Opinions - Mackie Gear

crosstownk

Right - heres the scenario.............

5 piece rock covers band. We do Thin Lizzy, Queen, Bon Jovi, G'n'R , AC/DC etc, etc. Vocals (x3), guitar, keyboards, bass and drums (acoustic). Our current set up is desk, amps and speakers. Our current Behringer desk is about to collapse on it's knees and we're gonna replace it with a Mackie 16 track.

We'd also like to go for active speakers to lessen the load to be carried to and from a gig. So we were thinking of these:
Mackie SRM 450
or maybe
Mackie 1521SR

With a
Mackie Subwoofer

and two lower grade active stage monitors.

What I'd like to know is a) is this good enough for a loud 5 peice who play in pubs mostly and b) any experience anyone has of these Mackie units.

Any and all input of a constructive nature will be gratefully appreciated.

frobisher

I haven't actually used that Mackie kit but my experience with it has always been that it's a good solid brand. Can I ask why you want a sub woofer?

crosstownk

Subwoofer - for kick drum, keyboards and to reinforce the bass guitar.

frobisher

I guess there are always a few ways to make the same thing work, but, if it was me in a scenario like that I'd probably be looking at the bass amp to do most of the work for the bass guitar. Unless it's a bad amp, it's probably going to do a better job than that sub unit with the PA. As for putting the kick through it the sub unit? Great idea! I always find that some kick through the PA on pub gigs etc, really helps the sound feel full and energetic, but surprisingly it's something a lot of bands neglect to do.

crosstownk

Yeah the kick thru the PA sounds quite good. I prefer the bass guitar to run thru the PA unless its a big Trace Elliot amp (or similar)! A small amp just needs some help, if you know what I mean.

Eoin Madsen

I haven't used any of the speakers, but Mackie mixers have always seemed pretty dependable to me.

Tuitser

Makcie make good quality gear! They`re not the best but they`re far from the worst! I would say they are above average if your comparing it to most pub/club PA systems!

However, if I was doing sound for you guys I would say no straight away! For a 5-piece rock band you need headroom, especially with 3 vocals! I would want at least 3k in the rig! I agree with getting an active rig, but have you looked at HK Audio rigs? They do a very good deal for bout €5000! The desk your after is fine but the pre-amps won`t be brilliant! Take a look at the Onyx 1640! You will also need a compressor and a gate if you want a good drum sound!

The kick drum NEEDS a sub and not just one but I would want four for a rock band with three vocals! Yadont need to use the volume up full but you need the power to stop feedback etc. It makes things so much easier when you have good gear! I know it`s a lot of money but if you invest €10 000 in a good P.A. and rent it out you will make a profit!

crosstownk

Thanks for the reply's guys.

Tuitser, I'll check into those HK rigs. I agree with you on headroom but we gotta make a compromise between power and the physical size of the rig - not easy! Decisions, decisions...............

Eoin Madsen

Tuitser wrote:

However, if I was doing sound for you guys I would say no straight away! For a 5-piece rock band you need headroom, especially with 3 vocals! I would want at least 3k in the rig! I agree with getting an active rig, but have you looked at HK Audio rigs? They do a very good deal for bout €5000! The desk your after is fine but the pre-amps won`t be brilliant! Take a look at the Onyx 1640! You will also need a compressor and a gate if you want a good drum sound!

2.5-3k would be preferable alright. I'd disagree that a compressor or gates are required for a good drum sound though. You need them for certain drum sounds, not all.

The kick drum NEEDS a sub and not just one but I would want four for a rock band with three vocals!

Have you ever muted the tops in a two-way system and listened to how much of a vocal actually goes into a sub? They're really not at all relevent in themselves when it comes down to vocal headroom.

Yadont need to use the volume up full but you need the power to stop feedback etc.

Having more or less power doesn't change the feedback threshold. The "volume" of the powerstages in the system should ideally be trimmed to match the output of the mixer. Anything else is just wasting headroom.

I know it`s a lot of money but if you invest €10 000 in a good P.A. and rent it out you will make a profit!

It's a lot more trouble than you'd think with the various legal ins and outs involved in the rental business.

It makes things so much easier when you have good gear!

This, I can't dispute.

Tuitser

Eoin, I never said ya need a compressor and a gate for all drum sounds, but in this context (ROCK) it would help greatly! You could get away with a VERY well tuned kit if it was damped properly but again, it makes things much easier to have the gear!

I know the vocals don`t go to the subs (much) but if you have four subs and put the kick, bass, some snare, toms, and guitars in them then it leaves plenty of room for the vocals, hats, cymbals, keys etc. in the tops!

I was just putting ideas in his head by mentioning the rental business! I own one myself and we use Mackie desks and a HK rig! They are tough, durable, and have a pretty sweet sound by club standard! It`s not that much work to get it up and running! Just sign on for tax and sign your business name etc.

Finally, a good backline is priceless! If you spend a good few quid on your amps and guitar and spend a good deal of time learning about EQ (boosting mids for solos etc.) and reverb, delay etc. then it will take an awful lot of pressure off you when your mixing a band!

Good luck!

crosstownk

OK - You guys seem know a thing a two here so I'll give some additional info and try to be brief.

Our current rig consists of
1. The Behringer desk (but its heading for the grave).
2. Behringer 2-4 way X-over - running in 2 way stereo mode. X-over frequency is about 120Hz.
3. Behringer 33-band stereo EQ.
4. 1400W amp which powers the tops. The tops consist of 2 12" drivers and a CD horn each.
5. 2400W amp which powers a pair of 15" subs.
6. 500W amp powering 2x 2-way stage monitors.

