I am a fish / donk - can you help me??

5starpool

Gholimoli wrote:

here is the big picutre that i dont understand lads:

guy has $200 in his stack ,

he makes it $10 to play,
i suspect he has AA,KK and i have 73o but i know if he flop two pair or better i will stack him :
wow lets see

i think the odds of flopping two pair is something like 50:1(2%) (could be wrong about the odds here).

so we assume everytime we hit two pair we will stack him (winning $200) and everytime we dont we lose our $10.
lets do a simple EV for this genius idea:

i win $200 2% of the time so $200x2%=4
i lose $10 98% of the time so -$10x98%=-9.8

so over all my play has the EV of -5.8 .
sounds like a alot of FUN doesnt it.
i donno how i missed this big picture...

It was 15 preflop, not 10, and the odds of flopping trips or two pair is roughly 3.5% or ~28/1. Implied odds on that are good though, but I personally would think they are good enough against most players to justify, never mind the possibility of a K77 flop for example.

bops

nicnicnic wrote:

I know bops fairly well and he is a nice guy whom i love like a brother when extremely intoxicated. I haven't actually played that much with him and the first time i did play i thought him tight passive although he did beat me heads up in that tournament. I would imagine his game has improved since then

Bops I think i can get to the bottom of this seven rag syndrome you seem to be going through and as a psychologist yourself i would like you to digest my observations before dismissing them.

I believe it all stems back to the Irish Open this year when you came over the top of mister Black in the main event preflop with 7 4 os. Your cognitive thinking has somehow developed in a way that it assimilates any 7 rag as the nuts since that moment, now just call me Sigmund but get that super ego back in check man

Nicky Nicky Nicky....what can I say????
Honestly I do think you have hit the nail on the head buddy - honeslty!!
That play was and will remain the highlight in my short poker career for some time yet... For the record I knew 100% that he was at it - before i get more abuse : )

As a psychologist it is extremely difficult to analysize oneself - so I honestly do respect your opinion here...

It do find it very difficult to lay down any 2 cards at a cash table that are both below 8 - no joke...

But the fact remains that on a pure profit basis i have made a large loss with AA KK and AK whilst making a large profit with 7 rag or less...

100% truthful what more can I say????

White Knight

bops wrote:

I am successfully playing NL Hold’em for over 2 years.

Are you a winning online player?

Hectorjelly

Gholimoli wrote:

here is the big picutre that i dont understand lads:

i donno how i missed this big picture...

No no no, you are missing the BIG picture. Bops plays the player not the cards.

Hectorjelly

White Knight wrote:

Are you a winning online player?

you are missing the big picture (sigh)

bops

Gholi (sighhhhhhhhhhhh)

look! - just forget about it pleaseeeeeeeee !!!!!!!!

just wondering do you always bring your calculator with you when playing live tournies?? and is it allowed????



on a serious note: i (somehow) do value your opinions tho - thanks for the advice

ianmc38

Gholimoli wrote:

here is the big picutre that i dont understand lads:

guy has $200 in his stack ,

he makes it $10 to play,
i suspect he has AA,KK and i have 73o but i know if he flop two pair or better i will stack him :
wow lets see

i think the odds of flopping two pair is something like 50:1(2%) (could be wrong about the odds here).

so we assume everytime we hit two pair we will stack him (winning $200) and everytime we dont we lose our $10.
lets do a simple EV for this genius idea:

i win $200 2% of the time so $200x2%=4
i lose $10 98% of the time so -$10x98%=-9.8

so over all my play has the EV of -5.8 .
sounds like a alot of FUN doesnt it.
i donno how i missed this big picture...

Gholi if you add the times we hit straights, flushes and boats, then we have an EV of like +loads

jimbling

bobs man.... u really need to turn that sarco meter up a few notches. :eek:


Okay, I'm gonna be a bit controversiol once again and come to the aid of bobs.... well slightly anyway.

