Young drivers to be target of tough new proposals

Cerdito

Tauren wrote:

Then i should be getting my money back of my driving instructor, and my mate should be getting it off his because we were both told to hit the brake followed by the clutch - were told not to worry about the gears because you are trying to stop in an emergency, the important thing is the brake and the clutch (clutch second)

Totally agree with you. I was taught by two separate instructors that you can stop in any gear, with third preferrable. The old "going down through the gears" procedure stems from days where brakes weren't to be trusted, so engine braking was used as a failsafe.

My mother and father completely disagreed with this, leading me to be very confused. Your friends may have had "old-school" testers who don't subscribe to stopping in a higher gear than second.

peasant

slightly OT ...but here it goes:

An "emergency stop" contains the word EMERGENCY, so supposedly you're facing one in that moment.

Never mind bloody gears, hit the brakes, hit them as hard as you can and if you have ABS, hit them even harder.

Actually break with both feet, because this way you will press the clutch as well ...but keep your hands of the blooming gear lever and on your steering wheel, because breaking alone might not do the trick and you might also have to steer around the obstacle as well.

Whosoever teaches to "emergency break" while shifting down the gears, deserves to be run over by his/her pupils while performing said maneuvre.

Vegeta

peasant wrote:

Whosoever teaches to "emergency break" while shifting down the gears, deserves to be run over by his/her pupils while performing said maneuvre.

beautiful

SouperComputer

layke wrote:

No gears increases the likelyhood of a skid.

Where did you hear this?

In an emergancy situation, unless you plan heel-toeing (not reccomended during your test!!) you are more likely to lock the driven wheels by downshifting due to the braking effect of the engine. If you overdo it with a downshift you can lock the wheels even with an ABS system. This is espcially easy to do on a slippery surface, the compression of the engine can lock the wheels and no ABS is going to help you. All you can do is release the clutch and pray

It could be argued that having the transmission\engine engaged means that there is more mechanical inertia and its harder to lockup, this is true to an extent, the only problem is that its even harder to unlock the wheels as you then have to overcome this inertia to unlock!

Being ginger with the clutch on the downshift is fine and dandy, but if the wheels are already on the edge of traction, even a progressive release of the clutch can easily cause a lockup.


Anyway, back OT.... I prettymuch echo peasant's sentiment. Provsional drivers are not the problem, they are just an easy scapegoat IMO.

Jimoslimos

Tauren wrote:

Then i should be getting my money back of my driving instructor, and my mate should be getting it off his because we were both told to hit the brake followed by the clutch - were told not to worry about the gears because you are trying to stop in an emergency, the important thing is the brake and the clutch (clutch second)

Tauren you're correct, don't have a clue what layke is on about. I've done an emergency stop as part of the test in England and the way its taught is to keep both hands on steering wheel, brake firmly (not sharply) and just as the engine is about to stall (or car comes to a halt) engage clutch. This way (I was told) you have greater braking power for longer.

Anyhow regarding OT I can't see how doubly penalising learners for the same crime is going to solve anything. Sure once the restriction/probation period is up drivers will end up driving like newly qualified drivers again (i.e, postponing the inevitable)

Gary ITR

Iguana Bob wrote:

Go for gsr best car iv had so far in the wet its great beast to slide bit of a rip on petrol insuranc only 1800 21 provo licence with ma as main driver

Just read that in THIS post. This is the kind of thing we are up against, the car he's talking about is around 200bhp and he's lashing around sliding in wet conditions and withouit ever doing a driving test or worse still after failing a driving test

TKK

I would agree that the testing system and enforcement needs a major overhaul.

On a related note my sister did a test last week. Her instructor was told before she came back in (by another tester she got talking to) that she would fail based on which tester she had gone out with. She did. WTF sort of carry on is this?Her instructor is putting in a complaint.

