New poll religion in schools

TempestSabre

RainyDay wrote:

As has been explained repeatedly on this thread, the discrimination is done by prioritisation. So in theory, you don't have to be of a certain religion to get into the school. In practice where the school is over-subscribed, as is the case with many schools in Dublin and the surrounding regions, those of other/no religion will be so far down the list that they just won't get in.

Thats not how it works in my area. Its specific to each area and the school board thats there.

RainyDay wrote:

Indeed, I know of many parents (including myself) who have baptised their children for the sole purpose of ensuring eligibility for schools.

As has been discussed before, and in other threads here, its not usually a requirement.

RainyDay wrote:

Is there any data that supports your comments about recent immigrants? In summary,

No data. Just the increase in non english masses around and the increase in other churches setting up all over.

RainyDay wrote:

your response to the 'any good reason' question is 'because we've always done it that way', which is never a good response to any question.

As a silly question....its only the answer to the question you keep asking. A more interesting question would be should it be the same moving forward.

RainyDay wrote:

...You're right, insofar as the state has never got its act together to address this issue. Our railways were originally built by private companies/individuals in the 1800's, but the state had the foresight to take on/nationalise these companies to ensure fair access to the infrastructure. Is there any chance that a future government will have the balls to stand up to the religious bodies and take back control (or even just take back funding) for the schools?

Thanks. I didn't realise the state of the rail service was a shining example.

RainyDay wrote:

Yes, the church have done a lot of good in the past, particularly in education those who couldn't afford to pay for an education (when free state education was not available). But the churches have also done lots of evils in the past, so you can't look at the positive without looking at the negative too. IMHO, the past isn't that relevant. Either it is right or wrong to allow schools to discriminate on religion (in a way that no other body or organisation could legally do). For me, it is just plain wrong.

How is it not relevant. The past has result in the situation we've got today. You can't learn with out looking back at the mistakes that were made in the past. The schools aren't discriminating, they are allowed to set up their own schools. The issue is no other schools were set up. That the fault of the other religions, and the govt. Of course there wasn't much demand in the past, and supply needs to meet demand. Which it did. it just doesn't anymore.

RainyDay wrote:

You make a bit leap in jumping from 'nominally Catholic' to 'segregated schooling'. Take a few steps back there and explain further why segregated schooling is a good thing. Maybe have a think about how well it has worked out in Northern Ireland before answering.

You might as well argue that private schools are a bad thing. There will always be religious schools, private schools and non religious states shools. Theres just not enough of the latter.

RainyDay wrote:

Educate Together schools are few and far between, and many of those that do existing are crying out for funding for decent buildings. There is no democratic process that allows parents to ensure that the state funds those schools which meet the needs of the parents.

Theres 4 in my immediate area so its not a problem for me. But then I checkout the schools before I decide to live where I am. There is a democratic process. You vote your govt in and they decide all of this. You should make this an issue for the election. In our area the lack of school places is a huge issue and is already on the agenda of all the local parties.

The govt does partially fund the Educate Together schools anyway, though not enough. Of course you can opt out of RE in other schools aswell so Educate Together is not the only option as you are suggesting.

RainyDay wrote:

The incumbent operators (the religious bodies) maintain control solely for historic reasons. This has to change.

So its is historic now? I thought it was only for discrimination? :rolleyes:

Ickle Magoo

Tempest Sabre, If you don't mind me asking...what's your beef with secular education? Do you think people who are not religious should be forced to send their children to religious schools & be segregated from their classmates? Do you think the system as it stands is perfect & no changes should be made? Your area has a particular selection process so everyone else telling you their problems are making them up?! I'm not sure what stance you are arguing....

TempestSabre

What specific organisations (other then the schools themselves) are campaigning for secular schools for years. ?

Ickle Magoo wrote:

....
I've spoken to many non-Irish about the problems we have with the education system here & told them of the suggestions made that children aged 4/5 onwards always have the option of being segregated & put out into the corridor or another room while particular religious teaching goes on. The response is absolute horror & disgust that anyone would think that is an acceptable alternative to secular education or the State intervening to take back control of the education of future generations.

