Utd vs Pool (Hopefully scores inc)

SteM

Well, before the game people were posting that United hadn't been tested this season apart from Arsenal which they lost and it looks like they still haven't. Liverpool were poor today and Rafa looked flumoxed in his after match interview. As a United fan I was happy to see Gerrard start on the right, he just doesn't seem happy there.

The Gerrard chant was posted on redcafe during the week but I won't repeat it here.

A Dub in Glasgo

Good win from Man Utd, Liverpool had no hope.

ronbyrne2005

Raffa should build his team around gerrard in attacking centre midfield role with alonso and sosoko in middle and either crouch or Kuyt up front alone.

Guy:Incognito

p_larkin99 wrote:

Yeah lets focus on a crowd chant rather than how crap your team looked today!

How is 2 posts out of about 20 on this thread "focusing" I brought it up tacked onto a post about something completely different.

Anyway, about the football. This zoneal marking rubbish is leaking all to many goals. Look at ferdinands goal, when the first ball comes in, Utd are 5 on 3 at the back post, after a bloody corner when all 11 liverpool players were in the box, the mind boggles. Carra ran around players to try get near Ferdinand. Bloody ridiculous that 1 player is chasing te ball around the box, while the rest stand around having a chat.

ButcherOfNog

Gerrard and Alonso are not playing this season to the level they are capable of, Liverpool ain't going to do anything until those 2 start to play as well as they can. UTD deserved to win.

RasTa

You still playing Q2?

Daemonic

Thats the league gone for another year. Rafa may have improved the squad but he isn't even close to getting the best out of them. In Rafa we trust ??

smemon

easy win for Utd.

Liverpool came for a draw and tried to pretend they came for a win by att acking early on and closing down every ball.

Utd basically rolled their eyes at that just kept spraying the ball around. Once they got going liverpool looked a mess and their midfield was overpowered by - wait for it - darren fletcher. Carrick was average and still managed to dominate midfield also.

Liverpool had nothing on the flanks and simply hoofed balls into their lone striker who wasn't crouch so why the long ball policy? Any time they did play on the ground, resulted in wild hacks at goal or intercepted passes in the last 3rd.

Not a great display by Utd, but their hunger won it. Fair but competitive game by both sides which is good to see. No handbags for a change.

sofireland

Good result for united, never really that troubled.

Great finish from Rio, come on United!

cournioni

Only caught the second half as I had a game on. From what I saw, United totally dominated and never looked troubled by Liverpool.

I couldn't believe my eyes when Benitez took off Alonso as opposed to Gerrard. Gerrard had an absolute stinker and is in my eyes inferior to Alonso. He always tries impossible passes which always seem to end up going for a throw, going out over the byline or into the keepers hands. I was of the same opinion in the same fixture last season, I was right then too. Alonso is more conservative with his passes, he keeps it nice and simple most of the time and when the time is right hits the killer ball. I think the only thing that keeps Gerrard is his nack of getting a goal, something which Alonso doesn't really have in his locker alot of the time.

From a United perspective I am very pleased with todays win. United played well and kept the ball very well at times, Rooney, Scholes, and Giggs playing very well. My only worry is that they will get carried away with this victory against a very poor Liverpool today. They will need to raise it a little in the next game I feel.

SteM

PORNAPSTER wrote:

My only worry is that they will get carried away with this victory against a very poor Liverpool today. They will need to raise it a little in the next game I feel.

I'd agree. They've got Bolton away next Saturday (not counting Crewe in the Carling Cup on Wednesday) and will probably get a tougher game than today. The game is live on Setanta Sports by the way.

Guy:Incognito

PORNAPSTER wrote:

Only caught the second half as I had a game on. From what I saw, United totally dominated and never looked troubled by Liverpool.

I couldn't believe my eyes when Benitez took off Alonso as opposed to Gerrard. Gerrard had an absolute stinker and is in my eyes inferior to Alonso. He always tries impossible passes which always seem to end up going for a throw, going out over the byline or into the keepers hands. I was of the same opinion in the same fixture last season, I was right then too. Alonso is more conservative with his passes, he keeps it nice and simple most of the time and when the time is right hits the killer ball. I think the only thing that keeps Gerrard is his nack of getting a goal, something which Alonso doesn't really have in his locker alot of the time.
.

