Five dead in Monaghan crash: who's to blame?

Mad Finn

Five young men wiped out in a horrific car crash in Monaghan in the early hours of Saturday morning. A community in grief. Who's to blame?

The priest at the funeral says it's those who work hard to keep up with the pace of modern life. See the sanctimonious twaddle below. It's not the parents' fault, he says. It's everybody else's. Too many iPods and mobile phones; not enough peer pressure to prevent people acting like eejits.

Is it the fault of the government for having unsafe, badly marked roads? Possibly to a degree, but I don't know if it was a factor in this case.

Is it the fault of publicans who serve young men alcohol in country areas knowing full well that the only way they can get home is by car? Possibly to a degree, but I have no way of knowing if that was a factor in this case.

One thing we can definitively say, assuming the reports about a head on collision are correct-and the state of the cars in the photographs would suggest they are, is that at least one of those cars was on the wrong side of the road.

Which one? The driver of that car bears a heavy responsibility.

Why was he on the wrong side of the road?

Was he overtaking? At that time of the morning? Did he take care to ensure nothing was coming the other way?

Or was it more sinister than that? Were both cars driving where they shouldn't have been? Was it a game of chicken?

Let's stop wringing our hands over 'accidents' that are nothing of the sort. One of those drivers (at least) was at serious fault. The families of the other dead men should be able to sue his estate for their loss.

Harsh? Yeah. Insensitive to bereaved families at their time of sorrow? Yeah.

But do we want to DO something about the apalling road carnage or just beat our breasts and say: "Ooh modern life is so hard on young people"








Priest asks young people to 'forgive us for neglecting you'
Alison Healy in Threemilehouse

Irish society is failing its young because people are too busy "making hay" in the Celtic Tiger economy to spend time with their children, mourners were told yesterday at the funeral of two of the young men who were killed in a head-on collision in Threemilehouse on Saturday morning.

Fr Martin O'Reilly, youth director with the Diocese of Clogher, told the packed congregation in St Mary's Church, Threemilehouse, that "we have been making hay for the last 20 years when our young people have been growing up. We have thrown iPods at them, mobile phones, colour televisions, DVDs, whatever you call them, and VCRs but we fail to throw ourselves at them. Forgive us for how we have neglected you," he said.


Fr O'Reilly was officiating at the funeral of 20-year-old cousins Gary McCormick and Ciarán Hagan from Threemilehouse. One hour earlier, their friend Brian O'Neill (19) was buried in the cemetery overlooking the small Monaghan village. This morning, another friend, Dermot Thornton (21), will be buried after funeral Mass in St Mary's Church. A fifth man, John McQuillan, died last night at Our Lady of Lourdes Hospital in Drogheda from injuries he sustained in the crash.

Threemilehouse came to a standstill yesterday. St Mary's Primary School, which had been attended by all four men, closed yesterday and remains closed today. The car park of the sole pub was packed with mourners' cars, and after the funeral local people offered tea to more than 1,000 mourners at the local sports complex.

Fr O'Reilly told mourners there had been "road accident after road accident" in recent months. Some people called for increased policing but this was not the only issue, he said. Protecting the dignity of human life was the solution and this was about collective responsibility.

People should be able to say to others, "you can't drive, you've had too many drinks", or "slow down, you are going too fast". He said we had lost the ability to do this because the young people in our community no longer knew us. He stressed he was not talking about the families of the crash victims, as their parents had done everything they could for their children and had loved and cared for them. Fr O'Reilly said we had a collective responsibility as adults to look after young people in our community.

"We have lost something very, very wholesome in Irish society," he said. Years ago, communities were full of parents who would act as parents to neighbours' children, reprimanding them where the need arose if their own parents were absent. In the 12 years since his ordination, he said he had buried "more of the generation that has come after me than the generation that came before me". If we could not feel the pain of families bereaved by a road crash in Kerry or Donegal, Belfast, Galway or Dublin, he said, "then we have lost the meaning of what death is really about".

lostexpectation

actually the priest did say the parents didn't involve themselves enough, that was his point.

obviously if there were speeding/racing it was their fault top of the list.

dahamsta

I just wish people would stop throwing the word "carnage" around, it's starting to sound like a Paisley-style "Ulster Says No" rant at this stage.

kippy

I dont think to discuss this topic without all funerals having taken place is a goo d idea. There are a lot of people effected by this particuliar accident and perhaps some time should pass before discussing the topic.

The question of blame is never an easy one to answer. There are obvious candidates but as I said without full facts being known its not fair to blame anyone at this stage.
May those 5 people rest in peace.