Personally I think its no different to those that don't want to do Irish or some other subject and do something else instead. Why is it horrific? But what else can you do in a religious school. Its not going to stop being a religious school is it?

Its not an alternative to secular schools or the govt funding more non religious schools. Thats a completely different issue. Thats a political issue not one of discrimination.

One option is that the state buys the schools, & land and then funds it 100%. Which will probably end up happening as the RC church no longer has the resources to cope with the demand for schools. Or the size of its own parishes anymore. Even if that happen theres still not enough school places without building new schools. It will become an election issue though.

Ickle Magoo

I didn't say specific organisations...if you ask older generations about the education system, you will find those who don't aprove of the system in place - either that or my in-laws are complete radicals!

So what system do you want to see in place? Everyone here has specified a preference & you seem to be arguing against everyone & picking up on any spelling or gramatical errors en route - what is your stand point?

TempestSabre

Ickle Magoo wrote:

Tempest Sabre, If you don't mind me asking...what's your beef with secular education? Do you think people who are not religious should be forced to send their children to religious schools & be segregated from their classmates? Do you think the system as it stands is perfect & no changes should be made? Your area has a particular selection process so everyone else telling you their problems are making them up?! I'm not sure what stance you are arguing....

I don't have a problem with either. But you seem to by laying this problem at the foot of the RC church. They didn't create this problem, the state and sucessive govts did. As did the voting public who've not made it an issue for the politicians. A lot of people seem to jump on these threads like a tabloid newspaper with senstionalism like descrimination and indoctrination etc. Missing the real issue. Which is lack of school places of any type and the failure of the Govt to anticiapate the obvious demand. Obvious because of massive housing over development - shockingly bad planning, massive immigration, the wane of the RC and its resources. It would have been obvious to any one. We've been going on about it for years in our area and we've struggled with it for decades. But now it reaching crisis levels due to the govt mismanagement. Its something they are good at. Coasting the wave of celtic tiger and doing very little with the resources at their disposal.

Ickle Magoo

I agree with all of that - as I said earlier...

I agree completely - I don't think anyone holds the Church responsible for taking up the slack where the State has failed...if anything they have done a huge service to people living in Ireland. I think the point most folks are making is that in 2006, it's rediculous that the Church is STILL having to take up the slack as the State turns a blind eye to what the country has been crying out for, for years.

I think we are singing off the same hymn sheet really...

I think to deny a degree of indoctrination is enjoyed by the RC church in religious schools here or the fact that the majority of RC schools do [legally] discriminate against non-Catholics is slightly odd when the overwhelming evidence points to just that but other than those points, I agree wholeheartedly with your last post. Well said!

TempestSabre

Ickle Magoo wrote:

...
I think to deny a degree of indoctrination is enjoyed by the RC church in religious schools here or the fact that the majority of RC schools do [legally] discriminate against non-Catholics is slightly odd when the overwhelming evidence points to just that but other than those points, I agree wholeheartedly with your last post. Well said!

Part of the RC faith is to spread itself. Has been since day 1. A church is entitled to have its own schools etc. Therefore who should be providing these non catholic schools. Other religions and the state/govt. So its these that are discriminating by not providing an alternative. Not the RC church.

Ickle Magoo

So neither indoctrination nor discrimination are being sensationalised? They are both live & well - and perfectly acceptable & understandable apparently :eek:

If you want to consider yourself the national education system & build & run schools from the publics purse-strings, then you must accept the nations children - the fact they are failing to do so has led to this whole discussion...talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face! :rolleyes:

I agree the church should have schools if they want, whether they should be funded out of public coffers when they fail to offer a public education, to the public as a whole, & teach about every religion in the Irish public domain, is another thing.

TempestSabre

Ickle Magoo wrote:

So neither indoctrination nor discrimination are being sensationalised? They are both live & well - and perfectly acceptable & understandable apparently :eek:

Thats what religions do

Ickle Magoo wrote:

If you want to consider yourself the national education system & build & run schools from the publics purse-strings, then you must accept the nations children - the fact they are failing to do so has led to this whole discussion...talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face! :rolleyes:

Where is that the mandate of the RC church?