The problem with Gerrard is where he is being made play. Like Giles said about Rooney not being up to scratch, theres something wrong in his head, either something at the club or in his home life. With Gerrard, the something is being played as a winger when he isnt one. He should be in the centre of the pitch, he shouldnt be far enough away from any of the other attackers to be trying 50 yard balls. He needs to be in that marauding middle posiiton where he can drift accross the back of the front and pressing into the box. Lampard is half the player Gerrard is yet looks great at Chelsea partly because of being played in his proper position. He does have a tendancy to go over the top with some passes, but he was maturing and picking his passes better in the last year or so. Last season was suppose dto be temporary, while rafa bought wingers in the summer, yet he' s still out thers.

mada999

very bad performance from Liverpool today....There's just too many players off form at the moment....Reina, Gerrard, Alonso, Finnan, Carra...

Liverpool's passing in Midfield was awful. Alonso, Sissoko, Garcia and Gerrard gave the ball away too easily.. Garcia is just useless... Would have liked to see warnock on with Riise on the wing.

Liverpool, like in the last few games, have not closed down enough. Infact it was only Kuyt and Sissoko closing down players (and Crouch when he came on). Gerrard is wasted on the right...but who are you going to drop? Sissoko or Alonso.

To win today we needed to field a team willing to fight and hassle utd, Gonzalez and Garcia don't fight. I was very dissapointed to see that we were playing 5-4-1..Crouch and Kuyt should have started up front with Bellamy on the bench....Bad tactics by Rafa.

I thought UTD looked ordinary (and they dont have the squad depth to win the league) but still made Liverpool look like a mid table team. Rooney was crap as usual and I thought that the 2 hairdressers (Carrick and Fletcher) were no where to be seen and the only threat from Midfield was Scholes (who wasnt even being closed down by the pool).

It's not a good feeling to be a Liverpool supporter at the moment, lack of confidence at the club...hope we can turn it around soon..Things can only get better!

Tusky

Stekelly wrote:

The problem with Gerrard is where he is being made play. Like Giles said about Rooney not being up to scratch, theres something wrong in his head, either something at the club or in his home life. With Gerrard, the something is being played as a winger when he isnt one. He should be in the centre of the pitch, he shouldnt be far enough away from any of the other attackers to be trying 50 yard balls. He needs to be in that marauding middle posiiton where he can drift accross the back of the front and pressing into the box. Lampard is half the player Gerrard is yet looks great at Chelsea partly because of being played in his proper position. He does have a tendancy to go over the top with some passes, but he was maturing and picking his passes better in the last year or so. Last season was suppose dto be temporary, while rafa bought wingers in the summer, yet he' s still out thers.

For the second time in this thread...!

Gerrard scored more goals last season than any other playing on the right. Any time he has played in the centre this season, he has been muck. If Gerrard is moved into the centre it means either dropping Alonso or Sissoko OR dropping a striker. In my opinion (and Rafas) he should be played on the right. When he plays on the right hes not used as a winger... he has a free roll in which he is allowed to drift.

Look at the game today, how often did you see him out on the wing ? He played in the centre of the park for most of the game!

Paul Tergat

mada999 wrote:

very bad performance from Liverpool today....There's just too many players off form at the moment....Reina, Gerrard, Alonso, Finnan, Carra...

Liverpool's passing in Midfield was awful. Alonso, Sissoko, Garcia and Gerrard gave the ball away too easily.. Garcia is just useless... Would have liked to see warnock on with Riise on the wing.

Liverpool, like in the last few games, have not closed down enough. Infact it was only Kuyt and Sissoko closing down players (and Crouch when he came on). Gerrard is wasted on the right...but who are you going to drop? Sissoko or Alonso.

To win today we needed to field a team willing to fight and hassle utd, Gonzalez and Garcia don't fight. I was very dissapointed to see that we were playing 5-4-1..Crouch and Kuyt should have started up front with Bellamy on the bench....Bad tactics by Rafa.

I thought UTD looked ordinary (and they dont have the squad depth to win the league) but still made Liverpool look like a mid table team. Rooney was crap as usual and I thought that the 2 hairdressers (Carrick and Fletcher) were no where to be seen and the only threat from Midfield was Scholes (who wasnt even being closed down by the pool).

It's not a good feeling to be a Liverpool supporter at the moment, lack of confidence at the club...hope we can turn it around soon..Things can only get better!

Well Fletcher caused your midfield all sorts of problems today, constant pressing and giving no time to the players down the elft side....to say he was no where to be seen is rubbish! (and i don't rate Fletcher at all)

Paul Tergat

Tusky wrote:

For the second time in this thread...!

Gerrard scored more goals last season than any other playing on the right. Any time he has played in the centre this season, he has been muck. If Gerrard is moved into the centre it means either dropping Alonso or Sissoko OR dropping a striker. In my opinion (and Rafas) he should be played on the right. When he plays on the right hes not used as a winger... he has a free roll in which he is allowed to drift.

