Cycling Etiquette

Smoggy

I have just got a bike to get from my house to my new place of work, I have checked the root and part of it is running down quite a main road and has a bus lane and a few lanes for cars.

For my own safety I would like to use the path as its not really used by pedestrians, as I dont fancy being wedged between a bus and a few cars. Can bikes use the bus lane ? will I beable to use the path ?

copacetic

you can use bus lane, but not pavement, although if you want to there is very little chance of ever being stopped..

Smoggy

I hate to see bikes on pavements when people are walking on them , but using the bus lane doesnt leave me with a comfortable feeling. Guess I will give it a few goes and see how it feels.

Raam

what is the route?
Are there any alternatives to using the main road?
Sometimes it can be handier to take some of the side streets instead of the main roads. This might not be possible for you, but it's worth considering it if you can.

P

Smoggy

The route is from the Green Isle Hotel down to the Park West Business Park.
The route I was taking was the backway through the housing estate down onto a road I dont know the name of. Over the roundabouts and onto the main road that runs straight on down to Parkwest.

My knowledge of the roads is really poor , so i wouldn't know about alternate routes, but I would guess not.

Raam

http://www.dto.ie/web2006/jp.htm

the journey planner there might help.
I hope it doesn't just throw up the exact same route that you already take!

Smoggy

Thanks , cuts out a large chunk of the main road !

daymobrew

Smoggy wrote:

but using the bus lane doesnt leave me with a comfortable feeling.

I find Dublin Bus drivers on the Navan Road to be quite good (I know that you'll probably encounter BE and private buses). I've even had cause to write to the depot to praise them (it was actually a selfish 'investment' - I knew that they'd keep being nice if they got positive feedback and that I'd benefit from that).

Wear hi-viz gear and get a mirror for your bike. When a bus approaches you can be prepared and not taken by surprise.

blorg

You are perfectly entitled to use bus lanes _unless_ there is an adjoining cycle path (in whatever condition, shared with pedestrians or not.) In that case bus drivers have a license to kill you if they find you in the bus lane. In fairness it appears that only about 5-10% of drivers have successfully completed the tests to acquire said license...

DirkVoodoo

Whatever about bikes using footpaths, but this morning an elderly couple opted for the cycle lane (separated from footpath by grassy verge) which I found totally unnecessary and highly annoying. I didnt shout or anything, just up on the grass and around, nodding my head in annoyance.

Mucco

blorg wrote:

You are perfectly entitled to use bus lanes _unless_ there is an adjoining cycle path (in whatever condition, shared with pedestrians or not.) In that case bus drivers have a license to kill you if they find you in the bus lane.

I used to take the Stillorgan dualer into town. The bus lane is also signposted as a cycle lane, so I used it rather than the joke cycle lane on the footpath. I'd say about a quarter of the bus drivers didn't like it (beeps, overtaking too close, pulling in early etc...).

It may sound counter-intuitive; but the best way to put up with this sort of intimidatory driving is to cycle closer to the middle of the lane. This ensures the bus has to do a proper over-taking manoeuvre rather than just squeezing past, and it also allows you a little 'wobble' room if needed. It takes a bit of getting used to, but makes for much safer and more confident cycling.

M

BeardyGit

Mucco wrote:

I used to take the Stillorgan dualer into town. The bus lane is also signposted as a cycle lane, so I used it rather than the joke cycle lane on the footpath. I'd say about a quarter of the bus drivers didn't like it (beeps, overtaking too close, pulling in early etc...).

It may sound counter-intuitive; but the best way to put up with this sort of intimidatory driving is to cycle closer to the middle of the lane. This ensures the bus has to do a proper over-taking manoeuvre rather than just squeezing past, and it also allows you a little 'wobble' room if needed. It takes a bit of getting used to, but makes for much safer and more confident cycling.

M

I've argued at length with a friend who happens to be a driver for Dublin Bus working out of Donnybrook. He's been on the busses for 25 years now, most of these as a driver and a few now instructing new drivers. He tells me that it's only going to be a matter of time before a cyclist gets run over in a bus lane, in the false belief that the guy at the wheel behind him will show him any respect as a road user. He says it's absolutely stupid for any of us to take for granted that a bus driver is afraid of what might happen - That the complete idiots who are hitting the roads in command of a double decker now are a different breed from 20 years back.