I reckon I will be one of the few (if not the only) people on boards that you will get any support from. And thats purely cause most here consider me a donk as well

But I think you really need to sit back and think a bit more about the reasons you do things.
I know where you're coming from. I understand the "concept" you seem to play your game by. Basically, playing -EV at times leads players who can only think in +EV ways to pay you off at times they might not usually do so. Another way of putting this is play like a donk occasionally to lead people to believe that you are a donk.
A lot of successful players play in a manner similar to this - doyle for example believes it's very beneficial for him to stick all his chips in on draws etc, even when not getting the correct odds. The reason for this is that you are less likely to get bluffed, and more likely to get paid off with a made hand.

There is a difference though... I don't think doyle, or any other semi-successful player would ever ever raise pf from utg with 72o. Thats the worst hand in poker ffs. Thats just purely terrible play. You don't need to go to these extremes. And in your 73 hand.... you might have gotten away with too if it wasn't for those pesky short stacks.
If both players had deep stacks such as yourself then the matter would be slightly improved. But by the time you were calling the turn with your draw (and at no stage were you getting correct odds) you had no implied odds. And it wasn't even a good draw.

I posted some remarks recently that caused a "sort of" similar reaction to this, so people might consider us to have a similar mindset. And to a certain degree they’re probably right.
I do believe strongly in mixing up my game. I believe in playing looser and more aggressively when my confidence is up, and when I'm running well. I will play much tighter and EV orientated when I am not feeling the game.

I agree with some of your concerns about the +EV mathematical method. But to me, its just missing some parts of the formula, rather than the whole thing been useless.
I did spend a lot of time on the EV curve when I first got involved in poker. And I'm still learning. You can’t play around with the rules until you actually know them. And I don’t plead that I do know them quite well enough (but I admit that that is a flaw, not an advantage), but like you I play predominantly for fun and a hobby, although I do like the extra pocket money.

Another part of your post you mention mood.... its obvious you let your emotions run your poker. This is never a good state (although almost everyone does this to some degree) for your game to be in. And mood is not the same as playing differently when confident. You should never do something in poker just because you “feel like it”. i.e. I think ill raise with 72o cause im bored.

You talk about seeing the bigger picture, and again I actually do think that can be limited by the maths mentality at times. But to be honest, you seem to go waaaaay beyond the bigger picture. man... you're outside the frame...... you're looking at the whole museum and the picture is just all muddled.


So, after all that what’s my point? Basically you play the way you play. You make money from the way you play, so not much of an issue really. You should probably tone it down a bit, but that’s up to you. But why try and convince people here that you're method is correct.
You say you were looking for a debate, but there is no poker forum in the world that you are going to find someone on your side of the argument – i.e. agreeing that raising UTG with 72o is a good play – even occasionally.
You act surprised about the +EV gang mentality, but that’s what the poker forum is for. They teach poker here - The only way you can "teach" poker is by teaching the proper way - the Mathematical way. So obviously pretty much everybody here is going to play that way.
There is a lot of people here that do make they're money from poker...and most others aspire to do so. Grinding out the dosh by playing correctly is the safest way to make money playing poker.
Then you come along and try and tell people they're doing it all wrong. :eek:


Note: I wrote this pretty quickly (busy day) and without a re-read, so apologies for spelling/grammar errors. And hopefully I have not phrased something badly enough to injure any thin skinned soul.

mewso

2 schools of thought here:-

The Poker Snob(s) - some of whom almost sneer at others play and can't seem to make a point or disagree without being condescending in some manner.
The Lunatic - who likes a gamble and thinks the snobs are a joke who take the game far too seriously.

The reality is of course that there are far more schools of thought than that but the 2 above tend to think only in those terms making them effectively as bad as each other. Those who fall in between or around these types are far more relaxed and accepting about these things probably due to experience.

By the way one mans fun is another mans boredom. Some folks may enjoy using Pokertracker, analysing their game and so on. Just a thought.

