Union funds on bus to camp

panda100

This weekend sees the union paying 250 euro for a bus to bring some members to the rossport solidarity camp in Mayo.
There was not enough UCD students intrested in using this bus so there is at least four or so seats being used by non-UCD members. This isnt a thread to discuss wether you back the shell to sea campaign or not. Its a thread where you the union members can say wether you agree with the union spending 250 euro on a bus to bring a couple of members and some non UCD members to Mayo for a camp?
Im not going to add a poll cos its a messy but as a class rep Id like to know whether the general student body would be behind this sort of expenditure or not?

Edited to say there is at least 6 free seats now on the bus due to lack of intrest which will be filled by non UCD students

TheVan

Panda, I think you can pretty much guarantee that the vast majority of UCD students would have a problem with the Union paying for students to go to Rossport, regardless of their views on the Shell situation.

Its a disgrace and I will bring it up with any senior union member I meet and I hope everyone else will do the same.

Stepherunie

Unfortunately they won't be able to do anything - a vote was taken at SU Council last Monday and it was decided to support the payment towards the bus - SU coucil last year voted to have a mandate to support the shell to sea campaign so that was partly it.

Also it was also partly to facilitate some people who are also going to class rep training as the dates for training were finalised without the knowledge of the rossport thing.

Not saying either which way whether or not i agree - these were just the reasons at council for it.

hullaballoo

Why is it that the fucking Students' Union won't do what the students want?

Stepherunie

I guess it's a case that that's what they're elected representatives wanted on there behalf. I myself didn't know my classes views thus didn't vote on it but others did and that's how the decision was made.

TheVan

Its this kind of shít that really pisses me off.

That €250 could have been donated to Concern who would have saved lives with it


And the Union gives out about Hugh Brady wasting money for his own self-gratification.....fúcking hypocrites

hullaballoo

So what you're saying is that you get elected to represent your class, then don't know their views so don't vote? What fantastic representation!

If you asked any sensible person was it acceptable to use Union funds to send some people off to Rossport to support the campaign against Shell, they would say, "where's the fooking swimming pool?"

Stepherunie

Yes I didn't vote, and I'm glad I didn't my class express no views on this issue - why should I enforce views on them? Personally I don't agree with it either - I would have much preferred the money was donated to the student hardship fund or a charity but the decision was well won - even if I had voted it would not have changed the outcome in anyway.

hullaballoo

No, it wasn't really a personal attack on you. In fact, I would commend you for not representing your class for an issue on which they may not have had a standing. What bugs me is that most SU officers and reps use the Union to further their personal political vendetta. The sabats are entitled to do this, because when you vote for them, you're effectively voting for their policies.

However, the class reps are voted for generally on issues such as class trips/parties. I don't think this is right. I think they should make it clear where they stand on certain political issues so that when the other idiots in the union decide to throw money out the window, we as students won't get a shock when we discover that Union funds are being thrown out the window by idiots.

pigeonbutler

Hulla is dead right on what class reps should be elected on. Unfortunately they do become popularity contests. It's hard to avoid that.

Panda although I'm of the same way of thinking as yourself on this issue you are misrepresenting the situation a wee bit. Council (of which you're a member!! although you couldn't make it on Monday) voted for this. So attacking the Union as an institution is the wrong way to deal with this. Democracy throws up sh1tty results sometimes.

I had a few issues with the way in which the motion went through. I made these clear at the time (even though I was clearly out of order, it had to be said ). The main reason it passed is because there was no opportunity for a proper debate to be held on it. The 2nd Radiography rep proposed that an immediate vote be taken, and it being half 9 she was able to get support from a majority (because they were all thirsty for pints!). So due to a quirk in the rule of council (that none of us had ever noticed before) it was possible for there to be 3 speakers for the motion with only 1 allowed speak against.

Just to stress that is not normal nor was there any bias. It was really the result of 2 things:

1. A lot of people wanting Council to finish early and thus not wanting a debate on an issue they didn't personally care about.
2. The quirk in standing orders I mentioned. Which I think we're going to look at closing.

