I am a fish / donk - can you help me??

sixpac911

Although I agree that bops appears to be a very lucky maniac, I am actually wondering what his M is when he makes these moves and what Ms are in the hand before him and ahead of him. If the M situations are favourable his play may actually become profitable over time I would have thought? I mean re-raising with crap against desperate but tight players could make alot of money coming near the cut off point in a tourney. So Bops, can you elaborate on the tourney stage and M values of you and your opponents on some of these plays? I could not imagine this play working well after the cut off point in any MTT especially shorthanded tables. Pleas egive us the conditions.

5starpool

sixpac911 wrote:

Although I agree that bops appears to be a very lucky maniac, I am actually wondering what his M is when he makes these moves and what Ms are in the hand before him and ahead of him. If the M situations are favourable his play may actually become profitable over time I would have thought? I mean re-raising with crap against desperate but tight players could make alot of money coming near the cut off point in a tourney. So Bops, can you elaborate on the tourney stage and M values of you and your opponents on some of these plays? I could not imagine this play working well after the cut off point in any MTT especially shorthanded tables. Pleas egive us the conditions.

These are all cash game hands, not tourney hands so M has about as much to do with it as James Bond.

phantom_lord

sixpac911 wrote:

Although I agree that bops appears to be a very lucky maniac, I am actually wondering what his M is when he makes these moves and what Ms are in the hand before him and ahead of him. If the M situations are favourable his play may actually become profitable over time I would have thought? I mean re-raising with crap against desperate but tight players could make alot of money coming near the cut off point in a tourney. So Bops, can you elaborate on the tourney stage and M values of you and your opponents on some of these plays? I could not imagine this play working well after the cut off point in any MTT especially shorthanded tables. Pleas egive us the conditions.

These were all in a cash game.

califano

5starpool wrote:

These are all cash game hands, not tourney hands so M has about as much to do with it as James Bond.

lmao smack talk of a high order!.
Poor fella probably just finished his book and waded in with enthusiasm!. sixpacs comments reminded me of something Culchie would have said after swallowing his first book!

Gholimoli

sixpac911 wrote:

Although I agree that bops appears to be a very lucky maniac, I am actually wondering what his M is when he makes these moves and what Ms are in the hand before him and ahead of him. If the M situations are favourable his play may actually become profitable over time I would have thought? I mean re-raising with crap against desperate but tight players could make alot of money coming near the cut off point in a tourney. So Bops, can you elaborate on the tourney stage and M values of you and your opponents on some of these plays? I could not imagine this play working well after the cut off point in any MTT especially shorthanded tables. Pleas egive us the conditions.

will you shut up with your M ,Q,first in vigirioush talk and try and talk a bit more street wise.
these are cash hands you muppet:D

peeko

that was an epic read

El Stuntman

LOL, I didn't expect my literary review to have such an immediate effect

wd Sixpac, now go away and re-read the introduction!

MrPillowTalk

5starpool wrote:

These are all cash game hands, not tourney hands so M has about as much to do with it as James Bond.

and the award for sarky comment of the thread goes to .......

lol classic

sixpac911

Oh, sorry. I actually was concentrating on work and did not have time to read the thread properly I don't play cash so I will back out of this discussion and leave it to you professionals :-)

gregoire

Ill stick up for ya m8

I have played hundreds of stt's with bops and is one of the players i fear most.He is also a true gent at the tables,and never steals blinds from people who pay him compliments.

gl

gregior

ocallagh

gregoire wrote:

Ill stick up for ya m8

I have played hundreds of stt's with bops and is one of the players i fear most.He is also a true gent at the tables,and never steals blinds from people who pay him compliments.

gl

gregior

I cant even count the amount of blinds you have stolen from me

Samba

gregoire wrote:

Ill stick up for ya m8

I have played hundreds of stt's with bops and is one of the players i fear most.He is also a true gent at the tables,and never steals blinds from people who pay him compliments.

gl

gregior

LOL

TacT

bops wrote:

White Night: Are you a winning online player?
Yes overall - but recently (over the last 3 months) i have dropped 15k mainly by aggrressively playing premium hands on 5/10 10/20 and 20/40 cash tables...and getting sucked out by fish/donks!!

