Kitchen Units - Solid Maple Doors, chipboard or MDF carcasses

tcs

OK - I got quite a few opinions on MDF versus chipboard carcasses @ http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054975063.

My gut reaction is that the MDF's stronger but I wouldn't be an expert and maybe there are some high density chipboards that are as strong (or almost as strong).

I've had quotes for my kitchen from a few different places. 3 use laminated chipboard, 1 uses laminated MDF.

Given my gut instinct, it would seem that I should go with the guys who use MDF but there are a couple of reasons why I'm hesitating:

• I'm suspecting that dealing with that company could break my heart - they're doing a kitchen for my aunt at the moment and she seems to have been waiting forever for them - she had her old kitchen pulled out back in August to have drylining done on the understanding that they'd get to her early in September but unless they got to her during the last week, she could be still waiting!
• While their quote for vinyl coated doors comes into a range I was happy to stretch to (€4,400-ish), their quote for solid Maple doors was a bit steeper (€7,000-ish). They'd only one solid Maple Shaker door (Annlee maple or something like that) and told me about Irish maple warping etc. - that may be true but other places seemed to have at least a couple of choices of solid Maple Shaker at different prices.

So to the other options

Amongst the chipboard users, width varies from 15mm to 18mm.

The last guy I got a quote from gave me a

"that 18mm thing is just a marketing spiel, we use high density chipboard and there's never been a problem"

line but that may be just because it makes most sense for them economically!! This guy had 3 or 4 different Maple Shaker options and was quoting me €6,100 for supply & fitting (including plumbing- water & gas - but not electrics). I liked the sound of that just because it'd save me having to locate a plumber myself. This is the only one that quoted for plumbing aswell as carpentry work.

Another quote was €5,225 for vinyl doors, €5,535 (not much more!) for what was described as "Euro Maple Shaker" & €6,105 (a bit more again) for another type of Maple Shaker. When I asked the difference between the two solid maple ones, I was told that it was just different door suppliers charging different amounts. These guys were offering soft close doors etc.

I was in Kitchen World & they don't do Maple Shaker. I was told that they found that Maple yellows so they stopped doing it and found that Birch Shaker satisfied the market for the lighter coloured timber doors. Cash & Carry used to do a Birch Shaker but have now "discontinued that line".

Make in Blanch gave me a quote of around €2000 (very basic - 500mm or 600mm wide units, couldn't do 450mm door for slimline dishwasher etc.) but I would be curious about the quality of their carcasses.

It's all a bit maze out there... So what is the story with solid Maple Shaker doors? Are there ones to avoid etc.? Does Maple go yellow? What's the story with MDF v's chipboard? What's the story with 15mm v's 18mm? Is it a noticeable enough difference?

Etc.

I may only be in the house another 5-10 years so it's not a kitchen for life but I don't want sagging shelves & other problems.

All advice much appreciated!

Qwerty?

I'd have no problem using a 18mm chipboard carcase, as opposed to MDF. I'd prefer to spend the money you'll save on solid framing/doors.

Maple will go a lovely golden yellow/orange.

kadman

tcs wrote:

OK - I got quite a few opinions on MDF versus chipboard carcasses @ http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054975063.

My gut reaction is that the MDF's stronger but I wouldn't be an expert and maybe there are some high density chipboards that are as strong (or almost as strong).

I've had quotes for my kitchen from a few different places. 3 use laminated chipboard, 1 uses laminated MDF.

Given my gut instinct, it would seem that I should go with the guys who use MDF but there are a couple of reasons why I'm hesitating:

• I'm suspecting that dealing with that company could break my heart - they're doing a kitchen for my aunt at the moment and she seems to have been waiting forever for them - she had her old kitchen pulled out back in August to have drylining done on the understanding that they'd get to her early in September but unless they got to her during the last week, she could be still waiting!
• While their quote for vinyl coated doors comes into a range I was happy to stretch to (€4,400-ish), their quote for solid Maple doors was a bit steeper (€7,000-ish). They'd only one solid Maple Shaker door (Annlee maple or something like that) and told me about Irish maple warping etc. - that may be true but other places seemed to have at least a couple of choices of solid Maple Shaker at different prices.