Kippy

bada_bing

here's my 2 cents on the issue:
While this is an appalling tragedy i feel that we need to change the media reporting of such 'accidents' like these. Personally i feel that this was no accident but more like reckless, dangerous driving. How likely is that 9 months later the toxicology results of the driver(s) will reveal that he was either well over the legal limit or under the influence of drugs. How are people ( especially young males ) going to see the immediate links between alcohol/drugs as the main cause of road 'accidents' at 3 am?? By the time these facts are reported, everyone will have forgotten the incident and will not see the correlation between the toxicology results and the incident itself. It's understandable that the media do not report these facts in the aftermath so as to avoid bringing further upset to those families involved but sadly i feel this is a factor in the regular continuation of such road carnages like this.

Wishbone Ash

lostexpectation wrote:

actually the priest did say the parents didn't involve themselves enough, that was his point.

He just didn't mean parents - he meant everyone including himself. He was referring to the general era of the celtic tiger and said something along the lines of;

"over the past generation, we've thrown everthing at young people - ipods, mobile phones, DVDs, VCRs, Playstations - but we haven't thrown ourselves at you".

I thought the homily exerpts I heard on radio were very thought provoking. He was also an excellent speaker ( as in the actually delivery of the words).

Heinrich

I have yet to see a barman twisting someone's arm to get him to buy drink!

Let's lay the blame where it really belongs and that is to the victims or culprits, depending on if they live or die!

Speeding, dangerous driving, drunken driving are offences...............

lostexpectation

bada_bing wrote:

here's my 2 cents on the issue:
While this is an appalling tragedy i feel that we need to change the media reporting of such 'accidents' like these. Personally i feel that this was no accident but more like reckless, dangerous driving. How likely is that 9 months later the toxicology results of the driver(s) will reveal that he was either well over the legal limit or under the influence of drugs. How are people ( especially young males ) going to see the immediate links between alcohol/drugs as the main cause of road 'accidents' at 3 am?? By the time these facts are reported, everyone will have forgotten the incident and will not see the correlation between the toxicology results and the incident itself. It's understandable that the media do not report these facts in the aftermath so as to avoid bringing further upset to those families involved but sadly i feel this is a factor in the regular continuation of such road carnages like this.

yes this so true and something that has been written about more and more, by the guy who goes to coronors court etc too, some of the headlines were gardai say chicken game might have been involved, but then if you say boyracers then modders will get pissed off, and if you say young men , then all young mens insurance raises even higher... if you say

when boyracers die in a crash they get 72 powermax girls

what happens?

loyatemu

it's Gay Byrne's fault.

Idbatterim

I was reading about this earlier and thinking about the subject. Whos fault is it? unquestionably the driver and those that got in the car with him. They can implement changes to the rules etc, but there is no way these lunatics are going to care, i mean drink driving is already illegeal, now they want to reduce the speed limit to 80 for learners or just passed learners for 2 years, they are already probably doing twice the speed limit! i saw the wreck in the paper and couldnt believe the destruction. Its what alot of young lads do in Ireland (especially outside Dublin), its like trying to change the Drink culture. Once no innocents are hurt, if they want to risk their lives and injure or kill themselves thats their business! it is not the governments or anyone elses fault, other than those involved. Typical looking for someone to blame here other than the ones really at fault!

Capt'n Midnight

bada_bing wrote:

How likely is that 9 months later the toxicology results of the driver(s) will reveal that he was either well over the legal limit or under the influence of drugs. How are people ( especially young males ) going to see the immediate links between alcohol/drugs as the main cause of road 'accidents' at 3 am?? By the time these facts are reported, everyone will have forgotten the incident and will not see the correlation between the toxicology results and the incident itself.

That's the problem with News - it only shows new stuff, how about the Media having a spot each week where they do the incidents in review and say what the cause was when it's apparant.

Really annoys me when all you get is breaking news and not the full story, but 400 times a year and how many times do you hear the full story if there isn't a court case like in the Bus crashes.

DerekP11

This crash and resulting deaths is very thought provoking. Blame is a funny word, but always relevent. To not play the blame game is to live in fantasy. Something is always the cause of something else. I don't know the full facts of what happened, so I won't comment on it in a way that suggests I do. However, there is no escaping the reality of the age profile (bar one) of the people involved in this crash.

Three things happened to me over the last few days.

