New poll religion in schools

Ickle Magoo

The point I was making was my original point - I have never before known a public education system funded by the tax payer, that is legally allowed to discriminate or promote sectarianism. That is what I believe is wrong with the Irish education system in a nutshell - and what shocked me. Not that RC schools should be banned, not that religion should be removed from the curriculum, not that the Scottish education system is the bees-knees but that in a multi-religious society, tax payers should not be made to be responsible for the promotion of one particular religion.

I can only go on the system I was educated in & my school showed no particular tendancies towards any one religion or denomination, so in that sense it was multi-religious rather than secular. I, personally, don't mind general religious education classes. I would rather a balanced perspective of all religions are given than the "we believe this" with "what they believe" thrown in. I think religion is a very personal thing & because of that, if parents feel strongly about it - they should be the ones puting the effort in to ensure their children are also believers.

I think the fact it is ET is what raises the teaching standard. That's what I hear. I agree - more are needed & as usual the government are treading water in fear of making change or progress :rolleyes::mad:

Nevyn

Children of the parish is not just geographical but those that were baptised into the parish in the local church first and formost.

I had quite an arguement with some one who called to my door and insisted I was a member of thier parish and thier reasoning was all the houses on the road were in the parish.

It had to be explained to them that all the catholics that lived on the road were members of their parish and I was not a member no matter where my house was as I am not a catholic.

TempestSabre

Ickle Magoo wrote:

The point I was making was my original point - I have never before known a public education system funded by the tax payer, that is legally allowed to discriminate or promote sectarianism. That is what I believe is wrong with the Irish education system in a nutshell - and what shocked me. Not that RC schools should be banned, not that religion should be removed from the curriculum, not that the Scottish education system is the bees-knees but that in a multi-religious society, tax payers should not be made to be responsible for the promotion of one particular religion.

I looked but couldn't find out. Are faith schools in Scotland, RC and others state funded? Or at least partially as in Ireland. I've a feeling they are, but I can't find a good link that discusses it.

http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/scotland.cfm?id=1599092006

Where faith schools exist they have some entitlements via law about how they fill their places. I don't think its that disimilar to Ireland. But I'm open to be corrected on that.

Ickle Magoo wrote:

I can only go on the system I was educated in & my school showed no particular tendancies towards any one religion or denomination, so in that sense it was multi-religious rather than secular. I, personally, don't mind general religious education classes. I would rather a balanced perspective of all religions are given than the "we believe this" with "what they believe" thrown in. I think religion is a very personal thing & because of that, if parents feel strongly about it - they should be the ones puting the effort in to ensure their children are also believers.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/talking_point/2724039.stm
http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=1231&id=1471922006

Sorry for the poor links. I can't find any decent ones.

Ickle Magoo wrote:

I think the fact it is ET is what raises the teaching standard. That's what I hear. I agree - more are needed & as usual the government are treading water in fear of making change or progress :rolleyes::mad:

They are simply incompetent.

Nevyn

I disagree that ET are incomeptent they are doing the best under the circumstance and the limited funding they have.

Yet again the government of this country are happy to sit back and let a charity pick up thier slack.

Why do you keep on with links to other countries ?

They have nothing to do with the situation here and how we go about changing things.

Ickle Magoo

(Correct me if I've got the wrong end of the stick TS) but I think TS was referring to the government as incompetent.

I think they keep linking to Scotland as I said I had never witnessed a public education system funded by the tax payer, that is legally allowed to discriminate or promote sectarianism & I think TS is desperate to prove that isn't the case...

TempestSabre

Thaedydal wrote:

I disagree that ET are incomeptent they are doing the best under the circumstance and the limited funding they have.

Yet again the government of this country are happy to sit back and let a charity pick up thier slack.

Why do you keep on with links to other countries ?

They have nothing to do with the situation here and how we go about changing things.

Yeah I meant the Govt.

Its just interesting to compare. The issue isn't only in Ireland. RC schools operate the same kinda rules everywhere.

Ickle Magoo wrote:

(Correct me if I've got the wrong end of the stick TS) but I think TS was referring to the government as incompetent.

I think they keep linking to Scotland as I said I had never witnessed a public education system funded by the tax payer, that is legally allowed to discriminate or promote sectarianism & I think TS is desperate to prove that isn't the case...

