New poll religion in schools

Ickle Magoo

Whether it is fervent or not is not the point. Am I wrong to assume you are an Irish Catholic? Appologies if you are not - it's just the impression you give.

Picture this...my child goes to school aged 4yrs & 9months - after yrs of being told that we believe there is no God but some people believe there is, he has to sing hymns or prayers, is taught that there is indeed a God, there is a Hell that bad children go to, etc, etc [this does happen at our local Catholic primary]. He is taught only one way of thinking with regards to spirituality & that way goes against everything he has been brought up with & everything his parents & family believe. To top it all off he is segregated from his peers when religious classes are taught because they are not actually religious classes - they are Catholicism classes.

Why can't Ireland provide children (who only have religion because of their parents beliefs afterall) with a diverse multi-cultural, multi-religious education like most other modern day countries & leave the specific beliefs/teachings of each family up to the parents? They are the ones that try to steer their children towards a particular religion - or not...

Nevyn

Looking back on school is a lot different as an adult then having to deal with the effects it can have on your child has a parent.

If there had of been an educate together school with in reasonible distance to me then I would not have had the many heartfelt and upsetting conversations and being up nights with one of my children who was worried that his parents and his sister were going to die and go to hell as we didnt' go to mass.

I don't ignore the religious and spiritual aspects of my childrens lives.
We talk about things a lot and I answer thier questions and encourage them to ask questions but when christian morals and ideals and way of thinking are taught as fact along side 2+2=4 then children will see and think that this is the norm and how can teacher be right about everything but not religious matter.

TempestSabre

Ickle Magoo - I think if you have such strong opinions and reinforce them so strongly at home, then I'd have been more circumspect about the conflict between that and whats taught in the school you choose for your kids. Thats just my own opinion probably based on none of the actual facts. Which obviously is always going to be the case on a forum like this. Everyones circumstance is different. :cool:

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Can any1 give an example where a country has one overwhelmingly dominant single religion. Where they have a school system linked to that religion, that has changed to remove all religion from the school syllabus.

Secondly. Can any1 also give examples of where a non religious state school system has been setup to remove the dominance of religious schools in the schools system.

In both cases has this change removing RE from religious schools or the introduction of non RE state schools come about in the last 40yrs? I'm curious where this has happened, and interested to read about how it was implemented.

Triangle

TempestSabre wrote:

Ickle Magoo - I think if you have such strong opinions and reinforce them so strongly at home, then I'd have been more circumspect about the conflict between that and whats taught in the school you choose for your kids. Thats just my own opinion probably based on none of the actual facts. Which obviously is always going to be the case on a forum like this. Everyones circumstance is different. :cool:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Can any1 give an example where a country has one overwhelmingly dominant single religion. Where they have a school system linked to that religion, that has changed to remove all religion from the school syllabus.

Secondly. Can any1 also give examples of where a non religious state school system has been setup to remove the dominance of religious schools in the schools system.

In both cases has this change removing RE from religious schools or the introduction of non RE state schools come about in the last 40yrs? I'm curious where this has happened, and interested to read about how it was implemented.

Tempest,
I hate answering a question with a question but...

Can you name a country that has set an example by banning all smoking in the workplace?

Just because it has never been done, doesn't mean it can't be done.

Just my two cents.

Trig.

Ickle Magoo

TempestSabre wrote:

Ickle Magoo - I think if you have such strong opinions and reinforce them so strongly at home, then I'd have been more circumspect about the conflict between that and whats taught in the school you choose for your kids. Thats just my own opinion probably based on none of the actual facts. Which obviously is always going to be the case on a forum like this. Everyones circumstance is different. :cool:

Does that mean I should temper my families beliefs to fit in with the general education system here? :eek: I'm lucky, my kids are going to an ET school - only because I put their names down at birth & we are willing to stay put in this area to ensure they get a broad-minded education...either that or we move back to civilisation :cool:

TempestSabre wrote:

Can any1 give an example where a country has one overwhelmingly dominant single religion. Where they have a school system linked to that religion, that has changed to remove all religion from the school syllabus.

I asked for a multi-religious education with no emphasis placed on any particular religion - I think most people agree a general religious education is not a bad thing, it's just the "this how we do it & this is what they do" ethos that most disagree with.

Most countries education systems began with the church & are now state run & non-religious other than unbiased teaching about all religions....you want an example? How about Scotland...it's public education system was implimented during the protestant reformation in by the priesthood offering classes to the poor....2006 - non/multi-denominational public education paid by the tax payer.

Main article: Education in Scotland

The Church of Scotland was established in 1560, during the Protestant Reformation period as the official state religion in Scotland, and in the following year it set out to provide a school in every parish controlled by the local kirk-session, with education to be provided free to the poor, and the expectation that church pressure would ensure that all children took part. In 1633 the Parliament of Scotland introduced local taxation to fund this provision. Schooling was not free, but the tax support kept fees low, and the church and charity funded poorer students. This had considerable success, but by the late 18th century the physical extent of some parishes and population growth in others led to an increasing role for "adventure schools" funded from fees and for schools funded by religious charities, initially Protestant and later Roman Catholic.