Gholimoli

ianmc38 wrote:

Gholi if you add the times we hit straights, flushes and boats, then we have an EV of like +loads

thats right + the what HJ pointed out about him playing the player ,the picture gets so big that it dosent fit on my pocket calculator and i think thats the reason why im missing the big picture.
on this basis does any one know of a big screen phone/calculator/MP3 player where i can tune in to this big picture .
i would much appreciated.

BOPS can you give me an inch size just how big my screen needs to be to fit the full big picture?

White Knight

Hectorjelly wrote:

you are missing the big picture (sigh)

cheers found it .. thanks for the advice

http://www.biggerpicture.org/

MrPillowTalk

I have limited experience playing you on tribeca.

From what I saw you were quite good at getting value on your strong hands however there are gaping big holes in your game that you are going to have to address. I thought you were a bit passive also. I think you may be telling yourself a poker lie as regards your profitability (but I could be wrong) just my impression.

I dont play "by the book" at all however if I have 27 utg it goes in the muck regardless of my read. You have made no reference to positional play at all really, and if you want to play this type of style successfully you should be demonstrating a far greater understanding of what you are talking about.

As regards your comments on pokertracker not really being poker:

-when a boxer has a fight he doesnt just get in the ring sight unseen, he and his trainer go through the stylistic tendancies of the opponent to identify weaknesses.

-when Urd play a european match against an unusual opponent scouts are sent to watch the opponent preceding number of matches to obtasin information regarding their style and ability.

Pokertracker allows you to analyse the tendancies and style of opponents not played regularly, it makes no sense not to use it.

My 2 cents, also when I met bops recently he seemed a nice chap, just to add.

ianmc38

Based on the above, i'm a snobby lunatic

Gholimoli

ianmc38 wrote:

Based on the above, i'm a snobby lunatic

now ive never seen you Ian and i dont know you but but i would say your just a retard who dosent know nothing about the bigpicture or poker .
now plz shut up.

jimbling

bops wrote:

But the fact remains that on a pure profit basis i have made a large loss with AA KK and AK whilst making a large profit with 7 rag or less...

100% truthful what more can I say????

wow.... you're definitely doing something seriously wrong/weird if that's the case.



guys... take it handy will ye... no need for such an almighty piss take. christ.... ye're in a right mood today :eek:

also, pillow (good post by the way) just reminded me about the pokertracker remarks... that was just silly too. I mean how could you say gathering information on your opponents is not real poker? or do you mean you treat it like cheating or something?

Hectorjelly

Gholimoli

jimbling wrote:

I mean how could you say gathering information on your opponents is not real poker? or do you mean you treat it like cheating or something?

use the FORCE Luke ,the force is with you...

MrPillowTalk

Hectorjelly wrote:

lmao

5starpool

Gholimoli wrote:

now ive never seen you Ian and i dont know you but but i would say your just a retard who dosent know nothing about the bigpicture or poker .
now plz shut up.

Leave that Irishman alone, and go back to Israel. or North Korea or wherever you are from.

azzeretti

I feel a locking coming on......

Anyone see the darts last night? Go on Anto!

Gholimoli

5starpool wrote:

Leave that Irishman alone, and go back to Israel. or North Korea or wherever you are from.

your lucky my uncles dont read this forum or else you may have exited early from the next plane trip you take you bold(or is it bald Mmmmm well they both go in your case:D ) infedal...

bops

once again many thanks for all of your imput - it has been much appreciated, i have really tried to reply to all of you to the best of my ability (crazy!!) - but its becomming an unhill struggle!!

anyways here goes:

White Night: Are you a winning online player?
Yes overall - but recently (over the last 3 months) i have dropped 15k mainly by aggrressively playing premium hands on 5/10 10/20 and 20/40 cash tables...and getting sucked out by fish/donks!!