He has a point. While a car will generally prove agile enough to either manouvre around a cyclist quickly when required, or stop when it's not possible to do so, a bus won't do so - You'll end up under it. As he pointed out to me, 20 years as a professional driver with a high vantage point means most bus drivers have witnessed traffic accidents, pedestrians and cyclist crushed by HGV's etc. That's the only thing that stop them getting too close to us. Unfortunately the new breed don't have that experience, that fear of something they older lads have seen, to keep them at a safe distance.

For me, I'll moan about the state of cycle lanes etc, but I won't get in the way of a bus if there's anywhere else I could be cycling.

blorg

I think Gil_Dub is right, I have been literally bullied out of trying to use the bus lanes where the cycle lane is unusable by bus drivers very deliberately turning into me. If I am in a bus lane I am always checking for a bus behind and get out of the way if they are in danger of catching me.

The only stretches on the N11 that I would ever need to use the bus lane _anyway_ are from Stillorgan to Foster's Avenue (downhill, generally outpace the buses there anyway) and where they are doing roadworks and have prominent "Cycle Lane Closed" notices between Foxrock Church and Leopardstown Road. I just don't trust that "cycle lane closed" means that a bus isn't going to try to kill me so if one comes along there I move out into the traffic lane and hog the middle of the lane until it goes past. Of course this drives motorists absolutely bonkers but I don't know exactly what else I am meant to do, I don't know which of the bus drivers are going to be the psychos.

daymobrew

blorg wrote:

I think Gil_Dub is right, I have been literally bullied out of trying to use the bus lanes where the cycle lane is unusable by bus drivers very deliberately turning into me.

Please consider reporting such action to TrafficWatch and/or Dublin Bus/whomever.

Smoggy

After reading the above im scared to get on my bike, paths it is for me and when I see a pedestrain I will get off and push the bike. Eventually I will get on the road, but there is no cycle path it might be some time.

blorg

daymobrew- I would but it honestly hasn't happened in probably about two years now as I just get the hell out of any buses way on the N11; it just isn't worth it as per Gil_Dub's post.

Smoggy- you are taking me up wrong. The road is not that bad at all. I am just talking about the specific situation as you find on the N11 where there is a bus lane AND a cycle path.

You should avoid bus lanes IF there is an adjoining cycle path as a small but significant percentage of bus drivers take it as a personal affront if they come across a cyclist in those circumstances and refuse to simply perform a normal overtaking manoeuvre. The QBC on the N11 is the particular issue here. (Note: I would _never_ cycle in the bus lane during rush hour when I might actually obstruct the bus; the two or three close pass+turnings into happened at light traffic times when the other two lanes were near empty and there would have been no problem for the driver getting past me.)

So in those circumstances IF there is an adjoining cycle path, use that. You don't have to get off if there is a pedestrian, just manoeuvre around them slowly and carefully, and if this isn't possible ring your bell (very useful) or ask them politely if you can pass.

If there isn't a cycle lane then use the bus lane, bus drivers DON'T tend to go psycho in these circumstances and are aware that you are allowed and meant to be there. Just be aware of the buses and careful as they pass. Cycling a few feet out from the kerb is a good idea as it forces them to overtake properly and gives you room to turn into if they don't.

A bus lane is actually often much preferable to a cycle lane as it is much wider and unlike cycle lanes is seems to have a much more effective car repellent effect, they are that much further away from you and actually don't tend to drive in it.

You shouldn't be cycling on the footpath, not a good idea at all. IF foot traffic is very light however you may get away with it. If you must do this be aware it's illegal and be sure to yield at all time to pedestrians.

Mucco

Gil_Dub wrote:

He tells me that it's only going to be a matter of time before a cyclist gets run over in a bus lane, in the false belief that the guy at the wheel behind him will show him any respect as a road user.

Incidents where cyclists have been hit from behind are very rare. Much more common are vehicles cutting across a cyclist to turn left, or pulling out in front - mostly at junctions. There are many more junctions when using a cycle path than when using a road, so roads are inherently safer, especially if you 'take lane' as I described above. See Franklin for details.
So, despite what you say, I would still advocate using the road.

M

blorg

Mucco- I know the statistics well, but have you actually tried cycling along the N11 QBC? If you had, for any length of time, you would know exactly what we are talking about here. It's _deliberate_ intimidation by a minority of bus drivers who overtake much too fast and too close and then deliberately turn into you. If you don't brake or swerve, you _will_ be hit. These drivers are not _trying_ to overtake you safely, they are trying to scare and intimidate you onto the cycle path.