Gary ITR

Everything needs to be looked at, there are some great stretches of road around this country like on the naas rd city centre bound at coca cola where the speed limit is 60kmph. it's three lanes wide for god's sake and there is always a speed check there, if it's not a gatso van it's a motorbike guard. Then we have numerous stretches where the limit is ridiculously high, small roads in the dublin mountains that are 80kmph. All this crap that different categories of roads have a set speed limit, every road should be individually assessed. And the guards should then stop putting their gatso vans and speed checks on the safer roads and stick them on the dangerous roads

smemon

im sick of this rubbish.

if the gardai and the government want to reduce road deaths, they should implement character judgement programmes and refuse to give people a license for example if they've convictions in other areas in the past.. if they've a violent history.. if they have modified cars to gain extra speed in any way.....

every young driver forks out about €4000 a year just to be on the road (car,insurance, tax, petrol, upkeep). These are the biggest earners for the government, so the government don't give a dam about the roads/drivers until someone dies.

if the government are so serious about saving lives, why don't they increase the driving age to 21 and fine L drivers without a passenger?

it's simple, but will result in lost revenue which the government view as more important than people's lives. :mad:

a zero tolerence system is what is needed to save lives...

Stark

smemon wrote:

every young driver forks out about €4000 a year just to be on the road (car,insurance, tax, petrol, upkeep). These are the biggest earners for the government, so the government don't give a dam about the roads/drivers until someone dies.

Young people are only charged extra for insurance, the money from which the government doesn't see. So I don't know what your point is there.

smemon wrote:

it's simple, but will result in lost revenue which the government view as more important than people's lives.

a zero tolerence system is what is needed to save lives...

Well we could ban cars altogether and we can all cycle round the country.

layke

smemon wrote:

if they have modified cars to gain extra speed in any way.....

Now now, you'll incure my wrath

Car Mad

smemon wrote:

im sick of this rubbish.

if the gardai and the government want to reduce road deaths, they should implement character judgement programmes and refuse to give people a license for example if they've convictions in other areas in the past.. if they've a violent history.. if they have modified cars to gain extra speed in any way.....

every young driver forks out about €4000 a year just to be on the road (car,insurance, tax, petrol, upkeep). These are the biggest earners for the government, so the government don't give a dam about the roads/drivers until someone dies.

if the government are so serious about saving lives, why don't they increase the driving age to 21 and fine L drivers without a passenger?

it's simple, but will result in lost revenue which the government view as more important than people's lives. :mad:

a zero tolerence system is what is needed to save lives...

wat a heap of bs.i thought it happend to be most of the people killed in road deaths was between the ages of 20-30 after passing there test thinking there brilliant drivers and can defy the laws of gravity.in there high powered cars which they can afford to insure coz they have there licence.any retard can pass a driving test.it doesnt make them a brilliant driver.how can they blame provisional licence drivers for road deaths when the cars there driving can bearly reach 100kmph.If u ask me if ur 17 and can afford to have a car u deserve to be on the road just like everyone else.

smemon

Stark wrote:

Young people are only charged extra for insurance, the money from which the government doesn't see. So I don't know what your point is there.

well, isn't there government tax on insurance or any service/product for that matter? therefore the government does see more cash from higher insurance premiums.

Also, there is more money in it for the government from speeding/traffic offences from young boy racers.

I'm taking a wild guess here, but young male drivers are the biggest earners of all for the government out of everyone on the road.

Yes, they want to stop people dying, but they're not exactly doing a whole lot about it if i can legally get into a car on my own and drive without having ever driven before in my life on our main roads.

Show me how that saves lives? It's great for us (young people) because it's soo easy to drive without going through the hassle of tests or the limitations of not having a full license for a few years.

Also, i know a man who's had a FULL license for over 20 years and never driven a car in his life.

Don't try and tell me this government is doing everything they can. All the amnesty folk should be made to do a test now. Also, young people should be tested a few times and monitered via sat nav technology for a year or two after passing the test.

THAT'S what a government who wants to save lives does. No-nonsense, rigid systems, enforced rules, over the top penalties for law breakers.

If i smashed in your cars windows, keyed your car and stabbed all your tyre's because you parked in a disbaled spot (not saying you ever have or anything!), you'd soon get the message not to do it again. Thats the approach we need from the government.

maidhc

smemon wrote:

I'm taking a wild guess here, but young male drivers are the biggest earners of all for the government out of everyone on the road.