Online, my strenghts lie on STTs and MTTs mainly 200$ 9, 6, and HU games and the larger buy-in MTTs - I AM NOT A WINNING ONLINE CASH PLAYER!!

Over last 3 months live I have made 4.5k in small tourneys and 18k in cash games

I'll try and spot and ignore all the sarcastic posts : )

Jimbling: Thankyou for your time and attention to this!

Another way of putting this is play like a donk occasionally to lead people to believe that you are a donk.
Correct! - exactly my view here
Thats the worst hand in poker ffs
Hence why I did it!! I got paid pff horribly in this hand - was not intentional to win here! - but i did the exact same move 2 orbits later with AA and got handsomely paid
I do believe strongly in mixing up my game. I believe in playing looser and more aggressively when my confidence is up, and when I'm running well. I will play much tighter and EV orientated when I am not feeling the game.
me too very much so
I agree with some of your concerns about the +EV mathematical method. But to me, its just missing some parts of the formula, rather than the whole thing been useless.
Me too - but if I started this debate with a tippytoe attitude i would have recieved 3 responses - more than 95% of my play i will be taking EV into the equation - I did study statistics as part of my degree and postgrad - i believe i just push EV a little bit further than most when i am making some key decisions - if that makes any sense?
Another part of your post you mention mood....
Mood is a very important and integral part of poker/any sport - thankfully i have learned to control my emotions to a high standard at the poker table - this was only over time tho and vital to success at the table

You talk about seeing the bigger picture, and again I actually do think that can be limited by the maths mentality at times. But to be honest, you seem to go waaaaay beyond the bigger picture. man... you're outside the frame...... you're looking at the whole museum and the picture is just all muddled.

So, after all that what’s my point? Basically you play the way you play. You make money from the way you play, so not much of an issue really. You should probably tone it down a bit, but that’s up to you. But why try and convince people here that you're method is correct.
You say you were looking for a debate, but there is no poker forum in the world that you are going to find someone on your side of the argument – i.e. agreeing that raising UTG with 72o is a good play – even occasionally.
You act surprised about the +EV gang mentality, but that’s what the poker forum is for. They teach poker here - The only way you can "teach" poker is by teaching the proper way - the Mathematical way. So obviously pretty much everybody here is going to play that way.
There is a lot of people here that do make they're money from poker...and most others aspire to do so. Grinding out the dosh by playing correctly is the safest way to make money playing poker.
Then you come along and try and tell people they're doing it all wrong.
again i overplayed my general game theory to get responses...

I suppose what i was really aiming at it that there's more to poker than maths - especially live games - and that people who play a hand disregarding EV and not all donks/fish - they may just have a different view on the hand than most - that it in a nutshell - I just though this debate may open up peoples views a bit that's all m8...thanks again for your very intelligent post

Musician: 2 schools of thought here:-

The Poker Snob(s) - some of whom almost sneer at others play and can't seem to make a point or disagree without being condescending in some manner.
The Lunatic - who likes a gamble and thinks the snobs are a joke who take the game far too seriously.

The reality is of course that there are far more schools of thought than that but the 2 above tend to think only in those terms making them effectively as bad as each other. Those who fall in between or around these types are far more relaxed and accepting about these things probably due to experience.
Spot on and well said!! thanks! thankfully i am neither of the above!! (hard to believe eh??)

By the way one mans fun is another mans boredom. Some folks may enjoy using Pokertracker, analysing their game and so on. Just a thought.
true true - yes useful and may be fun for folks - was just pushing my argument...

Gholi: Unfortunately they dont make screen that big yet...

MrPillowTalk: All completely valid - the one point i'd make is that i do understand the importance of position - very much so - in the eg hands i found it irrivelant - it was nice to meet you also

Ianmc38 - I believe i warned you about having a go at him? didn't i ?? : )

Jimbling - true story - just a horrid succession of bad beats im afraid!!

...hector, gholi and 5star - thats just not nice or called for...