Ickle Magoo wrote:

I agree the church should have schools if they want, whether they should be funded out of public coffers when they fail to offer a public education, to the public as a whole, & teach about every religion in the Irish public domain, is another thing.

Actually that is the precise thing. For the majoirty of the population they do offer the required education. However the rest of the population isn't being provided for, and the demographic is changing. Its still the majority though. The Stat is failing the rest. The RC is providing for its own. As its entitled to.

Still interested about those groups campaigning for secular schools for years.

Ickle Magoo

TempestSabre wrote:

Still interested about those groups campaigning for secular schools for years.

From the ET website...

Educate Together is the representative organisation of the Educate Together schools and associations throughout the Republic of Ireland. It owes its origins in the movement to establish new multi-denominational primary schools, which emerged in the late 1970s and early 1980s. By 1984, when Educate Together was established, there were three schools and the organisation acted as their co-ordinating body. Since then the movement has grown considerably.

Also, don't forget the large chunk of Irish parents who want their children in ET schools. Presumably when the ET ethos was getting off the ground in the 70's, the percentage of immigrant parents were fairly low? My local ET school is made up of 40% RC children despite their being 4 RC schools in the area. The present education system is undemocratic, archiac and as far as I'm concerned, breeds an unhealthy contempt for minorities or anyone considered different from what the majority have been taught as the norm. There is an unhealthy belief that minorities should put up & shut up, force themselves to go against beliefs & faiths, or even move jobs & house so all the "other"/non-religious people can be herded together in some kind of sectarian/divisive area, all while the status quo is vehemently defended.

The United Nations Committee on the Rights of the Child recommended to the Irish State that it promotes the establishment of non-denominational and multi-denominational schools. This formal recommendation re-enforced the recommendation of the UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination(CERD) that was issued last year.

This latest recommendation again underlines the United Nations organisation’s support of the case made by Educate Together. Two major committees of the UN have now examined this case and have supported it on clear human rights grounds.

This should be downright embarrassing rather than a source of pride worth hanging onto!

As any econimist worth his salt will tell you, Ireland desperately needs domestic & migrant workers as well as both Irish & non-Irish professionals to both move here & to stay here, in order to maintain the levels of economic growth currently being enjoyed. Minorities should be made welcome in Ireland - the country should be doing all it can to keep people living & working here. I too am astounded at the short-sightedness of some people & politicians. I'm flabbergasted, shocked & disappointed - probably frustrated more than anything - that anyone can be so blinded & prejudiced that they can't see the innevitable if things don't change & change faster.

You agree that more secular schools are required, you agree the State needs to do something drastic to redress the imbalance created by their inaction, you were unaware that there has been campaigning for secular/multi-denominational schools for many years & you don't seem to see anything wrong with discrimination, indoctrination & divisionary education - so I don't think there is really anything further I can say other than...here's to progress! *raises cup of coffee*

TempestSabre

Ickle Magoo wrote:

......there is an unhealthy belief that minorities should put up & shut up, force themselves to go against beliefs & faiths, or even move jobs & house so all the "other"/non-religious people can be herded together in some kind of sectarian/divisive area, all while the status quo is vehemently defended.

Whats the difference between someone moving to be near or in a RC parish to get into a specific RC school. And someone else moving to be near or in a secular, non RC school?

Ickle Magoo wrote:

...You agree that more secular schools are required, you agree the State needs to do something drastic to redress the imbalance created by their inaction, you were unaware that there has been campaigning for secular/multi-denominational schools for many years & you don't seem to see anything wrong with discrimination, indoctrination & divisionary education - so I don't think there is really anything further I can say other than...here's to progress! *raises cup of coffee*

Since I was linking and quoting from the ET website before anyone else brought them up how can you say I'm unaware? I just wanted to know what groups there are? So far you've only quoted the one that I've already linked to.

Those problems like discrimination and sectarisim exist where there are secular schools too. Secular schools are not a magic pill for those problems.

On reading about other systems the one I was interested was Japan where there are many religions, and people mix and match what they want. But in schools it seems (and I'm no expert) that they are not taught as a specific religious subject. Rather they have classes on moral education which is an interesting idea. I remember doing a class on civics many moons ago but the japanese concept is more fundamental than that.