In 1872 education for all children aged 5 to 13 was made compulsory with "public schools" (in the Scots meaning of schools for the general public) under local school boards. The leaving age was raised to 14 in 1883, and a Leaving Certificate Examination was introduced in 1888 to set national standards for secondary education. School fees were ended in 1890. The Scottish Education Department ran the system centrally, with local authorities running the schools with considerable autonomy. In 1999, following devolution from the Parliament of the United Kingdom to the new Scottish Parliament, central organisation of education was taken over by departments of the Scottish Executive, with running the schools coming under unitary authority districts.

TempestSabre wrote:

Secondly. Can any1 also give examples of where a non religious state school system has been setup to remove the dominance of religious schools in the schools system.

In both cases has this change removing RE from religious schools or the introduction of non RE state schools come about in the last 40yrs? I'm curious where this has happened, and interested to read about how it was implemented.

I don't think it was set up with the distinct aim of removing the dominance of religious schools from the school system - tho perhaps that was an added bonus - I think the Scots realised that in order to have an education system that would be used & respected by all it's children, you need to take the power of educating the next generation out of a particular religious bodies hands & make it an education for all, being educated about all - and to think they clicked onto the fact over a hundred years ago...the Scots are a fairly progressive, revolutionary bunch mind you. Usually miles ahead of their contemporaries, lol...:p

TempestSabre

Triangle wrote:

Tempest,
...Just because it has never been done, doesn't mean it can't be done...

As I said a few posts earlier...

TempestSabre wrote:

....there should be a better system. ...

You seem to think I'm against a better system I'm not. In fact I'm for it. I'm just pointing out that fact that the reason the current system exists is historical. There wasn't any real pressure to change until recently.

Theres been a few posts about other countries systems being better. I could only think of countries where the religion was mixed much earlier, or some other major event that seperated religion from state education. I'd be interested in hearing more info from someone with some knowledge about such matters.

RainyDay

TempestSabre wrote:

Ah yes that makes more sense.

You can pick a school near yourself, or near public transport or one thats needs a car. Thats a matter of choice for most people, not everyone of course.

Personally I got the bus or cycled to primary school, secondary, college etc.

So please enlighten us as to how a couple living in Leopardstown with 2 kids (lets say 5 year & 8 years old) can pick a non-denominational school near themselves or near public transport. Dad leaves home by car at 7 am to work at Intel or HP in Leixlip. The nearest non-denominational primary school would be Rathfarnham or Ranalagh.

TempestSabre

Ickle Magoo wrote:

Does that mean I should temper my families beliefs to fit in with the general education system here? :eek: I'm lucky, my kids are going to an ET school - only because I put their names down at birth & we are willing to stay put in this area to ensure they get a broad-minded education...either that or we move back to civilisation :cool: [\QUOTE]

I don't understand your point. I'm just saying that if you have specific requirements of a RE syllabus, I'd assume you'd pick a school that meets those requirements. If you are saying it doesn't exist in your area, then since I don't know your area I can only assume you're right. But I think there are options to explore in the majority of this tiny country.

Ickle Magoo wrote:

How about Scotland...it's public education system was implimented during the protestant reformation in by the priesthood offering classes to the poor....2006 - non/multi-denominational public education paid by the tax payer.

From my limited understanding in Scotland the majority of schools are non-denominational, which is essentially varous denominations of Protestants. RC schools are seperate. It doesn't cater for anyone else, for example Muslims. But I could be completely wrong as know very little about it. Seems like theres a lot of debate in Scotland about it though.

http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=225
http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/education.cfm?id=1599092006
http://www.sundayherald.com/45348
http://education.guardian.co.uk/faithschools/story/0,,1708826,00.html

TempestSabre

RainyDay wrote:

So please enlighten us as to how a couple living in Leopardstown with 2 kids (lets say 5 year & 8 years old) can pick a non-denominational school near themselves or near public transport. Dad leaves home by car at 7 am to work at Intel or HP in Leixlip. The nearest non-denominational primary school would be Rathfarnham or Ranalagh.

Rathfarnham or Ranelagh are not a million miles away from leopardstown. The other partner in the couple, walks or uses the park and ride and get the Luas to Ranalegh? or father goes to Rathfarnham, then gets back on to the M50? Perhaps find a Parish school in the area with a syllabus that best matches your requirements?

Ickle Magoo

Well, being brought up in Scotland I can only go on my own experiences which were being taught RE (religious education) which was about all religions, not specifically one or another...there was no Christian emphasis at all & as a school we celebrated Eid, Hanuka, etc, etc, as well as Christmas, Halloween, Pagan & Celtic festivals & so on...

My primary school was physically split into two - one half was a private RC primary which was run by priests & nuns - & the other half was state funded & included everyone else, Muslim, Jewish, Hindi, Protestant, etc, etc...non-denominational doesn't mean protestant - AFAIK it means non-denominational - of no religious denomination at all.

I don't believe there are any schools left which cater specifically for one religion (other than the RC separatism of course :rolleyes:) but then that is exactly what I'd like here, multi-denominational education...I want my children to have access to Rabbis, Amans, Nuns, etc, etc as I want them to mix with children from other faiths & cultures. In this day & age surely it's not too much to ask?!