So to sum up - many thanks again for all your replies - just be nice to each other and respect each others styles of play - no matter how horrid/boring you find it!!

ianmc38

bops wrote:

Ianmc38 - I believe i warned you about having a go at him? didn't i ?? : )

I know! I should have listened. he seems like a right arrogant cúnt. We should give him our own perosnal opinion in public some time. That'll learn him.

bops

ps maybe i shudda just kept my big mouth shut? ; )

if anyone wants to kick my arse i'll be in the regency tomorrow night for the crapshoot - gl all

5starpool

ianmc38 wrote:

I know! I should have listened. he seems like a right arrogant cúnt. We should give him our own perosnal opinion in public some time. That'll learn him.

It's hard for me to look dignified at the best of times, never mind when I am readin the likes of this at work.

Comic Genius.

jimbling

bops wrote:

Thats the worst hand in poker ffs
Hence why I did it!! I got paid pff horribly in this hand - was not intentional to win here! - but i did the exact same move 2 orbits later with AA and got handsomely paid

okay... but really think about that one bops. What was the likelyhood that your 72 was actually going to get shown??? You must have done this 100 times before you hit and someone actually realised you WERE raising with 72o from utg.

Gholimoli

ianmc38 wrote:

I know! I should have listened. he seems like a right arrogant cúnt. We should give him our own perosnal opinion in public some time. That'll learn him.

who are you calling a cnut you batty boy.
i will kick the $$^^ out of you if i ever find out who you are and then make you "%"£%$£.
you chicky bollix you.
i challenge you to a HU game if your man enough to show your ugly face anywhere .
send me a pic before hand so i know what your ugly mug looks like.

brianmc

Is anybody else still wondering why this thread had a title of "I am a fish, can you help me?".

delanec8

jimbling wrote:

okay... but really think about that one bops. What was the likelyhood that your 72 was actually going to get shown??? You must have done this 100 times before you hit and someone actually realised you WERE raising with 72o from utg.

Add that to the fact that in live cash games in Ireland you are getting action with your big hands(AA here) regardless of what you have done for the whole night.

Tar.Aldarion

I'm floating in a cloud of lol, despite my location.

jimbling

delanec8 wrote:

Add that to the fact that in live cash games in Ireland you are getting action with your big hands(AA here) regardless of what you have done for the whole night.

lol.... ya, I hear those games are pretty loosy goosy no matter what your image is.

azzeretti

Gholimoli wrote:

who are you calling a cnut you batty boy.
i will kick the $$^^ out of you if i ever find out who you are and then make you "%"£%$£.
you chicky bollix you.
i challenge you to a HU game if your man enough to show your ugly face anywhere .
send me a pic before hand so i know what your ugly mug looks like.

I was just promting this site to a mate of mine who has just started playing poker and was asking me what live games are like.
I'd say he feels pretty comfortable about going to a game now.

Gholimoli

azzeretti wrote:

I was just promting this site to a mate of mine who has just started playing poker and was asking me what live games are like.
I'd say he feels pretty comfortable about going to a game now.

lol,
dont worry im not like this live,
Ian you fecktard look what you did...

5starpool

azzeretti wrote:

I was just promting this site to a mate of mine who has just started playing poker and was asking me what live games are like.
I'd say he feels pretty comfortable about going to a game now.

take off your 'This is a disgrace' hat, and put on your 'Oh I get it, they know each other and are just messing' hat.

It'd be a much better fit here in this thread.

azzeretti

5starpool wrote:

take off your 'This is a disgrace' hat, and put on your 'Oh I get it, they know each other and are just messing' hat.

It'd be a much better fit here in this thread.

I'm not sure I could have been any more sarcastic with that post.

Maybe sarcasm tags might be useful - Dev?