As for point 1 I'd really like to say to anyone on council that if you don't care about a motion and want to get out of there, then you know where the door is. Don't try stifle a debate others might care about. When motions that are highly unpopular with the broader UCD community get passed it lowers the respect the average student has for the SU. So don't vote for them. And don't vote to cut short debates on them.

Now maybe I'm overstating my skills as an orator but I was denied the chance to speak on this (as were quite a few others) and I think that quite a few people would have been swayed if there had been more than just one lone voice against the motion.

abelard

stepherunie wrote:

Yes I didn't vote, and I'm glad I didn't my class express no views on this issue - why should I enforce views on them? Personally I don't agree with it either - I would have much preferred the money was donated to the student hardship fund or a charity but the decision was well won - even if I had voted it would not have changed the outcome in anyway.

I don't think I fully agree with this. Yes, a class rep should seek out opinions of their constituents and follow any mandate given. But surely in voting for someone to be their representative constituents have to expect some limited degree of discretion. I'm not applying that to everything, like the policy setting debates on abortion and that kind of thing, whereby I feel a mandate should be sought or else no vote made

However, as a class rep, you are representing X number of students that have made a monetary contribution to the running of the union, and in a case like this whereby distribution of that money is in question (on a small scale at least), i think it's important for a representative of any given group of students to be sure to have a say on behalf of their constituents. If you have a mandate, all the better, and you should by all means go out of your way to get one, but if not you should use your best discretion and later inform your constituents. If they endorse your position, good, and if not, they should hold you accountable.

Sorry if that arguement isn't totally logical, it made sense in my head but maybe I didn't articulate well enough.

pigeonbutler wrote:

As for point 1 I'd really like to say to anyone on council that if you don't care about a motion and want to get out of there, then you know where the door is. Don't try stifle a debate others might care about. When motions that are highly unpopular with the broader UCD community get passed it lowers the respect the average student has for the SU. So don't vote for them. And don't vote to cut short debates on them.

That's a very good point. I think 9(a)'s (sending a motion straight to a vote) are passed far too often without proper consideration by a rep who just feels a bit tired of the debate. I think a 9(a) should only be proposed, and moreso passed, if a debate is becoming repetitive, circular, unproductive or too personal (and there's probably a few more criteria too). If you really dont care about the issue, just leave, and if your feeling tired maybe just take a walk around outsied for a few minutes and return for the vote rather than stifling what could become an important debate.

panda100 wrote:

This weekend sees the union paying 250 euro for a bus to bring some members to the rossport solidarity camp in Mayo.
There was not enough UCD students intrested in using this bus so there is at least four or so seats being used by non-UCD members. This isnt a thread to discuss wether you back the shell to sea campaign or not. Its a thread where you the union members can say wether you agree with the union spending 250 euro on a bus to bring a couple of members and some non UCD members to Mayo for a camp?
Im not going to add a poll cos its a messy but as a class rep Id like to know whether the general student body would be behind this sort of expenditure or not?

Edited to say there is at least 6 free seats now on the bus due to lack of intrest which will be filled by non UCD students

As to the original issue, i think a no vote would have been appropriate (although I must say, since I attended the council, that if I was a rep I probably would have voted yes at the time, and there's an illustration of the problems with flippant 9(a)'s). What must be remembered is that the money is being paid as it is class reps who want to go, and they also want to return for class rep training sp they have to be back in time. If class rep training was not on I assume we wouldn't be forking out money for the bus.

I fully support Shell to Sea and commend the views of those who wish to support the campaign in person. However, this is not part of UCD's mandate. Just because we do not send representative's, it does not mean we are breaking this mandate, we can still support Shell to Sea. By funding the trip, I fell that UCD students union makes the protestors official representatives of the union, whch I don't feel there is the need to spend €250 on since we wouldn't break the mandate by not sending them.

At least that's waht I'd say if my class rep asked me what way to vote ;P I'm not saying I dont want UCD representatives at the camp, i just dont personally think it's necessary, but if the majority of students were in favour of sending them, i wouldn't have a problem with their presence there.

Anyway sorry for all that, I wrote it in a bit of a rush, so any spelling malfunctions or broken sentences will have to go unchecked.