TempestSabre

You've experienced it first hand so I can't argue with that

The reason the're non-denominational could be rated to the splits that happened to the churches. I don't know too much about it. But it didn't happen recently. However none of this happened in Ireland.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-denominational

Ickle Magoo wrote:

...In this day & age surely it's not too much to ask?!

No but until recently hardly anyone asked so it wasn't an issue. Or at least I haven't heard of it being an issue till recent years. Which isn't the same I know. :cool: With with the immigration of recent years, and the decline of the RC church its obviously a growing issue now.

Ickle Magoo

I'm obviously using the wrong terms (again! ) - perhaps multi-denominational is the correct way of puting it...

I have only been in Ireland for 2yrs - but my husband is Irish born & bred. When we were discussing moving here he told me to watch out because the entire system was "backward"...his words - not mine...if he thought that it was backwards from his experience & he knew nothing had changed by 6/7yrs ago then surely the issue has been around a long time?

RainyDay

TempestSabre wrote:

Rathfarnham or Ranelagh are not a million miles away from leopardstown. The other partner in the couple, walks or uses the park and ride and get the Luas to Ranalegh? or father goes to Rathfarnham, then gets back on to the M50? Perhaps find a Parish school in the area with a syllabus that best matches your requirements?

Get real. Don't forget that you've told us that no-one needs to have 2 cars, so park-n-ride is out. Have you tried herding 2 toddlers across the Leopardstown roundabout at rush hour as part of the 30 minute walk from The Gallops to the Luas stop? Have you travelled on the Luas at rush hour recently? It's difficult enough for a fit & healthy adult like me. Trying to herd two young kids through the iPodded masses to exit the tram at Ranalagh would be extremely difficult. Have you tried travelling from Rathfarnham to the M50 at rush hour recently? Daddy would want to be dropping the kids off around 7.30 am if he has to be in work for 9. And have you any sensible explanation as to why a parent should have to go to such extreme steps to avoid indoctrination, when there is a local school within walking distance.

TempestSabre

Ickle Magoo wrote:

I'm obviously using the wrong terms (again! ) - perhaps multi-denominational is the correct way of puting it...

I have only been in Ireland for 2yrs - but my husband is Irish born & bred. When we were discussing moving here he told me to watch out because the entire system was "backward"...his words - not mine...if he thought that it was backwards from his experience & he knew nothing had changed by 6/7yrs ago then surely the issue has been around a long time?

I don't know. But for an example. There now more Polish speakers in Ireland than speak Irish. Hence we now have Polish masses and Polish sections in the Herald. That probably wasn't the case 6/7yrs ago. Big changes have happened in a relatively small time frame.

TempestSabre

RainyDay wrote:

Get real. Don't forget that you've told us that no-one needs to have 2 cars, so park-n-ride is out. Have you tried herding 2 toddlers across the Leopardstown roundabout at rush hour as part of the 30 minute walk from The Gallops to the Luas stop? Have you travelled on the Luas at rush hour recently? It's difficult enough for a fit & healthy adult like me. Trying to herd two young kids through the iPodded masses to exit the tram at Ranalagh would be extremely difficult. Have you tried travelling from Rathfarnham to the M50 at rush hour recently? Daddy would want to be dropping the kids off around 7.30 am if he has to be in work for 9. And have you any sensible explanation as to why a parent should have to go to such extreme steps to avoid indoctrination, when there is a local school within walking distance.

My reply was based on the problem you gave in the single post. I didn't realise it had to include every comment/criteria previously posted. Or new information not yet posted

Why live in a place that not near suitable schools, not near your job, and has insane traffic. Whats the sensible explanation for that?

Nevyn

People buy houses for many reasons, close to family affordiblity are two of them.
People change jobs a lot quicker then they move house.

TempestSabre

Thaedydal wrote:

People buy houses for many reasons, close to family affordiblity are two of them. People change jobs a lot quicker then they move house.

Indeed. But the compromise has to be sustainable.

ArthurDent

Press release from Educate Together last night (not yet up on their website - will post link when it is)

United Nations Committee on the Rights of the Child Supports Educate Together’s Case

This Autumn, The United Nations Committee on the Rights of the Child recommended to the Irish State that it promotes the establishment of non-denominational and multi-denominational schools. This formal recommendation re-enforced the recommendation of the UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination(CERD) that was issued last year.

This latest recommendation again underlines the United Nations organisation’s support of the case made by Educate Together. Two major committees of the UN have now examined this case and have supported it on clear human rights grounds.

RainyDay

TempestSabre wrote:

Why live in a place that not near suitable schools, not near your job, and has insane traffic. Whats the sensible explanation for that?

Yet again - get real. Have you tried picking and choosing the house/location you want to live in recently? Very few people get to choose their locations these days - they live wherever they can afford.

TempestSabre

RainyDay wrote:

Yet again - get real. Have you tried picking and choosing the house/location you want to live in recently? Very few people get to choose their locations these days - they live wherever they can afford.

I would have assumed (perhaps wrongly) thats theres cheaper housing than Leopardstown? Therefore you'd have other options.

RainyDay

The issue (as you well know) isn't just about Leopardstown. Leopardstown was just one example.

