Fiat's Fall from grace

road_high

Hasn't the decline of Fiat in Ireland incredible? Was reading about it on the Times motoring supplement the other day. In year 2000 they sold something 14,000 cars in Ireland- this year (just 5/6 years later!) they are selling just over 3000 cars here!
Similiar decline for Alfa here. Were people really that stung by buying these? A hell of a lot of people must have ditche the marque when it came to trade in time.
I know the Stilo has alot to answer for but I think the 3door version is a very smart car (the 5 door looks frumpy).

prospect

mfitzy wrote:

Hasn't the decline of Fiat in Ireland incredible? Was reading about it on the Times motoring supplement the other day. In year 2000 they sold something 14,000 cars in Ireland- this year (just 5/6 years later!) they are selling just over 3000 cars here!
Similiar decline for Alfa here. Were people really that stung by buying these? A hell of a lot of people must have ditche the marque when it came to trade in time.
I know the Stilo has alot to answer for but I think the 3door version is a very smart car (the 5 door looks frumpy).

Stilo was a poor seller, and the chroma isn't going to do well at all.
The new grande punto, and panda are doing quite well.
The multipla is probably one of the best MPV's available, but historically FIAT have a bad rep, so people are unwilling to buy it. It is their loss i suppose.

The new breed of Alfas have been very slow off the mark. Probably because of the depreciation of the 156's and 166's. I dunno about anyone else, but I am seeing an awful lot of 147's on the roads recently.

The 159 and Brera are between a rock and a hardplace. You have the negative image the olders Alfa carry, and some of the real alfa fans are reluctant about them because their petrols are now based on the GM platform.

BrianD3

IIRC years ago fiat had a slightly better reputation than it has today despite producing some real rustbuckets back then. Nowadays Fiats are probably the cars least likely to rust plus they have the best warranty (4 years) on the Irish market.

Perhaps consumers are more demanding and more influenced by image these days. Maybe years ago they were actually naive but nowadays with the advent of the internet and better communication generally it's gone the other way and any reports of bad reliability spread like wildfire.

MercMad

I'd say the sh1t dealer service doesn't help !

The Alfa's are not too bad IMO, I ran a 155 for a few years with little trouble at all ! A few things went wrong, the dealers were crap but once out of warranty and servicing myself I had no issues.

Great to drive too, really strong grip and the 2.0 TS was a sweet little gem, though very short on torque !

Nearly went for a 166 V6 afterwards, heart over head, but the head took over and won !!

atlantean

Problem is that for some people the name Fix It Again Tomorrow holds true!

dubred

I drove a Punto 16v ELX for 6 years (126K miles) and an SX for 2 years before that, had no great problems with it aside from standard consumables (clutch brake discs etc). I changed cars before the summer and was looking at an 02 stilo, but ended up with an 02 avensis for less (both were with main dealers, similar mileage, better warranty with the avensis). I did really like the stilo but felt the dealer was taking the proverbial.

I have never had any cause to agree with the fix it again tomorrow rubbish, and would buy a FIAT again in the future, if it makes economic sense to do so.

maidhc

They make fantastic construction and agricultural machinery under the CNH brand. Bigger margins in that too. I reckon the motor car side of things will be sold off or closed down, sooner rather than later.

Kashkai

As I've posted before, I bought a brand new "Car of the Year" Bravo in 1996. Only Fiat I've ever owned or ever will own. Back to the garage 12 times in 6 months - compared to the totally trouble free 12 year old Renault 5 that I scrapped to buy the Bravo.

I know I shouldn't slag all Fiats off as I've only ever owned the one but it was such a bad motoring experience that I could never part with my cash for another one.

Oh and the dealer was absolute sh1te. I was so sick of sitting in his garage up in Kilternan waiting for the latest problem to be rectified. Cup of coffee - no, something to read - no, toilets - for the staff only, replacement car when they couldn't fix it - a 1989 Uno with dodgy brakes.

Not surprised their sales have slumped. They were riding high in the 90's on the back of selling cheap little cars like the cinq and then seicento and puntos under the scrappage scheme. And for a country that supposed to be the height of fashion, the Stilo is one godawful looking motor.

prospect

FIAT motor corp is massive, incorporating FIAT, lancia, alfa romeo, maserati & lancia, not to mention their other interests.