RainyDay

TempestSabre wrote:

Thats not how it works in my area. Its specific to each area and the school board thats there.

So just to be 100% clear, the RC schools in your area don't have enrollment policies which give priority to RCs?

TempestSabre wrote:

As has been discussed before, and in other threads here, its not usually a requirement.

As explained repeatedly before, it not a question of requirements - it a question of use of religion in prioritising which kids get chosen when the school is over-subscribed.

TempestSabre wrote:

How is it not relevant. The past has result in the situation we've got today. You can't learn with out looking back at the mistakes that were made in the past. The schools aren't discriminating, they are allowed to set up their own schools. The issue is no other schools were set up. That the fault of the other religions, and the govt. Of course there wasn't much demand in the past, and supply needs to meet demand. Which it did. it just doesn't anymore.

My complaint is not with the schools. My complaint is with the state which provides funding for the schools who discriminate basedc on religion.

TempestSabre wrote:

The govt does partially fund the Educate Together schools anyway, though not enough. Of course you can opt out of RE in other schools aswell so Educate Together is not the only option as you are suggesting.

My issue is not about how RE is or isn't done in the school. My issue is about how schools select pupils when they are oversubscribed.

Nevyn

TempestSabre you clearly think the current system is hunky dory and don't see the way the ethos of the school channels it's way down into the class room.

You are entitled to those opinions and thos who have issue with it and want change are entitle to thier opinions and to work to wards resolving what is to thier mind an unfiar system.

TempestSabre

RainyDay wrote:

So just to be 100% clear, the RC schools in your area don't have enrollment policies which give priority to RCs?

I can't speak for all of them.

RainyDay wrote:

As explained repeatedly before, it not a question of requirements - it a question of use of religion in prioritising which kids get chosen when the school is over-subscribed.

Perhaps I've been misreading the thread. But I haven't heard of religion being used to prioritize kids before. That would be very unfair.

RainyDay wrote:

My complaint is not with the schools. My complaint is with the state which provides funding for the schools who discriminate basedc on religion...My issue is not about how RE is or isn't done in the school. My issue is about how schools select pupils when they are oversubscribed.

I thought the thread was about religion in general terms in schools. Not that its used to prioritize the entry order into a school. I can't comment on that as I haven't had experience of it.

TempestSabre

Thaedydal wrote:

TempestSabre you clearly think the current system is hunky dory and don't see the way the ethos of the school channels it's way down into the class room.

You are entitled to those opinions and thos who have issue with it and want change are entitle to thier opinions and to work to wards resolving what is to thier mind an unfiar system.

As I've said repeatedly. The problem (so obviously I think theres a problem:rolleyes: ) is the lack of overall school places, and thats the govt failing, not the churches. If you had the option of a convenient secular school and there were enough places would you care what the local RC parish school was doing?

Nevyn

I wouldn't.
But can you see any government setting up a secular school along side each and every exsisting denominational school which they are already funding ?

Ickle Magoo

You keep harping on about me needing to provide you with groups that have been campaigning despite the fact I said many, many PEOPLE have been campaigning for years. First of all you seem to dispute that fact & now you are obsessing with making me produce proof of groups I never said existed in the first place?! :eek: Why are you asking who has been campaigning for years if you are well aware that many people have been campaigning for multi-religious/secular public education for over 20 years anyway? Strange tact...

I don't know anyone where I live that has to move house in order to get their children into an RC school...is that the "everyone lives in Dublin" thing again? With the overwhelming numbers of RC schools, I can't imagine the problem is anywhere near as big an issue countrywide, as it is for those wanting their children to attend secular schooling. Is that really the solution anyway? Move house before you start conceiving in order to be in the right area to send your child to one of the handful of schools that promotes the most basic of democratic educations? That's just madness! Not to mention the fact that parents wanting to send their children to a particular RC school at least have the choice of others. There is one ET school in the entire County I live in. There are only 41 ET schools in the whole country - hardly comparable to being fussy about which RC school out of X number in the area you want your child to attend due to exam success or whatever!