Is there any good reason why the state should be encouraging religious descrimination by providing funding for schools who have a bias towards certain religions?

TempestSabre

RainyDay wrote:

The issue (as you well know) isn't just about Leopardstown. Leopardstown was just one example.

Is there any good reason why the state should be encouraging religious descrimination by providing funding for schools who have a bias towards certain religions?

Just a poor example then.

Is there a good reason why the state should not fund schools of different religious denominations?

The Government does not require but does permit religious instruction in public schools. Most primary and secondary schools are denominational, and their boards of management were governed partially by trustees within the Catholic Church or, in some cases, the Church of Ireland. Under the terms of the constitution, the Department of Education must and does provide equal funding to schools of different religious denominations, including Islamic and Jewish schools. Although religious instruction is an integral part of the curriculum, parents may exempt their children from such instruction.

In 2003, the Equality Authority published a booklet stating that church-linked schools are permitted legally to refuse to admit a student who is not of that religion, providing the school can prove that the refusal is essential to the maintenance of the "ethos" of the school (i.e., too many Catholics in a Muslim school could prevent the school from having a Muslim "ethos"). However, there were no reports of any children being refused admission to any school for this reason.

For no particular reason at all, I quote the following...

The country is overwhelmingly Roman Catholic. According to official government statistics based on the 2002 census, the religious affiliation of the population was 88.4 percent Catholic (3,462,606), 2.9 percent Church of Ireland (115,611), 0.55 percent Christian (unspecified), 0.52 percent Presbyterian (20,582), 0.25 percent Methodist (10,033), 0.49 percent Muslim (19,147), and less than 0.1 percent Jewish (1,790). Approximately 5.5 percent (217,358) of the population stated no preference or adherence to a particular religion.

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2006/71386.htm

Nevyn

well that is just bollix on the 5.5 % straight off.
ppf then again it is a usa govermental site.

TempestSabre

Thaedydal wrote:

well that is just bollix on the 5.5 % straight off.
ppf then again it is a usa govermental site.

True. WMD anyone?

That said its a 2002 survey and I assume its from the offical Irish Govt figures though. Lots of recent immigrants are RC too. So who knows.

RainyDay

TempestSabre wrote:

Just a poor example then.

Is there a good reason why the state should not fund schools of different religious denominations?

For no particular reason at all, I quote the following...

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2006/71386.htm

The census statistics you quote are meaningless. How many of the 'overwhelming' percentage of Roman Catholics were just baptised to get them into the local school? A more relevant statistic can be found at http://www.ue2004.ie/templates/standard.asp?sNavlocator=3,242,278

Proportion of population who attend Mass weekly: 48%. Mass attendance in Ireland is continuing to fall, but 60% of Irish Catholics say they have a personal relationship with Jesus.
Source: Irish Marketing Surveys http://www.imsl.ie

So again, any good reason for the state to fund religious discrimination?

TempestSabre

RainyDay wrote:

The census statistics you quote are meaningless. How many of the 'overwhelming' percentage of Roman Catholics were just baptised to get them into the local school? A more relevant statistic can be found at http://www.ue2004.ie/templates/standard.asp?sNavlocator=3,242,278

I only posted them for fun. Just because people don't go to mass doesn't meant they are not RC. But I wonder how many of the people saying they have a personal relationship with Jesus are preschoolers who were forced to be baptised to attend school? Since you get people of other religions and of no religion in local schools and often then don't attend RE I always assumed you don't need to be baptised to get into a local school.

Or do you think people are running around baptising all in sight to get into schools? In my area all you have to be is a certain age and that is it.

RainyDay wrote:

So again, any good reason for the state to fund religious discrimination?

Its historic its only funding the established schooling system. It existed before the foundation of the State. Its never got off its ar$e to do anything else about it. Besides theres never been much pressure to change it till recently. Though an awful lot of recent immigrants are actually RC, so may end up slowing the decline of the RC church here.

the_syco

Thaedydal wrote:

It is broke, when you are looking at a 200 children with out a place for school when stepember starts it is broken.

Over the weekend, I'll look for the amount of kids without a school to go to, due to lack of schools.

As for the minorties, which have their own schools: do they allow christain kids in? Always wondered about that.

Nevyn

Educate together is multidenominational and accepts all children reguardless of creed or lack there of.
As for the 1 jewish school and the two islamic schools I do not know what thier enrollment policies are.

as for lack of school places.

http://www.joanburton.ie/?postid=353
http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1015326&issue_id=9535
http://www.into.ie/ROI/Publications/PressReleases/2006/SchoolBuildings14806/
http://eastmeath.org/blog/?p=55


Basically there is a crisis with our school and the dept of education needs to step up and take over the resposibilty for the schools.

http://eastmeath.org/blog/?p=79

OTK

OK, to list the reasons given for why state funded primary schools should be allowed to choose students based on religion:

• the churches own the buildings
• the churches have done a lot of good in education in the past and should be allowed to continue
• most people in the country are nominally catholic so it makes sense that most schooling is segregated on religious grounds
• teaching children religion outside of normal school hours would be a pain for religious parents
• the law allows the churches to behave in this way
• schools such as educate together exist that don't select based on religion

any that I've missed?