Also, do not forget how small the irish market is. The irish population is about half that of the population of London. So the sales figures here only represent an incy wincy percentage of international sales.

joolsveer

I have owned two FIATs in thirty years. One of them had an engine fire and the other the oil pump packed up and the engine wasn't worth rescuing. So since the second car packed up in 1978 I have not and will never buy another from this stable.

I have driven a couple of FIATs on the mainland (both in Spain and France) since then and they seemed OK but I would never be brave enough to buy another.

road_high

I think perhaps the electronics etc are just not up to the harsh roads and climate they face in Ireland? I don't think Fiats decline as been as massive or as steep elsewhere as the one faced here in Ireland. Been to Euope a few times and their cars seem to be still very popular everywhere.
Somebody mentioned the new Croma- what a stupid model addition that was IMO. It costs as much as a Passat or Avensis but offers nothing extra really plus all the minuses of being a Fiat (i.e. give a dog a bad name).
I really think theyve been hit hard in Ireland by the likes of Hyundai/ Kia and also Citroen/Renault/Peugeot with the great deals and new models these marques have been offering in recent years. It reallyu is amazing though how much thye've declined here. Imagine the Punto was Irelands best seller for years! The new one looks like a nice solid piece of kit but looking at the prices I think they should have started a bit lower and take on the (presumably) dynamically inferior Hyundais and Kias.

maidhc

mfitzy wrote:

I think perhaps the electronics etc are just not up to the harsh roads and climate they face in Ireland? I don't think Fiats decline as been as massive or as steep elsewhere as the one faced here in Ireland. Been to Euope a few times and their cars seem to be still very popular everywhere.

The electronics they put in tractors work just fine, and they get a harsher time than any car. The resale value of their agricultural machinery exceeds pretty much everything as well. The company is well capable of making fine equipment.

MercMad

really think theyve been hit hard in Ireland by the likes of Hyundai/ Kia

................I think you've hit the nail on the head there !

Cheap cars that dont give trouble !

maidhc

MercMad wrote:

Cheap cars that dont give trouble !

They are not really that cheap though, and when you factor in depreciation, prohibitively expensive.

tvr

there not cheap now , look at the grande punto well over priced , they put up the grande punto by 800 euro last July and removed the a/c speced one . its a joke the sporting is now at 18600 and if you ask the dealer there only a few quid ofd for cash because there selling well. Thats got to be bollocks.

Why would anyone buy them anyway by a Swift or something

The panda although well price for what you get is horribly ugly. The stilo is a joke .

And if anyone was to buy a big Fiat ie anything over 20000 , i think they should get the head examined.

I dont see why anyone would buy Fiats now there are better cars in each sector.

DublinWriter

Fiat have a really bad image problem in this country when it comes to reliability, as do the French brands.

Personally, I'd never touch anything non-Japanese or non-German (sorry for the double negative!). I owned a Primera for 10 years and it only crapped out once in its entire life.

Anan1

DublinWriter wrote:

Personally, I'd never touch anything non-Japanese or non-German (sorry for the double negative!). I owned a Primera for 10 years and it only crapped out once in its entire life.

German cars aren't particularly reliable any more.

Max_Damage

Anan1 wrote:

German cars aren't particularly reliable any more.

Opel's are more reliable than Mercedes' now FFS!

ninty9er

You can get a good or bad one like any other car, but just a higher mathematical probability of getting a bad French or Italian car (much like their unreliable labour force - also very prone to strike and a short working week)

I think why they're now selling less is that Ireland was a very different place 12 years ago where price won over quality and Fiat could beat anyone on price!!!

peasant

ninty9er wrote:

I think why they're now selling less is that Ireland was a very different place 12 years ago where price won over quality and Fiat could beat anyone on price!!!

Replace "quality" with "image" and/or "perception of quality" and you've got it nailed, I'd say.

colm_mcm

THe thing to remember was that at the time (1999), the Punto and 156 were the most stylish cars in their class. that's why they sold. Fiat need to get back to what they do best, clever small cars, and more daring looking Alfas.

G Luxel

well if you compare those sales to the surviving 500s, of which there are 500,000 left in Italy, and the last one rolled off the production line in I977, then its obvious that the company has gone downhill when it comes to designing motor cars. There hasn't been anything to set the world alight since the Uno. It may own all the other Italian marques but they are all just luxury or badge engineered fiats (this is something diehard enthusaists refuse to admit). While the other marques (Lancia, Alfa Romeo) may have different models, they are using up parts created from the fiat parts bin. The company could sell the seicento again as its still available in mainland europe and i have seen some other fiats not sold here such as the Albea, the palio and the siena. Looking at some old pictures of rome, every car appeared to be white and a fiat. Looking at rome now, everything is not white and not a fiat..........