1. I read on teletext that this accident took place and followed resulting news reports.

2. I attended Questions & Answers last night 23/10/06, and found out, that the 5th person had died in hospital. Martin Cullen offered his sympathies and then aimlessly spun his way through the debate. He is only part of the blame.

3. Today 24/10/06, I was over taken at speed, by a "supped up" banger, with L plates on a back road in the Naas area. The car contained 3 male occupants in school uniforms and, in my opinion, drove dangerously. My last experience with it, was watching a wheelspin just off the main road into Naas from the N7. Time was 16.55 hrs.

It made me think even more. Despite the desperate pleas of innocence from "boy racers", it is a very apparent problem, that is inevitably leading to deaths. In light of spiralling road deaths, what parent actually allows there young son/daughter to drive/own or be a passenger in a car that is deliberately fitted to run at speed? In these circumstances, parents are responsible.

I recently had an experience with a delivery driver from a local chinese take away. He was a youngish chap in a supped up peugeot. He drove down my road at stupid speeds and regularly screeched to a halt outside my house. I tackled him about it and the response was "huh.....right" and off he went with a wheel spin. He is a risk on the roads.

All this considered, we accept that all age profiles are involved in road deaths, but the statistics clearly state that the early 20s males are the prime movers and shakers. The other alarming statistic is the non-national driver. The infrastructural statistic suggests that fatal accidents are most prevelent on minor roads in rural areas. In my opinion, young drivers die behind the wheel, due to a growing affluence that permits them to own cars combined with poor licensing regulations and poor enforcement of the law in critical areas. I believe that we may be too late to change the attitude of todays over 18s, but if we introduce basic road safety lessons at primary school level and build it through to Secondary level, we will see results. Road safety/driving should be theory tested at leaving cert. level(compulsory) and your results linked to the awarding of a provisional license. Then strict provisos should be applied as the process moves towards the driving test.

While we have to overhaul the entire testing, licensing and road traffic law enforecement system, in the country, if we start the road safety message in our schools, we can yield results in the future. Many fatal accidents cannot be avoided and thats a reality of life, but many of our accidents in Ireland can be avoided, if the state owns up to its responsibility and devises a policy that educates from day one.

If a Government is happy to cash in on road tax, VRT and fuel excise duties, then it has an equal responsibility to provide all possible measures to ensure that driving standards are improved, roads are fit for the purpose and the law is enforced in a manner that promotes responsible driving as opposed to petty revenue collection streams. Government is meant to Govern. End of story.

Forester

Who is to blame? obviously the drivers but if we look a little deeper the only way the on going fatalities will decrease is, if there is proper Garda enforcement.

Not Gardai on the Stillorgan fual carraigeway criminilizing ordinary motorists who stray a meagre few K.P.H. over the too low speed limit but Gardai who actively chase the real law breakers

I despair at the failed idea of the revenue collecting cash cameras (speed cameras) that are to be rolled out. Unless people feel the law is going to be correctly enforced by Gardai on these back roads we may as well give up now

MrJoeSoap

DerekP11 wrote:

This crash and resulting deaths is very thought provoking. Blame is a funny word, but always relevent. To not play the blame game is to live in fantasy. Something is always the cause of something else. I don't know the full facts of what happened, so I won't comment on it in a way that suggests I do. However, there is no escaping the reality of the age profile (bar one) of the people involved in this crash.

Three things happened to me over the last few days.

1. I read on teletext that this accident took place and followed resulting news reports.

2. I attended Questions & Answers last night 23/10/06, and found out, that the 5th person had died in hospital. Martin Cullen offered his sympathies and then aimlessly spun his way through the debate. He is only part of the blame.

3. Today 24/10/06, I was over taken at speed, by a "supped up" banger, with L plates on a back road in the Naas area. The car contained 3 male occupants in school uniforms and, in my opinion, drove dangerously. My last experience with it, was watching a wheelspin just off the main road into Naas from the N7. Time was 16.55 hrs.

It made me think even more. Despite the desperate pleas of innocence from "boy racers", it is a very apparent problem, that is inevitably leading to deaths. In light of spiralling road deaths, what parent actually allows there young son/daughter to drive/own or be a passenger in a car that is deliberately fitted to run at speed? In these circumstances, parents are responsible.

I recently had an experience with a delivery driver from a local chinese take away. He was a youngish chap in a supped up peugeot. He drove down my road at stupid speeds and regularly screeched to a halt outside my house. I tackled him about it and the response was "huh.....right" and off he went with a wheel spin. He is a risk on the roads.

