Glorified Tax Collecters

bbability

Just to say with another poor weekend on our countries roads and having travelled nearly 500miles this weekend around the country. While en route home yesterday I saw not 1 Garda car travelling in traffic in either direction. However on different STRAIGHT stretches of road, you guessed it... Speed checks. In fact the first one was on a dual carriage way. Guard not wearing Hi-viz parked on Hard shoulder with hazard lights on unmarked veahicle. Not a sinner on the road and probably not a chance of any accidents on this stretch of road. Second checkpoint was on a straight stretch of single lane road. Speed limit drops suddenly from 100 to 80km/h. The car in front of me paniced jammed on the brakes and nearly caused an accident only I anticipated his reaction.
The third and final Speed check was on the Naas Road. Hairdryer out the window doing what I don't know but a bimer went passed me at speed and the mule didn't even flinch. Now i'm sure between them yesterday they collected a fair few bob for their boss. But in that space of time, the amount of poor driving, poor overtaking, excessive speeding I witnessed and not one Garda car marked or unmarked driving in traffic patrolling our roads. Instead they collecting Tax. How long more are we going to put up with this?

overdriver

As long as we remain the sheep we are, I would imagine.

It IS the last week of the month, and we all know what that means. Targets must be met. Even though there are gardai here on this board, who claim there are no quotas, it cannot be a coincidence that we see a lot more speed and tax checks the end and start of a month?

Seth Brundle

bbability wrote:

I saw not 1 Garda car travelling in traffic in either direction.

Are you including unmarked cars?

bbability wrote:

Speed limit drops suddenly from 100 to 80km/h. The car in front of me paniced jammed on the brakes and nearly caused an accident only I anticipated his reaction.

It souonds like you were too close to them anyhow. Any accident would have been your fault.

bbability wrote:

Now i'm sure between them yesterday they collected a fair few bob for their boss.

The money collected goes to the exchequer - not the Gardai.

Gurgle

overdriver wrote:

it cannot be a coincidence that we see a lot more speed and tax checks the end and start of a month?

Just a thought - maybe if everyone tried to stay inside the speed limits and paid their road tax, it wouldn't be a problem?

Seth Brundle

Gurgle wrote:

Just a thought - maybe if everyone tried to stay inside the speed limits and paid their road tax, it wouldn't be a problem?

motor tax checkpoints are beneficial to the gardai to detect other offences so I presume the gardai would not like to see everyone adhere to this law.
However, whilst Im not endorsing motor tax evasion, it is an inherently unfair system and I would welcome any form of protest against it!

Gurgle

kbannon wrote:

However, whilst Im not endorsing motor tax evasion, it is an inherently unfair system and I would welcome any form of protest against it!

I agree, its totally unfair. All taxes should be paid at the pump.

Problem is, this being Ireland, if they decided to change the system they would manage to come up with something even worse.

overdriver

@ Gurgle:
I do. Both of them. Please descend forthwith from yon high-horse. Obviously you've never been hassled needlessly at a check point, because you've just bought your car, or there's been a foul-up at their end, like I have?

My problem is with the absolute cynicism of it. Try get a squad car to your house if there's been a break-in, for example, at these times.


@kbannon. I wholeheartedly agree with you. The French are great at mass protest against things like this. We should take a leaf from their book.

Jumpy

overdriver wrote:

@ Gurgle:
I do. Both of them. Please descend forthwith from yon high-horse. Obviously you've never been hassled needlessly at a check point, because you've just bought your car, or there's been a foul-up at their end, like I have?

My problem is with the absolute cynicism of it. Try get a squad car to your house if there's been a break-in, for example, at these times.


@kbannon. I wholeheartedly agree with you. The French are great at mass protest against things like this. We should take a leaf from their book.

Wont happen for a while I think, the French are revolution experts.
The Irish have been repressed for so long complaining is not one of their strong points. Its definitely getting better though.

I wonder what would happen if Europe only had one government.
Just thinking of it now.... Emperor Bertie Ahern.

prospect

Well, I for one would say that the Gardai are equally to blame for the road deaths as the people driving the cars.

Last night, I was travelling into Naas from Kilcullen. There is an outrageously long stretch of 50Km/h before you come into the town. And as was pointed out on another thread, the end of month revenue exercise is underway.
I have been travelling this road for many years. I have never seen an accident, never seen a close call, never even seen anyone driving fast/dangerously or overtaking. However, last night, just over the brow of a hill there is a garda jeep parked (bear in mind, this is about 1 minute walk from the garda station) and two gardai waiting to catch people going 5Km/h over the limit.

Now, I know they should not be doing 5Km/h over the limit. However, I do think the resources wasted in this money making scam would be bettered served on dangerous back roads, or nearer to pubs, or around accident black spots.