Look at the game today, how often did you see him out on the wing ? He played in the centre of the park for most of the game!

This is a problem in itself, Utd often got overlaps down the wings (as Gerrard was in the centre "roaming") with Evra constantly doubling up with Giggs on Finnan...this then left space in the centre as Sissoko or Alonso then have to come over and help the full back.

IMO gerrard tis the best there is (all round player in the centre of midfield and that ought to be his position, whoever has to be sacrificed. Liverpool play very negative with no real attacking midfielder, playing Gerrard in the centre with either of Alonso/Sissoko would allow for another winger to play and to attack more!

kinaldo

Unbelievable, Newstalk are asking Liverpool fans if it's time for Benitez to go. They should be asking if it's time for the entire board and management of Newcastle to resign.

homerjay2005

brilliant win for untied, liverpool were hopeless but united didnt allow them to play, fletcher was immense in the first half, vidic is getting better and better, scholes was excellent, so was saha, rooney started well, disappeared for a while and finished excellently, but my man of the match was evra, he was brilliant from start to finish. the united back 4, for the first time in about 5 years has a solid look about it that inspires confidence. as regards a couple of questions that were asked -

the united chant to "we on it 5 times" - well, there are 2 chants

1- first time, we won it the first time (kinda boring),
2- 2 times, we won it 2 times, we ***** **** *******,we won it 2 times, i left out a line cause to be honest, its not good taste and i dont agree with it and its only sung by a small minority.

the tame version of the gerrard song is -

steve gerrard, gerrard,
he kisses the badge on his chest,
he gives in a transfer request,
steve gerrard, gerrard

RasTa

mada999 wrote:

I thought UTD looked ordinary (and they dont have the squad depth to win the league) but still made Liverpool look like a mid table team. Rooney was crap as usual and I thought that the 2 hairdressers (Carrick and Fletcher) were no where to be seen and the only threat from Midfield was Scholes (who wasnt even being closed down by the pool).

We looked ordinary because we didnt have to do much. It was a stroll for us to be honest. Fletcher dominated that midfield today until it was 2-0. Allways putting constant pressure on any pool player, forcing them to give the ball away. You know its bad when our little Evra was pushing your players off the ball. Not tested at all today, I look forward to the Bolton game where it will be 1-0 for either team.

Attractive Nun

I thought United looked quite good today. Rooney wasn't great, but Saha was fantastic. Giggs and Scholes are playing as you would expect such quality players to - well, but showing their age to an extent. With Ronaldo to come in, Fletcher actually playing fairly well (:eek:), and Carrick settling in, I think things are looking well for United this season.

I do think the point being made about our strength in depth is a good one. We definitely need to get Smith back playing as a striker and hopefully Solskjaer will continue in the vein he's been in. Other than that, I reckon we can survive until Christmas in the midfield as long as there are no major injuries, and with Park and someone else to come in at Christmas (Hargreaves?), we could be up there with Chelsea come next summer.

It would be Ferguson's greatest achievement IMO to turn over Chelsea so I won't get ahead of myself here, there is a long way to go and I still expect Mourinho to win his third in a row.

cournioni

Stekelly wrote:

The problem with Gerrard is where he is being made play. Like Giles said about Rooney not being up to scratch, theres something wrong in his head, either something at the club or in his home life. With Gerrard, the something is being played as a winger when he isnt one. He should be in the centre of the pitch, he shouldnt be far enough away from any of the other attackers to be trying 50 yard balls. He needs to be in that marauding middle posiiton where he can drift accross the back of the front and pressing into the box. Lampard is half the player Gerrard is yet looks great at Chelsea partly because of being played in his proper position. He does have a tendancy to go over the top with some passes, but he was maturing and picking his passes better in the last year or so. Last season was suppose dto be temporary, while rafa bought wingers in the summer, yet he' s still out thers.

While I agree that playing Gerrard out of position, I still stand by my point. He has always played like this no matter what position he is playing in. Trying unrealistic balls which 90% of the time don't come off. To me, it is just as frustrating as watching Ronaldo do ten stepovers, fall over and stroll back without a care in the world.

As I've said, Alonso is a similar type of player who can really spread the play but he keeps it simple until there is a long ball on. Gerrard just trys these balls non stop, when the simple ball is all that is needed. Sure, when they come off they're wonderful to see, but they hit the advertising hoardings or drop into the keepers hands it looks awful.