All this considered, we accept that all age profiles are involved in road deaths, but the statistics clearly state that the early 20s males are the prime movers and shakers. The other alarming statistic is the non-national driver. The infrastructural statistic suggests that fatal accidents are most prevelent on minor roads in rural areas. In my opinion, young drivers die behind the wheel, due to a growing affluence that permits them to own cars combined with poor licensing regulations and poor enforcement of the law in critical areas. I believe that we may be too late to change the attitude of todays over 18s, but if we introduce basic road safety lessons at primary school level and build it through to Secondary level, we will see results. Road safety/driving should be theory tested at leaving cert. level(compulsory) and your results linked to the awarding of a provisional license. Then strict provisos should be applied as the process moves towards the driving test.

While we have to overhaul the entire testing, licensing and road traffic law enforecement system, in the country, if we start the road safety message in our schools, we can yield results in the future. Many fatal accidents cannot be avoided and thats a reality of life, but many of our accidents in Ireland can be avoided, if the state owns up to its responsibility and devises a policy that educates from day one.

If a Government is happy to cash in on road tax, VRT and fuel excise duties, then it has an equal responsibility to provide all possible measures to ensure that driving standards are improved, roads are fit for the purpose and the law is enforced in a manner that promotes responsible driving as opposed to petty revenue collection streams. Government is meant to Govern. End of story.

Great post. I completely agree.

djmarkus

Well, Theres reports that this crash was a game of chicken that went horribly wrong.

MrJoeSoap

djmarkus wrote:

Well, Theres reports that this crash was a game of chicken that went horribly wrong.

Link? I did see this...

GARDAI say both cars involved in the head-on collision that claimed four lives in Co Monaghan yesterday were owned by Dermot Thornton, one of those who died.

Four years ago he was arrested for making dangerous turns in a “high-powered rally car” around a parked vehicle on Bettystown beach in Co Meath. He was fined for driving without reasonable consideration, failing to produce an insurance certificate and failing to display learner plates and was severely criticised by the judge.

Thornton, 21, was driving three companions in one of the cars involved in the crash at 2am at Kilnacloy on the Monaghan-Threemilehouse road. One of the passengers, John McQuillan, 27, was in a critical condition in Our Lady of Lourdes hospital in Drogheda, Co Louth, last night. The other two passengers, Gary McCormack and Brian O’Neill, who both died, were from the Cabra housing estate in the village of Threemilehouse.

The fourth man who died was Ciaran Hagan, from Ballagh in Threemilehouse, who was driving the second car. All five are understood to have been close friends. All, apart from McQuillan, were in their late teens or early twenties.

The accident occurred on a straight stretch of road that has been resurfaced by Monaghan county council in the past year.

Father Joe McCluskey, parish priest in Threemilehouse, had attended the crash scene. “It’s a small village of 150 people, so this has devastated the entire community,” he said.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2091-2415822,00.html

Kashkai

"Who's to blame?"

Bit of a no brainer - it was one or both of the drivers involved. I can't understand people who blame the parents, the cops, the government, the road or the tooth fairy for these crashes. When you get behind the wheel of a car, you are in charge of a lethal weapon, i.e. at least a tonne of moving metal. You take responsibility for the car and your aim should be to get from A to B without hitting anyone else. Unfortunately in this country, a lot of people abidicate their responsibilities to themselves and to others when it comes to driving. I'd bet anyone of the guys killed in the crash never once thought about how their families would feel if they were killed during their late night spin. Their attitude probably was "Ah sure, we're invincible", "I'm a great driver", "I've seen the Fast and the Furious a hundred times". Any gob****e who thinks nothing will ever happen to them will soon find out how wrong they are.

Now the bleeding hearts out there will say I'm insensitive but I've a wife and kids and I worry when they go on a cross country trip to visit the in laws in Mayo as I know our roads are full of assholes who take stupid risks and could wipe my family out in seconds. No amount of airbags will save you if you are hit by a car doing 130kph.

Solution
While we shouldn't start a witch hunt against all young drivers, I'd agree with the introduction of a learner's permit prior to doing the test. This permit could only be applied for once the learner has done a recognised training course with a school of motoring. For a driver who has passed his test, he/she should be put on a probationary period of say 3 years. They should also not be penalised with high insurance after they have gotten their test and should be put on the same footing as anyone else. During this time, if he/she incurred penalty points, they should be doubled, i.e. 2 for speeding becomes 4 points. This way, serial transgressors would soon be put off the roads and be forced to start the whole process again (with higher insurance premia)

Tom Dunne

Draconian measures are what's needed.