So, some may argue that the people stopped last night should not have been barely breaking the speed limit.
But...
I will argue that the Gardai should have been policing areas where people are more likely to die, and their regular visability in these areas would reduce the likelyhood of people taking risks and causing accidents.

Drax

Came across a checkpoint just outside Slane yesterday. I watched as the Garda stopped the traffic and literally stuck his head inside the car probably to see if he could get a whiff of drink. Fair play to them. Good to see.

ambro25

overdriver wrote:

(...)The French are great at mass protest against things like this. We should take a leaf from their book.

That's probably why they don't have road tax anymore, and haven't had for a number of years now (But it gets picked up elsewhere, of course )

Matter of fact, I'm repatriating my 'leisure car' there in a couple of months.

For about 1000 kms per year (convertible 2 seater + 1 infant = 3 or 4 long weekends in summer and that's it), it costs me here: €550+ in road tax (1,8L) and €600+ in insurance (FC, full NCB).

Transport excepted (2 ferries and about 450 kms), it costs me there: €32 for putting it onto FR plates and €65 for French NCT. Insurance fully-comp for less than 5000 kms per year = €175.

That's called voting with my wheels

On the topic of beginning/end of month increased enforcement, I can't say that I haven't noticed it. It's clear as day, for any person driving regularly day in/day out, tbh.

But then, to get back to the French parallel (so to call it), enforcement over feels like it has tripled or quadrupled over the past 2 to 3 years (under Sarkozy as Interior Minister, not wanting to get political here, but there ya go), and average French driver behaviour has changed very noticeably over that period. Especially the drink driving thing.

Gurgle

overdriver wrote:

@ Gurgle:
I do. Both of them. Please descend forthwith from yon high-horse. Obviously you've never been hassled needlessly at a check point, because you've just bought your car

I have indeed been so hassled.
But I'm not protesting - I wish they would take every fecker off the road who has no insurance, shoot drunk and dangerous drivers and fine anyone caught with no tax/license.

I don't see how they would hope to catch them without checkpoints.

ambro25

Gurgle wrote:

I don't see how they would hope to catch them without checkpoints.

With a database, SORN declarations and automatic issue of fines à la UK DVLA? Oh, and no tax disc issued unless insurance is proven - again à la UK DVLA?

'Tis a nice catch-22: (i) u get insured or else u can't get taxed, (ii) if u dont get taxed in time u get automatically fined, (iii) if u don't pay the tax and fine(s) the vehicle is seized and destroyed (AFAIK this last one, but there are plenty of precedents already).

I'm not evangelising the UK system and that we should "do everything like them", but it seems to be working well enough over there.

There are much better systems, Luxembourg springs to mind and would be a close fit, e.g. in terms of NCT (central venue for it, but run publicly), road tax (there isn't any, it's in the fuel duty), license plate stays with you not the car (bit harder to 'dissolve lineage/ownership' of car), etc. all that with a small national population, whereby it's easier to implement such changes than in a 60m inhabitants country (FR, DE, UK).

As for drunk drivers, unfortunately the EHCR has something to say about lining them up and... but I'm sure they could be made more of an example yet, without summary termination

EDIT so let's resume:
* No more provisonal licenses (init::flamesuit)
* Biannual NCT
* Single 'token' road tax (say, €50)
* Increase fuel duty
* License plate personally assigned by name on obtaining driving license (more can be bought if you want to own more than 1 car, yet another earner to replace car tax)
* Proof of insurance compulsory for obtaining road tax certificate
* Untimely renewal of road tax = automatic 'deterrent' fine (tax doubled, €100 - enough to inconvenience, not enough to be a real hardship)
* Non-renewal of road tax allowed with Statutory Off-Road Notification
* Non-renewal of road tax not with SORN within 12 months of expiry = vehicle can be seized and disposed of

...anyone wnat to make a nice letter / petition to the right Minister in charge?

bbability

kbannon wrote:

Are you including unmarked cars?

YES

kbannon wrote:

It souonds like you were too close to them anyhow. Any accident would have been your fault.

Well that's a quote from the handbook of "presumption is the mother of all f*ck ups!" How can you reply to my post "it sounds like".
Were you there at the time? I was, repeat WAS NOT too close to "them".
As I said I anticipated the cars reaction. I saw the situation way before he did. Thanks to the Advanced Driving Course;)
He didn't just slow to 80km just because the sign said so. He braked from around the 100km mark to nearly 50km becuase he saw a guard standing just inside the 80km zone and paniced

kbannon wrote:

The money collected goes to the exchequer - not the Gardai.

Just on this point I can't understand why they(the government) don't give back a perentage of monies, fines collected to fund the road safety and policing system. It seems all the money goes into one pot and out to about a hundred pots.

overdriver

They were on the Tallaght bypass last night, just inside the 60 kph zone, at the garage. Some lucky winner was having a ticket written. It was just where the limit rises from 50 kph to 60. I can't see how people could get much faster there, before the road links onto the M50, so it would be interesting to see what me boyo was done for, speedwise.

