smallholding farmers

scoobynutta22b

I was just wondering if there were any smallholding farmers on here and what their experiences were. I have recently inherited a long disused farm and am interested to get something up and running again. It’s quite a small farm, circa 15 acres. I have no previous experience of farming, so am quite ignorant in everything to do with farming really. Any experiences from others that have similar sized farms would be great.

I’m not looking to make fortunes out of this, just enough to live off of without hitting the breadline. Is there any help through grants etc?

maidhc

scoobynutta22b wrote:

I’m not looking to make fortunes out of this, just enough to live off of without hitting the breadline. Is there any help through grants etc?

You cannot live off 15 acres of land. You really would need ten times the amount of land before you could even consider quitting the day job.

Subsidies:
You have no single farm payment (I assume), so this puts you at a massive disadvantage to start.

REPS: Defiantely one to consider, but it will really only go some of the way towards tidying up the farm.

The other obvious one would be the Farm waste management grant, which gives up to 60% the cost of certain farm buildings.

Wishbone Ash

scoobynutta22b wrote:

just enough to live off of without hitting the breadline

The only way you could live off 15 acres is if it was zoned for construction and you grew houses/apartments on it.

Rabies

Maybe rent it the land to a local farmer for livestock or crop use. Then set the house aside for rental also.

Wishbone Ash

Rabies wrote:

set the house aside for rental also.

The OP made no mention of a house.

Rabies

Wishbone Ash wrote:

The OP made no mention of a house.

he doesn't want the tax man to know about the possible rent money

nollaig

he doesn't want the tax man to know about the possible rent money

Dont think it'll be too hard to convince a local farmer to pay up in cash

nollaig

As for what to do with 15 acres, I wouldnt have an idea. It could be ok if you wanted to farm as a hobby, but really you wont make any money considering the time & effort you'd have to put into it.

baikal

nollaig wrote:

Dont think it'll be too hard to convince a local farmer to pay up in cash

not a chance of getting a farmer to pay in cash. they need receipts for there accounts as well. renting out probably still best option though.

nollaig

not a chance of getting a farmer to pay in cash. they need receipts for there accounts as well. renting out probably still best option though.

I know plenty of farmers who just pay cash.

maidhc

nollaig wrote:

I know plenty of farmers who just pay cash.

Most wont though as it is a tax deductable expense.

nollaig

Most wont though as it is a tax deductable expense.

Yeah, but some dont have a clue about all that and just prefer to deal in cash.

The_Conductor

Ditto to the previous comments. Its not feasible to expect to make a living off 15 acres unless you are practising some very unusual farm enterprises that I am not going into.....

scoobynutta22b

I shall hopefully have a full time job unrelated to farming. I'm coming over for an interview next week. I'm more into the hobby side of things than making profits from farming. Just want to eat what I grow and maybe sell on the stuff I don't need.

Some of the land it rented out to local farmers, who pay cash , but the rent is quite low and I'd imagine renting a few acres to local farmers would not generate much income anyway. I'd rather do something to the land myself and feel like I'm achieving something.

I won't be selling any land for development, not building on any green spaces. I'm moving over for a change of lifestyle as I have a kid on the way and Luton isn't the best places to bring up a family! It's a very nice location and don't want to develop it. I might run a B&B or something, just to give my parents something to do as they have recently retired.

The property itself is a very old stone built cottage with some falling down out buildings. There is no central heating, one tap, a barely inside toilet, no bath you get the picture

I have the capital behind me to renovate the property. But do you get VAT returned to you for a self build in Ireland like you do in the UK?

What are REPS and Farm waste management grant?

mjffey

You don't get any grants for renovation here in ireland and about not being able to live from a 15 acres farm. My neighbour has a bit less then 20 acres, keeps a few kerry cows and breeds with them and he does the odd job here and there but he can live from it and not " just on the bread line".

maidhc

scoobynutta22b wrote:

I have the capital behind me to renovate the property. But do you get VAT returned to you for a self build in Ireland like you do in the UK?

Complicated. Generally: Yes on farm buildings, not on residence.

scoobynutta22b wrote:

What are REPS and Farm waste management grant?

REPS is the rural environmental protection scheme. You get a grant based on how many hectares you have in return for engaging in some environmentally friendly practices and carrying certain "beautification" (my word) works on your farm.

The farm waste management would be useful in your situation if you wanted to get some decent concrete aprons/sheds sorted out. You can get up to 60% of the cost paid for, but the application must be in by christmas, and applying is an involved enough process.

There was a pilot scheme a few years ago for refurbishing old houses using traditional materials (e.g. wool insulation). It wasn't continued though, which was a real pity


As regards making a living: We have a 120 acre drystock farm, and the only way a family could survive on its income alone would be if it were growing bungalows. But it is fantastic to live on a farm, the space is wonderful, and nothing beats eating food you produced yourself. It is a great lifestyle, and doing farm work is well better than the gym.