Having said that, I totally agree with you. Gerrard should be playing in a Scholes/Lampard role behind the front one/two with Alonso or Sissoko behind him.

p.pete

While watching the match earlier a friend said liverpool have too many ordinary players that could be sold for some excellent players. Players like Pennant and Bellamy aren't good enough and we'll get nowhere with what we currently have. I couldn't disagree more.

To a man, Liverpool are playing poor at the moment. Player for player I don't think Liverpool have too much to be worried by United. We lost today and with good reason, at the moment we're crap. Picking out players like Pennant or Bellamy is pointless - I've seen Bellamy play good before arriving at Liverpool and I've even seen Pennant play well since joining Liverpool. More to my point, I've seen Gerrard play well before too - I just can't remember when, Alonso too and others.

What's the point in highlighting one or two new players who may or may not make it when the players who should be controlling things aren't doing so - and in general the whole team is playing bad. Anyway - that's just me disagreeing with what was said earlier.

Why does Garcia always make the starting line-up for our biggest matches?
Why was Crouch on the bench when he's scored the last 8 times he's played at OT (before today anyway)?

United deserved the win - towards the end I was half wishing it was a larger margin. We need a kick up the ass.

mike65

Indeed, but then Liverpool shipped 3 against Everton, two against Bolton and nothings changed.

Mike.

Guy:Incognito

Tusky wrote:

For the second time in this thread...!

Gerrard scored more goals last season than any other playing on the right. ny time he has played in the centre this season, he has been muck. If Gerrard is moved into the centre it means either dropping Alonso or Sissoko OR dropping a striker. In my opinion (and Rafas) he should be played on the right.!

What the hell difference does last season make. He wants to play in the middle, and isnt being played there. It's affecting his game and he isnt happy. If he spends his time coming inside , he is leaving a gaping hole on the right.

Whats so awful about dropping alonso or sissoko? Alonso isnt playing well and playing with 2 defensive midfielders is overkill, theres a distinct lack of goals this season.

He was playing with one striker anyway.

The Muppet

On todays performance Liverpool are too lightweight. They simply were not physical enough and were muscled off the ball way too easily (and by players that are not the most physical themselves, Fletcher Evra Carrick ).


United played well within themsleves and won easily, Evra Carrick and fletcher impressed me. I was delighted to see Scholes score given the occasion.

It looks like Liverpools only chance of silverware will be in cup competition this year as they produce yet another dissappointing premiership campaign but never mind lads, There's always next year.:D

Chucky the tree

Hopefully we will reach the dizzying heights of the Carling cup this season.

Garcia is a joker. A strong gust of wind would blow him over. He far to leightweight for premiership matches. Time he was shipped off.

Villain

Pretty poor game tbh, Rafa set out his stall looking for a draw imo and that type of negative approach is never going to work at Old Trafford with the current pool side. Hypia is past it imo, Liverpool's defence is very badly organised the worst I have seen in years.

As for the Gerrard debate about his position? well I just wish Liverpool would buy a world class right winger then we could see one of the best center Midfielders in the World playing where he should be. I think Andy Gray was spot on when he said that if Jose or Sir Alex had Gerrard he would be playing in the center every week. Garcia just can't cut it in the PL he's too light weight imo.

As for United they are playing above their ability imo, their midfield is still nothing special but their playing well as a unit and are hard to break down, however I would be surprised if they are top come the end of the season, although Hargreaves coming in January could be the missing piece of the jigsaw they need to challenge Arsenal and Chelsea.

Liverpool simply have to beat the only unbeaten side left in the country next week and tbh as a Villa fan I would take a point and run right now, Liverpool are going to want to bounch back and I don't think Villa have the quality to contain them if I'm honest.

fade2black

OTliddy

tdv wrote:

Rio is to **** for my liking.

RIO, RIO!!!

TheMonster

Comfortable victory for United - Scholes game up trumps again. Hilarious report of the match on Liverpools officicial website.

Goals from Paul Scholes and Rio Ferdinand have condemned Liverpool to a 2-0 defeat to Manchester United in Sunday's Premiership clash at Old Trafford.

There was little to separate these sides for large parts of this game, but United took the points with a goal in each half. And the Reds were left to reflect on another defeat when fine details were the difference after seeing their best chances saved by van der Sar.

Liverpool had started the game on top and they might have had an early lead if Gonzalez's cross had been closer to Gerrard, who was free in the middle. But the home side came into the game as the first half wore on and Pepe Reina had to be at his best to twice save from Saha.

The Reds were once again giving a good account of themselves at the home of a much vaunted rival and they created a great chance to score when Kuyt's 30th minute header was well saved by Edwin van der Sar.

