Determinism/ Fatalism

ronbyrne2005

Do these concepts mean that every single aspect of life could be predetermined? do these theories taken to their extremes mean every atom in universe could be in a location predetermined at the big bang???? Doesnt life (in for example human form) mean atoms of matter can be manipulated by organisms so that they are no longer predetermined by the big bang but by the actions that the organisms have performed on the matter? Is it possible that that organisms entire existence was also predetermined??

confused

Zillah

A predetermined world means that from the instant of the big bang everything in existence had a set course from then until the end of time. Anything an organism does is dictated by that came before it, including its genes and decision making process.

Of course, Quantum Mechanics put an interesting spin on it.

ronbyrne2005

Zillah wrote:

A predetermined world means that from the instant of the big bang everything in existence had a set course from then until the end of time. Anything an organism does is dictated by that came before it, including its genes and decision making process.

Of course, Quantum Mechanics put an interesting spin on it.

So if everything was predetermined at the big bang and quantum mechanics and other things dont make a difference to this then everything is predetermined? Hard to imagine this being the actual case with things like pink furry dice existing! How could it be the case that everything is predetermined if things like fashion humour etc exist? if i find myself talking to a friend in the street is that predetermined? How can such interaction be predetermined?

Neuro

ronbyrne2005 wrote:

So if everything was predetermined at the big bang and quantum mechanics and other things dont make a difference to this
then everything is predetermined? Hard to imagine this being the actual case with things like pink furry dice existing! How could it be the case that everything is predetermined if things like fashion humour etc exist? if i find myself talking to a friend in the street is that predetermined? How can such interaction be predetermined?

The question is why can't such interaction be predetermined; the maths involved would be beyond comprehension, but that is not to say it's impossible.

The psychologist Skinner claimed that the reason people believe in free will is that they are unaware of all the minute factors that influence their behaviour. In other words, free will is the gift of ignorence.

I think that, after God, free will is the last great illusion humanity will shed.

Daithio

Think about it this way ronbyrne. Everything that you do was caused by something else. In fact absolutely everything has a cause. Including pink furry dice and fashion humour.

Further every cause has a specific effect. If you were able to do a scientific experiment over and over again with the EXACT same circumstances before the experiment took place, each outcome would be exactly the same, because if the causes are the same the effect will be the same. The concept of fatalism or determinism is just this fact expanded. Everything is just a result of some cause that went before it, or predetermined it. Nothing escapes this, including fashion humour and furry dice. But what caused these causes? The answer is more causes, and before them more causes again. The generally accepted scientific explanation of the first cause, which all of these other causes can be traced back to, is the Big Bang.

The illusion of free will comes into play because we are merely organisms which are subject to and at the mercy of these scientific boundaries. When I decided to write this response it wasn't because some special part of my mind that controls free will told me to, it was a result of me having an interest in philosophy, of me reading boards, of me having access to the internet etc etc etc. All of these things were further caused by a whole load of other things, me being born in Ireland where boards is read, me having enough money to pay for this laptop etc etc. These things were in turn caused by my parents getting together and creating me, which was in turn caused by a whole load of other things. The fact is I had absolutely no control over any of these influences whatsoever, they were all predetermined. I don't have control over anything in fact, and nor do you, but because we're not developed enough to be able to understand and perceive the chain of causal events which lead to these actions we have created this illusion of free will. As Neuro said, it's similar enough to religion. It's pretty comforting to think that we have some sort of control over our own destinies, but the reality of the matter is we don't.

When I first heard about this theory it genuinely shocked me. But you get used to the idea after a bit, ironically enough it's kind of liberating actually!

ScumLord

Why would anything go to all the trouble of predetermining whatever billions of years of a universe and what did it?

It was inevitable that the universe would end up somewhat like it is now due to the laws of nature and physics but I don't think it could possible end up exactly the same every time. One tiny difference could cause massive changes over time, it would be far to expensive and difficult to guarantee the same thing happened over and over and nothing in the universe works like that. Most things have their set of rules and just react to their environment.

If you were able to do a scientific experiment over and over again with the EXACT same circumstances before the experiment took place, each outcome would be exactly the same, because if the causes are the same the effect will be the same.

That's a very controlled experiment and your only talking about the basics. If you do an experiment in the real world it wont turn out the same every time because everything's changed. Maybe in time we will be able to predict everything the universe does but that doesn't mean everything predetermined.

nesf

Daithio wrote:

Further every cause has a specific effect. If you were able to do a scientific experiment over and over again with the EXACT same circumstances before the experiment took place, each outcome would be exactly the same, because if the causes are the same the effect will be the same.

Not necessarily. The same inputs will not always produce the same result in some systems. Not all experiments are linear and all that. Plus you get quite quickly mired in causality problems when we start to go down this line, how local causality can be violated in certain quantum mechanical situations etc.

Daithio

ScumLord wrote:

Why would anything go to all the trouble of predetermining whatever billions of years of a universe and what did it?

You're confusing the concept of determinism with some sort of concept of intelligent design. I'm not claiming that somebody or something went to the 'trouble of predetermining whatever billions of years of a universe'.