Edit: I honestly believe that they just don't care, and if they hit you and kill you they genuinely think that "he should have been on the cycle path" will be a valid defence, case closed. It's also next to impossible to prove that they did it deliberately, it is just another "accident." And any compensation isn't coming out of their pocket.

The last time it happened to me it was an empty out of service bus at around 9pm (summer, plenty of light, _empty_ road) and he did it particularly dangerously, forcing me to brake hard while travelling at over 50km/h (downhill between Stillorgan and Foster's Avenue.) I had literally inches between him and my handlebar and inches between my wheel and the kerb. If I hadn't manged to brake as quickly as I did and get behind him he would have just squashed me into the kerb. I very nearly came off. I don't think he would have tried this had he been in service due to the potential witnesses.

It's not isolated to bus drivers, I have had it happen on other roads where there is an adjoining bad cycle path. Where I have caught up with the drivers they have all admitted that they did it deliberately because "you should have been on the cycle path." But it's a hell of a lot more dangerous when it's a bus doing it.

BeardyGit

Mucco wrote:

Incidents where cyclists have been hit from behind are very rare. Much more common are vehicles cutting across a cyclist to turn left, or pulling out in front - mostly at junctions. There are many more junctions when using a cycle path than when using a road, so roads are inherently safer, especially if you 'take lane' as I described above. See Franklin for details.
So, despite what you say, I would still advocate using the road.

M

Despite what you say, I would advocate using a cycle lane in preference to sitting in the way of a bus, in a bus lane. I think it's a stupid notion to believe cycling in the middle of the lane will protect you.

You might not have noticed this but there's a solid line on the right hand side of a buslane. This, like other solid white lines on carriageways around this country, means vehicular traffic is not permitted to cross from lane to lane - This includes buses 'overtaking' by crossing into the right hand side.

So, you sit in the middle of the lane, irritating someone who'd in command of a vehicle that will crush you in an instant. Don't bother with the argument that he should have patience and respect you as a road user - This is the real world, not the ideal world. If you mess with a bus, you run a risk of being hit, clipped or crushed. Now you might think that risk is acceptable and advocate using the road, I don't. My life has too great a value to risk it for the sake of principle.

So, despite what you say, I would still advocate getting there safely - Not risking it by getting in the way of a heavy vehicle. You don't have to like it but you should respect them - Purely because of the damage they could do to you if the guy behind the wheel turns out to be an ass****. If you don't like the risk, get the bus or drive a car to work instead.

blorg

Gil_Dub wrote:

You might not have noticed this but there's a solid line on the right hand side of a buslane. This, like other solid white lines on carriageways around this country, means vehicular traffic is not permitted to cross from lane to lane - This includes buses 'overtaking' by crossing into the right hand side.

Are you sure this is the case? If so, it would mean that it is illegal for buses to overtake a cyclist in a combined bus/cycle lane (which all bus lanes are unless there is a seperate cycle lane) as there is never enough room to do so safely (often to do so at all) without leaving the lane.

It can't be the case. What about buses that need to leave the lane to make a right turn (bus lanes don't tend to go to a broken line to facilitate this.)

BeardyGit

Yeah, I'm sure.

jman0

Gil_Dub wrote:

I've argued at length with a friend who happens to be a driver for Dublin Bus working out of Donnybrook. He's been on the busses for 25 years now, most of these as a driver and a few now instructing new drivers. He tells me that it's only going to be a matter of time before a cyclist gets run over in a bus lane, in the false belief that the guy at the wheel behind him will show him any respect as a road user. He says it's absolutely stupid for any of us to take for granted that a bus driver is afraid of what might happen - That the complete idiots who are hitting the roads in command of a double decker now are a different breed from 20 years back.

He has a point. While a car will generally prove agile enough to either manouvre around a cyclist quickly when required, or stop when it's not possible to do so, a bus won't do so - You'll end up under it. As he pointed out to me, 20 years as a professional driver with a high vantage point means most bus drivers have witnessed traffic accidents, pedestrians and cyclist crushed by HGV's etc. That's the only thing that stop them getting too close to us. Unfortunately the new breed don't have that experience, that fear of something they older lads have seen, to keep them at a safe distance.

For me, I'll moan about the state of cycle lanes etc, but I won't get in the way of a bus if there's anywhere else I could be cycling.

