New poll religion in schools

TempestSabre

You've experienced it first hand so I can't argue with that

The reason the're non-denominational could be rated to the splits that happened to the churches. I don't know too much about it. But it didn't happen recently. However none of this happened in Ireland.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-denominational

Ickle Magoo wrote:

...In this day & age surely it's not too much to ask?!

No but until recently hardly anyone asked so it wasn't an issue. Or at least I haven't heard of it being an issue till recent years. Which isn't the same I know. :cool: With with the immigration of recent years, and the decline of the RC church its obviously a growing issue now.

Ickle Magoo

I'm obviously using the wrong terms (again! ) - perhaps multi-denominational is the correct way of puting it...

I have only been in Ireland for 2yrs - but my husband is Irish born & bred. When we were discussing moving here he told me to watch out because the entire system was "backward"...his words - not mine...if he thought that it was backwards from his experience & he knew nothing had changed by 6/7yrs ago then surely the issue has been around a long time?

RainyDay

TempestSabre wrote:

Rathfarnham or Ranelagh are not a million miles away from leopardstown. The other partner in the couple, walks or uses the park and ride and get the Luas to Ranalegh? or father goes to Rathfarnham, then gets back on to the M50? Perhaps find a Parish school in the area with a syllabus that best matches your requirements?

Get real. Don't forget that you've told us that no-one needs to have 2 cars, so park-n-ride is out. Have you tried herding 2 toddlers across the Leopardstown roundabout at rush hour as part of the 30 minute walk from The Gallops to the Luas stop? Have you travelled on the Luas at rush hour recently? It's difficult enough for a fit & healthy adult like me. Trying to herd two young kids through the iPodded masses to exit the tram at Ranalagh would be extremely difficult. Have you tried travelling from Rathfarnham to the M50 at rush hour recently? Daddy would want to be dropping the kids off around 7.30 am if he has to be in work for 9. And have you any sensible explanation as to why a parent should have to go to such extreme steps to avoid indoctrination, when there is a local school within walking distance.

TempestSabre

Ickle Magoo wrote:

I'm obviously using the wrong terms (again! ) - perhaps multi-denominational is the correct way of puting it...

I have only been in Ireland for 2yrs - but my husband is Irish born & bred. When we were discussing moving here he told me to watch out because the entire system was "backward"...his words - not mine...if he thought that it was backwards from his experience & he knew nothing had changed by 6/7yrs ago then surely the issue has been around a long time?

I don't know. But for an example. There now more Polish speakers in Ireland than speak Irish. Hence we now have Polish masses and Polish sections in the Herald. That probably wasn't the case 6/7yrs ago. Big changes have happened in a relatively small time frame.

TempestSabre

RainyDay wrote:

Get real. Don't forget that you've told us that no-one needs to have 2 cars, so park-n-ride is out. Have you tried herding 2 toddlers across the Leopardstown roundabout at rush hour as part of the 30 minute walk from The Gallops to the Luas stop? Have you travelled on the Luas at rush hour recently? It's difficult enough for a fit & healthy adult like me. Trying to herd two young kids through the iPodded masses to exit the tram at Ranalagh would be extremely difficult. Have you tried travelling from Rathfarnham to the M50 at rush hour recently? Daddy would want to be dropping the kids off around 7.30 am if he has to be in work for 9. And have you any sensible explanation as to why a parent should have to go to such extreme steps to avoid indoctrination, when there is a local school within walking distance.

My reply was based on the problem you gave in the single post. I didn't realise it had to include every comment/criteria previously posted. Or new information not yet posted

Why live in a place that not near suitable schools, not near your job, and has insane traffic. Whats the sensible explanation for that?

Nevyn

People buy houses for many reasons, close to family affordiblity are two of them.
People change jobs a lot quicker then they move house.

TempestSabre

Thaedydal wrote:

People buy houses for many reasons, close to family affordiblity are two of them. People change jobs a lot quicker then they move house.

Indeed. But the compromise has to be sustainable.