So to the other options

Amongst the chipboard users, width varies from 15mm to 18mm.

The last guy I got a quote from gave me a line but that may be just because it makes most sense for them economically!! This guy had 3 or 4 different Maple Shaker options and was quoting me €6,100 for supply & fitting (including plumbing- water & gas - but not electrics). I liked the sound of that just because it'd save me having to locate a plumber myself. This is the only one that quoted for plumbing aswell as carpentry work.

Another quote was €5,225 for vinyl doors, €5,535 (not much more!) for what was described as "Euro Maple Shaker" & €6,105 (a bit more again) for another type of Maple Shaker. When I asked the difference between the two solid maple ones, I was told that it was just different door suppliers charging different amounts. These guys were offering soft close doors etc.

I was in Kitchen World & they don't do Maple Shaker. I was told that they found that Maple yellows so they stopped doing it and found that Birch Shaker satisfied the market for the lighter coloured timber doors. Cash & Carry used to do a Birch Shaker but have now "discontinued that line".

Make in Blanch gave me a quote of around €2000 (very basic - 500mm or 600mm wide units, couldn't do 450mm door for slimline dishwasher etc.) but I would be curious about the quality of their carcasses.

It's all a bit maze out there... So what is the story with solid Maple Shaker doors? Are there ones to avoid etc.? Does Maple go yellow? What's the story with MDF v's chipboard? What's the story with 15mm v's 18mm? Is it a noticeable enough difference?

Etc.

I may only be in the house another 5-10 years so it's not a kitchen for life but I don't want sagging shelves & other problems.

All advice much appreciated!

Hi tcs.

You have definitely got a lot of questions here, hopefully I can deal with some of them for you.

First of all caracases.

If you are looking for the best constructed form of carcase , stay away from mdf and chipboard. Multicore plywood for carcase construction is the best choice. It screws and glues excellently , is far stronger in thickness for screws into edges . It also takes finishes or colours better than mdf. For additional design requirements , it is far more adaptable for machining or routing , and glues better than the other two. Superior carcase construction uses multicore plywood. Do not confuse this with ordinary wbp ply , as its not the same thing.

Thickness.

18 mm is far stronger than 15 mm in any of the materials . Your advice that its a marketing spiel is misguided. 18mm is more expensive than 15 obviously, but again superior manufactured carcases are made with 18mm


Timber choice.

Maple is a beautiful timber , and any advice as to avoiding it over another timber is strange. All timbers will darken/yellow slightly on exposure to sunlight, but this is part and parcel of using timber. There are various finishes that will give protection against changing of colour due to exposure to sun light , so check with the manufacture. Again the advice that Irish maple is prone to warping is strange. I dont know of any main supplier that uses Irish maple for kitchen manufacture on a large scale, in fact maple , sycamore , birch have never had any significant differences in their warping characteristics in my experience, having used all types of timbers.


In short, I would go for , plywood carcases , 18 mm, front face frame rebated or grooved onto the carcases and shelves for support. Cocked bead around the internal of the face frame detail. Shaker style doors should not be that expensive , as shaker style panels are traditionally flat and not moulded, there fore panels can be used from maple or birch veneered plywood 9mm, which is cheap.

Chipboard and mdf constructions are crap in my opinion. Most assemblies of mdf in kitchen construction do not bore pilot holes into end gables if its hand constructed, this causes the mdf to split at screw holes near the gable ends.
Knockdown constructions are better, but are not as strong as a plywood screwed and glued carcase.

I hope this helps

kadman

tcs

Whaow! Thanks for that detailed response Kadman!!

Re.

In short, I would go for , plywood carcases , 18 mm, front face frame rebated or grooved onto the carcases and shelves for support. Cocked bead around the internal of the face frame detail.

The advice on plywood carcasses makes a lot of sense. Thing is, who does plywood carcasses these days at prices not much more than what Cash & Carry & the likes charge?? I'm assuming that I'd need to be considering a kitchen for life really to justify the expense, wouldn't I?