But just as thoughts were turning to a deadlocked first half, United took the lead through Paul Scholes. It came when Rooney found space and released Giggs; and his cross was met by Scholes in the six yard box, who scored at the second attempt after Reina had brilliantly stopped his first effort.

Rafa Benitez replaced Gonzalez with Pennant at the start of the second half as his side looked for an equalizer, but despite restricting United to counter attacks, they found it difficult to get a clear sight of goal themselves.

And they paid the price for having to push forward when the home side raced forward and made it 2-0 through Rio Ferdinand in the 65th minute. With Reina this time powerless to stop the England man's left footed strike, the Reds now had a mountain to climb.

Liverpool Captain Steven Gerrard was in no mood to let his 350th club appearance be spoilt, but not even his energetic efforts could save the Reds from defeat. And they must now look to Wednesday's Carling Cup match with Reading to return to winning ways.

Liverpoolfc.tv Man-of-the-Match: Steven Gerrard

Nalz

Poor performance by Liverpool and a strong team effort by United. I think Ronaldo would have made a difference, even though Fletcher played out of his jocks, skin and skeleton! Evra looked good. Finnan and Reina were very poor. I felt really sorry for Kuyt. I think he'll be a great player. Pool could have done with Bellamy. United were good but they caught Liverpool on a bad and somewhat depressing day. little to seperate teams my ass!

Trilla wrote:

2-1 United - Ferdinand,Giggs, Kuyt.

I wasnt a million miles away, Giggs assist for first goal and Kuyt should have scored. Guess who had a tenner on Rio to score. Ha Ha!

OTliddy wrote:

RIO, RIO!!!

yes - oh yes.....RIO RIO!!

Thanx 4 The Fish

Better team on the day won, liverpool looked out of sorts again, the sooner Agger is back the better. Still, some of the harder games out of the way now and a good winning run will put the pool back in the mix. I do not see United or Chelsea going unbeaten for the rest of the season, the pool will just have to try and take advantage of any slip ups that occur.

sofireland

I think its safe to say liverpool are playing for 4th

The main contenders this year will be Man U, Chelsea and Arsenal (if they win their game in hand are only 2 points behind man u and chelsea)

Liverpool as usual preseason hyped up, all huff and no puff.

Gerard played well from the right last season, whats stopping him now (bet he regrets not going to chelsea now)

Fletcher had one of his best games in a united shirt in recent times, we coped well in midfield even though we were out numbered.

Good to see the goals coming from other areas apart from strikers, great finish from Rio, and what was hyppia at for the scholes goal, you don't give the Ginger prince that much space.

Tusky

Stekelly wrote:

What the hell difference does last season make. He wants to play in the middle, and isnt being played there. It's affecting his game and he isnt happy. If he spends his time coming inside , he is leaving a gaping hole on the right.

Whats so awful about dropping alonso or sissoko? Alonso isnt playing well and playing with 2 defensive midfielders is overkill, theres a distinct lack of goals this season.

He was playing with one striker anyway.

Who cares what he wants ? Rafa is the boss and Gerrard should be played where he is needed most. Not where he enjoys playing most. He is not bigger than the team.

And again, anytime he has played in the centre this season or late last season, he didnt play all that well. He scored a record number of goals from the right last season, Liverpool won the FA cup & finished on a record number of points for the club... so maybe it is his best position after all.

There is also a common mis-conception that Gerrard is terribly unhappy paying on the right. Its not true. He came out only a couple of weeks ago saying he was more than happy to play on the right for the good of the team even though he prefers playing in the middle. If he was played in the middle and we dropped Alonso, people would complain about him not being in the team & lets not forget he completed more successful tackles than any else in the permiership last season & supplied us with an amazing amount of assists. If you keep him in the team you have to drop one of Kuyt, Bellamy or Crouch and again, people would complain.

Whenever the team is losing, people will complain.

Drop Reina, move Gerrard to the middle, Hypia is passed it, Garcia is no good, Pennant is ****, Bellamy is useless etc etc etc blah blah blah.

Ardent

I blame Garcia. Why does Benitez keep playing the pixie - he's not cut out for the Premiership and has a phobia when it comes to maintaining possession.

A little more seriously though, too many important 'Pool players are underperforming this season - i.e., Carragher & Gerrard -- and the rotation policy is not helping. To paraphrase what Alan Hanson wrote very recently; it's fine to rotate as long as you're winning.

PHB

Liverpool are just still too weak in certain areas. While they have some amazing talent, players like Carragher, Finnan, Alonso, Sissisko (for the future), Gerrard, but the rest of their players are good-average.

They are not player-for-player as good as United, Chelsea, or Arsenal.