Online, my strenghts lie on STTs and MTTs mainly 200$ 9, 6, and HU games and the larger buy-in MTTs - I AM NOT A WINNING ONLINE CASH PLAYER!!

Over last 3 months live I have made 4.5k in small tourneys and 18k in cash games

How can you claim to have dropped 15K at the 5/10+ cash tables, say, "I AM NOT A WINNING ONLINE CASH PLAYER!!" Then go on to say you have made 18K in cash games. Smells like a nice big pile of codswollop if I do say so myself

oh, oh, I get it, you made 18K in LIVE cash games right? yes, of course you did, silly me!

Gholimoli

TacT wrote:

How can you claim to have dropped 15K at the 5/10+ cash tables, say, "I AM NOT A WINNING ONLINE CASH PLAYER!!" Then go on to say you have made 18K in cash games. Smells like a nice big pile of codswollop if I do say so myself

oh, oh, I get it, you made 18K in LIVE cash games right? yes, of course you did, silly me!

lol
no comment...

jbravado

sigh.

DeVore

Lol.... how did I miss this thread. Bookmarked

DeV.

bops

sixpack - strangely enough your point about "M" is very relivant - i'm not even going to start explaining why... - the bottom line is please ignore the other ignorant muppets - they just can't help themselves

gregior - tks m8 and i promise not to steal your blinds for a day!

tact - could it be possible that i am a better live cash player than an online one?? - live games are very different than online games imo...dunno why i bother

NO! actually you are right!! i confessed to loosing 15k online in 3 months to boost my ego... well done you - you clown

Solksjaer

Hey bop, im new enough to the boards although i play live quite a bit...im intrigued as to who you are,,got a photo? I agree with some of your points about poker and cash games, ie mixing it up , however you do seem to be riding on a wave of good fortune. Good luck to you on this but to keep an air of credibility about your reason for posting, I suggest you ignore the people you think are being rude . Like I say there is some merit in playing outside the box but if you snap back at people and in the same breath pretend you welcome criticism you lose that credibility and thus your original points become blurred.

You donkey! ( dont snap im joking)

Fish! (I really am joking)

Muppet (ahem ->just a little joke there)

Muppet on a Donkey with a fish in your mouth (now I'm sorry that was beyond a joke)

Marq

......
No. I won't.

cardshark202

Marq wrote:

......
No. I won't.

Please do. I think its needed.

accensi0n

Marq wrote:

......
No. I won't.

Marq, I miss your posts.

Ste05

cardshark202 wrote:

Please do. I think its needed.

Agreed, let it rip...

Hitman Actual

Marq wrote:

......
No. I won't.

Do it, do it, do it. At the risk of another weeks ban. I'd reply to bops with something sensible, but this thread won't really tolerate that sort of boring crap.

Lazare

sixpac911 wrote:

Although I agree that bops appears to be a very lucky maniac, I am actually wondering what his M is when he makes these moves and what Ms are in the hand before him and ahead of him. If the M situations are favourable his play may actually become profitable over time I would have thought? I mean re-raising with crap against desperate but tight players could make alot of money coming near the cut off point in a tourney. So Bops, can you elaborate on the tourney stage and M values of you and your opponents on some of these plays? I could not imagine this play working well after the cut off point in any MTT especially shorthanded tables. Pleas egive us the conditions.

Lads, I was sure I've read all the books, all the important ones anyway, what the fcuking hell is M?

ocallagh

Lazare wrote:

Lads, I was sure I've read all the books, all the important ones anyway, what the fcuking hell is M?

I could be wrong, but i think it's just a handy way of describing the size of your stack... eg an M of 5 means the player has 5 BBs. Harrington uses it in all his books which are all quite good AFAIR.