ArthurDent

Press release from Educate Together last night (not yet up on their website - will post link when it is)

United Nations Committee on the Rights of the Child Supports Educate Together’s Case

This Autumn, The United Nations Committee on the Rights of the Child recommended to the Irish State that it promotes the establishment of non-denominational and multi-denominational schools. This formal recommendation re-enforced the recommendation of the UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination(CERD) that was issued last year.

This latest recommendation again underlines the United Nations organisation’s support of the case made by Educate Together. Two major committees of the UN have now examined this case and have supported it on clear human rights grounds.

RainyDay

TempestSabre wrote:

Why live in a place that not near suitable schools, not near your job, and has insane traffic. Whats the sensible explanation for that?

Yet again - get real. Have you tried picking and choosing the house/location you want to live in recently? Very few people get to choose their locations these days - they live wherever they can afford.

TempestSabre

RainyDay wrote:

Yet again - get real. Have you tried picking and choosing the house/location you want to live in recently? Very few people get to choose their locations these days - they live wherever they can afford.

I would have assumed (perhaps wrongly) thats theres cheaper housing than Leopardstown? Therefore you'd have other options.

RainyDay

The issue (as you well know) isn't just about Leopardstown. Leopardstown was just one example.

Is there any good reason why the state should be encouraging religious descrimination by providing funding for schools who have a bias towards certain religions?

TempestSabre

RainyDay wrote:

The issue (as you well know) isn't just about Leopardstown. Leopardstown was just one example.

Is there any good reason why the state should be encouraging religious descrimination by providing funding for schools who have a bias towards certain religions?

Just a poor example then.

Is there a good reason why the state should not fund schools of different religious denominations?

The Government does not require but does permit religious instruction in public schools. Most primary and secondary schools are denominational, and their boards of management were governed partially by trustees within the Catholic Church or, in some cases, the Church of Ireland. Under the terms of the constitution, the Department of Education must and does provide equal funding to schools of different religious denominations, including Islamic and Jewish schools. Although religious instruction is an integral part of the curriculum, parents may exempt their children from such instruction.

In 2003, the Equality Authority published a booklet stating that church-linked schools are permitted legally to refuse to admit a student who is not of that religion, providing the school can prove that the refusal is essential to the maintenance of the "ethos" of the school (i.e., too many Catholics in a Muslim school could prevent the school from having a Muslim "ethos"). However, there were no reports of any children being refused admission to any school for this reason.

For no particular reason at all, I quote the following...

The country is overwhelmingly Roman Catholic. According to official government statistics based on the 2002 census, the religious affiliation of the population was 88.4 percent Catholic (3,462,606), 2.9 percent Church of Ireland (115,611), 0.55 percent Christian (unspecified), 0.52 percent Presbyterian (20,582), 0.25 percent Methodist (10,033), 0.49 percent Muslim (19,147), and less than 0.1 percent Jewish (1,790). Approximately 5.5 percent (217,358) of the population stated no preference or adherence to a particular religion.

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2006/71386.htm

Nevyn

well that is just bollix on the 5.5 % straight off.
ppf then again it is a usa govermental site.

TempestSabre

Thaedydal wrote:

well that is just bollix on the 5.5 % straight off.
ppf then again it is a usa govermental site.

True. WMD anyone?

That said its a 2002 survey and I assume its from the offical Irish Govt figures though. Lots of recent immigrants are RC too. So who knows.

RainyDay

TempestSabre wrote:

Just a poor example then.

Is there a good reason why the state should not fund schools of different religious denominations?

For no particular reason at all, I quote the following...

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2006/71386.htm

The census statistics you quote are meaningless. How many of the 'overwhelming' percentage of Roman Catholics were just baptised to get them into the local school? A more relevant statistic can be found at http://www.ue2004.ie/templates/standard.asp?sNavlocator=3,242,278

Proportion of population who attend Mass weekly: 48%. Mass attendance in Ireland is continuing to fall, but 60% of Irish Catholics say they have a personal relationship with Jesus.
Source: Irish Marketing Surveys http://www.imsl.ie

So again, any good reason for the state to fund religious discrimination?