Nope. The people who buy large executive cars are.

smemon wrote:

If i smashed in your cars windows, keyed your car and stabbed all your tyre's because you parked in a disbaled spot (not saying you ever have or anything!), you'd soon get the message not to do it again. Thats the approach we need from the government.

If I park in a disabled space my car is lifted. No property damaged, but my wallet substantially lighter. Fair deal all round.

There is no law that can prevent muppets from killing themselves and others by doing stupid things that ordinary people don't have the facility to imagine happening.

Sandwich

prospect wrote:

The 80Km/h speed limit is a load of balls, unless the government start upgrading oll our national roads to include regular overtaking lanes. Otherwise, one provisional driver goes out on a long stretch of road, and everyone else is stuck behind them doing 80Km/h.

Whats the problem with 80kph if its safer for all? Full licence folk need to do their bit also and comprimise for the safety of all.

While the issue of learners regarding their licence as a full one and driving unaccompanied, on motorways, for years etc needs to be sorted, concentrating on learners is misguided. Accidents happen because people CHOOSE to drive dangerously, not because they do not know how to drive drive safely. Leaners tend to be younger. But younger tends to mean more reckless. Not necessarily that Learners are more reckless though. Enforcing correct driving behaviour and strong penalties for those caught is what is required to reduce accidents.

No one gets into their car thinking that if they speed or drive with alcohol they will kill themselves - and rightly so - the chances are very small. But the penalty great for the unlucky few. But got in knowing there was a 1 in 10 chance say, that if they did so they would loose their licence, then the behaviour would change.

Like the idea of the Australian system to have licence loss for fewer points for learners and provisional drivers.

Sandwich

layke wrote:

But that's how you are supposed to emergency stop.

No gears increases the likelyhood of a skid.


Vegeta fantastic post.

I thought that if you have ABS you will stop quicker with less chance of skidding if you dont use the gears. Is this wrong?

Sandwich

layke wrote:

Now now, you'll incure my wrath

Of course not. We know you only mod the car to make sure that it can do speeds you wouldnt dream of doing anyway :rolleyes:

Rudolph Claus

As the NCT people are to do 250,000 tests between now and next June, the former excuse of the backlog should no longer be valid.

Have you a backup for this statement? I thought mi read they were going to take 40,000tests in that period. 250,000 seems little optimistic, that`d be 4800 a week?

I believe its 40000 and they`d have the chance to conduct an additional 5000 aswell if they can manage.

Also, i read on another boards thread here that the driving test is down to 28weeks now because of the nct subcontractors. Thats also complete bullsh-it,,, ffs they have only started testing and 50% will probably have to reapply. Do people not think about things before posting.

DublinWriter

The government, as usual, will go for the soft option - target provo drivers.

To be honest, how many of you have seen an 'L' plate car doing a Nigel Mansell impersonation? I was stuck for 20 miles on a major 'N' road today behind some twitchy young-wan doing 30Mph. Sure there was a big queue of irate traffic behind her, but no was was getting killed.

To me, as one poster put it, the problem is with the younger male driver who is typically within 24 months of passing his test and suddenly thinks that he's playing GTA when he gets behind the wheel of his Golf GTi.

Most modern cars can have their max speed electronically limited, and even older cars have a 'gaffer' mechanism to do the same thing. A simple suggestion would be to electronically cap the max speed at which newly qualified drivers could go; I know there's probabally a zillion issues with doing something like that, but at least it's a start in thinking about solutions.

peasant

Problem is, the "speed limiter" has to be in the drivers head, not in the car.