ArthurDent

the_syco wrote:

Over the weekend, I'll look for the amount of kids without a school to go to, due to lack of schools.

As for the minorties, which have their own schools: do they allow christain kids in? Always wondered about that.

Well according to website - their enrolemnt policy is "first come first served" - so technically you could not be descriminated against on the basis of being a christian or other non-muslim religon. In practise I doubt that non-muslims would be attracted to school so it probably isn't an issue.
http://www.islaminireland.com/islaminireland2/information/historyEducation.html

TempestSabre

TempestSabre wrote:

.....Personally I think the bigger problem is the lack of school spaces of ANY kind. ....

I made the point about lack of space earlier. I still think its the bigger issue.

TempestSabre

ArthurDent wrote:

Well according to website - their enrolemnt policy is "first come first served" - so technically you could not be descriminated against on the basis of being a christian or other non-muslim religon. In practise I doubt that non-muslims would be attracted to school so it probably isn't an issue.
http://www.islaminireland.com/islaminireland2/information/historyEducation.html

Based on the posts in this thread, people will be attracted to it if its the closest school to them. They can ask not to be included in the RE.

Ickle Magoo

Listening to local radio last night about this very topic...

They said that at the mo 1 in 10 people in Ireland are not of Irish decent & by the year 2015 that figure is set to rise to 1 in 5 :eek:...makes you think. It also pointed out than in order to maintain a growing & successful economy, the country has to provide migrant workers & their families with facilities that ensure the standard of living remains high enough to warrent the migrant remaining in Ireland & that updating the Irish educating system to provide multi-cultural education to cater for all faiths would benefit the entire country. It was an interesting discussion...

We (my husband & I) want to send our kids to the nearest school - but if that school goes against all our spirituality & ideology then we feel we have no option but to pick a school further away. That has huge ramafications for the whole family, where we live, driving, jobs, etc, etc. We all work as hard as each other, why should our life be made more difficult because the church historically practices secular schooling here? Ireland needs to move with the times.

We are seriously considering moving back to the UK to have our most basic of family needs fulfilled. My husband was contacted while we were living in the UK & offered a job here. Ireland is screaming out for professionals of all variety & I know a good few other people who have been lured here on the same promises of big wages & great opportunities. If Ireland does not give migrants the the standard of life - including education for their children - that they want, then they won't move here or at least won't stay here. That is only going to damage the Irish economy & the future prosperity of the population here. What were those stats on the news the other night? Ireland will have the highest number of under 15's in Europe by 2010?

It strikes me that a lot of what goes on here is based on looking backwards & clinging on to the past with grim determination rather than looking at the future potential of a situation & moving forward to embrace that...:(

TempestSabre

Ickle Magoo wrote:

...why should our life be made more difficult because the church historically practices secular schooling here? Ireland needs to move with the times. ...

I thought secular was the absence of religion? http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/secular

The RC church does the same thing everywhere, not just in Ireland. So thats not particular to Ireland. However the difference in Ireland is that the State has really dropped the ball at anticipating demand, and keeping pace with the school places required of any type. So I assume your problem is really with the State and not the RC church. Besides this govt is not really concerned with quality of life, just generating money.

Ickle Magoo

Ach, you know what I meant..I missed out a non-

Of course I have no problem with the RC Church - they are only doing as much as the state has allowed. Anyway, if I was to demand religion is banned, I'd be as bad!

Quality of life for the people who live here & generating money are related...with an economy that requires a high percentage of migrant workers to maintain - the government d@mn well should be concerned. :mad:

ArthurDent

TempestSabre wrote:

The RC church does the same thing everywhere, not just in Ireland. So thats not particular to Ireland. However the difference in Ireland is that the State has really dropped the ball at anticipating demand, and keeping pace with the school places required of any type. So I assume your problem is really with the State and not the RC church. Besides this govt is not really concerned with quality of life, just generating money.

I agree with you 100% - it isn't the RC oir any other denominations fault - the fault lies solely with our government (and previous ones). I have no problem with denominational schools - although I don't think they should be state funded. We (through the Govt) should grow up and accept the responsibility of providing education for all our children on an equal basis - it ain't going to happen, but it would be great.

TempestSabre

Ickle Magoo wrote:

....Quality of life for the people who live here & generating money are related...with an economy that requires a high percentage of migrant workers to maintain - the government d@mn well should be concerned. :mad:

Profits maybe, quality of life I'm not so sure. Quality of everything seems to have decreased in recent years. The only thing thats increased is the cost.

Anyway the point is the Govt and the State is the cause of the failings of the education system. Not a church.

Nevyn

I never said otherwise.
The government should have redressed the balance long ago.

RainyDay

TempestSabre wrote:

Since you get people of other religions and of no religion in local schools and often then don't attend RE I always assumed you don't need to be baptised to get into a local school.

Or do you think people are running around baptising all in sight to get into schools? In my area all you have to be is a certain age and that is it.

As has been explained repeatedly on this thread, the discrimination is done by prioritisation. So in theory, you don't have to be of a certain religion to get into the school. In practice where the school is over-subscribed, as is the case with many schools in Dublin and the surrounding regions, those of other/no religion will be so far down the list that they just won't get in.