Stepherunie

abelard wrote:

I don't think I fully agree with this. Yes, a class rep should seek out opinions of their constituents and follow any mandate given. But surely in voting for someone to be their representative constituents have to expect some limited degree of discretion. I'm not applying that to everything, like the policy setting debates on abortion and that kind of thing, whereby I feel a mandate should be sought or else no vote made

However, as a class rep, you are representing X number of students that have made a monetary contribution to the running of the union, and in a case like this whereby distribution of that money is in question (on a small scale at least), i think it's important for a representative of any given group of students to be sure to have a say on behalf of their constituents. If you have a mandate, all the better, but if not you should use your best discretion and later inform your constituents. If they endorse your position, good, and if not, they should hold you accountable.

Having just spoken to my class about this issue they have expressed no opinion on the subject in the majority. One felt the money should not have been given others felt whilst the support the shell to sea campaign they had no particular opinion on the bus issue. Thus based on that I should have voted against the motion - this would have not changed the outcome in any way and considering I've spent the past week incurring the wrath of the class for things that are in no way my fault I'd rather not cause more for my pleasure.

panda100

pigeonbutler wrote:

Panda although I'm of the same way of thinking as yourself on this issue you are misrepresenting the situation a wee bit. Council (of which you're a member!! although you couldn't make it on Monday) voted for this..

I had an mcq at 7 that evening in Blackrock that evening! So really Council was the last thing on my mind that evening.
Anyway, I have taken this matter into my own hands and If I have anything to do with it that 250euro will be paid back to the union in no time.

singingstranger

Stepherunie wrote:

... based on that I should have voted against the motion - this would have not changed the outcome in any way and considering I've spent the past week incurring the wrath of the class for things that are in no way my fault I'd rather not cause more for my pleasure.

Steph, do you accept that if everybody on Council had done the same thing the outcome could have been very different indeed?
(* obviously this was an Emergency Motion but should it have been a regular motion with a weeks' notice... )

To be honest, I think this motion is symptomatic of most of the problems with Council - which are that its votes, and the consequential directions that the Union ultimately takes, are entirely to do with Class Reps ignoring their Constitutional duty to consult with their constituents for every single motion. The idea of having a parity in the number of constituents for each Rep is supposed to make Council votes act like an electoral college - but every Rep is supposed to vote exactly as the majority of the people they represent tell them to. There's a good reason why the deadline for submitting motions is a full week before Council meetings, and there's a damn good reason why I had to spend every alternate Wednesday out of Council in front of a laptop sending out a hundred or more emails to Councillors and publishing the stories on the newswire - it was so that Councillors could liaise with their constituents and get THEM to vote on how things were supposed to be.

Aside from the drudgery of having to type stuff out, the one thing that always frustrated me beyond belief was that there was even ever a need for debate at all. People are supposed to have been told how to vote. And - this will be unusually blunt of me - I'm fed up with situations where people run for Class Rep and bargain themselves off with their class, agreeing to stay out of their way if they're allowed carte blanche to do whatever they like. I know this has been the genuine case in at least one instance, and the result is the Rep in question having sat on Council and put forward motions that - if mood on the ground, on Boards or anywhere else is to be acknowledged - would be shot down immediately by the bulk of their constituents. I would LOVE if there was a system where Class Reps could only be afforded voting privileges if they could prove (collect the signatures of X number of classmates, perhaps) they had liaised with their constituents on how they were to vote.

I'd like everyone reading this - all the non-Reps, although the new ones can include themselves too - to think about this for just a second. How many of you can honestly say you've always known the identity of your class/Council rep? And how many of you have ever had your Rep come to one of your classes, tell you what motions were up for the next Council meeting, and seek a mandate on how to vote at them? EVERY Class Rep (not every Councillor, but EVERY Class Rep) is supposed to do this, as part of their duty to inform their constituents of the goings-on of the Union (Article 8 of the UCDSU Constitution).

Well, I urge every last one of you to pop along to www.ucdsu.net, and find out who your Council Rep is. And hold them accountable to the relative perks that being a Councillor holds (and while I'm at it, I might say that Chakar, I was irked beyond belief when you were bragging about being in the VIP Section at the Fresher's Ball which consisted basically of "Union people" - you know full well that the cliquish air of the Union is the LAST thing we want to publicise). If your Councillor hasn't been doing their job, then MAKE them do it - or have them gotten rid of for someone who will.