Ban learner drivers of a certain age from the roads after 10:00pm and before 6:00am. Of course this will have to be enforced consistently and decisively. If they are caught, come down heavy on them, no namby-pamby "ah sure we'll give you another chance" bull.

Penalties - is an 80 Euro fine really a deterrent? In this day and age it certainly is not. 1,000 Euro for every 10 Km/h over the speed limit or something outrageous like that.

Whatever is done, we have to ignore the bleeding hearts and the do-gooders and just for the love of God, get tough.

/rant

Joeface

Im not going to look at who is to blame cause that never solved anything.I do agree with some of whats said here.
before any thing will work ,sort out the Driving instructors , they all need to be registered and approved.The test centers need to be sorted also i.e. removing the back log

1.) All school Transition years should take driver Ed. similar to the USA.
2.) Provisional License should be extended to 3 years not 2. everybody should have there full license in this time period.there should be no second provisional
3.)20 driving lessons must be completed by a registered school of driving, before been allowed out on the road.Insurance companys should request proof before insuring a Provisional driver.

Im not going to say provisional drivers should have a full licensed driver with them because this wont work,Lots of ppl have jobs and you cant always have one beside it just wont work.
4.) All provisional Drivers should be Curfew ed. ie not allowed drive between 9.30pm and 6.30am.
this should be easy to enforce as the Gardai already have random check points.
5.)Limit the engine size for first time drivers to 1.4ltr and 100bhp max. this removes the modding.also must have a full license for 1 year before they can increase engine size. This is easy enforce insurance companies can /will have proof of when the license is issued and this will can refuse insurance on the larger engines untill the year has passed.

6.) Now to us how have been driving all our lives. Drink driving , No court case simple banned for 2 years and must redo all the provisional stuff again.and fined a 1000 euros. THE 2 YEARS MUST BE SERVED.Speeding I do believe the points system can solve this. I think it should be scaled as in 20km over the speed limit its 500euro fine and 2 points 40km over the speed and 1000euro and 6points any higher and BANNED FOR 2 years and back to a provisonal.
7.) Anyone who cause an accident while drink driving and if they survive , A percentage of the wages every year should be giving to the persons they hurt if they do hurt any one.

8.) The ppl who design these roads and Approve the resufacing methods should be held repsonsible for the poor states of the roads in ireland.These also cause accidents ...when u need grip the surface is crap and its never there when u need it most.

could think of more but then I would it be turning in to
IRON FIST RULE ,and i dont think that works either

D'Peoples Voice

Mad Finn wrote:

Five young men wiped out in a horrific car crash in Monaghan in the early hours of Saturday morning. A community in grief. Who's to blame?

The driver!
How do I know this, it's simple, if someone else was responsible, the gardai would arrest the person held responsible, and the court would convict them.
The gardai have not arrested anyone else, hence the driver by definition must be to blame!
Spend two minutes thinking about that!

Pigeon Reaper

Joeface wrote:

Im not going to look at who is to blame cause that never solved anything.I do agree with some of whats said here.
before any thing will work ,sort out the Driving instructors , they all need to be registered and approved.The test centers need to be sorted also i.e. removing the back log

1.) All school Transition years should take driver Ed. similar to the USA.
2.) Provisional License should be extended to 3 years not 2. everybody should have there full license in this time period.there should be no second provisional

We should abolish provisional licences. The provisional licence is a joke and we shouldn't even have one. Either you pass the test or you don't drive. This works in other countries where students learn to drive with instructors. This only works if there is no waiting list for tests.

3.)20 driving lessons must be completed by a registered school of driving, before been allowed out on the road.Insurance companys should request proof before insuring a Provisional driver.

Again drivers shouldn't be on the road without passing the test which incorporates compulsary basic training.

Im not going to say provisional drivers should have a full licensed driver with them because this wont work,Lots of ppl have jobs and you cant always have one beside it just wont work.
4.) All provisional Drivers should be Curfew ed. ie not allowed drive between 9.30pm and 6.30am.
this should be easy to enforce as the Gardai already have random check points.

This is already the law and should be enforced as other countries can enforce traffic laws. We hsould not pick and choose which laws to obey. If a driver is good enough to be on the road by themselves they should be able to prove it with the test. It's certainly not difficult to pass.

5.)Limit the engine size for first time drivers to 1.4ltr and 100bhp max. this removes the modding.also must have a full license for 1 year before they can increase engine size. This is easy enforce insurance companies can /will have proof of when the license is issued and this will can refuse insurance on the larger engines untill the year has passed.