Indeed, I know of many parents (including myself) who have baptised their children for the sole purpose of ensuring eligibility for schools.

TempestSabre wrote:

Its historic its only funding the established schooling system. It existed before the foundation of the State. Its never got off its ar$e to do anything else about it. Besides theres never been much pressure to change it till recently. Though an awful lot of recent immigrants are actually RC, so may end up slowing the decline of the RC church here.

Is there any data that supports your comments about recent immigrants? In summary, your response to the 'any good reason' question is 'because we've always done it that way', which is never a good response to any question. You're right, insofar as the state has never got its act together to address this issue. Our railways were originally built by private companies/individuals in the 1800's, but the state had the foresight to take on/nationalise these companies to ensure fair access to the infrastructure. Is there any chance that a future government will have the balls to stand up to the religious bodies and take back control (or even just take back funding) for the schools?

OTK wrote:

OK, to list the reasons given for why state funded primary schools should be allowed to choose students based on religion:

• the churches own the buildings
• the churches have done a lot of good in education in the past and should be allowed to continue
• most people in the country are nominally catholic so it makes sense that most schooling is segregated on religious grounds
• teaching children religion outside of normal school hours would be a pain for religious parents
• the law allows the churches to behave in this way
• schools such as educate together exist that don't select based on religion

any that I've missed?

Could this be the same OTK who was complaining bitterly about religious discrimination in schools here? Seems like somebody has had a bit of a Pauline conversion. But anyway, let's look at the issues you raise.

Yes, the church have done a lot of good in the past, particularly in education those who couldn't afford to pay for an education (when free state education was not available). But the churches have also done lots of evils in the past, so you can't look at the positive without looking at the negative too. IMHO, the past isn't that relevant. Either it is right or wrong to allow schools to discriminate on religion (in a way that no other body or organisation could legally do). For me, it is just plain wrong.

You make a bit leap in jumping from 'nominally Catholic' to 'segregated schooling'. Take a few steps back there and explain further why segregated schooling is a good thing. Maybe have a think about how well it has worked out in Northern Ireland before answering.

Educate Together schools are few and far between, and many of those that do existing are crying out for funding for decent buildings. There is no democratic process that allows parents to ensure that the state funds those schools which meet the needs of the parents. The incumbent operators (the religious bodies) maintain control solely for historic reasons. This has to change.

Ickle Magoo

TempestSabre wrote:

Profits maybe, quality of life I'm not so sure. Quality of everything seems to have decreased in recent years. The only thing thats increased is the cost.

Anyway the point is the Govt and the State is the cause of the failings of the education system. Not a church.

I agree completely - I don't think anyone holds the Church responsible for taking up the slack where the State has failed...if anything they have done a huge service to people living in Ireland. I think the point most folks are making is that in 2006, it's rediculous that the Church is STILL having to take up the slack as the State turns a blind eye to what the country has been crying out for, for years.

No-one is denying there is a high percentage of RC parents wanting their children to attend RC schools, no-one is suggesting that RC schools should be banned or that they should be forced to water down their religious teachings to appease non-Catholic children that are forced, out of lack of other choices, to attend them. I think what most people want is a democratic education system whereby those who wish their children to attend religious schools can & those who wish their children to attend secular schools have that as a viable option.

It's my own personal wish that religion - other than general education on all faiths - should be removed from schools. I want my children to be open-minded, have multi-cultural & multi-faith awareness without judgement. That is my own wish but I would settle just for a fair system that does not discriminate against my children & gives them the same opportunities afforded to other children baptised into the RC faith. It's so sad that people with that line of thinking are considered so threatening.

My in-laws have discussed at length the faults of the Irish education system & were aware of them 20yrs ago - to say it is somehow a new concept that a particular denomination should not be running the educational programme of generations of children, is simply not true in my experience. Many people for many, many years have been campaigning for change, it's only now that their work is becoming more obvious to the general public. It's such a shame that so many people are balking at the thought of progress - but perhaps inevitable given the education system they went through & they are, ironically, prime examples of the very reason why change is necessary.

I've spoken to many non-Irish about the problems we have with the education system here & told them of the suggestions made that children aged 4/5 onwards always have the option of being segregated & put out into the corridor or another room while particular religious teaching goes on. The response is absolute horror & disgust that anyone would think that is an acceptable alternative to secular education or the State intervening to take back control of the education of future generations.

TempestSabre

RainyDay wrote:

As has been explained repeatedly on this thread, the discrimination is done by prioritisation. So in theory, you don't have to be of a certain religion to get into the school. In practice where the school is over-subscribed, as is the case with many schools in Dublin and the surrounding regions, those of other/no religion will be so far down the list that they just won't get in.

Thats not how it works in my area. Its specific to each area and the school board thats there.

RainyDay wrote:

Indeed, I know of many parents (including myself) who have baptised their children for the sole purpose of ensuring eligibility for schools.

As has been discussed before, and in other threads here, its not usually a requirement.

RainyDay wrote:

Is there any data that supports your comments about recent immigrants? In summary,

No data. Just the increase in non english masses around and the increase in other churches setting up all over.