Lazare

ocallagh wrote:

I could be wrong, but i think it's just a handy way of describing the size of your stack... eg an M of 5 means the player has 5 BBs. Harrington uses it in all his books which are all quite good AFAIR.

Hiya Niall, I'm reading HOH1 at the moment, never seen it mentioned. Sixpac's posts are the first time I've seen it, in the quoted post above he seems to be referring to stack sizes alright, why not just say stack sizes?

ocallagh

Lazare wrote:

Hiya Niall, I'm reading HOH1 at the moment, never seen it mentioned. Sixpac's posts are the first time I've seen it, in the quoted post above he seems to be referring to stack sizes alright, why not just say stack sizes?

you will see it, in about 5 chapters time! http://www.pokerlistings.com/tournament-nolimit-holdem-harringtons-zone-system-5475

cooker3

Lazare wrote:

Hiya Niall, I'm reading HOH1 at the moment, never seen it mentioned. Sixpac's posts are the first time I've seen it, in the quoted post above he seems to be referring to stack sizes alright, why not just say stack sizes?

I finished Hoh1 tonight, it has not mentioned it, therefore I assume it is book 2,
I believe it is just cost of blinds and antes for 1 round and whatever that figure is divide it into total number of chips you have to give you the magic number.

Lazare

ocallagh wrote:

you will see it, in about 5 chapters time! http://www.pokerlistings.com/tournament-nolimit-holdem-harringtons-zone-system-5475

Ah, I see what it means, thanks for the link Niall.

Sixpac had me confused the last couple of days, what with all his M's and P's, not to mention all his "first in Liquorice" talk:D

Edit: Cooker, take a look at that link, it's HOH2 alright.

Ste05

Your M is the amount of rounds at the table you have according to your stack. The reason it's good for later in an MTT is because it takes into account running Ante's.

E.G. Blinds 100/200 + Ante of 25 - 9 Handed it costs you 525 Chips per round.

Therefore is we have a stack of 5250, we have an M of 10. But would have 26 BB's, it just shows how an adjustment to Ante's is Vital.

bops

Solksjaer: good point sir, but i cant help myself sometimes ...tbh i've tried to keep my replies fairly friendly - only a couple of them got my back up a tad too much.

a good few boardies know who i am - but after this post i dont really want to advertize my identity too much - where do you play live?

Marq: let it rip man - sure that's what it's all about!!

I know it's not really applicable to cash games, but the idea of M (stack / blinds ratio) does play a large part in my game - even at cash tables - the important point is that i was heavily stacked at the time of the eg hands and i had the involved players under pressure, whilst i was in the delightful position of being able to confortably afford the losses (if any) in the hands

Here's an interesting hand (imo) from last Thursday that demonstraits mixing it up, playing the player, M, and live reads...
I'll let you have a guess at the holdings - a complimentary pint for the winner!

Exact details fuzzy!!
Sat for EPT (freezeout stage)
Blinds 200/400 ante 50 - 9 seats

Player in early position: Stack - 17k (17m approx) - (UTG+1) rasies to 1400
Player is seen as playing tight :eek: and passive :eek: but does mix it up the odd time - he has pushed on a draw earlier, but has also pushed with the nuts (if thats of any use!)

...folded around to BB: 9k (9m approx) who make the call of the extra 1k.
He has played aggressively, been busy and has made some loose calls preflop - eg all in call with A8s

Flop: Ah 10h 2c
Pot: 3050

BB bets 800
I imediately raise it to 2700
BB thinks for short while and calls

Turn: 7d
Pot: 7450

BB checks quick
I think for a while, make a noticeable scan of his stack and check

River: Js

BB thinks for afew seconds and checks
I figure he has only 5.5 ish K left - I bet 4k (leaving me with about 9k and him roughly all in)

He thinks for a while - whilst stacking up 4k in chips (lots of little ones!)
He swoops them over the pot - but not in - looking for a read (I fuking hate that play - really pisses me off no end btw :rolleyes:
...anyway he thinks for a while still looking at me and makes a reluctant call.

...answers on a postcard...