I IS the end of the month, after all...

prospect

bbability wrote:

Well that's a quote from the handbook of "presumption is the mother of all f*ck ups!"

Brilliant,

Do you mind if I use that quote in further discussions. Its not exactly unusual for boards users to presume facts and take the moral high ground, when the know absoloutly nothing about the facts of the situation.

LOL....

R.O.R

The Red Forrester was out on the M1 last night.

The missus saw him pull 2 people over (she had to leave the M-Way for fuel and re-join).

Stuck dead to 120kph all the way but he must have been even further north than Donore by the time I got there, or on his way back south.

Haven't seen that car in evening rush hour for a while - coincidence?

Wishbone Ash

R.O.R wrote:

Haven't seen that car in evening rush hour for a while - coincidence?

What would be the point of setting up a speed check when no one is exceeding the limit? :rolleyes:

You are probably less likely to see an unmarked Garda vehicle in heavy traffic. I can assure you that they are there.


I personally have no problem with the Gardai doing speed checks on any road and I don't think it really matters if revenue is collected. If you object to being fined, just stay within the limits.

Sam Vimes

Drax wrote:

Came across a checkpoint just outside Slane yesterday. I watched as the Garda stopped the traffic and literally stuck his head inside the car probably to see if he could get a whiff of drink. Fair play to them. Good to see.

i'm fairly sure that's classified as an illegal search. are gardai allowed search people the they pull over nowadays?

kippy

Great, another thread bitching about the Guards enforcing the law and bemoaning the fact that they dont enforce the law in the accident blackspot areas. Speeding fines are just another tax and our car tax system sucks.

I dont know how many times it has to be said but if you dont agree with the "tax" on speeders in relation to speeding fines, then dont speed or break the speed limit at any time. The guards are doing a job-they also police blackspots but its more dangerous using a speed gun in these areas.

A lot of serious accidents happen on straight stretches of road-as has been seen in the past number of weeks, not bendy country roads are not the only source of serious accidents. A lot of accidents involve vehicles going over the speed limit. So it it only fair to suggest that guards set up speed checks whereever and whenever they chose to get people to slow down. Perhaps the people that speed in these 50kph zones are also the ones who speed in the 100kph zones, so getting caught once may make them think twice about speeding else where-who knows, this very concept could have saved dozens of lives thus far-but its not something that can be measured.

This country is changing for the better in driving enforcement but at the end of the day the ultimate responsibility of safe driving rests with the driver. The guards and government cant nammy us and hold out hands when driving at all times.

Road tax, whether you like it or not is a part of living in this country. Not agreeing with it is not an excuse not to have it. If you cant aford it then you should live within your means and buy a vehicle that is cheaper to tax.

On another point, a swedish friend of mine who is now living in Ireland has said to me on a number of occasions that the speed limits on some roads are way to high. The speed limit on the Gort to Loughrea road is 100kmph, a slightly better quality road in sweden would have a speed limit of 70kph, what would happen in this country if all road limits were reviewed properly, probably an outcry because of the lowering of the limit on decent looking road, but also a drop in road deaths.

Wishbone Ash

Commander Vimes wrote:

i'm fairly sure that's classified as an illegal search. are gardai allowed search people the they pull over nowadays?

I don't think that looking into a car is regarded as a 'search'. Are they supposed to divert their eyes while they ask a few questions? :rolleyes: Is looking into the back seat to ensure that a child is properly restrained now a 'search' of the vehicle? What if the driver produces a restricted licence? Does the Garda now have to get a search warrant to check that the vehicle is restricted also?

prospect

Wishbone Ash wrote:

I personally have no problem with the Gardai doing speed checks on any road and I don't think it really matters if revenue is collected. If you object to being fined, just stay within the limits.

kippy wrote:

I dont know how many times it has to be said but if you dont agree with the "tax" on speeders in relation to speeding fines, then dont speed or break the speed limit at any time. The guards are doing a job-they also police blackspots but its more dangerous using a speed gun in these areas.

I think you guys are missing the point.

I am a tax payer, and a road user.
How much does it cost and what does it achieve, having two gardai, and a garda vehicle and equipment sit on a 50Km/h road in the early evening, and fining regular punters for driving barely over the limit at non-lethal, low accident risk speeds?

As I said, people like you and me are paying for this. I personally would rather see my tax spent on having Gardai actively patrolling back roads, and monitoring pubs and areas where speeding and dangerous driving is most prominant. These are the lethal situations, and the road users of this country would be best served if the Gardai were to adopt a more proactive and intelligent approach to reduceing road deaths.