Discrimination is everywhere, I agree & I don't think secular schooling is a magic pill...especially not when the education system has been allowed to be discriminatory as it is here & I think it is completely logical that some people balk at the thought of change, baring in mind the very education system they progressed through & what they were taught to believe! However, I've been privilledged [or lucky?] enough to never have to witness a public education system funded by public coffers that is legally allowed to systemically discriminate or effectively promote sectarianism before. Before moving here I was niave enough to think such systems had been, quite rightly, condemmed to the history books. Complete idiolistic stupidity on my part, obviously! :rolleyes:

I just find it all & some of the prevailing attitudes here so depressing. Anyway, I think I've more than made my point, hopes & wishes clear - albeit badly at times! If you want to make up anything else to try & start an argument with, I'm afraid you'll be shadow boxing, lol! Best wishes.

TempestSabre

I'm only guessing but I would doubt that the numbers would justify it, at least not at the moment. But maybe they would. Before that happens though, I reckon, as I posted much earlier....

TempestSabre wrote:

...
One option is that the state buys the schools, & land and then funds it 100%. Which will probably end up happening as the RC church no longer has the resources to cope with the demand for schools. Or the size of its own parishes anymore. Even if that happen theres still not enough school places without building new schools....

Nevyn

Well with the diocese in Juilains town already stating they do not have the money to buy land for a new school or an expandsion of the school the crisies is already happening.

The same has been ocurring in D15 with all the new housing estate springing up and the land prices rocketing so that schools are not being built despite the need.

There should be a planning system like what there is in germany.
For every X ammount of housing put in as part of the plans for the community there has to be land set aside at a reduced price for schools and planning for ammenites and shops included in the over all plans.

TempestSabre

Agreed.

TempestSabre

Ickle Magoo wrote:

You keep harping on...obsessing

I only asked twice. You linked to one school that I'd already linked to and I specifically said for no schools as its in their own interest to promote themselves. I was interested in hearing about the groups. Thats all.

Ickle Magoo wrote:

...I don't know anyone where I live that has to move house in order to get their children into an RC school...is that the "everyone lives in Dublin" thing again? With the overwhelming numbers of RC schools, I can't imagine the problem is anywhere near as big an issue countrywide, as it is for those wanting their children to attend secular schooling. Is that really the solution anyway? Move house before you start conceiving....

.

I don't know anyone here who moves to find a school that teaches in English either. I know lots of people who moved back from outside of Ireland to get their kids in a Irish RC school. Were they being discriminated against where they were abroad?

.
....However, I've been privilledged [or lucky?] enough to never have to witness a public education system funded by public coffers that is legally allowed to systemically discriminate or effectively promote sectarianism before. Before moving here I was niave enough to think such systems had been, quite rightly, condemmed to the history books. Complete idiolistic stupidity on my part, obviously! :rolleyes:

I was going to post a few links about the Scottish system only the a lot of articles were driven off topic with the widespread problem of sectarianism. So its hardly a shining light.

RainyDay

TempestSabre wrote:

Perhaps I've been misreading the thread. But I haven't heard of religion being used to prioritize kids before. That would be very unfair.



I thought the thread was about religion in general terms in schools. Not that its used to prioritize the entry order into a school. I can't comment on that as I haven't had experience of it.

See this tthread.

TempestSabre

RainyDay wrote:

See this tthread.

Like I said that off topic for this thread. Lets keep that discussion on that thread.

Nevyn

Even if the enrollement policies of the school were changed so that they were no long discrimatory or that they did not enforce the rules about children of the parish first there would still be the issue of the ethos of the school.

TempestSabre

Thaedydal wrote:

Even if the enrollement policies of the school were changed so that they were no long discrimatory or that they did not enforce the rules about children of the parish first there would still be the issue of the ethos of the school.

All I know is our local schools has changed it policy. What its ethos is I have no idea.

Nevyn

The relgious ethos of the school effects what is taught and how it is taught.
The lack of a health based sexual education including contraception and sti is on of the issues.

TempestSabre

Thaedydal wrote:

The relgious ethos of the school effects what is taught and how it is taught.
The lack of a health based sexual education including contraception and sti is on of the issues.