RainyDay wrote:

your response to the 'any good reason' question is 'because we've always done it that way', which is never a good response to any question.

As a silly question....its only the answer to the question you keep asking. A more interesting question would be should it be the same moving forward.

RainyDay wrote:

...You're right, insofar as the state has never got its act together to address this issue. Our railways were originally built by private companies/individuals in the 1800's, but the state had the foresight to take on/nationalise these companies to ensure fair access to the infrastructure. Is there any chance that a future government will have the balls to stand up to the religious bodies and take back control (or even just take back funding) for the schools?

Thanks. I didn't realise the state of the rail service was a shining example.

RainyDay wrote:

Yes, the church have done a lot of good in the past, particularly in education those who couldn't afford to pay for an education (when free state education was not available). But the churches have also done lots of evils in the past, so you can't look at the positive without looking at the negative too. IMHO, the past isn't that relevant. Either it is right or wrong to allow schools to discriminate on religion (in a way that no other body or organisation could legally do). For me, it is just plain wrong.

How is it not relevant. The past has result in the situation we've got today. You can't learn with out looking back at the mistakes that were made in the past. The schools aren't discriminating, they are allowed to set up their own schools. The issue is no other schools were set up. That the fault of the other religions, and the govt. Of course there wasn't much demand in the past, and supply needs to meet demand. Which it did. it just doesn't anymore.

RainyDay wrote:

You make a bit leap in jumping from 'nominally Catholic' to 'segregated schooling'. Take a few steps back there and explain further why segregated schooling is a good thing. Maybe have a think about how well it has worked out in Northern Ireland before answering.

You might as well argue that private schools are a bad thing. There will always be religious schools, private schools and non religious states shools. Theres just not enough of the latter.

RainyDay wrote:

Educate Together schools are few and far between, and many of those that do existing are crying out for funding for decent buildings. There is no democratic process that allows parents to ensure that the state funds those schools which meet the needs of the parents.

Theres 4 in my immediate area so its not a problem for me. But then I checkout the schools before I decide to live where I am. There is a democratic process. You vote your govt in and they decide all of this. You should make this an issue for the election. In our area the lack of school places is a huge issue and is already on the agenda of all the local parties.

The govt does partially fund the Educate Together schools anyway, though not enough. Of course you can opt out of RE in other schools aswell so Educate Together is not the only option as you are suggesting.

RainyDay wrote:

The incumbent operators (the religious bodies) maintain control solely for historic reasons. This has to change.

So its is historic now? I thought it was only for discrimination? :rolleyes:

Ickle Magoo

Tempest Sabre, If you don't mind me asking...what's your beef with secular education? Do you think people who are not religious should be forced to send their children to religious schools & be segregated from their classmates? Do you think the system as it stands is perfect & no changes should be made? Your area has a particular selection process so everyone else telling you their problems are making them up?! I'm not sure what stance you are arguing....

TempestSabre

What specific organisations (other then the schools themselves) are campaigning for secular schools for years. ?

Ickle Magoo wrote:

....
I've spoken to many non-Irish about the problems we have with the education system here & told them of the suggestions made that children aged 4/5 onwards always have the option of being segregated & put out into the corridor or another room while particular religious teaching goes on. The response is absolute horror & disgust that anyone would think that is an acceptable alternative to secular education or the State intervening to take back control of the education of future generations.

Personally I think its no different to those that don't want to do Irish or some other subject and do something else instead. Why is it horrific? But what else can you do in a religious school. Its not going to stop being a religious school is it?

Its not an alternative to secular schools or the govt funding more non religious schools. Thats a completely different issue. Thats a political issue not one of discrimination.

One option is that the state buys the schools, & land and then funds it 100%. Which will probably end up happening as the RC church no longer has the resources to cope with the demand for schools. Or the size of its own parishes anymore. Even if that happen theres still not enough school places without building new schools. It will become an election issue though.

Ickle Magoo

I didn't say specific organisations...if you ask older generations about the education system, you will find those who don't aprove of the system in place - either that or my in-laws are complete radicals!

So what system do you want to see in place? Everyone here has specified a preference & you seem to be arguing against everyone & picking up on any spelling or gramatical errors en route - what is your stand point?

TempestSabre

Ickle Magoo wrote:

Tempest Sabre, If you don't mind me asking...what's your beef with secular education? Do you think people who are not religious should be forced to send their children to religious schools & be segregated from their classmates? Do you think the system as it stands is perfect & no changes should be made? Your area has a particular selection process so everyone else telling you their problems are making them up?! I'm not sure what stance you are arguing....

I don't have a problem with either. But you seem to by laying this problem at the foot of the RC church. They didn't create this problem, the state and sucessive govts did. As did the voting public who've not made it an issue for the politicians. A lot of people seem to jump on these threads like a tabloid newspaper with senstionalism like descrimination and indoctrination etc. Missing the real issue. Which is lack of school places of any type and the failure of the Govt to anticiapate the obvious demand. Obvious because of massive housing over development - shockingly bad planning, massive immigration, the wane of the RC and its resources. It would have been obvious to any one. We've been going on about it for years in our area and we've struggled with it for decades. But now it reaching crisis levels due to the govt mismanagement. Its something they are good at. Coasting the wave of celtic tiger and doing very little with the resources at their disposal.