Every motion is supposed to be like a referendum. Those are the rules. So either change the rules and make the apathy of the Class Reps legal, or change the Reps for people who will actually CONSULT you on its policy. Being a Class Rep is NOT an implicit permission to vote as the Rep wishes on Council motions - it's the privilege of proposing motions on behalf of your constituents, and for voting as they want you to.

Frankly, this culture of people being elected on the basis of popularity or ability to organise a good party needs to be really shot in the ass once and for all. A party is only one good night or weekend. Complaints on Union policy go on forever. People need to examine for themselves which they really want more of.

bluepencilcase

Because this was presented as an emergency motion Reps were not able to consult their classes.

singingstranger

bluepencilcase wrote:

Because this was presented as an emergency motion Reps were not able to consult their classes.

Point taken, but you could just as easily take all the points and apply them to the motion at the first Council of 2005/06.

Chakar

I was the only one who spoke against the motion because I think 250 euro was a waste of money and I personally don't support the Shell to Sea campaign obviously I'm not going to talk about it as this isn't the right thread for it as Panda said.

The vote on the motion took place at nine o'clock not half nine as I distinctly remember and to be honest there aren't many class reps going to it basically the lefty class reps are going such as Enda who proposed the motion in the first place and Paul who was the seconder.

For the record nearly all the sabbatical officers voted against this motion and basically a lot of the class reps there were newbies and so they can be forgiven this once.I'm not a class rep but that doesn't impede me from speaking for or against a motion.

singingstranger wrote:

Chakar, I was irked beyond belief when you were bragging about being in the VIP Section at the Fresher's Ball which consisted basically of "Union people"

I did not brag, I stated the fact.It says a lot that you did not tell me via email instead putting it on Boards.ie.Anyway anybody can understand why we had a VIP section as I did specifically highlight that we didn't get free drinks or anything.But thats your opinion.

Point taken, but you could just as easily take all the points and apply them to the motion at the first Council of 2005/06.

Which half of all class reps now weren't a member.

Jonny Arson

panda100 wrote:

This weekend sees the union paying 250 euro for a bus to bring some members to the rossport solidarity camp in Mayo.
There was not enough UCD students intrested in using this bus so there is at least four or so seats being used by non-UCD members. This isnt a thread to discuss wether you back the shell to sea campaign or not. Its a thread where you the union members can say wether you agree with the union spending 250 euro on a bus to bring a couple of members and some non UCD members to Mayo for a camp?
Im not going to add a poll cos its a messy but as a class rep Id like to know whether the general student body would be behind this sort of expenditure or not?

It's not the first time our union is wasting our money on non-educational matters isn't it? If I recall correctly didn't the UCDSU pay fees for members who were arrested during protests?

I have to appluad UCDSU for doing such a fine job of alienating the normal everyday student, the vast amount of vacant council seats is proof if you ever need it. Piss our money up the wall for your political careers why don't you. In saying this I back the Shell to Sea campaign but as I've said time and time again, don't use and abuse your membership of our union for your political careers, protest on your own accord.

singingstranger

Chakar wrote:

I did not brag, I stated the fact.It says a lot that you did not tell me via email instead putting it on Boards.ie.Anyway anybody can understand why we had a VIP section as I did specifically highlight that we didn't get free drinks or anything.But thats your opinion.

I don't intend at all to get into a personal argument with you, Conor, and I'm sorry if you take offence at my opinion, but my irkiness is also down to the fact that, if there weren't any perks like free drinks, then frankly the section shouldn't have existed. What purpose does it serve to have a cordoned off section of the venue where SU types can talk to each other without being bothered by the hoi polloi? It doesn't do very much to serve the idea of the Reps and Union people in general simply being a fellow student and only perpetuates the clique image of the Union even more.

Chakar wrote:

Which half of all class reps now weren't a member.

Don't get me wrong, this isn't a gripe based on current circumstances, this is a longstanding one. The point still remains that people weren't asking their constituents for a mandate on how to vote, which fails their Constitutional responsibility to regularly inform their classmates on Union activity.