TempestSabre

RainyDay wrote:

The census statistics you quote are meaningless. How many of the 'overwhelming' percentage of Roman Catholics were just baptised to get them into the local school? A more relevant statistic can be found at http://www.ue2004.ie/templates/standard.asp?sNavlocator=3,242,278

I only posted them for fun. Just because people don't go to mass doesn't meant they are not RC. But I wonder how many of the people saying they have a personal relationship with Jesus are preschoolers who were forced to be baptised to attend school? Since you get people of other religions and of no religion in local schools and often then don't attend RE I always assumed you don't need to be baptised to get into a local school.

Or do you think people are running around baptising all in sight to get into schools? In my area all you have to be is a certain age and that is it.

RainyDay wrote:

So again, any good reason for the state to fund religious discrimination?

Its historic its only funding the established schooling system. It existed before the foundation of the State. Its never got off its ar$e to do anything else about it. Besides theres never been much pressure to change it till recently. Though an awful lot of recent immigrants are actually RC, so may end up slowing the decline of the RC church here.

the_syco

Thaedydal wrote:

It is broke, when you are looking at a 200 children with out a place for school when stepember starts it is broken.

Over the weekend, I'll look for the amount of kids without a school to go to, due to lack of schools.

As for the minorties, which have their own schools: do they allow christain kids in? Always wondered about that.

Nevyn

Educate together is multidenominational and accepts all children reguardless of creed or lack there of.
As for the 1 jewish school and the two islamic schools I do not know what thier enrollment policies are.

as for lack of school places.

http://www.joanburton.ie/?postid=353
http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1015326&issue_id=9535
http://www.into.ie/ROI/Publications/PressReleases/2006/SchoolBuildings14806/
http://eastmeath.org/blog/?p=55


Basically there is a crisis with our school and the dept of education needs to step up and take over the resposibilty for the schools.

http://eastmeath.org/blog/?p=79

OTK

OK, to list the reasons given for why state funded primary schools should be allowed to choose students based on religion:

• the churches own the buildings
• the churches have done a lot of good in education in the past and should be allowed to continue
• most people in the country are nominally catholic so it makes sense that most schooling is segregated on religious grounds
• teaching children religion outside of normal school hours would be a pain for religious parents
• the law allows the churches to behave in this way
• schools such as educate together exist that don't select based on religion

any that I've missed?

ArthurDent

the_syco wrote:

Over the weekend, I'll look for the amount of kids without a school to go to, due to lack of schools.

As for the minorties, which have their own schools: do they allow christain kids in? Always wondered about that.

Well according to website - their enrolemnt policy is "first come first served" - so technically you could not be descriminated against on the basis of being a christian or other non-muslim religon. In practise I doubt that non-muslims would be attracted to school so it probably isn't an issue.
http://www.islaminireland.com/islaminireland2/information/historyEducation.html

TempestSabre

TempestSabre wrote:

.....Personally I think the bigger problem is the lack of school spaces of ANY kind. ....

I made the point about lack of space earlier. I still think its the bigger issue.

TempestSabre

ArthurDent wrote:

Well according to website - their enrolemnt policy is "first come first served" - so technically you could not be descriminated against on the basis of being a christian or other non-muslim religon. In practise I doubt that non-muslims would be attracted to school so it probably isn't an issue.
http://www.islaminireland.com/islaminireland2/information/historyEducation.html

Based on the posts in this thread, people will be attracted to it if its the closest school to them. They can ask not to be included in the RE.

Ickle Magoo

Listening to local radio last night about this very topic...

They said that at the mo 1 in 10 people in Ireland are not of Irish decent & by the year 2015 that figure is set to rise to 1 in 5 :eek:...makes you think. It also pointed out than in order to maintain a growing & successful economy, the country has to provide migrant workers & their families with facilities that ensure the standard of living remains high enough to warrent the migrant remaining in Ireland & that updating the Irish educating system to provide multi-cultural education to cater for all faiths would benefit the entire country. It was an interesting discussion...