Nice in theory but any modern car over 1 litre can still do 160kph. It may cut down on some acceleration but it will not affect speed. There is already a law like this for motorcyclists but it is widely ignored and impossible to enforce as it's based on power output of bikes. You cannot test this on the roadside. If people want limits put on inexperienced drivers speed limiters make more sense and are easier to check. Bear in mind that this will need to be enforced. Personally provisionally licenced drivers shouldn't be driving without a fully licenced driver.

6.) Now to us how have been driving all our lives. Drink driving , No court case simple banned for 2 years and must redo all the provisional stuff again.and fined a 1000 euros. THE 2 YEARS MUST BE SERVED.Speeding I do believe the points system can solve this. I think it should be scaled as in 20km over the speed limit its 500euro fine and 2 points 40km over the speed and 1000euro and 6points any higher and BANNED FOR 2 years and back to a provisonal.
7.) Anyone who cause an accident while drink driving and if they survive , A percentage of the wages every year should be giving to the persons they hurt if they do hurt any one.

If anyone is caught drink driving you loose your licence permantly. If you kill someone while under the influence you should be charged with manslaughter or murder as it is common knowledge that you can kill as a direct result from this action. If a person is permantly disabled they should be allowed to claim compensation from the guilty party.

8.) The ppl who design these roads and Approve the resufacing methods should be held repsonsible for the poor states of the roads in ireland.These also cause accidents ...when u need grip the surface is crap and its never there when u need it most.

The roads can never be perfect anywhere. Many items can change the road surface and a driver must adapt to the conditions. If changes are made to the roads severe bends not in character with the rest of the road should be removed however the rest is up to the driver. Again speed and driver error will cause most of the crashes which people blame on a bad surface(think how many people you see braking in the middle of a bend for example?)

We already have many traffic laws which are mostly ignored. A quick and easy way of changing alot of the irish driving practices is to enforce these laws.
PS I'm just making my own points using Joefaces previous points as a springboard.

djmarkus

MrJoeSoap wrote:

Link? I did see this...



http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2091-2415822,00.html

Eh, i live in monaghan so my sources are more word of mouth. but on that road it is nearly impossible to have such a bad collision without it being planned. and seemingly the young drivers around there are known for crazy stunts like a game of chicken with two cars.

Mad Finn

DerekP11 wrote:

we accept that all age profiles are involved in road deaths, but the statistics clearly state that the early 20s males are the prime movers and shakers. The other alarming statistic is the non-national driver. The infrastructural statistic suggests that fatal accidents are most prevelent on minor roads in rural areas.

What is the 'alarming statistic' regarding what you choose to call 'non nationals'? Let's assume you meant to say 'foreign nationals' by which you mean, people born and/or raised elsewhere.

Tell me which of the following names is most likely to be a 'non national':
John McQuillan, Dermot Thornton, Ciaran Hagan, Gary McCormick and Brian O'Neill. These are the five guys who were killed. They all sound pretty Irish to me.

If you have statistics on the ethnicity of people who have been killed or who have caused fatal accidents in Ireland I would love to see them. I think it might be instructive. In fact I think they might debunk some prejudices. Any links?

As for the crappy road infrastructure especially on minor rural roads. Well, that's true but nowhere in the world that I have ever seen is there a dual carriageway going to everybody's door. If you have to drive on crappy roads, then it is your duty to modify your driving accordingly. It is no defence to say, ah sure if I only had a Monza-like surface running through my neighbourhood, I'd be fine.

Take the example of Jersey: home to some of the wealthiest people in Europe. An offshore tax haven. Their general speed limit is 30mph, despite the fact that they have a preponderance of Rolls Royces, Jaguars and big ****-off Mercedes cars. Why? Because the roads are so narrow it is impossible to drive safely at any higher speed.

If you live up a boreen in Donegal or Monaghan and you want to use it as a race track well then tough ****. You can't. Lobby your local TD for a race track to be set up in your locale so that you can spend your money and drive your car around fast in comparative safety. But keep your speeding off the back roads.

shltter

D'Peoples Voice wrote:

The driver!
How do I know this, it's simple, if someone else was responsible, the gardai would arrest the person held responsible, and the court would convict them.
The gardai have not arrested anyone else, hence the driver by definition must be to blame!
Spend two minutes thinking about that!

:rolleyes: How profound does it have to be 2 minutes exactly

kippy

What is the 'alarming statistic' regarding what you choose to call 'non nationals'? Let's assume you meant to say 'foreign nationals' by which you mean, people born and/or raised elsewhere.