Zane from MTV2 wrote:

It's not the first time our union is wasting our money on non-educational matters isn't it? If I recall correctly didn't the UCDSU pay fees for members who were arrested during protests?

Thank you, Zane, for a classic example of a motion that went completely by the noses of almost the entire populace of UCD until the Class Reps had voted on it. Were YOU consulted by your Rep on how they should vote on this motion? Were ANY of you approached by your Councillor?

**EDIT - this, again, was an emergency motion, and so it's naturally difficult for any liaising with constituents, but this was a motion that was publicised days in advance of the meeting. My apologies for flying off on it when it's clearly not something that in this case can be helped, but my brain was fried after the meeting anyway - have a look at the minutes and see why. http://www.ucdsu.net/attachments/jul2006/20060419.htm **

Grrr... headache. Red Bull + vodka + Jägermeister + carte blanche Class Reps = unhappy Gav.

Vainglory

panda100 wrote:

I had an mcq at 7 that evening in Blackrock that evening! So really Council was the last thing on my mind that evening.
Anyway, I have taken this matter into my own hands and If I have anything to do with it that 250euro will be paid back to the union in no time.

Eh, just to pre-empt what I think you might be doing.. you can't mandate individual members of the Union to do anything (e.g. pay back any money.) You can only mandate sabbatical officers (and even then sometimes they wriggle out of it.)

Chakar

singingstranger wrote:

I don't intend at all to get into a personal argument with you, Conor, and I'm sorry if you take offence at my opinion, but my irkiness is also down to the fact that, if there weren't any perks like free drinks, then frankly the section shouldn't have existed. What purpose does it serve to have a cordoned off section of the venue where SU types can talk to each other without being bothered by the hoi polloi? It doesn't do very much to serve the idea of the Reps and Union people in general simply being a fellow student and only perpetuates the clique image of the Union even more.

I don't take offence Gav.Don't worry about that but I suppose I see your logic but anyway it wasn't just the SU people it was like the auditors of the big societies who were there like Conor Farrell, Ross McGuire etc.

singingstranger wrote:

Don't get me wrong, this isn't a gripe based on current circumstances, this is a longstanding one. The point still remains that people weren't asking their constituents for a mandate on how to vote, which fails their Constitutional responsibility to regularly inform their classmates on Union activity.

Grrr... headache. Red Bull + vodka + Jägermeister + carte blanche Class Reps = unhappy Gav.

Yeah but it can be difficult when you send out emails which I did three times and only get one reply back from plus 600 people I'm afraid.And I'm not going to do what one person is in favour of which is not fully democratic

Mr.Nice Guy

hullaballoo wrote:

Why is it that the fucking Students' Union won't do what the students want?

The whole place comes across unbelievably anti-democratic. As if the socialist/marxist hierarchy sit around wondering how they can save the world next - whie wasting a lot of money in the process.

I personally believe the whole structure of the UCDSU is a poison on this campus. There needs to be a massive revamp of the union to prevent this extreme leftist minority from doing whatever the bloody hell they want to.

Chakar

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

I personally believe the whole structure of the UCDSU is a poison on this campus. There needs to be a massive revamp of the union to prevent this extreme leftist minority from doing whatever the bloody hell they want to.

There aren't that many leftys this year but they had a big influence last year so I reckon it'll be grand once the newbie class reps get the cop on.

singingstranger

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

There needs to be a massive revamp of the union to prevent this extreme leftist minority from doing whatever the bloody hell they want to.

This probably wouldn't even be necessary if the students on the ground were better at holding their Class Reps accountable, and if the Reps themselves - as a general rule - liaised with their classes more often.

I'm not going to say much more because (1) I'm running out of coins for the cybercafe and (2) it would be repetition.

panda100

Just to say I meant this thread not to be about technicalities of the union and mandates etc etc
Its basically just a yes or no question. Do you think the union should have given 250 euro for this bus,yes or no?

Oh by the way,Jane ...your pre-empting is wrong:)

hullaballoo

I must say from the outset that I think this thread to be valuable. I know it's heated and has potential to turn into a flame fest, so I would urge people to keep their civility hats on.