You can happily play "chicken" with two cars that are limited to 80 km/h each and at the combined impact speed of 160 km/h you can happily die doing so as well.

furtzy

More lip service from the government which will die out in a few weeks

Here's my suggestions feel free to comment

1. Enforcement of all current driving laws by a visible garda presence. when was the last time anyone was stopped by a garda checkpoint. I've been driving 16 years and can honestly count the number of times I've seen a checkpoint on the fingers of one hand

2.. Crackdown on the boy/girl racer element. The type of idiot who thinks putting ON oversized wheels gives them F1 type grip. They honestly believe they know better than the design and engineering departments of the car manufacturers! New Zealand have a system where all modifications have to be inspected by a qualified engineer. If it doesn't pass its off the road

3. Look to other countrys for help and ideas in the form of a think tank. I really don't think Gay Byrne is the answer!. A man with no road design or engineering/safety background. He never even passed a driving test for Gods sake....only in Ireland!

DublinWriter

furtzy wrote:

1. Enforcement of all current driving laws by a visible garda presence. when was the last time anyone was stopped by a garda checkpoint. I've been driving 16 years and can honestly count the number of times I've seen a checkpoint on the fingers of one hand

I was randomly breathalyzed the Sunday before last in Meath on a back road. The same checkpoint was up on the same back road three weeks earlier checking licenses.

I can't speak for Dublin anymore, but the Traffic Corps in Meath are really on the ball these days.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

I am disgusted by these proposed changes to the law. It is more knee jerk reactionary rubbish all over again. The problem is not young drivers....the problem is not modified cars....the problem is not provisional licence holders.....the problem is drink driving on poor roads at night...these are mostly outside dublin also where geography means an increase in people driving to pubs.

The people being killed are not going to become better drivers because they have full licences or worse drivers because their cars are fast. You can kill yourself and others at 80 kph 100 kph or 60kph. The answer lies in education about responcible driving. A zero drink and drive policy and better road quality and lighting. Enforcing laws catches offenders but education will stop people offending.

There seems to be an attitude by some irish people that they are invunerable to the law and death. Drivers ed in school anyone?

REDZ

Problems
Provisional drivers-get rid of this second provisional bs, no driving on own without full licence. last time i heard 1/4 of all drivers are on provisionals

Monitoring after licence, gps whatever, at least 2years.

Maybe limit younger drivers to 1L cars, with no mods,until 25.

More drink driving check points, not random but targeted, in aus they test young drivers 8 times a year on average.

Better training, nobody knows how to use roundabouts ffs, use the telly to tell us.
More examiners, those guys threatened to strike if more were hired ffs, sack the lot of them shower of sh*tes.
Training in school, sure this countries public transport is so bad that everybody has to drive.

Focus on country roads, thats where it all happening, look at the signs with traffic deaths over the last years in dub and then check them out down the country

Better roads, in sweden they put a wire down the middle of national roads to reduce head ons.
More over taking lanes with lots of sign posts letting you know they are ahead.
Look at where accidents occur, blackspots, modify the road, put in street lights, warning signs etc..

Finally much more enforcement, with severe penalities for speeding and dangerious driving, with even more more severe points for younger drivers or those who just passed their tests, 11 points
Why do the guards even have to do traffic duties, it would make more sense to have dedicated traffic cops that get different training than other cops and don't have any juristisiction outside of the roads.
Rant over

cancan

So many driving experts on this forum.

I wonder how many of ye have never been involved in an accident, or tip of some sort.

Outrage outrage, rabble rabble - next week it'll be house prices.........

No amount of laws will prevent idiotic behaviour, so just let it go.........

furtzy

Reina Quaint Weapon wrote:

I am disgusted by these proposed changes to the law. It is more knee jerk reactionary rubbish all over again. The problem is not young drivers....the problem is not modified cars....the problem is not provisional licence holders.....the problem is drink driving on poor roads at night...these are mostly outside dublin also where geography means an increase in people driving to pubs.

The problem is with ALL of the above. Its an overall enforcement of all existing laws, and not a selective approach, that is needed.

smemon

i agree with most people points.

At the edn of the day, all that is required to solve this is a bit of cop on and maturity from all drivers of all ages.

Unfortunately, you can't teach that to people over night. Ultimately, it's parents who do that over a number of years. (Yes, im now having a pop at parents).