To put it in context, the house is a 2-up, 2-down mid terraced house in Drimnagh. I'm 18 months in the gaff & no offence to Dublin or anything but I'd hope to escape down the country in 5 years or so (but you never know what'll happen around the corner & I could be here for 10 years!!). There doesn't seem to be much point in me pumping a lot into the kitchen - I want it nice & functional during the time I'm here and it's gotta look well for prospective buyers. A lot of money spent on the kitchen will not necessarily be recouped when I do move on.

BTW - I may be a bit of a pleb here but "rebated or grooved onto the carcases", "cocked bead"? Though I started a 10 week night course in woodwork in a VEC in Sept to "broaden my mind" to this stuff, that terminology has me asking "what the??". One other terminology clarification - what does wbp mean in "ordinary wbp ply"?

Re.

Shaker style doors should not be that expensive , as shaker style panels are traditionally flat and not moulded, there fore panels can be used from maple or birch veneered plywood 9mm, which is cheap.

That's what I thought which is why I asked the guy who was quoting me a lot more for solid maple doors than vinyl whether he could get other maple doors besides the one he was quoting me for & I got the spiel about quality doors that don't warp - sales talk me thinks!

Chipboard and mdf constructions are crap in my opinion.

OK Kadman, you do what you do & take pride in it but if your back was to a wall and you absolutely had to choose between two inferior options - 18mm chipboard or 18mm MDF, which would you go for?? Is one equally as bad as the other?

Oh & another terminology question - what do you mean by "Knockdown constructions"?

And thanks again for the in-depth feedback on this!

tcs

kadman

Hi tcs

Old habits die hard, and I would always be orientated towards the best quality product, but i understand your requirements , and I realise you are looking for the best value for money out come, so with that in mind....


Cheapest option.

If you have attended a woodwork course , maybe you feel confident enough to purchase the carcases from suppliers already made, as there are a few around. And then go and buy the doors yourself from a supplier. And fit the carcases your self, and hang the doors on them, as the carcases will come pre drilled for door hanging. That is with out doubt the cheapest option.
You could start on a small unit to test your self, say a bedside locker, and try it out. Kitchens are just a collection of boxes with adjustable feet on them, and doors fitted.

Best value materials.

Carcases , either chipboard or mdf are suitable. Personally i would opt for white mdf. If the edges of the mdf was bored for a screw, as opposed to just screwing it in with no pilot hole. 18 mm is less prone to splitting , and should not be excessively more expensive per carcase. WBP ply wood is the slightly better grade of plywood than normal construction plywood used for shuttering, and in laymans terms it has been referred to as " water, boil , proof ", in short, not affected by reasonable amounts of moisture.
You could use " HDF " grade mdf, or " high density fibre board ", suitable for outside use and a far denser naterial than ordinary mdf, but more expensive.

Edging

Carcase edging could be pinned on 6 mm timber slips. Same effect as a 200 mm face frame, but quicker and cheaper.

Knockdown construction fittings are mechanical fittings used to join the mdf gables to shelves with out screws and glue. More predominant in a large manufacturing plant, but can be done by an extremely competent diy er.

If you have embarked on a woodwork course, fairplay to you and good luck, and it would be a great opportunity to do this kitchen as much as you can yourself, so that you will be fully able for your new country kitchen project in a few years time. The guys on the " Woodcraft " forum will give you all the help and guidance you need, they are not short on good ideas over there.

Maybe delly would like to move it over their , if its getting too technical at the moment.

Obtw , cocked beading is the little raised moulding around the drawer fronts on your antique pieces of furniture.

kadman

kleefarr

Personally I wouldn't touch MDF. I've seen what has happened to other peoples cupboards etc after water has been in contact with them.

ThomasH

kadman wrote:

Hi tcs.

You have definitely got a lot of questions here, hopefully I can deal with some of them for you.

First of all caracases.

If you are looking for the best constructed form of carcase , stay away from mdf and chipboard. Multicore plywood for carcase construction is the best choice. It screws and glues excellently , is far stronger in thickness for screws into edges . It also takes finishes or colours better than mdf. For additional design requirements , it is far more adaptable for machining or routing , and glues better than the other two. Superior carcase construction uses multicore plywood. Do not confuse this with ordinary wbp ply , as its not the same thing.

Thickness.

18 mm is far stronger than 15 mm in any of the materials . Your advice that its a marketing spiel is misguided. 18mm is more expensive than 15 obviously, but again superior manufactured carcases are made with 18mm


Timber choice.