Ultimately, Gerrard is the key for the team, and Benetiz is trying to make them into a league challenging team, which really can't have Gerrard in midfield. He doesn't have the ability to spread the play like Alonso/Lampard/Scholes, which is what required to play in that AMC role. For the good of the team, there are only two positions Gerrard should play in, right wing or right back. Gerrard isn't incredible because of his technical ability (which is obviously very impressive), he is incredible because of what he can do in the big moments, his driving runs, and of course his incredible shots. His passing and moving of the play isn't good enough to be a MC in a side challenging for the title, or purporting to.

As for the match, great result, still on top of the league, so wah hey

iregk

Oh PHB I can see a hammering coming you way after those words regarding King Stevie.

Personally while Gerrard is getting better and curbing his madness at times he still has one major flaw for playing in the center. He leaves too many gaps. Yes its great to the average fan seeing him run all over the pitch but when he does this he comes out of position and leaves gaping holes behind him that good teams can exploit.

Yesterdays match was dire and certainly didn't live up to the sky hyperbole. Biggest club match in the world my arse. The match later on Barca and Madrid put it to shame. That said I'm not here to have a go at either team. For me united were nothing special nor were Liverpool. The big difference was fight. Liverpool didn't have any. They looked like they weren't interested and had no intention of getting a kicking. United on the other hand drove into tackles and fought for every ball. That and Hyppia's complete lack of anything were the main influences.

Again as is commonplace these days we are seeing the usual pre season "I believe we are the best team to challenge for the title" hype from the Liverpool camp be found out for what is it. Nothing but Hype. When I said to a mate preseason Liverpool will be 4th he took the head of me. On the radio yesterday for about the 6th season running I heard the words "but were almost there!" from one pool fan. Now I'm just waiting for the next phase: "we have turned the corner!"

Nalz

iregk wrote:

Oh PHB I can see a hammering coming you way after those words regarding King Stevie.

well im behind him here, I think Gerrard is slightly overratted, as is Lampard and especially Carrick. What Phb said here about Gerrard seems spot on to me

Tusky

PHB wrote:

They are not player-for-player as good as United, Chelsea, or Arsenal.

I would have to disagree there. I think UTD is littered with average players, more so than Liverpool. Ferguson has them playing as a team more than than Liverpool though. I rate Rooney, Saha, Giggs, Scholes, VDS & Ronaldo highly but the rest are fairly average.

In regards to Liverpool I rate, Finnan, Hyypia, Carragher, Agger, Risse, Gerrard, Alonso, Sissoko & Kuyt highly. Honorable mentions to the injured Kewell, Bellamy & Crouch.

In regards to your comments on Gerrard, I would agree with you. He doesnt dominate the midfield enough to play CM.

Fair play to UTD at the weekend though, deserved the win.

TheMonster

Trilla wrote:

well im behind him here, I think Gerrard is slightly overratted, as is Lampard and especially Carrick. What Phb said here about Gerrard seems spot on to me

how dare you criticise Stevie G - he got man of the match on the official Liverpool web site?

Jivin Turkey

Well don't worry I will oblige lads, because quite frankly PHB that is absolute nonsense.

PHB wrote:

Ultimately, Gerrard is the key for the team, and Benetiz is trying to make them into a league challenging team, which really can't have Gerrard in midfield.

What are you saying here? Gerrard isn't good enough to play in a "league challenging team"? Then why have Chelsea (i.e. the best team in the league by some distance over the last two years) bend over backwards to sign him for the last two years?

Would you not also think that if he were available and affordable that United or Arsenal wouldn't do the same?

PHB wrote:

He doesn't have the ability to spread the play like Alonso/Lampard/Scholes, which is what required to play in that AMC role.

But surely, if this were true, if he plays alongside Alonso the team as a whole still has this ability to spread the play.

Secondly Gerrards ability to spread the play is as good as all of the aboves. If you don't think so I would think either (a) you have never seen him play or (b) do not know what "spreading the play" is. He does this job as much for Liverpool as Alonso.

PHB wrote:

For the good of the team, there are only two positions Gerrard should play in, right wing or right back.

Are you now saying he is not good enough to play in central midfield for Liverpool?

Good God.

PHB wrote:

His passing and moving of the play isn't good enough to be a MC in a side challenging for the title, or purporting to.

Yet John O'Shea can get a game in central midfield for United? So please enlighten me, are United not challenging for the title, or is John O'Shea's passing incisive enough for title challenging side?

