again I would have to ask why other countries were capapble of accepting & moving forward with these changes while Ireland remained stuck in the past with a Church-led/owned public education system...

IMO other countries had social & cultural changes that forced the change much earlier.

Ickle Magoo wrote:

Some people do have NO choice, those lucky few with a choice have a very, very limited choice which means they may have to entroll children at birth, campaign local authorities for many years, travel long distances & are restricted as to where they can then move to in the interim yrs...far from ideal is putting it mildly - as any one of the parents actually wanting their child to experience multi-cultural & muti-religious education has been trying to tell you.

People move to have better access to resources, employment etc. I don't see how non religious education is any different.

Ickle Magoo

Hmmm - I think we'll have to agree to disagree....

I also think you could draw the comparison between jobs, resources, etc & non-religious schools if there were 1000 jobs & 5000 houses for the entire country...as it is the comparison is wayyyyy off! Despite having the choice of many religious schools in the area, our local ET school is made up of 40% of Catholic children - if you roll that out nationwide, would that not suggest a huge overhall of the education system is LONG overdue?

layke

Axe Religion as it is now. It's the churches job to teach you if your into that sort of thing.

However I would be in favor of a class that doesn't actually just teach christianity but explains more about different religions and trys to teach tollerance and that 'everyone is different' type of atitude.

So yes I do like the idea of religion, just not taching a specific one to kids.

Nevyn

TempestSabre wrote:

Being so close to Christmas (religious I know) and I don't want to start panto posting, but its not as hard as some make out. You could attend a parish schools and opt out of religion. Same way some opt out of sport or Irish etc.

Again it sets up a conflict in the messages being given to children and can undermind the teacher and cause confusion.

Clearly you dont see this as a big issue for you TempestSabre but it is for others who have children and see that the system should be changed.
Why not have the RE at the end of the school day so that those who do not want to particpath can go home ?

TempestSabre

Ickle Magoo wrote:

Tempest, I get sooooooo angry when people think my kids sitting in a corridor while the rest of their peers do something relative to their religion is an acceptable alternative to modernising the education system here...I really don't think it is something you can possibly understand unless you feel strongly about your children not attending a religious school.

Well the school should at least provide them a room to study instead. We dropped out of Latin and had a study period instead. Most of us took up another subject outside of school to compensate.

I take your point about, that there should be a better system. Theres two sides of it. Religious schools offering alternatives, and still receive state funding. Or don't and lose some state funding. Then provide funding for none religious schools like the educate together.

http://www.educatetogether.ie/4_help_us_with_our_work/donations.html
http://www.educatetogether.ie/4_help_us_with_our_work/lobbying.html

My opinion is that religious education is usually mediocre, and often thrown in as a token gesture rather than the indoctrination that people are suggesting. I can't imagine unless you've an especially fervent teacher that it has much effect, especially when you consider the apathy towards religion of any kind of younger generations, and I included my own in that. after being through the system.

Personally I think the bigger problem is the lack of school spaces of ANY kind. The lack of capacity in the system as whole as massive problem and its this govt thats to blame for that. Then theres the health service, but don't get me started in THAT!

Ickle Magoo

Whether it is fervent or not is not the point. Am I wrong to assume you are an Irish Catholic? Appologies if you are not - it's just the impression you give.

Picture this...my child goes to school aged 4yrs & 9months - after yrs of being told that we believe there is no God but some people believe there is, he has to sing hymns or prayers, is taught that there is indeed a God, there is a Hell that bad children go to, etc, etc [this does happen at our local Catholic primary]. He is taught only one way of thinking with regards to spirituality & that way goes against everything he has been brought up with & everything his parents & family believe. To top it all off he is segregated from his peers when religious classes are taught because they are not actually religious classes - they are Catholicism classes.

Why can't Ireland provide children (who only have religion because of their parents beliefs afterall) with a diverse multi-cultural, multi-religious education like most other modern day countries & leave the specific beliefs/teachings of each family up to the parents? They are the ones that try to steer their children towards a particular religion - or not...

Nevyn

Looking back on school is a lot different as an adult then having to deal with the effects it can have on your child has a parent.

If there had of been an educate together school with in reasonible distance to me then I would not have had the many heartfelt and upsetting conversations and being up nights with one of my children who was worried that his parents and his sister were going to die and go to hell as we didnt' go to mass.

I don't ignore the religious and spiritual aspects of my childrens lives.
We talk about things a lot and I answer thier questions and encourage them to ask questions but when christian morals and ideals and way of thinking are taught as fact along side 2+2=4 then children will see and think that this is the norm and how can teacher be right about everything but not religious matter.