RE, and SE Anything else?

Ickle Magoo

TempestSabre wrote:

I was going to post a few links about the Scottish system only the a lot of articles were driven off topic with the widespread problem of sectarianism. So its hardly a shining light.

I have to comment on this as you are really being very unfair. Several times in this thread I have noticed you selectively ignoring some points & jump on others you think you have an answer for, even picking on spelling or grammer when you can't find a point to make. Now you are suggesting the rediculous & yet again, trying to side-step the point I was actually making.

I commented on the actual system discriminating or promoting sectarianism - the system passed by parliament via the Education Act...quite a different thing to there being problems of sectarianism within a population of a country. Of course there is sectarianism in Scotland. Especially in the west coast where Catholic Irish immigrants moved to a predominantly protestant country (oh the irony!) witnessing any amount of idiots at a Celtic Vs Rangers game can show you that. I am from the east coast of Scotland which is as different in attitudes towards religion as the North of Ireland is to the South so when I say I have never witnessed it - that is exactly what I mean. Where did I say Scotland has no sectarianism? You are just making things up again! [Notice it is always religion Vs religion - a sound argument in itself why religion has no place in childrens school educations if ever there was one]

You make the point you can't comment as you have never witnessed something - well, likewise I have never witnessed a sectarian, discriminatory education system. I have met sectarian idiots & muppets who are happy to have discrimination in the world...however, I've never known of a publicly funded education system that is legally allowed to do either. That was my point - not that Scotland is some kind of vituous paradise where none of these ignorant neanderthals exist, just that the laws governing the education system ban such backward thinking. I know the RC Church set up their own schools systems in Scotland which certainly do not help to integrate one religious background with another & imo do nothing to solve the ignorance, division & tensions.

You are also still going on about immigrants. Do you think when ET was set up in the 70's it was set up by immigrants? Really?! :rolleyes: Why do you think there are such large percentages of RC kids in the ET school system? Everyone has to fight for places. That means RC parents who could easily enroll their kids in one of X no of RC schools still choose to fight for a place in an ET school - why do think that is? Do you not think it's time to accept that Ireland is moving on from religion governing every aspect of life? You may hate to admit it - but I think it's only a matter of a very short time before the minority you speak of become the majority.

TempestSabre

Ickle Magoo wrote:

....I know the RC Church set up their own schools systems in Scotland which certainly do not help to integrate one religious background with another & imo do nothing to solve the ignorance, division & tensions....

I dunno what point you are making about Scotland. It has its own flaws and the history is very different. From my limited reading the schools are non-denominational, not secular. Perhaps because there isn't one overwhelming denomination. RC church obvious did its own thing as it always does. All I said was its very hard to get a good link to the system because of all the links about sectarianism. Obviously its due to sensationalism in the media, but theres a lot of resources devoted to it. I don't why that is, it was just apparent when looking for info on the Scottish education system.

Ickle Magoo wrote:

You are also still going on about immigrants. Do you think when ET was set up in the 70's it was set up by immigrants?...

I didn't realize I was "going on" about it. My understanding is immigration, migration and the wane of the RC church is why theres a change in the religious demographic. Thats why I brought it up. If its not relevant and the pressure on secular schools is solely from Irish people who don't want a religious education then great. I don't see what difference that makes. As far as I'm concerned the issues are arising mainly due to the failure of the govt to supply the demand for school places of any type.

Personally I think the ET schools are popular not just because of they are not RC. But because people have a great opinion of the teaching standards there. Thats what I hear from friends with kids there.

parsi

Thaedydal wrote:

Even if the enrollement policies of the school were changed so that they were no long discrimatory or that they did not enforce the rules about children of the parish first there would still be the issue of the ethos of the school.

In the UK the entrance to schools is based on a geographical boundary so it may as well be parish as DED or whatever. But yes the ethos issue remains.

As an aside our local national school received a chunk of land last year from the SMA to build the Junior & Senior infants classrooms on. Without that the school just wouldn't have been able to cope with demand which all goes back to the issue of planning for schools and facilities and not just housing.