Tell me which of the following names is most likely to be a 'non national':
John McQuillan, Dermot Thornton, Ciaran Hagan, Gary McCormick and Brian O'Neill. These are the five guys who were killed. They all sound pretty Irish to me.

If you have statistics on the ethnicity of people who have been killed or who have caused fatal accidents in Ireland I would love to see them. I think it might be instructive. In fact I think they might debunk some prejudices. Any links?

As for the crappy road infrastructure especially on minor rural roads. Well, that's true but nowhere in the world that I have ever seen is there a dual carriageway going to everybody's door. If you have to drive on crappy roads, then it is your duty to modify your driving accordingly. It is no defence to say, ah sure if I only had a Monza-like surface running through my neighbourhood, I'd be fine.

Take the example of Jersey: home to some of the wealthiest people in Europe. An offshore tax haven. Their general speed limit is 30mph, despite the fact that they have a preponderance of Rolls Royces, Jaguars and big ****-off Mercedes cars. Why? Because the roads are so narrow it is impossible to drive safely at any higher speed.

If you live up a boreen in Donegal or Monaghan and you want to use it as a race track well then tough ****. You can't. Lobby your local TD for a race track to be set up in your locale so that you can spend your money and drive your car around fast in comparative safety. But keep your speeding off the back roads.

Well Said.

DerekP11

Mad Finn and your supporter Kippy.

My inclusion of the term "non-national" was always going to draw out politically correct narks like you.

Try here for the statistics and opinion. Ive more if you want them.

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1599324&issue_id=13928

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1599259&issue_id=13928

I find it very sad that you picked out this point as it highlights a total and absolute disrespect for the thread topic. It was also a very minute point in my post that actually focused on the possible causes of a recent tradegy.

My advice to both of you is;

1. Get a life.
2. Get a personality
3. Develop some morals
4. Lose the chip on the shoulder in relation to non-nationals, Foreign nationals etc etc(whatever the latest PC description is)

I only talk facts. The thread topic is a lot more serious than your "non-national watchout" agenda.

Mad Finn

DerekP11 wrote:

Mad Finn and your supporter Kippy.

My inclusion of the term "non-national" was always going to draw out politically correct narks like you.

Try here for the statistics and opinion. Ive more if you want them.

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1599324&issue_id=13928

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1599259&issue_id=13928

I find it very sad that you picked out this point as it highlights a total and absolute disrespect for the thread topic. It was also a very minute point in my post that actually focused on the possible causes of a recent tradegy.

My advice to both of you is;

1. Get a life.
2. Get a personality
3. Develop some morals
4. Lose the chip on the shoulder in relation to non-nationals, Foreign nationals etc etc(whatever the latest PC description is)

I only talk facts. The thread topic is a lot more serious than your "non-national watchout" agenda.

I merely asked you for evidence. You cited none in your previous post.

And the term 'non national' is stupid and meaningless. Everybody has some nationality.

From your own 'evidence'

The politician gave the Sunday Independent the figures which he has compiled himself because gardai do not record the nationality of drivers involved in crashes......

.....Mr Byrne said: "There are all sorts of rumours about old cars, no tax, no insurance and people being confused and driving on the wrong side of the roads, but all that doesn't add up to a hill of beans as it is only anecdotal."

So no evidence at all then.

And although I hate the term 'politically correct' I am proud to be so called by readers of Independent newspapers. I'd so hate to be thought of as 'one of us' by the likes of you.

kippy

A small part of Mad Finns post deals with "non nationals" which in my opinion are warrented. He picked out a small part of your post and asked you for clarification on it.The thread topic is a lot more serious that this "non-nationals watchout" agenda. The remainder of the post brings up some very valid points which I am a believer in. I also agree with a lot of points that you brought up.
Its not correct to make blatent generalisations about any section of the population without solid evidence. From what Mad Finn has said the about the two articles you have linked to, they are no official figures and dont do a per captita comparision of fatalaties, which in my opion makes these figures irrelevant.
But ultimately every driver is responsible for road safety.

My advice to both of you is;

1. Get a life.
2. Get a personality
3. Develop some morals
4. Lose the chip on the shoulder in relation to non-nationals, Foreign nationals etc etc(whatever the latest PC description is)

Point 1. Thank fully I already have one.
Point 2. Working on it.
Point 3. Trying to as we speak.
Point 4. No chips on any shoulders, just not happy about the way in which you have tarred this large group of people without solid statistics.