We (my husband & I) want to send our kids to the nearest school - but if that school goes against all our spirituality & ideology then we feel we have no option but to pick a school further away. That has huge ramafications for the whole family, where we live, driving, jobs, etc, etc. We all work as hard as each other, why should our life be made more difficult because the church historically practices secular schooling here? Ireland needs to move with the times.

We are seriously considering moving back to the UK to have our most basic of family needs fulfilled. My husband was contacted while we were living in the UK & offered a job here. Ireland is screaming out for professionals of all variety & I know a good few other people who have been lured here on the same promises of big wages & great opportunities. If Ireland does not give migrants the the standard of life - including education for their children - that they want, then they won't move here or at least won't stay here. That is only going to damage the Irish economy & the future prosperity of the population here. What were those stats on the news the other night? Ireland will have the highest number of under 15's in Europe by 2010?

It strikes me that a lot of what goes on here is based on looking backwards & clinging on to the past with grim determination rather than looking at the future potential of a situation & moving forward to embrace that...:(

TempestSabre

Ickle Magoo wrote:

...why should our life be made more difficult because the church historically practices secular schooling here? Ireland needs to move with the times. ...

I thought secular was the absence of religion? http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/secular

The RC church does the same thing everywhere, not just in Ireland. So thats not particular to Ireland. However the difference in Ireland is that the State has really dropped the ball at anticipating demand, and keeping pace with the school places required of any type. So I assume your problem is really with the State and not the RC church. Besides this govt is not really concerned with quality of life, just generating money.

Ickle Magoo

Ach, you know what I meant..I missed out a non-

Of course I have no problem with the RC Church - they are only doing as much as the state has allowed. Anyway, if I was to demand religion is banned, I'd be as bad!

Quality of life for the people who live here & generating money are related...with an economy that requires a high percentage of migrant workers to maintain - the government d@mn well should be concerned. :mad:

ArthurDent

TempestSabre wrote:

The RC church does the same thing everywhere, not just in Ireland. So thats not particular to Ireland. However the difference in Ireland is that the State has really dropped the ball at anticipating demand, and keeping pace with the school places required of any type. So I assume your problem is really with the State and not the RC church. Besides this govt is not really concerned with quality of life, just generating money.

I agree with you 100% - it isn't the RC oir any other denominations fault - the fault lies solely with our government (and previous ones). I have no problem with denominational schools - although I don't think they should be state funded. We (through the Govt) should grow up and accept the responsibility of providing education for all our children on an equal basis - it ain't going to happen, but it would be great.

TempestSabre

Ickle Magoo wrote:

....Quality of life for the people who live here & generating money are related...with an economy that requires a high percentage of migrant workers to maintain - the government d@mn well should be concerned. :mad:

Profits maybe, quality of life I'm not so sure. Quality of everything seems to have decreased in recent years. The only thing thats increased is the cost.

Anyway the point is the Govt and the State is the cause of the failings of the education system. Not a church.

Nevyn

I never said otherwise.
The government should have redressed the balance long ago.

RainyDay

TempestSabre wrote:

Since you get people of other religions and of no religion in local schools and often then don't attend RE I always assumed you don't need to be baptised to get into a local school.

Or do you think people are running around baptising all in sight to get into schools? In my area all you have to be is a certain age and that is it.

As has been explained repeatedly on this thread, the discrimination is done by prioritisation. So in theory, you don't have to be of a certain religion to get into the school. In practice where the school is over-subscribed, as is the case with many schools in Dublin and the surrounding regions, those of other/no religion will be so far down the list that they just won't get in.

Indeed, I know of many parents (including myself) who have baptised their children for the sole purpose of ensuring eligibility for schools.

TempestSabre wrote:

Its historic its only funding the established schooling system. It existed before the foundation of the State. Its never got off its ar$e to do anything else about it. Besides theres never been much pressure to change it till recently. Though an awful lot of recent immigrants are actually RC, so may end up slowing the decline of the RC church here.