And let me just add, I don't think Gerrard is God or anything like it. He is a fantastic player, who has won many matches singlehandedly for Liverpool. He can be though careless in his distribution of the football and rash with some of his shooting. He can also be very inconsistent at times and has not at all got going this season for Liverpool.

Despite all of this he would still probably walk into all teams in the English league, and most definitely that of Manchester United.

On the match itself I didn't see it but I'm not surprised by the result. United for all their apparent shortcomings are getting results despite not playing well. I still think though that they will fall short come the end of the season unless the midfield is strengthened in January.

Liverpool continue to puzzle me but I think its only a matter of time before they start getting things right. It was around the same time last year that people were questioning RB and then he went and put a string of wins together. They will come good but I can't see them finishing above the teams they are challenging with unless they are able to beat them.

redspider

Man Utd 2-0 Liverpool

Well, not a surprising result nor a surprising game. The target for Liverpool in this match was a draw, and whilst they came close a couple of times, they rarely had Man Utd under the cosh. Man Utd shaded it in play, not dominating by any sape of the imagination, and the goals came. The first, Liverpool's defence was absent in the centre. They got out of shape before that, Carragher out too far and then Hyypia unable to pick up in the centre, giving Scholes two strikes at the cherry.

Before the goal the match was pretty even. Even over the whole 90-odd mins, Liverpool had as many attempts on goal as Man Utd. The 2nd goal sealed it and it was an unlikely left foot strike from Ferdinand. Riise the culprit for not getting close to it, and for once Reina was not too blame.

But this result is not Liverpool's problem per se, indeed most teams will lose to Man U at Old Trafford this season, although the other big two have a chance. No, Liverpool's problems are as I pointed out previously when conceding the title race, and that is against the likes of Bolton (1 pt dropped) and Blackburn (2 pts dropped). Tha Man U game is a good one, an important one for both clubs psychologically, and Liverpool failed to acquit themselves well. But it was not a complete failure. In a way, Benitez's somewhat critical comments after the game are crying foul after the horse has bolted. Liverpool's problems are not from this game alone.

I agree that now the target is 4th, what with Arsenal now going along nicely, and Chelsea churning out results and able to beat most teams. Liverpool need to concentrate on the cups, ensure they get 4th place by winning matches at home in a gung-ho fashion, ie: all out attack, and get into the last-16 in the CL.

Looks like another long season for Liverpool and for the fans ....

Redspider

Nunu

Tusky wrote:

I would have to disagree there. I think UTD is littered with average players, more so than Liverpool. Ferguson has them playing as a team more than than Liverpool though. I rate Rooney, Saha, Giggs, Scholes, VDS & Ronaldo highly but the rest are fairly average.

In regards to Liverpool I rate, Finnan, Hyypia, Carragher, Agger, Risse, Gerrard, Alonso, Sissoko & Kuyt highly. Honorable mentions to the injured Kewell, Bellamy & Crouch.

In regards to your comments on Gerrard, I would agree with you. He doesnt dominate the midfield enough to play CM.

Fair play to UTD at the weekend though, deserved the win.

You rate Hyypia highly yet call Neville(best right back in England) Vidic, Heinze, Evra and Ferdinand fairly average.

I also rate Finnan like yourself, but he has been awful for club and country this season.

Regarding the game. Paul Scholes was outstanding. Someone mentioned earlier in the thread that Utd fans were naive if they thought he would play in the big games come January and the possible arrival of Hargreaves.
Well, he gave the ball away once yesterday, and that was after a loose pass to him, while every other midfielder wasted possession throughout. Even his headed passes were pinpoint perfection.
Scholes is still Englands best midfielder and if Utd are to win anything this season he will be the one that will have made the difference.

redspider

impr0v wrote:

for those who watched it, was rooney influential? i'm desperately seeking ff bonus points for him.

In my opinion he wasnt. He came short for the ball but didnt do much with it, giving it away a lot. In the final 3rd, any half chance he got he couldnt get it away. One example was in a one-on-one with Finnan who nicked it away whilst Rooney just took that extra half instant to think about what to do with it. A sharper Rooney would have controlled better and got a good shot off.

He is not as his best, for whatever reason. Things are not coming off for him and perhaps he is trying too hard, or thinking about it too much maybe. He does a lot of work in tackling back, etc, and that lets him run-off his frustration, but he at times comes back to the left back position which is just far too deep when the ball does break. I think Van Nistelrooy suited him more as striking partner than Saha does. I'm sure Roomey will get back his form again, but at the moment he is going through a lean spell and his mind is affected by it or indeed it may be the reason for it as some have said.

I thought that Man Utd's best player was Giggs. He did some great work in midfield and made some telling crosses/passes as well, he was very energetic and his pace is still electrifying. Scholes was good too.