TempestSabre

Ickle Magoo - I think if you have such strong opinions and reinforce them so strongly at home, then I'd have been more circumspect about the conflict between that and whats taught in the school you choose for your kids. Thats just my own opinion probably based on none of the actual facts. Which obviously is always going to be the case on a forum like this. Everyones circumstance is different. :cool:

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Can any1 give an example where a country has one overwhelmingly dominant single religion. Where they have a school system linked to that religion, that has changed to remove all religion from the school syllabus.

Secondly. Can any1 also give examples of where a non religious state school system has been setup to remove the dominance of religious schools in the schools system.

In both cases has this change removing RE from religious schools or the introduction of non RE state schools come about in the last 40yrs? I'm curious where this has happened, and interested to read about how it was implemented.

Triangle

TempestSabre wrote:

Ickle Magoo - I think if you have such strong opinions and reinforce them so strongly at home, then I'd have been more circumspect about the conflict between that and whats taught in the school you choose for your kids. Thats just my own opinion probably based on none of the actual facts. Which obviously is always going to be the case on a forum like this. Everyones circumstance is different. :cool:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Can any1 give an example where a country has one overwhelmingly dominant single religion. Where they have a school system linked to that religion, that has changed to remove all religion from the school syllabus.

Secondly. Can any1 also give examples of where a non religious state school system has been setup to remove the dominance of religious schools in the schools system.

In both cases has this change removing RE from religious schools or the introduction of non RE state schools come about in the last 40yrs? I'm curious where this has happened, and interested to read about how it was implemented.

Tempest,
I hate answering a question with a question but...

Can you name a country that has set an example by banning all smoking in the workplace?

Just because it has never been done, doesn't mean it can't be done.

Just my two cents.

Trig.

Ickle Magoo

TempestSabre wrote:

Ickle Magoo - I think if you have such strong opinions and reinforce them so strongly at home, then I'd have been more circumspect about the conflict between that and whats taught in the school you choose for your kids. Thats just my own opinion probably based on none of the actual facts. Which obviously is always going to be the case on a forum like this. Everyones circumstance is different. :cool:

Does that mean I should temper my families beliefs to fit in with the general education system here? :eek: I'm lucky, my kids are going to an ET school - only because I put their names down at birth & we are willing to stay put in this area to ensure they get a broad-minded education...either that or we move back to civilisation :cool:

TempestSabre wrote:

Can any1 give an example where a country has one overwhelmingly dominant single religion. Where they have a school system linked to that religion, that has changed to remove all religion from the school syllabus.

I asked for a multi-religious education with no emphasis placed on any particular religion - I think most people agree a general religious education is not a bad thing, it's just the "this how we do it & this is what they do" ethos that most disagree with.

Most countries education systems began with the church & are now state run & non-religious other than unbiased teaching about all religions....you want an example? How about Scotland...it's public education system was implimented during the protestant reformation in by the priesthood offering classes to the poor....2006 - non/multi-denominational public education paid by the tax payer.

Main article: Education in Scotland

The Church of Scotland was established in 1560, during the Protestant Reformation period as the official state religion in Scotland, and in the following year it set out to provide a school in every parish controlled by the local kirk-session, with education to be provided free to the poor, and the expectation that church pressure would ensure that all children took part. In 1633 the Parliament of Scotland introduced local taxation to fund this provision. Schooling was not free, but the tax support kept fees low, and the church and charity funded poorer students. This had considerable success, but by the late 18th century the physical extent of some parishes and population growth in others led to an increasing role for "adventure schools" funded from fees and for schools funded by religious charities, initially Protestant and later Roman Catholic.

In 1872 education for all children aged 5 to 13 was made compulsory with "public schools" (in the Scots meaning of schools for the general public) under local school boards. The leaving age was raised to 14 in 1883, and a Leaving Certificate Examination was introduced in 1888 to set national standards for secondary education. School fees were ended in 1890. The Scottish Education Department ran the system centrally, with local authorities running the schools with considerable autonomy. In 1999, following devolution from the Parliament of the United Kingdom to the new Scottish Parliament, central organisation of education was taken over by departments of the Scottish Executive, with running the schools coming under unitary authority districts.

TempestSabre wrote:

Secondly. Can any1 also give examples of where a non religious state school system has been setup to remove the dominance of religious schools in the schools system.