In simple terms. Fining people for barely breaking limits (i know they shouldn't do it), on safe roads at safe times is NOT going to help reduce the number of people dying on our roads.

prospect

kippy wrote:

On another point, a swedish friend of mine who is now living in Ireland has said to me on a number of occasions that the speed limits on some roads are way to high. The speed limit on the Gort to Loughrea road is 100kmph, a slightly better quality road in sweden would have a speed limit of 70kph, what would happen in this country if all road limits were reviewed properly, probably an outcry because of the lowering of the limit on decent looking road, but also a drop in road deaths.

Just because your friend is from Sweden, doesn't mean he/she is right, or an expert on road speed limits!

overdriver

The fact these threads keep occuring means people are getting regularly pissed off with Garda resources being utilised in this way. Personally, I don't want to see another post telling us to put up or shut up. We are too compolacent as it is.

Gardai who are members here have told us that checks do not happen on bad roads where accidents occur because it is unsafe for them to do so, and they also need a clear line of sight on the speeding vehicle for the radar to lock on.

Unfortunately, speeders seem to know this, and you are much more likely to see a yahoo caning his car on a back road than the places which frequently see Garda speed checks. They are not the same people, despite what the Gardai say, and the amounts the limits are broken by are not the same either.

NobodyImportant

prospect wrote:

Just because your friend is from Sweden, doesn't mean he/she is right, or an expert on road speed limits!

What about my friend Dieter from Germany!! (ha ha ha) He Thinks limits like 60kph at Kilmacanogue on a dual carraigeway or the old 50kph limit on the Naas Dual Carriageway were ridiculous.

I did about 1,500 kms in August in Germany and I was amazed by their road system & disciplined drivers. You could be driving along on a de-restricted Autobahn doing say 230kmh when you see a speed limit for 120kph. My Irish mentality kicked in giving out about this uneccesary reduction in speed, when we came upon a tight bend about a 1/4 mile on. As soon as the bend was cleared it was de-restricted again. The same happens on country roads.

People in Germany drive fast yet very safely.

Gardai should not be policing areas with ridiculously low speed limits. Its just a way of boosting convictions. The arguement of people who speed there will speed elsewhere does not hold true the whole time. Plenty of Boy races know exactly where these traps are often set and crawl through them and tear off afterwards. Whereas others who wouldnt be trying to set land speed records through across country roads might not slow down from 100-60 and only say go as far as 70kmh and they get booked.

Its not an excuse to say people who speed at these ridiculous spots are the dangerous ones, the sly people know these spots and speed elsewhere.

kippy

Just because your friend is from Sweden, doesn't mean he/she is right, or an expert on road speed limits!

Did I say that he was an expert-he is no more an expert that any of us are but they come from country with the same amount of road deaths in over twice the population, hence it was interesting to hear his view on the main reason why he thinks we have such a problem.

Gardai who are members here have told us that checks do not happen on bad roads where accidents occur because it is unsafe for them to do so, and they also need a clear line of sight on the speeding vehicle for the radar to lock on.

Exactly why they cant place speed checks on these roads. And again back to my point, a number of accidents in the last two weeks alone have occured on straight stretches of road, hence I see no reason why theses so called "good" roads should not have speed checks/checkpoints on them.

In simple terms. Fining people for barely breaking limits (i know they shouldn't do it), on safe roads at safe times is NOT going to help reduce the number of people dying on our roads.

In all fairness that is something that you cannot prove or disprove. Again I will say that those who break a 50kmph speed limit are just as likely to break a 100kmph speed limit, something that cannot be proven but a fair statement.
You cannot say that one person getting 2 points for being 5 k over the limit in a 50 K zone has not changed that persons intentions towards goin 20k over a 100k limit.
And as I mentioned, "safe roads" have had their fair share of accidents.

As for germans driving safely at speed.
These roads are far better than anything in this country, hence the needs for limites. "regional roads" and worse roads in germany have limits also and for good reason.
Kippy

prospect

kippy wrote:

In all fairness that is something that you cannot prove or disprove. Again I will say that those who break a 50kmph speed limit are just as likely to break a 100kmph speed limit, something that cannot be proven but a fair statement.

Likewise, that cannot be proved or disproved.

However,
they ARE far more likely to break the limit on dangerous back roads because they know that they are not policed and therefore they have little or no chance of getting caught.

And,
Until people who drive dangerously (not necessarily speeding) are constantly in fear of getting caught and prosecuted, they will continue as they are.

kippy

Until people who drive dangerously (not necessarily speeding) are constantly in fear of getting caught and prosecuted, they will continue as they are.

Very true, and I hope that day comes soon.

Just to clarify something, people do get prosecuted for breaking the law on the smaller roads-just not enough enforcement is carried out on these roads.
The enforcement wouldnt be as visable to checkpoint near built up areas which is probably why you hear about them less.