And in response to Nesf, I accept that on a quantum level the laws of causality aren't applicable, but this still doesn't mean that we have free will. I accept that I was probably wrong in my last post in trying to defend determinism in such a simplistic way, I was just trying to explain the concept of determinism to the OP, but whatever arguments people come up with against fatalism they still don't stand as arguments in favour of some sort of free will.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

I accept that on a quantum level the laws of causality aren't applicable

isn't it possible that things on the quantum level are causally determined, but we don't understand enough about what's going on to see it yet? .. i just can't shake the feeling that all these quantum theorists are talking out their asses. kind of puts me in mind of the theory of ether that was around a hundred r more years ago.

Son Goku

Mordeth wrote:

isn't it possible that things on the quantum level are causally determined, but we don't understand enough about what's going on to see it yet? .. i just can't shake the feeling that all these quantum theorists are talking out their asses. kind of puts me in mind of the theory of ether that was around a hundred r more years ago.

The lack of causality has nothing to do with what we do or do not understand.
Any causal local theory and any quantum theory make very different predictions that can be tested in Bell experiments. The results of the experiments support quantum theory and refute any local causal theory in general, irrespective of what we do or do not understand. Causal theories just can't match the evidence.
The main difference between QM and the ether is that the ether never had experimental support, where as QM has had eighty years of continuous support.

nesf

Daithio wrote:

And in response to Nesf, I accept that on a quantum level the laws of causality aren't applicable, but this still doesn't mean that we have free will. I accept that I was probably wrong in my last post in trying to defend determinism in such a simplistic way, I was just trying to explain the concept of determinism to the OP, but whatever arguments people come up with against fatalism they still don't stand as arguments in favour of some sort of free will.

I appreciate what you were trying to achieve what I wrote was meant pretty much as a caveat to bear in mind when thinking about determinism. Our intuitive understanding of causality is based on the "human-scale" and just that. It, as Son-Goku explains well, doesn't necessarily work when we look at the universe at different scales.

hotspur

And would you believe that Daithio is a bloody poker player! So next time he hits you with a gutshot straight on the river he can tell you he knew it was coming and therefore epistemological fatalism is true!

More seriously though one ought not to confuse fatalism with determinism and you find very few philosphers who subscribe to fatalism. Determinism is not necessarily incompatible with free will. Daithio didn't you do philosophy in Trinity? Your lecturer on this was probably Prof Lyons so, and he's a compatibilist!

To the OP, this is an interesting and rewarding area and great for an early introduction into philosophy. Here's a link to the lecture notes of a univeristy philosophy course on this topic:
http://www.sfu.ca/philosophy/swartz/freewill1.htm

Thirdfox

If everything was pre-determined then what's to stop people going out on a raping/murdering/looting spree tomorrow? "I was destined to kill him" etc. etc.

How could people justify punishment for crimes that were pre-determined to be committed? Is it the fault of the person?

Law only exists because we believe people have free will and choose not to commit crime... are some people suggesting that we free all prisoners?

Daithio

hotspur wrote:

More seriously though one ought not to confuse fatalism with determinism and you find very few philosphers who subscribe to fatalism. Determinism is not necessarily incompatible with free will. Daithio didn't you do philosophy in Trinity? Your lecturer on this was probably Prof Lyons so, and he's a compatibilist!

Alright Hotspur. Yeah I had Prof Lyons for 1st and 2nd year before he was forced to retire due to being 65, it sucked because he was an excellent lecturer. Despite that I thought that all of his arguments for compatibalism were pretty flawed to tell you the truth, and I wasn't convinced at all.

I'm no genius when it comes to these matters though, I scraped through that degree, poker kind of took over somewhere along the way!

Daithio

Thirdfox wrote:

If everything was pre-determined then what's to stop people going out on a raping/murdering/looting spree tomorrow?

The illusion that everything is not predetermined.

Crucifix

Thirdfox wrote:

If everything was pre-determined then what's to stop people going out on a raping/murdering/looting spree tomorrow?...How could people justify punishment for crimes that were pre-determined to be committed?

Um...fate?

Thirdfox

So you're asking people that their child was supposed to be raped/killed/brain-damaged in an assault?

This kind of philosophy seems quite dangerous in the wrong hands - Hitler was supposed to kill millions of Jews etc. etc.

I can't accept that

Crucifix

Thirdfox wrote:

So you're asking people that their child was supposed to be raped/killed/brain-damaged in an assault?

This kind of philosophy seems quite dangerous in the wrong hands - Hitler was supposed to kill millions of Jews etc. etc.

I can't accept that

I'm not saying it's right, but you said if everything is predetermined what's to stop them doing whatever, and surely if everything is indeed predetermined the answer is fate.

Patricide

Why cant you accept that? After all Somtimes for great reform to happen there must be terrible tragedy. It could have been predetermined for hitler to kill all those jews just so that people of the later 20th centuary would be far more educated on why it is exactly wrong to do such things, after all if hitler had won the war noone would have blinked an eyelid and everyone would have seen the extermination of the jews as the right thing to do.

The thing thats really gonna mess you up though is that if everything is predetermined then why would it be predetermined that you would disagree with the topic of predetermination and essentially fate.

nesf

Predetermined does not entail anything but a causal relationship. Actions/occurances do not need justification in it. Things just happen.