Redspider

ps: Rooney didnt have one attempt on goal in the whol match. Saha had 6, out of Utd's 10. Liverpool had 13 by the way, 4 from Gerrard.

Nalz

Tusky wrote:

. I rate Rooney, Saha, Giggs, Scholes, VDS & Ronaldo highly but the rest are fairly average.

like who? Heinze,Neville,Rio,Solskjaer,Brown and Vidic? IMO they're better than average.

The way Fletcher and Evra are playing Id nearly put them in that bracket too. The jury is still out on Carrick, where as Silvestre,Richardson,Smith and O Shea can be classed as average

To all you Gerrard die hards...if Liverpool had a Roy Keane, an Essien or even Frank Lampard IMO theyd do better than Gerrard in midfield for Liverpool

yop

Good to get the 3 points, one of the easier games we have had this season condeming Liverpool to another year without a title, personally I think that Liverpool team is worse than last year, too much messing around with players and formations which leaves players not knowing what they are meant to be doing.
Again missing any sort of decent striker and without Gerard on full steam ahead then they are a ship without a captain. Fully expect them to hit for the top four but any chance of winning the league is already gone 2 months into the season.

United looked comfortable without excelling, whether that was to do with Liverpool or not is hard to tell. Thought Evra was excellent and is improving game by game. Rooney was again quite but who cares when you have a 2-0 win.

Seems it will be down to a 3 horse race, United to hit a bad patch which is usual but Chelsea are still playing poorly but joint top!

Sure theres always the Cup

redspider

In terms of Liverpool's record this season, the away form is abysmal. But, losses at Bolton and Everton are not easy matches for Liverpool it has to be said, and then v Chelsea and Man U. The draw v Sheff Utd was a bit dissapointing. But surely Liverpool will do better in away matches against the likes of Watford, West Ham and Charlton and many other teams.

Liverpool's home games have been easy enough, with wins against Newcastle, Spurs and West Ham. The only glitch being that draw v Blackburn. Liverpool are behind schedule but it is recoverable to get 4th place.

As for Man Utd, apart from the loss v Arsenal, they've had wins against Liverpool, Fulham, Newcastle and Spurs. Their away form is also good, but with wins against Charlton, Watford and Wigan, these were not the sternest of tests.

Taking an analysts perspective, you could say that Man Utd's points tally is statisically inflated at this juncture and Liverpool's is deflated. No, I'm not saying that Liverpool are on a par but things may change and the current 11-pt gap doesn't extrapolate over 38 games.


As for Chelsea, 2 pts dropped at home to Villa, and 3 pts away to Boro. They too will also have more difficult matches.

Arsenal have dropped 4 pts at home to Villa and Boro, have gained a notable win v Man U away, but lost that benefit by losing to Man C, a game they probably deserved to win.

Overall, Liverpool can take some solace that their journey to date has been more difficult than the others. It may not help much though.

Redspider

jesus_thats_gre

I see this thread is decending into the same **** as normal.. Liverpool have been playing terribly of late but it has been a difficult run of fixtures, i.e. Everton, Bolton, Chelsea, Blackburn and United. I will reserve judgement for a we while yet.

el rabitos

yop wrote:

Sure theres always the Cup

yes there is always the cup. something man utd were knocked out of last season by liverpool, theres no need to get condecending. its october, theres alot of football to be played before may.

PHB has a point to an extent that gerrard isnt the complete midfielder, but to anyone that actually watches liverpool play regularly thats nothing new. he is the best midfielder around going forward and right now benitez seems to be struggling to find the best position to keep that quality while keeping sissoko's ability to break up the oppositions play and alonso's abilitys to pass. it will take time, but constant rotation of the other personel isnt helping.

theres alot of difference between the under performing liverpool now and the underperforming liverpool team under a houllier that had run out of idea's. i think benitez knows what he wants from the squad, its just finding the right ballance between attack and defence will take time. even if it is frustrating.

congrats to united though, you have to beat the team put in front of u and they did.

yop

el rabitos wrote:

yes there is always the cup. something man utd were knocked out of last season by liverpool, theres no need to get condecending. its october, theres alot of football to be played before may.

Not condecending at all, just saying it as it is. Already 11 points behind at this stage of the season, with only 9 goals scored and a minus goal difference and with Arsenal and Chelsea yet to hit top gear does not bode well.
United well we all know for the past 4 or 5 years can be stop start, but with the good start to the season at least we are up there and in with a shout, should finish inside the top 6 this season at this rate, unlike what some boards "pundits" predicted.