Maple is a beautiful timber , and any advice as to avoiding it over another timber is strange. All timbers will darken/yellow slightly on exposure to sunlight, but this is part and parcel of using timber. There are various finishes that will give protection against changing of colour due to exposure to sun light , so check with the manufacture. Again the advice that Irish maple is prone to warping is strange. I dont know of any main supplier that uses Irish maple for kitchen manufacture on a large scale, in fact maple , sycamore , birch have never had any significant differences in their warping characteristics in my experience, having used all types of timbers.


In short, I would go for , plywood carcases , 18 mm, front face frame rebated or grooved onto the carcases and shelves for support. Cocked bead around the internal of the face frame detail. Shaker style doors should not be that expensive , as shaker style panels are traditionally flat and not moulded, there fore panels can be used from maple or birch veneered plywood 9mm, which is cheap.

Chipboard and mdf constructions are crap in my opinion. Most assemblies of mdf in kitchen construction do not bore pilot holes into end gables if its hand constructed, this causes the mdf to split at screw holes near the gable ends.
Knockdown constructions are better, but are not as strong as a plywood screwed and glued carcase.

I hope this helps

kadman

Hi TCS/Kadman

Just my two cents worth of info.

Kadman, you have been around the block a few times so feel free to correct me

If you are looking for the best constructed form of carcase , stay away from mdf and chipboard

Why?

Chipboard and mdf constructions are crap in my opinion

I do not agree that chipboard is not good enough for cupboards, in my opinion it is up to the cabinet maker/fitter to make sure to set the standard high when doing the job. After all, if a fitter fits a melamine kitchen with shelves that cannot stand big pots and pans then surely the problem is not the chip cupboards?

after all as you have mentioned

Kitchens are just a collection of boxes with adjustable feet on them, and doors fitted

melamine carcasses have been around for donkey years and are here to stay. It is affordable to those who don't want to spend a fortune on solid wood (I am one of them ) or to those who only need a new kitchen in the short term but they are very practical.

MDF is heavier, more expensive and absorb water quicker than chipboard.

All of the bigger suppliers like CashandCarry, The Panelling Centre, Noyeks Newmans, etc. uses 18mm chipboard melamine for their carcasses. I agree with Kadman that 18mm is far stonger and I am not aware of too many companies that users 15mm?

Again, Maple is a beautiful colour and ALL timbers will go slightly yellow over time so do not believe you have been advised correctly about Maple going yellow as an excuse not to sell it.

Kadman, question for you?

Multicore plywood for carcase construction is the best choice

Can you elaborate more on this multicor plywood as I am not too farmiliar with it and do you know of any kitchen companies that use this as a standard?

TCS:

(including plumbing- water & gas - but not electrics). I liked the sound of that just because it'd save me having to locate a plumber myself. This is the only one that quoted for plumbing aswell as carpentry work.

Not to many companies want to do the electrical or plumbing but I know a fitter that includes this in his installation package, although he does not do it himself - I believe he deals with contractors but again it takes the head ache away from you in dealing with 3/4 different tradesmen.

If you are not going for a kitchen for life then opt for the 18mm melamine carcasses because you can get a very good designed kitchen, which will be strong enough at a reasonable good price, just shop around.

kadman

Hi Thomash,

I imagine that the standard for the kitchen will be set by the budget of the client, as opposed to the cabinetmakers wishes.

Chipboard is the lower end of the scale, mdf further up , and plywood construction the best. Chipboard and mdf will suffer far more from water exposure than will multicore ply. You will recognise multicore from about 10+layers in 9 mm plywood, sort of material used for top quality jigsaw puzzles, you'll know the stuff when you see it.

As an industry standard chipboard and mdf will be used by the large commercial manufacturers. And ply by hand made kitchen outlets at the uper end.

Chipboard and mdf do not perform at any where near multicore ply , whether you are screwing , gluing, or assembling. It is far stronger than either ply or chipboard.

I dont re call saying chipboard was not good enough for cupboards. Its a budget call, if you are on a budget, chipboard or mdf. If you want the best , plywood is the choice.

Thats all just my opinion tho...:p

kadman