Trotter

What is it about the 16v ELX Puntos that made them more reliable than the others? I have one and its had no problems at all. The mechanic who services it said something about them being made in a different factory altogether.

Is this true or are there other reasons that set it apart from the ordinary punto??

clio_16v

Trotter wrote:

What is it about the 16v ELX Puntos that made them more reliable than the others? I have one and its had no problems at all. The mechanic who services it said something about them being made in a different factory altogether.

Is this true or are there other reasons that set it apart from the ordinary punto??

Not sure, think thats true tho. The 8v Puntos were very prone to head gasket going in them but 16v had no head problems. Well, less problems. My father had 2 of them, shocks, head gasket and some electrics all had to be replaced in first 6 months. Cheap and cheerful in the late nineties but gave loads of trouble

colm_mcm

the Bravo/Brava used the 16 valve engine too, and they can give head trouble..... maybe you don't hear of as many 16v punto head haskets going because there are so few around? (only Sporting or HLX 5dr in Ireland)

alias no.9

G Luxel wrote:

There hasn't been anything to set the world alight since the Uno. It may own all the other Italian marques but they are all just luxury or badge engineered fiats (this is something diehard enthusaists refuse to admit). While the other marques (Lancia, Alfa Romeo) may have different models, they are using up parts created from the fiat parts bin.

Badge engineering is a term that goes back to British Leyland where they literally switched the badges on a car. Anybody remember the MG Metro? Platform sharing isn't quite the same but most companies do it. Fiat certainly pioneered it with the TIPO platform which has spawned the Fiat Tipo, Tempra, Bravo, Brava, Marea, and coupe, the Lancia Dedra, Delta and Lybra, the Alfa 145, 146, 147, 155, 156, GT, GTV and Spider.

Take the MKIV golf platform, it spawned the VW Golf, Bora and Beetle, the Seat Leon and Toledo, the Skoda Octavia, and the Audi A3 and TT.

The Ford Focus platform has spawned the first and second generation Focus, the Mazda 3, and the Volvo S40. The Mondeo spawned the Jaguar X-type, while the Jaguar S type is based on the Lincoln LS.

Add that to the fact that fiat pioneered common rail diesel technology that virtually every other company has adopted except vw (though I think it does feature in one of their high end engines), and it's clear that they're setting the pace for technology development, even if they're not setting the world alight with products. It's interesting to note that the new bravo has been brought through to design freeze, completely based on computer modelling, slashing the development costs. Anybody reckon other manufacturers will be following suit within the next 10 years? You might not be rushing out to buy one, but their continiuing innovation means they will survive.

Trotter

colm_mcm wrote:

maybe you don't hear of as many 16v punto head haskets going because there are so few around? (only Sporting or HLX 5dr in Ireland)

I've an ELX 16v 5 door! Thats different from the HLX yeah? It was born and bred in Ireland.

I'd love to upgrade to an 03 or 04 ELX 16v but only if it was as reliable. Also I have the radio controls on the steering wheel.. I just couldnt do without them now!!

colm_mcm

What year is yours? Irish ELXs didn't generally have steering wheel controls (Blaupunkt Grenoble universal stereo), just colour coded bumpers, front fogs, electric windows, central locking and rear headrests.

HLX models had heated mirrors, ABS (I think) Alloys, different seats.

There was an ELX 16v model in the UK alright, but I don't think it was offered in Eire

Trotter

colm_mcm wrote:

What year is yours? Irish ELXs didn't generally have steering wheel controls (Blaupunkt Grenoble universal stereo), just colour coded bumpers, front fogs, electric windows, central locking and rear headrests.

HLX models had heated mirrors, ABS (I think) Alloys, different seats.

Mine's a 98. It has the steering controls made into the wheel (at manufacture) and colour coded bumpers, front fogs, electric windows, central locking and rear headrests.

Its the 85bhp version.

colm_mcm

Sorry, thought you had the newer model. Old one did have the 1.2 16v,

8 valve more common in new model therefore more reports of head gasket failure.

Trotter

colm_mcm wrote:

Sorry, thought you had the newer model. Old one did have the 1.2 16v,

8 valve more common in new model therefore more reports of head gasket failure.

I may as well mind this one so.. by all accounts I could get 100k out of it if I keep it serviced. Why not.. its a comfortable little nipper!