Is there any data that supports your comments about recent immigrants? In summary, your response to the 'any good reason' question is 'because we've always done it that way', which is never a good response to any question. You're right, insofar as the state has never got its act together to address this issue. Our railways were originally built by private companies/individuals in the 1800's, but the state had the foresight to take on/nationalise these companies to ensure fair access to the infrastructure. Is there any chance that a future government will have the balls to stand up to the religious bodies and take back control (or even just take back funding) for the schools?

OTK wrote:

OK, to list the reasons given for why state funded primary schools should be allowed to choose students based on religion:

• the churches own the buildings
• the churches have done a lot of good in education in the past and should be allowed to continue
• most people in the country are nominally catholic so it makes sense that most schooling is segregated on religious grounds
• teaching children religion outside of normal school hours would be a pain for religious parents
• the law allows the churches to behave in this way
• schools such as educate together exist that don't select based on religion

any that I've missed?

Could this be the same OTK who was complaining bitterly about religious discrimination in schools here? Seems like somebody has had a bit of a Pauline conversion. But anyway, let's look at the issues you raise.

Yes, the church have done a lot of good in the past, particularly in education those who couldn't afford to pay for an education (when free state education was not available). But the churches have also done lots of evils in the past, so you can't look at the positive without looking at the negative too. IMHO, the past isn't that relevant. Either it is right or wrong to allow schools to discriminate on religion (in a way that no other body or organisation could legally do). For me, it is just plain wrong.

You make a bit leap in jumping from 'nominally Catholic' to 'segregated schooling'. Take a few steps back there and explain further why segregated schooling is a good thing. Maybe have a think about how well it has worked out in Northern Ireland before answering.

Educate Together schools are few and far between, and many of those that do existing are crying out for funding for decent buildings. There is no democratic process that allows parents to ensure that the state funds those schools which meet the needs of the parents. The incumbent operators (the religious bodies) maintain control solely for historic reasons. This has to change.

Ickle Magoo

TempestSabre wrote:

Profits maybe, quality of life I'm not so sure. Quality of everything seems to have decreased in recent years. The only thing thats increased is the cost.

Anyway the point is the Govt and the State is the cause of the failings of the education system. Not a church.

I agree completely - I don't think anyone holds the Church responsible for taking up the slack where the State has failed...if anything they have done a huge service to people living in Ireland. I think the point most folks are making is that in 2006, it's rediculous that the Church is STILL having to take up the slack as the State turns a blind eye to what the country has been crying out for, for years.

No-one is denying there is a high percentage of RC parents wanting their children to attend RC schools, no-one is suggesting that RC schools should be banned or that they should be forced to water down their religious teachings to appease non-Catholic children that are forced, out of lack of other choices, to attend them. I think what most people want is a democratic education system whereby those who wish their children to attend religious schools can & those who wish their children to attend secular schools have that as a viable option.

It's my own personal wish that religion - other than general education on all faiths - should be removed from schools. I want my children to be open-minded, have multi-cultural & multi-faith awareness without judgement. That is my own wish but I would settle just for a fair system that does not discriminate against my children & gives them the same opportunities afforded to other children baptised into the RC faith. It's so sad that people with that line of thinking are considered so threatening.

My in-laws have discussed at length the faults of the Irish education system & were aware of them 20yrs ago - to say it is somehow a new concept that a particular denomination should not be running the educational programme of generations of children, is simply not true in my experience. Many people for many, many years have been campaigning for change, it's only now that their work is becoming more obvious to the general public. It's such a shame that so many people are balking at the thought of progress - but perhaps inevitable given the education system they went through & they are, ironically, prime examples of the very reason why change is necessary.

I've spoken to many non-Irish about the problems we have with the education system here & told them of the suggestions made that children aged 4/5 onwards always have the option of being segregated & put out into the corridor or another room while particular religious teaching goes on. The response is absolute horror & disgust that anyone would think that is an acceptable alternative to secular education or the State intervening to take back control of the education of future generations.