I'm also going to issue a mandate of my own. I'll start an affiliation thread which will be stickied. You will enumerate your ties with the Students' Union before you post in SU-related threads. That refers to both past and present ties. This is a somewhat fascist security measure based on a previous issue that arose during Scully's presidency. More information here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=206793.

That's all from a mod perspective. I have edited my best post link for UCD in my signature.

tintinr35

a bit off this topic but related to this situation
i think its a disgrace the protests that the union were and are continuing to hold outside the shell garage in donnybrook, this is someones business and therefore livelehood, if i was driving along the dual carriage way and i saw a protest going on outside a garage i would most definatly go to the next one, the people who own that garage presumeably operate it under a franchise and have NOTHING to do with the corrib gas pipe line. this is a STUDENTS union and what may i ask does this have to do with our education. its high time that the SU stopped jumping on every available bandwaggon and deal with the issues that are really effecting the student body of ucd, its unfair that when you enter the college you automatically become a member of the union i for one would 100% quit the union, its run by a minorty of people who claim to act with a mandate for the majority when clearly the do not have it. i am sick of all their bull

Chakar

tintinr35 wrote:

a bit off this topic but related to this situation
i think its a disgrace the protests that the union were and are continuing to hold outside the shell garage in donnybrook, this is someones business and therefore livelehood, if i was driving along the dual carriage way and i saw a protest going on outside a garage i would most definatly go to the next one, the people who own that garage presumeably operate it under a franchise and have NOTHING to do with the corrib gas pipe line. this is a STUDENTS union and what may i ask does this have to do with our education. its high time that the SU stopped jumping on every available bandwaggon and deal with the issues that are really effecting the student body of ucd, its unfair that when you enter the college you automatically become a member of the union i for one would 100% quit the union, its run by a minorty of people who claim to act with a mandate for the majority when clearly the do not have it. i am sick of all their bull

That protest isn't mandated by the Students Union and the people there are affliated to the union but protest there in their own capacity.Also its Labour Youth and others who have been protesting there.

panda100

My own personal opinion on this is that there is no way the union should have given 250 euro for a bus trip down to an oil protest in mayo.

I would totally understand if there was a large percentage of the UCD population who wanted to go to this protest but they couldnt even get enough people to fill one bus so at least 6 seats were given to non UCD students.!Out of 20.000 students and they couldnt get enough to fill a bus:)

To me it shows a total disrespect and downright selfishness of those who asked for a personal bus shuttle from UCD to Mayo. Could they not have gone to Bus Eaireann,paid there 20euro and got the bus like everyone else has to when they want to go home to Mayo at the weekend?

I dont care about emergency motions and union mandates etc etc all I know is that if I was one of those people getting that bus I would feel really guilty right now.While I was sitiing on my nice warm cosy bus all the way to rossport Id be thinking about where the 250 euro I robbed from students could have been spent:
on more advertisment for niteline,helping someone out of a crisis who got mugged last night, paying for smear test for 20 at risk women or even giving class reps more materials to plan class partys and make UCD more of a community.

Red Alert

I was at a lecture on health and safety, where it said you can be prosecuted for an act or omission. I view some non-voting reps as committing a serious offence by their omission to prevent a squandrous waste of constituent's money.

Some people in UCD are not as lucky as myself and i suspect many members of the SU council. My part-time jobs in the summer paid for boozing and holidays. Many people have to hold down a part-time job in addition to their studies, they pay their SU levy (by compulsion too), and people vote to allow this hard earned money to be flushed down the toilet.

Shame on each and every member of the SU council who did not vote.

gubbie

Stepherunie wrote:

I guess it's a case that that's what they're elected representatives wanted on there behalf. I myself didn't know my classes views thus didn't vote on it but others did and that's how the decision was made.

Likewise. And theres no way anyone knew what their classes opinions were as it was an emergency motion. Motions like these are usually decided on the basis of people thinking "Hmm not whats best for my fellow man". That or everyone (well a large number) just vote the way some authoritive person votes.

I don't know what this really has to do with students so wonder whats the point in doing it? OK ya we have a mandate, grand so but again, how much does it have to do with students. We are the students union. I'm open to anyone telling me what?