Again, your best bet is to contact Teagasc, (www.teagasc.ie) who will set you straight and not charge too much in the process.

sean_0

We have 17 acres at home where my dad keeps ~50 Sheep and 3 horses (breeding). We're also getting into bees this year. It's just a hobby farm really but it's quite well run. Overall profit per year is about 5K, so unless you want to head to the stone age that's a pretty small amount. You could probably look at horticulture under polytunnels growing expensive varieties of fruit and veg, and that might bring in a little more, but really I don't think you could make a living from it.

By the way, do you realise the value of the land at todays prices? Probably ~300K if it's around Clonmel (good land)

scoobynutta22b

Thanks for the replies guys.

Yes, I do realise the value of the land, but I do not wish to sell. I want to keep the land free from more structures and buildings.

mjffey

scoobynutta22b wrote:

Thanks for the replies guys.

Yes, I do realise the value of the land, but I do not wish to sell. I want to keep the land free from more structures and buildings.

YES YES YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I wish there were more people like you.

Maybe you could apply for a grant for planting trees. The more forrest the better for the enviroinment and animals (including mamals like humans:D )

Oldtree

I am in a similar position to you, except its 30 acres. 16 is hazel scrub on stone and wild woodland, a further 8 submerge for a time in winter. There is no way to make a living off a smallholding with a family to support, college etc.

The value of the land to you is in that you don't have to pay (or pay interest) for a site with a large garden. You should have no problem with planning for a house.

For self sufficiency in food terms you would need about 4 acres and the would have to work at it full time for it to work. if you are working off farm full time, 4-6 vegi beds and a small polytunnel will be all the that you have time for realisticly, a supplement only but the taste.....

renting land is small money after tax (42%), prsi (5%) and insurance to cover yourself.

Wood production on a small scale like this isn't viable, even for your own wood uses.

A private cottage, in addition to your home, is a good source of income as a lot of income here is from the tourist industry. again no site cost only building costs. You would have to make it very pretty and add value to your customers stay by "how can i improve their holiday" (like providing organic vegis) or landscaping, planting a wood to attract birds wildlife, etc.

The selling of a site is an option to fund your building or business ideas, but if it is a rural area then there are strick guidlines as to who can build there, decreasing the price.

mjffey

Scoobynutta22b,

If you are interested in smallholding why not subscribe to "Country Smallholding". It's a UK magazine with a lot of interesting info. Check out www.countrysmallholding.com

frost

My wife and I are in a similar situation to you, in that we have just been able to purchase 4 acres of organic land locally (Co Wicklow). We have some organic gardening experience and are generally outdoorsy and handy with tools etc, but aren't experienced commercial farmers by any stretch, although I've helped out at commercial farms for a year or so.

Our priorities are to get our hands dirty doing what we believe in (being out on the land with the kids, working with the land organically, recovering lost traditional farming practices, etc). The land will provide some income through sales of produce and by hosting training courses for like-minded people. We also have other work, so there is little pressure at this stage to "live off" the 4 acres, although I have to say that trying to be a computer person sometimes and a farmer other times is likely to split my personality in two!

We've applied for quite a few different sorts of grants, the applications are a bit daunting coming at them for the first time. Also as implied above, many grants are geared towards larger acreages, and some require you to already be farming rather than coming into it.

When learning about these grants and while applying for them, my wife did a huge amount of networking, asking people within the agencies and outside, and almost without exception she found people to be very helpful. Because of the training aspect of our business, we were able to apply for a broader range of grants than if we were just purely farming. I have no idea what we'll get, if anything, but am glad the applications are done, it was a lot of pressure over a short time! All these land-related grant apps ironically kept us off the land for a long block of time - there's a lot of detailed paperwork needed for some of these. I'm in front of a computer and in offices enough that I was happy to get back to just working out on the land.

One final thought: while I definitely respect the knowledge and experience of established farmers like the people I've worked for and the people posting here, I also am willing to question some of their assumptions. So when someone says "you can't do it that way", it's worth finding out why they think so.

Anyway, good luck with it!

RebeccaA

What a magic opportunity you have there, good luck.

We did a similar thing 2 years ago, you can read all about what we learn along the way on my blog at www.sallygardens.typepad.com

We live on this 16 acre smallholding, 13 acres are oak plantation. Is it possible to make a living, depends how you define 'make a living'. We grow all our own food - veg and meat. We have a polytunnel, I sell surplus to 2 people which pays me back double in a week what I'd have originally spent before we had the tunnel on org food. We rear rare breed free range organic pork for ourselves, poultry, have goats for meat and milk, keep bees - I hope to sell honey this year, my 2nd bee season. We produce all our own fire wood and we heat our home with a simple solid wood stove with a backboiler that heats rads and water. We have solar panels for hot water in summer. Our income is minimal, our expenses are also minimal.

I've just written an article all about how and why we are here in Leitrim, visit the blog. From the blog you can also find a new smallholders 'forum' http://sallygardens.freeforums.org/index.php I've just launched so post any questions there and folk will help. We run courses too on pig or goat rearing for smallholders, and craft workshops on felting. We love living here and love the 'work'. My husband runs a craft business from home making hand crafted hobby horse wooden toys.