A cyclist has a the right to cycle in the bus lane.
I woudn't advocate people quitting their rights over such a statistically insignificant occurance [cyclist getting crushed by a bus from the rear].
I would say that if your friend believes that Dublin Bus drivers pose a real threat to the safety of vulnerable road users, he has a Civic Duty to do something about that.
Particularly since he's in a unique postion.

blorg

jman0- a cyclist has _no right_ to cycle in the bus lane if there is an adjoining cycle path, of whatever quality. In that case cycling in the bus lane is illegal. The law was changed in this regard in I think 1998. It is an extremely dangerous change as it gives a small percentage of drivers the idea that they therefore have a licence to intimidate and harrass cyclists who refuse to use sub-par cycle paths (there is no such law in the UK.)

I know the statistics. It ceases to be a matter of "statistics" when you are one on one with a driver who is _deliberately_ using their vehicle to scare you by overtaking and then _turning into you_. I have personal experience of this four times in my life (over tens of thousands of kilometres cycled) and when I have caught the driver they have admitted that they clearly saw me and that their actions were deliberate as "I should have been on the cycle path." I get passed too close every day, this is completely different, they are _deliberately_ turning into you to "teach you a lesson."

If you _insist_ on refering to the statistics then consider this a case of overtaking and immediately turning left as that is what it is closest to. And according to this source, "The motorist was overtaking the bicyclist, cause of the accident unclear" is the third most common cause of cyclist fatality in the US (accidents during overtaking would actually be second if you include number 6, "The motorist was overtaking the bicyclist and failed to see him.")

Statistics are only one tool to understand the risks here; the sample size of cyclist fatalities in Ireland or Dublin is actually relatively small and as such the conclusions that can be drawn are limited. Research on injuries I don't believe exists. Presuming that it is a small minority of cyclists using the bus lane in these circumstances (and it is) and a small minority of bus drivers deliberately trying to scare them (and it is) there simply may not have been enough incidents yet for someone to be seriously injured or killed. All myself and Gil_Dub are saying is that _we don't want to be that first statistic_.

Three years ago I was waiting in the space after an advanced stop line and when the light turned green I was hit from behind by a motorist who just wasn't looking. I broke my arm. Statistically I suppose this is not a common accident, but my arm was still broken. (Although who knows how common it was as I doubt my incident made it into any statistic about the safety of advanced stop lines.)

blorg

Gil_Dub wrote:

Yeah, I'm sure.

I would like to see some reference for this, as I just can't believe it is true. If so it is absolutely ridiculous and every bus driver is breaking the law on a daily basis (leaving the lane to overake other buses at bus stops for example.) You are seriously maintaining that the law requires a bus to wait behind a cyclist for the entire length of a bus lane, even if the lane on the right is completely empty? (As the law also mandates safe overtaking.) What about buses that due to their route are making a right turn? Are those routes inherently "illegal"?

BeardyGit

blorg wrote:

I would like to see some reference for this, as I just can't believe it is true. If so it is absolutely ridiculous and every bus driver is breaking the law on a daily basis (leaving the lane to overake other buses at bus stops for example.) You are seriously maintaining that the law requires a bus to wait behind a cyclist for the entire length of a bus lane, even if the lane on the right is completely empty? (As the law also mandates safe overtaking.) What about buses that due to their route are making a right turn? Are those routes inherently "illegal"?

If you look you will actually see that there is an 'exit point' from a buslane after the last stop preceeding a right hand turn on a bus route.

And yes, every day a bus crosses into a lane of traffic adjoining a bus-lane to overtake another bus he is breaking the law. This is actually something the drivers in Donnybrook are well aware of as some have been 'done' by traffic corps Gardaí.

Anyway - I don't wish to engage in yet another discussion on boards about the legality of using a buslane - Everyone here is far too experienced at that already......

Leaving the statistical probability aside, I just don't think it's worth taking the chance that I'll be in the majority if I chose to annoy a bus driver. Particularly the newer drivers employed by Dublin Bus....

blorg

Gil_Dub wrote:

If you look you will actually see that there is an 'exit point' from a buslane after the last stop preceeding a right hand turn on a bus route.

Ok, I believe you, insane law if that is the case, just gives the bus driver another excuse for running you over even if you are legally there in a combined bus/cycle lane ("but I couldn't leave the bus lane while overtaking, m'lud.") By the way I agree with you 100% on not using the N11 QBC as my other posts attest.