Gholimoli

folks ,
for all thoes who are confused ,i actually know Ianmc and we are only having a bit of craic cuz we are both bored.
i was joking about not knowing him (but i wasnt joking about him being ugly cuz he is) .he is fish when it comes to poker but he is trying to learn and he has always looked up to me when it comes to poker and i have tried to guide him like a teacher would.
he is a bit slow but hey we all have our disadvantages dont we and the important thing is that he tries.

phantom_lord

azzeretti wrote:

I'm not sure I could have been any more sarcastic with that post.

Maybe sarcasm tags might be useful - Dev?

I think his sarcasm detector overloaded earlier on in the thread.

opr

azzeretti wrote:

I'm not sure I could have been any more sarcastic with that post.

Maybe sarcasm tags might be useful - Dev?

Take a chill pill he was actually trying to help the situation by explaining to you what was going on . . . .

azzeretti

opr wrote:

Take a chill pill he was actually trying to help the situation by explaining to you what was going on . . . .

I give up......

brianmc

Gholimoli wrote:

folks ,
for all thoes who are confused ,i actually know Ianmc and we are only having a bit of craic cuz we are both bored.
i was joking about not knowing him (but i wasnt joking about him being ugly cuz he is) .he is fish when it comes to poker but he is trying to learn and he has always looked up to me when it comes to poker and i have tried to guide him like a teacher would.
he is a bit slow but hey we all have our disadvantages dont we and the important thing is that he tries.

It brings a tear to my eye to see the student become the teacher.

Or is that - the hunted become the hunter...

Gholimoli

opr

azzeretti wrote:

I give up......

lol Dam i thought i had those sarcasm tags turned on

patmac

I know this is probably the wrong place to post this but Bops if you leave Dublin now by train and drink plenty on the way down, you will land in Ballinasloe just in time to play the pub tourney and be in a state of inebreation similar to the other two guys that call my KK with 73o and fill a straight on the river.:rolleyes:

Gholimoli

brianmc wrote:

It brings a tear to my eye to see the student become the teacher.

Or is that - the hunted become the hunter...

Gholimoli

as you can see i have quit a few fans here on boards...:D

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

5starpool

42

brianmc

My sarcasmometer just melted.

Hectorjelly

we all learned something today. from now on im going to make sure I always see the big picture - cheers bops

MrPillowTalk

brianmc wrote:

It brings a tear to my eye to see the student become the teacher.

Or is that - the hunted become the hunter...

Gholimoli

How on earth did I miss that thread first time around? LMAO

Particualarly Hector and Mikes comments, judging by Ehsans spelling Mike was probably right that he cant read words more than four letters.............

Oh no he didnt

bops

jimbling wrote:

okay... but really think about that one bops. What was the likelyhood that your 72 was actually going to get shown??? You must have done this 100 times before you hit and someone actually realised you WERE raising with 72o from utg.

chances of me showing this are vvvv high!!!!

they all fold to my reraise - i show!!
get a caller - i'll bet the pot on the flop - they fold i show!!
if i re reraised along the way - if we are heads up i show and fold!!

probably 80% chance of me showing....

BTW it aint that easy to get paid in full on your big hands in live cash games - ye make it sound like the wild west - yeeehaw!!

Brian - excellent digging my man! - lens thread about gholimoli - LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL - that has cheered me up no end tyvm

Hector -
we all learned something today. from now on im going to make sure I always see the big picture - cheers bops

EXACTLY!! ...SIGH LOL ; )

(gl all it was fun while it lasted)

cardshark202

musician wrote:

2 schools of thought here:-

The Poker Snob(s) - some of whom almost sneer at others play and can't seem to make a point or disagree without being condescending in some manner.
The Lunatic - who likes a gamble and thinks the snobs are a joke who take the game far too seriously.

The reality is of course that there are far more schools of thought than that but the 2 above tend to think only in those terms making them effectively as bad as each other. Those who fall in between or around these types are far more relaxed and accepting about these things probably due to experience.

By the way one mans fun is another mans boredom. Some folks may enjoy using Pokertracker, analysing their game and so on. Just a thought.

I can't agree with that you are really stupid