Ickle Magoo

I agree with all of that - as I said earlier...

I agree completely - I don't think anyone holds the Church responsible for taking up the slack where the State has failed...if anything they have done a huge service to people living in Ireland. I think the point most folks are making is that in 2006, it's rediculous that the Church is STILL having to take up the slack as the State turns a blind eye to what the country has been crying out for, for years.

I think we are singing off the same hymn sheet really...

I think to deny a degree of indoctrination is enjoyed by the RC church in religious schools here or the fact that the majority of RC schools do [legally] discriminate against non-Catholics is slightly odd when the overwhelming evidence points to just that but other than those points, I agree wholeheartedly with your last post. Well said!

TempestSabre

Ickle Magoo wrote:

...
I think to deny a degree of indoctrination is enjoyed by the RC church in religious schools here or the fact that the majority of RC schools do [legally] discriminate against non-Catholics is slightly odd when the overwhelming evidence points to just that but other than those points, I agree wholeheartedly with your last post. Well said!

Part of the RC faith is to spread itself. Has been since day 1. A church is entitled to have its own schools etc. Therefore who should be providing these non catholic schools. Other religions and the state/govt. So its these that are discriminating by not providing an alternative. Not the RC church.

Ickle Magoo

So neither indoctrination nor discrimination are being sensationalised? They are both live & well - and perfectly acceptable & understandable apparently :eek:

If you want to consider yourself the national education system & build & run schools from the publics purse-strings, then you must accept the nations children - the fact they are failing to do so has led to this whole discussion...talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face! :rolleyes:

I agree the church should have schools if they want, whether they should be funded out of public coffers when they fail to offer a public education, to the public as a whole, & teach about every religion in the Irish public domain, is another thing.

TempestSabre

Ickle Magoo wrote:

So neither indoctrination nor discrimination are being sensationalised? They are both live & well - and perfectly acceptable & understandable apparently :eek:

Thats what religions do

Ickle Magoo wrote:

If you want to consider yourself the national education system & build & run schools from the publics purse-strings, then you must accept the nations children - the fact they are failing to do so has led to this whole discussion...talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face! :rolleyes:

Where is that the mandate of the RC church?

Ickle Magoo wrote:

I agree the church should have schools if they want, whether they should be funded out of public coffers when they fail to offer a public education, to the public as a whole, & teach about every religion in the Irish public domain, is another thing.

Actually that is the precise thing. For the majoirty of the population they do offer the required education. However the rest of the population isn't being provided for, and the demographic is changing. Its still the majority though. The Stat is failing the rest. The RC is providing for its own. As its entitled to.

Still interested about those groups campaigning for secular schools for years.

Ickle Magoo

TempestSabre wrote:

Still interested about those groups campaigning for secular schools for years.

From the ET website...

Educate Together is the representative organisation of the Educate Together schools and associations throughout the Republic of Ireland. It owes its origins in the movement to establish new multi-denominational primary schools, which emerged in the late 1970s and early 1980s. By 1984, when Educate Together was established, there were three schools and the organisation acted as their co-ordinating body. Since then the movement has grown considerably.

Also, don't forget the large chunk of Irish parents who want their children in ET schools. Presumably when the ET ethos was getting off the ground in the 70's, the percentage of immigrant parents were fairly low? My local ET school is made up of 40% RC children despite their being 4 RC schools in the area. The present education system is undemocratic, archiac and as far as I'm concerned, breeds an unhealthy contempt for minorities or anyone considered different from what the majority have been taught as the norm. There is an unhealthy belief that minorities should put up & shut up, force themselves to go against beliefs & faiths, or even move jobs & house so all the "other"/non-religious people can be herded together in some kind of sectarian/divisive area, all while the status quo is vehemently defended.

The United Nations Committee on the Rights of the Child recommended to the Irish State that it promotes the establishment of non-denominational and multi-denominational schools. This formal recommendation re-enforced the recommendation of the UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination(CERD) that was issued last year.

This latest recommendation again underlines the United Nations organisation’s support of the case made by Educate Together. Two major committees of the UN have now examined this case and have supported it on clear human rights grounds.

This should be downright embarrassing rather than a source of pride worth hanging onto!

As any econimist worth his salt will tell you, Ireland desperately needs domestic & migrant workers as well as both Irish & non-Irish professionals to both move here & to stay here, in order to maintain the levels of economic growth currently being enjoyed. Minorities should be made welcome in Ireland - the country should be doing all it can to keep people living & working here. I too am astounded at the short-sightedness of some people & politicians. I'm flabbergasted, shocked & disappointed - probably frustrated more than anything - that anyone can be so blinded & prejudiced that they can't see the innevitable if things don't change & change faster.

You agree that more secular schools are required, you agree the State needs to do something drastic to redress the imbalance created by their inaction, you were unaware that there has been campaigning for secular/multi-denominational schools for many years & you don't seem to see anything wrong with discrimination, indoctrination & divisionary education - so I don't think there is really anything further I can say other than...here's to progress! *raises cup of coffee*