Desperate? Wha? What I am is interested. I've also linked to Japan. Noone else is proving links for further reading. Not that everything you read is true. But its nice to look around once in a while and not be so insular.

Ickle Magoo

TempestSabre wrote:

But its nice to look around once in a while and not be so insular.

Absolutely - one reason I was so desperate to get my kids into an ET school.

TempestSabre

Ickle Magoo wrote:

Absolutely - one reason I was so desperate to get my kids into an ET school.

I don't think RC is as isolating as you are harping on about. If it was you wouldn't have so many people leaving it.

Ickle Magoo

Perhaps that is the very reason they are leaving. The traditional insular thinking is no longer accepted by the younger generations?

TempestSabre

Ickle Magoo wrote:

Perhaps that is the very reason they are leaving. The traditional insular thinking is no longer accepted by the younger generations?

Does it matter. Point is the self promotion isn't effective.

Ickle Magoo

I thought it must matter or you wouldn't have mentioned it.

What methods of promotion the RC church choose [or any other church for that matter] & how successful it is, frankly, I couldn't give a monkeys about. How difficult it is to get into an ET school despite the numbers of tax payers who want their children to attend, however, concerns me greatly.

TempestSabre

I didn't I said you need to look beyond Ireland (at school systems) and not be so insular in the thread and only comment on Ireland. Which you took as being about RC being insular and that being a reason not to go there. I only responded to that.

What on earth are you doing on the boards at 5am?

It quite obvious that you are laying the blame of all the evils in the present system at the door the RC church. While I see it as a failing of the state and especially of successive govts. Why? Because I don't see that the RC church operates its school system any different here than anywhere else in the world. Whereas you seem to think theres something unique about it operates in Ireland. If for a minute you take the view that the RC Church operates its schools the same everywhere therefore there must be something else different about the Irish situation. That difference (be it economic, social whatever) is what I'm getting at nothing else.

I agree to disagree and leave it that.

Ickle Magoo

I was up at 5am due to a teething toddler who wouldn't go back to sleep at 4am...he was being merrily bounced on my knee as I posted!

I blame religion & the RC church for a lot of things & I haven't tried to hide my feelings on that but the current state of the Irish education system isn't one of them - as I have said on more than one occassion & you have repeatedly chosen to ignore. I haven't heard anyone on this thread blame the Catholic Church for anything related to the education system in fact. A lot of unecessary desperate defending of the RC Church in response to criticisms of the current system which highlight why change is needed but no blame. I don't think there is anything particularly unique in the way the Irish education sytem is run - I'm sure there is bound to be other countries that operate a similar system somewhere in the world but then how other countries choose to spend their tax payers money in relation to public education holds very little interest for me. How the Irish government chooses to spend the tax our household contributes, in the country we live in & the indemic social & religious issues thrown up by the systems our children must go through are very much of interest & presumably why this thread isn't called "Religion in Schools in Greenland" or "Why single-religion teaching works in Turkmenistan"...

TempestSabre

Ickle Magoo wrote:

....I haven't heard anyone on this thread blame the Catholic Church for anything related to the education system in fact.

I would have thought the system for getting a place in a schools was part of the education system. I thought that entry mechanism and RE in the school. was what you were being critical of. My mistake.

Ickle Magoo wrote:

....How the Irish government chooses to spend the tax our household contributes, in the country we live in & the indemic social & religious issues thrown up by the systems our children must go through are very much of interest & presumably why this thread isn't called "Religion in Schools in Greenland" or "Why single-religion teaching works in Turkmenistan"...

"Ireland" isn't in the thread or the poll title. Faith schools and religion schools are issues worldwide. As is the state funding of the same.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/politics_show/4651048.stm

Nevyn

This is an irish site and the majority of the parents here are living in ireland and this thread was started in the wake of the other one about irish school and the current situation here in ireland.

TempestSabre

Thaedydal wrote:

This is an irish site and the majority of the parents here are living in ireland and this thread was started in the wake of the other one about irish school and the current situation here in ireland.

Which one?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055008179
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055000841

Doesn't really matter. The issue is not specific to Ireland, so its valid to compare it with other countries. RC schools are the same everywhere, and have been for decades. TBH I don't see that limiting the scope to Ireland makes the core issue any different. Lack of school places of all types, lack of funding and Govt failure to deal with that problem.