In both cases has this change removing RE from religious schools or the introduction of non RE state schools come about in the last 40yrs? I'm curious where this has happened, and interested to read about how it was implemented.

I don't think it was set up with the distinct aim of removing the dominance of religious schools from the school system - tho perhaps that was an added bonus - I think the Scots realised that in order to have an education system that would be used & respected by all it's children, you need to take the power of educating the next generation out of a particular religious bodies hands & make it an education for all, being educated about all - and to think they clicked onto the fact over a hundred years ago...the Scots are a fairly progressive, revolutionary bunch mind you. Usually miles ahead of their contemporaries, lol...:p

TempestSabre

Triangle wrote:

Tempest,
...Just because it has never been done, doesn't mean it can't be done...

As I said a few posts earlier...

TempestSabre wrote:

....there should be a better system. ...

You seem to think I'm against a better system I'm not. In fact I'm for it. I'm just pointing out that fact that the reason the current system exists is historical. There wasn't any real pressure to change until recently.

Theres been a few posts about other countries systems being better. I could only think of countries where the religion was mixed much earlier, or some other major event that seperated religion from state education. I'd be interested in hearing more info from someone with some knowledge about such matters.

RainyDay

TempestSabre wrote:

Ah yes that makes more sense.

You can pick a school near yourself, or near public transport or one thats needs a car. Thats a matter of choice for most people, not everyone of course.

Personally I got the bus or cycled to primary school, secondary, college etc.

So please enlighten us as to how a couple living in Leopardstown with 2 kids (lets say 5 year & 8 years old) can pick a non-denominational school near themselves or near public transport. Dad leaves home by car at 7 am to work at Intel or HP in Leixlip. The nearest non-denominational primary school would be Rathfarnham or Ranalagh.

TempestSabre

Ickle Magoo wrote:

Does that mean I should temper my families beliefs to fit in with the general education system here? :eek: I'm lucky, my kids are going to an ET school - only because I put their names down at birth & we are willing to stay put in this area to ensure they get a broad-minded education...either that or we move back to civilisation :cool: [\QUOTE]

I don't understand your point. I'm just saying that if you have specific requirements of a RE syllabus, I'd assume you'd pick a school that meets those requirements. If you are saying it doesn't exist in your area, then since I don't know your area I can only assume you're right. But I think there are options to explore in the majority of this tiny country.

Ickle Magoo wrote:

How about Scotland...it's public education system was implimented during the protestant reformation in by the priesthood offering classes to the poor....2006 - non/multi-denominational public education paid by the tax payer.

From my limited understanding in Scotland the majority of schools are non-denominational, which is essentially varous denominations of Protestants. RC schools are seperate. It doesn't cater for anyone else, for example Muslims. But I could be completely wrong as know very little about it. Seems like theres a lot of debate in Scotland about it though.

http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=225
http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/education.cfm?id=1599092006
http://www.sundayherald.com/45348
http://education.guardian.co.uk/faithschools/story/0,,1708826,00.html

TempestSabre

RainyDay wrote:

So please enlighten us as to how a couple living in Leopardstown with 2 kids (lets say 5 year & 8 years old) can pick a non-denominational school near themselves or near public transport. Dad leaves home by car at 7 am to work at Intel or HP in Leixlip. The nearest non-denominational primary school would be Rathfarnham or Ranalagh.

Rathfarnham or Ranelagh are not a million miles away from leopardstown. The other partner in the couple, walks or uses the park and ride and get the Luas to Ranalegh? or father goes to Rathfarnham, then gets back on to the M50? Perhaps find a Parish school in the area with a syllabus that best matches your requirements?

Ickle Magoo

Well, being brought up in Scotland I can only go on my own experiences which were being taught RE (religious education) which was about all religions, not specifically one or another...there was no Christian emphasis at all & as a school we celebrated Eid, Hanuka, etc, etc, as well as Christmas, Halloween, Pagan & Celtic festivals & so on...

My primary school was physically split into two - one half was a private RC primary which was run by priests & nuns - & the other half was state funded & included everyone else, Muslim, Jewish, Hindi, Protestant, etc, etc...non-denominational doesn't mean protestant - AFAIK it means non-denominational - of no religious denomination at all.

I don't believe there are any schools left which cater specifically for one religion (other than the RC separatism of course :rolleyes:) but then that is exactly what I'd like here, multi-denominational education...I want my children to have access to Rabbis, Amans, Nuns, etc, etc as I want them to mix with children from other faiths & cultures. In this day & age surely it's not too much to ask?!