Would you let your 18 year old son on a first provisional, buy an old golf gti, have no 'l' plates up, kit it out to the last and drive around late at night?!

i know if i had a son, i'd give him a good lecturing and tell him to cop on. Some parents, due to years of damage, can't have that control and respect of their kids. However if parented correctly, all kids will respect their parents.

i know it depends on the individual ultimately but in order to avoid a smash up - it's simple. Don't speed and don't do anything stupid or irresponsible. One stupid decision and your dead.

i know if i died in a car crash due to me speeding, i wouldnt give a toss about myself, it'd be the girlfriend...family...friends. But i'll never do that because i have the COP ON not to do anything stupid.

that's all it takes. Pity we Irish don't have a lot of 'common' sense.

Seth Brundle

Car Mad wrote:

any retard can pass a driving test.it doesnt make them a brilliant driver.

If any retard can pass then why is the failure rate so high? The test is not expecting them to become brilliant drivers. It just expects that those who get a full licence can pass a minimum standard!

how can they blame provisional licence drivers for road deaths when the cars there driving can bearly reach 100kmph.If u ask me if ur 17 and can afford to have a car u deserve to be on the road just like everyone else.

3 points here:-
firstly, they are not blaming provisional drivers. They are stating the fact that there is a high proportion of young drivers, especially those on provisional licences who are getting involved in serious and fatal incidents
Secondly, are you really expect us to agree that most L drivers are in cars that won't exceed 100km/h? This is a motoring forum read by petrol heads. We know what these cars are capable of!
Lastly, you make driving sound like a right. It isn't. Its a privilege. Sure, if someone has the money they can get a car, prov. licence, tax, insurance, etc. Does that mean that they should be entitled to drive?
Please, its hard enough to read your posts. Please make them worthwhile for those that try to read them!

Sandwich wrote:

I thought that if you have ABS you will stop quicker with less chance of skidding if you dont use the gears. Is this wrong?

ABS basically repeatedly releases the pressure from the disk/drum. In the dry on a straight line it may in fact increase (by an inch or two!) braking distance. Where it comes into its own is in the wet and/or when turning whilst braking. It has nothing to do with gears.

Lemming

kbannon wrote:

firstly, they are not blaming provisional drivers.

Actually they are. As others have pointed out, the easy scape-goat since provsional licenceholders/leaners have no voice and everyone else just immediately drops into the stereotyped opinion of "f00000k sake they shouldnt' be on the road". That would be a great idea .. well .... actually maybe it is since there'll be no more drivers once the current lot all die off ergo the roads will be safer since apparently full license holders never do anything dangerous or stupid or cause accidents ... :rolleyes:

I'd also like to point out that everyone seems to automatically equate "young" driver with "learner" driver which kind of gives weight to the point that provisional drivers are being equated with the anti-christ, George Bush, house prices, WMD, Bertie's dodgy money and whatever else comes to mind.

They are stating the fact that there is a high proportion of young drivers, especially those on provisional licences who are getting involved in serious and fatal incidents

I'd be interested to see the statistics on the number of fatalities that are young, male and full licence holders vs. those that are provisional. I imagine the figures might make for interesting reading and do a little dancing on the grave of assertions that every wrong on this planet is somehow the preserve of provisional license-holders. Whilst we're at it, why not throw in Iraq, the environment and global warming whilst we're at it ...

TBH, the problem isn't provisional licence holders. It's driver attitude in general. People believe that they can get away with whatever idiotic behaviour they choose to carry out behind the wheel. And time and again they don't get caught, and they keep onj doing it until the statistical numbers game catches up with them and they run out of luck. I believe the correct response to most issues on our roads can be summed up as follows: active enforcement of existing traffic laws.

Seth Brundle

Lemming wrote:

Actually they are. As others have pointed out, the easy scape-goat since provsional licenceholders/leaners have no voice and everyone else just immediately drops into the stereotyped opinion of "f00000k sake they shouldnt' be on the road". Great idea Einstein .. well .... actually maybe it is since there'll be no more drivers once the current lot all die off :rolleyes:

But the RSA proposal will affect drivers both before and after they pass the test. However, whilst they are targetting young drivers with this initiative, there are other (inefficient?) initiatives out there targetting all drivers.