Best of luck

Clik

If you have not already read "The Fat of the Land" by John Seymour I would strongly reccomend that you do. I believe it's very possible to make a living from a small holding but you may need to combine it with some other activites.

fastrac

Do up the cottage and go for the REPS and take up as many options in it as possible to maximise your return

The_Conductor

fastrac wrote:

Do up the cottage and go for the REPS and take up as many options in it as possible to maximise your return

If you're going down this road- get professional advice re: REPS..... The obligations under REPS 4 are very different from those under 1-3, and a lot more onerous.

cottage5

Read the Complete Book of Self Sufficiency by John Seymour and Home Farm by Paul Hieney for guidance. My husband and I are starting on our smallholding and I was raised on one. My mother did everything from Bee keeping to Goat Milking (not my favourite) and vegetable gardening to preserving. My Dad helped when needed.

John Seymour shows how self sufficiency is possible on only 5 acres and he started out in Wexford after his divorce on a rented run down smallholding. Google his name and you will get his information from Killowen. Don't mind the nay-sayers if you are going to work and your partner is up for the challange the two of you can not only get by but prosper. Free land is always nice!

djmc

You could live off this land or even less growing veg meat etc
there would be a bit of work planting weeding digging veg fruit etc
You would have to have a herd number and proper handling facilitys to keep animals and would have to pay vet for testing cattle and the butcher for killing and cutting up the meat.
You would probably have too much food but not much varity
imo you would need a job off farm for other needs such as morgage or bank payments upgrading car, holidays ,kids nappies,collage washing,esb you get the pitcure it really depends on your situation
Then with a full time job you may not have a lot time for all the work on the farm

ivanthehunter

is not the case that live stock which is for family consumption only is not required to have a herd number.? If you have your own hens and you dont sell the eggs you dont need to register them i think- and it similar with a butchered pig if you carry out the butchering yourself you and your family are the only group that may eat such a beast, dont even think you are allowed give it away let alone sell any.
honey might be a small exception to these rules on selling (i dont know for sure) but you prob need insurance against swarms attacking people and thats prob another 20 euro a year

brianthebard

OP when you said you wanted to live off of the farm did you mean in a self sufficency, grow everything yourself way, or in a how much can I earn from this way?

CJhaughey

ivanthehunter wrote: »

is not the case that live stock which is for family consumption only is not required to have a herd number.? If you have your own hens and you dont sell the eggs you dont need to register them i think- and it similar with a butchered pig if you carry out the butchering yourself you and your family are the only group that may eat such a beast, dont even think you are allowed give it away let alone sell any.
honey might be a small exception to these rules on selling (i dont know for sure) but you prob need insurance against swarms attacking people and thats prob another 20 euro a year

NO all pigs are required to be part of the NPITS which monitors the sale and movement of pigs in the state from birth to the abbatoir.
You are not allowed to homekill the animal has to be slaughtered by a licensed abbatoir.

RebeccaA

Thats right all pigs need to be under NPITS. Its just a case of a simple application form and a farm visit to get your number though. Actually the law on homekill is not clear and has not been tested in court. There are contradictions in the law. There is EU law that states all animals must be killed in an abattoir but there is as far as I can make out the allowance in Irish law for a farmer to 'kill the occasional pig at home' for home consumption only. This was quoted to a member of the Irish Goat Producers Asociation in email communication with the dept for agriculture when enquiring about the law around home kill of goats.

By the way, EU law also states that butchers by law are not allowed to cut, process (eg make sausages) or package meat, only sell it once obtained from a meat processing plant!

I understand there might also be allowance to kill livestock on the farm if it has been injured beyond help.

We live on a smallholding and there are many opportunities to make a living from it. Either selling your produce direct to consumers or adding value to such things as goats milk to sell your own cheese. Farmers markets are a great outlet. A local cheese seller offered to take cheese from us, but we keep it for ourselves! They also offered to take me on a tour around various cheese makers so I could see their set up. We make our own air dried ham, salami, cured rashers and sausages, but we don't sell any. However I've been contacted quite a few times by private individuals and restaurant owners who are interested in buying it. The way we make ends meet is hubby works part time making kids wooden toys and we also run courses on rearing pigs for the table, goats, and smallholding visits. Our outgoings are minimal. We want to stay small and enjoy our own produce.

By the way, starting tomorrow its National Downshifting Week. http://www.downshiftingweek.com/

CarlaAnkiah

Hi everyone,

Just wondered if anybody had any tips on where to look for a smallholding/stable yard to rent/lease in Ireland. I am desperately seeking a smallholding with at least 3acres of grazing land or alternatively a stable yard. I am moving over with my 2 large ponies and my dog and have kept a smallholding in the past in England.
Hoping somebody can help as I have been scouring the net for weeks and having no luck and I am getting closer to the proposed moving date with no accomodation to move to

Help PLEASE!!!!