Ste05

bops wrote:

I know it's not really applicable to cash games, but the idea of M (stack / blinds ratio) does play a large part in my game - even at cash tables - the important point is that i was heavily stacked at the time of the eg hands and i had the involved players under pressure, whilst i was in the delightful position of being able to confortably afford the losses (if any) in the hands

The concept of M has absolutely nothing to do with cash games. Adjusting to stack sizes in a cash game is one of the most basic concepts in cash game play.

Why don't you just buy in heavily stacked everytime you sit down?? Then you can play like this all the time and exploit this style all the time, or maybe you already do this. Surely, if you are properly bankrolled, then you should always be able to afford the losses.

bops

Ste05 wrote:

The concept of M has absolutely nothing to do with cash games. Adjusting to stack sizes in a cash game is one of the most basic concepts in cash game play.

I do realize that the concept of M, by definition, has nothing to do with cash games - i'm just using it to explain stack size vunerability & the lack of - i don't get too caught up in textbook defs

Ste05 wrote:

Why don't you just buy in heavily stacked everytime you sit down?? Then you can play like this all the time and exploit this style all the time, or maybe you already do this. Surely, if you are properly bankrolled, then you should always be able to afford the losses.

buying in to a 1/2 cash game heavily stacked - 500? 1k? 2k? x2 average? x4?
anyways I like to go to a cash game with 1200 in my pocket and buy-in/rebuy at 300 a go - just a personal preference - many reasons for doing so.

With reference to BR/Profit & Loss - I try and keep it simple - on a nightly basis - and adjust my game accordingly - This works for me!

Hitman Actual

M has feck all to do with that tournament hand you posted. Both players are relatively well-stacked, so it's practically a cash game question. And where are these revolutionary live reads that you speak of? As far as I can see, you raise it up with a pile of sh**e, suck out big time, and your general image causes the BB to put all his money in when behind. Or, you raise it up with a monster, your hand develops into a bigger monster, and your general image causes the BB to put all his money in when behind. Revolutionary. La-dee-fookin-da.

TacT

bops wrote:

tact - could it be possible that i am a better live cash player than an online one?? - live games are very different than online games imo...dunno why i bother

NO! actually you are right!! i confessed to loosing 15k online in 3 months to boost my ego... well done you - you clown

Did I hit a nerve? I'm sorry

Ste05

bops wrote:

I do realize that the concept of M, by definition, has nothing to do with cash games - i'm just using it to explain stack size vunerability & the lack of - i don't get too caught up in textbook defs

As I said above, adjusting to stack sizes is about as basic as it gets when playing in a cash game, and not only does the definition have nothing to do with cash games, the whole concept has nothing to do with cashgames.

As you know, the concept, inter alia, is about avoiding getting too short in a tournament whereby our stack becomes meaningless with regard to winning the whole thing, keeping our Fold Equity high so we can continue to make steals, etc., keep ourselves in with a shout of winning every single chip on the table.

In general, it applies to the stage of a tournament where the whole table is shallow, say 10 - 40 BB's. Not when there's one or 2 shorties sitting at a table where the average stack is +80 BB's. Which is about the nearest you'll come to it, and even then you're not picking on people with medium M's to try and rob the blinds and antes hoping to add a decent % to your stack, while avoiding very large and very small M's for robbing blinds.

E.g. if I have an M of 100 and my opponent has an M of 75, does it make any difference at all??

bops wrote:

buying in to a 1/2 cash game heavily stacked - 500? 1k? 2k? x2 average? x4?

You tell me, according to your posts, when you are heavily stacked, you have an edge, so I'm just wondering why you don't do it all the time??

bops wrote:

anyways I like to go to a cash game with 1200 in my pocket and buy-in/rebuy at 300 a go - just a personal preference - many reasons for doing so.

So are you giving up an edge by not buying in deep?? Or do you view money won as seperate money that you can gamble with. I'd say this is the case, and seeing as your obviously playing at a very high level, I'm sure there's no need to explain the short-comings of this mindset.