Ickle Magoo

TempestSabre wrote:

I would have thought the system for getting a place in a schools was part of the education system. I thought that entry mechanism and RE in the school. was what you were being critical of. My mistake.

For umpteenth time - the Goverment is who I blame for not providing more schools, better schools, fair entry systems, etc, etc, etc, etc. I don't like the RC educationary methods, discrimination or promotion of sectarianism but I don't BLAME them for doing what comes naturally.

TempestSabre wrote:

"Ireland" isn't in the thread or the poll title.

This thread was started in relation another thread as the title belays. The question above the poll results states

Should the current system of patronage in primary schools be changed?

The question doesn't make sense if it is just talking about systems in general. The very first post states

The last poll was too heavily loaded so lets try this again.

The original poll referred to in the first post (in fact ONLY poll in this section) is headed

POLL: Do you think that primary education and religion should be kept separate?

& the first post on that poll stated

Irish primary schools are 99% run by religious institutions. Would you prefer if schools no longer chose teachers and pupils based on religion?

TempestSabre wrote:

Faith schools and religion schools are issues worldwide. As is the state funding of the same.

And I'll repeat yet again, how other countries choose to spend their tax payers money in relation to public education holds very little interest for me. How the Irish government chooses to spend the tax our household contributes, in the country we live in & the indemic social & religious issues thrown up by the systems our children must go through are very much of interest - which is why a discussion on this subject; on an Irish forum, by people living in Ireland is going to concentrate on the problems they have experienced & continue to face within the education systems in Ireland. Why suggesting other countries have the same issues would excuse Ireland from it's continuing problems is a complete mystery to me anyway.

Nevyn

It's called back pedaling and misdirection when your points have been ruled out of order.

TempestSabre

You mean this thread?

School wants proof my child is a catholic
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055000841

OTK wrote:

Hi there
....My wife put his name down last year and now I have been offered a place conditional on me sending in his baptismal cert...Leaving aside the rights and wrongs of the state paying for sectarian discriminatory schools run by a paedophile club, how am i going to get my kid into the school?....OTK

OTK wrote:

I told the school today that my wife had made a mistake and that the child was not baptised. I asked if this made any difference and they laughed and said no, that they choose on the basis of living close to the school and first come first served (you have to queue early in the morning on a certain date as my wife did). They told me there were 'plenty' of unbaptised children in the school who didn't take part in first communion.

Well I am afraid I will have to dismount from my high horse as my assumptions based on being asked for a baptismal cert were completely wrong.

Great thread.

TempestSabre

Ickle Magoo wrote:

.... Why suggesting other countries have the same issues would excuse Ireland from it's continuing problems is a complete mystery to me anyway.

I never said it excuses Ireland (ie the State) from its failings. Thats the exact point I've been making. Where exactly where did I say it excuses it?

TempestSabre

Besides this poll is flawed IMO anyway. It doesn't seperate the issue of the state providing enough school places and how they funded. The right of different faiths to have their own schools. Then the issue of state funding of only secular schools or all schools including ALL those of different faiths. So Jewish, Muslim, RC, Church of Ireland etc.

Ickle Magoo

The thread you point out is not a poll - so fairly obviously isn't the original poll being discussed

Why do you keep introducing other countries & their education system/problems then? What relevance do they have to the very real issues parents are complaigning about Ireland having in this day & age, in this thread?! No-one is disputing the RC Church runs their schools the same everywhere - I wouldn't know to argue otherwise...does the state in those countries have very, very few alternatives? Do the governments of those countries allow the majority public education provider (in this case the RC Church) to discriminate & promote sectarianism without providing an alternative that all who wish to avail of it can? And even if they do - what has that to do with the issues here?! I'm still confused...maybe it's the early start.

TempestSabre

Ickle Magoo wrote:

The thread you point out is not a poll - so fairly obviously isn't the original poll being discussed

This poll is in response to the other threads on religious education. (you told me that earlier ) No ones specifically said which one, so I can only assume you mean that one. I think that was the first one. AFAIK there isn't another poll only a couple of threads. Perhaps I've taken it up wrong, if so apologies.

Ickle Magoo wrote:

Why do you keep introducing other countries & their education system/problems then? ...

Thaedydal has decided its off topic. End of.

Anyway I'm all done, I've other things to do. If I don't chat again, dare I say it Happy Christmas?

Ickle Magoo

Don't dare to say it - thank you & I hope you have a very merry Christmas!