All of the above is mounted in a rack that weighs over 100kg :eek:

Note that the two amps don't run at full power as they are overrated for the speakers. This rig sounds quite well and nobody in the band is unhappy with the sound. It's just that it takes 4 cars to transport the rig and instruments and we really need to reduce the physical size. Nor do we wish to buy a van. We are prepared to spend up to €5k MAX on upgrading/replacing the current rig. We don't have any feedback problems or any clipping problems. The sound is clear and free from distortion. Like I say - we need to reduce the physical size. Active seemes like a good idea - but also seems to lack the power we currently have.

We're not a pro band, but we gig at least 5 or 6 times a month and we're booked out for the next 3 months - so the current sound can't be all that bad. But its becoming a pain in the ar$e having to lug the rig around the place.

Or am I just asking for the impossibe?

Eoin Madsen

Do you know what the speakers are rated for in RMS or continuous wattage? The same for the poweramps?

Tuitser wrote:

Eoin, I never said ya need a compressor and a gate for all drum sounds, but in this context (ROCK) it would help greatly! You could get away with a VERY well tuned kit if it was damped properly but again, it makes things much easier to have the gear!

Dampening kills the sound of a well tuned kit, imo, in rock music or otherwise. It really depends what sound you're going for, simple as that. I've seen people use dynamic processing to fix drum sounds that they should have been fixing with EQ. It can turn into a poor mans route to a mediocre drum sound. For a starter, I'd just be inclined to recommend going without for a while before starting to get in to dynamics. Just my opinion.

I know the vocals don`t go to the subs (much) but if you have four subs and put the kick, bass, some snare, toms, and guitars in them then it leaves plenty of room for the vocals, hats, cymbals, keys etc. in the tops!

But there's really no point in thinking about it in that way, it's just misleading. You put low frequencies (defined by the crossover) of everything into the subwoofers. And the mid and highs of everying into the tops. Simply having a crossover gives a much clearer sound. But once you have that, the power of the LFs will have no impact either direct or indirect on the audible vocal headroom.

Increasing the number of speakers or power to the subs will not give more vocal headroom.

I was just putting ideas in his head by mentioning the rental business! I own one myself and we use Mackie desks and a HK rig! They are tough, durable, and have a pretty sweet sound by club standard! It`s not that much work to get it up and running! Just sign on for tax and sign your business name etc.

Yeah, and insurance etc.

Tuitser

Listen, I`m not going to ruin the thread by turning it into a deconstructive argument between two people that know their stuff anyway! So, if ya carry it on Eoin, I will burn your house down!! Ha Ha! Only messin!

I understand all your points and Im not disagreeing with ya but I was just trying to put it simply for him!

I agree that dampening kills a kit sound but its down to taste! A lot of 60`s bands recorded with carpet on the kit and want an extremely dead sound! Most 80`s bands have a gated snare with plenty of reverb! Most rock bands today go with a compressed and gated kick but I agree that he should start out with nothing and learn to get a nice sound with minimal equipment!

I didn`t think he knew too much bout crossovers (no offense) so I didnt want to ramble on about them but no it doesnt change the headroom, however, if you have no crossover and you by more tops, that increases the headroom!

Insurance is only a few thousand a year and I run a studio and two practce rooms so mine covers them all together so Im saving money but trust me, if ya know your stuff and have nice gear, ya can make good money back on your investment!

If I had a budget of €5000 I would buy two HK Audio Actor DX subs and two full range tops! I wouldnt use a crossover! I would buy the Mackie desk ya suggested and a parametric EQ! I would leave effects and dynamics out! Ya will need some nice mics too...SM58 will do but I`d go for Audix OM5!

I would sell all that gear and never buy any Behringer ever again! I would also get 3 300w powered monitors! But thats just my opinion!

crosstownk

All figures are in RMS - to the best of my knowledge. All mics are SM58s. Wouldn't use anything else. I'm gonna check out the HK stuff and see if I can rent it first to be 100% sure.

Tuitser - out of curiosity, what tops would you recommend?

Eoin Madsen

Switching to active speakers is only going to redistribute the weight. Ultimately, you're talking about the same net weight, give or take a few kilos. If you have several perfectly good amps, I'd suggest you just find some more appropriate passive speakers to match with them. Pay close attention to whether you're getting wattage values in RMS or peak etc, and to the impedences. These things are very important when matching amps and speakers.

There's no logical reason not to use a crossover.

Tuitser

If your problem is with the weight of the rig then Eoin is right! The amps in active speakers weigh a tonne and the weight of an amp rack is about the same as the speakers so you`re not lessening the weight at all! However, I thought your problem was with the size? If this is he case then an active rig will help!

LegacyUser

Dampening kills the sound of a well tuned kit, imo, in rock music or otherwise. It really depends what sound you're going for, simple as that. I've seen people use dynamic processing to fix drum sounds that they should have been fixing with EQ. It can turn into a poor mans route to a mediocre drum sound. For a starter, I'd just be inclined to recommend going without for a while before starting to get in to dynamics. Just my opinion.



Should you not be getting the sound at source right before you use EQ or dynamics processing also additive EQ can give you more problems.

Eoin Madsen

the demo place wrote:

Should you not be getting the sound at source right before you use EQ or dynamics processing also additive EQ can give you more problems.

That's pretty much what I was getting at. Nearly every "solution" to a problem is a compromise. Being practical though, there's always EQ in mixing, unless you have an unlimited choice of mics, preamps, drums, and drum tunings. And when the hell is that ever going to happen?

Soundman

Eoin Madsen wrote:

That's pretty much what I was getting at. Nearly every "solution" to a problem is a compromise. Being practical though, there's always EQ in mixing, unless you have an unlimited choice of mics, preamps, drums, and drum tunings. And when the hell is that ever going to happen?

Only in your dreams mate. I know that is what you dream of every night. Haha.