Kippy

DerekP11

Sorry Kippy, but you're just too PC for me. How sad we've become that a reference to a non- Irish person, even when buried in a post, elicits such immediate reaction.

Very trigger happy, but as usual the gun is pointing in the wrong direction.

Have a nice day.:D

parsi

All the rules and regs in the world won't stop 2 carloads of lads on a back-road at 3am in the morning.

It makes no odds if they had full or provisional licences. It makes no odds what the surface was. It makes no odd that there is a drink-driving limit.

At the time they were on an unsupervised road and God knows there's no way all the back roads can be patrolled all the time.

Cullen suggested an R plate - yeah right, like as if a sticker on your window suddenly slows you down....

Capt'n Midnight

parsi wrote:

Cullen suggested an R plate - yeah right, like as if a sticker on your window suddenly slows you down....

It does up north because they enforce driving laws.

Cullen suggested .... I'm sorry but people have been suggesting stuff since the 1979 amnesty. Until something is DONE and seen to be DONE to deter people they will do whatever they want.

parsi

I suppose up North they do tend to have higher police presence on back roads at night as a matter of course...

lostexpectation

so there was an article in times on the weekend describing the accident as a result of the groups of friends ferrying the mates back home from the pub, with one group gone and driver (non-drinking we hope) coming back down a narrow country road I presume and crashing into a group coming the other way no shenagans in particular.... ?

aphex™

lostexpectation wrote:

so there was an article in times on the weekend describing the accident as a result of the groups of friends ferrying the mates back home from the pub, with one group gone and driver (non-drinking we hope) coming back down a narrow country road I presume and crashing into a group coming the other way no shenagans in particular.... ?

The road didn't look narrow at all in pictures, on tv.

OTK

DerekP11 wrote:

My inclusion of the term "non-national" was always going to draw out politically correct narks like you.

Try here for the statistics and opinion. Ive more if you want them.

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1599324&issue_id=13928

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1599259&issue_id=13928

Batt O'Keeffe's widely reported claim that foreigners made up 25% of fatal accidents does not fit with the data from RTE, listing names of people killed http://www.rte.ie/news/features/roadsafety/list.html
Either he miscounted the numbers or there are loads of Lithanians here with name like John Joe Shanahan and Paddy O'Connell. There might have been a few extra foreigners killed at the start of the year but it was nowhere near 25%.

Urban myths persist better when they appeal to the prejudices of the audience. We've all heard the stories of free cars for asylum seekers etc etc to the point where any story that blames society's ills on foreigners should be treated with some suspicion. Now if you choose to perpetuate this kind of myth without doing any fact checking you can hardly complain when people point at you and laugh or suggest that your faith in the story may reveal more about you than the people you are trying to scapegoat.

Batt O'Keeffe would do better by looking closer to home for the causes of our road fatality rate. He could ask his own government why it is operating utterly ineffective driver education, testing and enforcement systems.

Of course it's much easier and gets more votes to just say 'I blame the foreigners'.

Johnny Jukebox

Licencing *cars* in the same way guns are licenced might work. However, this is not tractable in our society today. So, these type of fatalities are the cost for the way we use cars today.

Live with it.

DerekP11

OTK wrote:

Batt O'Keeffe's widely reported claim that foreigners made up 25% of fatal accidents does not fit with the data from RTE, listing names of people killed http://www.rte.ie/news/features/roadsafety/list.html
Either he miscounted the numbers or there are loads of Lithanians here with name like John Joe Shanahan and Paddy O'Connell. There might have been a few extra foreigners killed at the start of the year but it was nowhere near 25%.

Urban myths persist better when they appeal to the prejudices of the audience. We've all heard the stories of free cars for asylum seekers etc etc to the point where any story that blames society's ills on foreigners should be treated with some suspicion. Now if you choose to perpetuate this kind of myth without doing any fact checking you can hardly complain when people point at you and laugh or suggest that your faith in the story may reveal more about you than the people you are trying to scapegoat.

Batt O'Keeffe would do better by looking closer to home for the causes of our road fatality rate. He could ask his own government why it is operating utterly ineffective driver education, testing and enforcement systems.

Of course it's much easier and gets more votes to just say 'I blame the foreigners'.

And who exactly are you?

Victor

DerekP11 wrote:

1. Get a life.

Behave!

DerekP11

I am behaving.

My original post was treated to an exercise in "lets pick out any non-pc reference and run with it".

The sad part of this process is that many helpful and constructive points I made in that post, have gone by the way side in a flurry of self-indulgent nonsense.

SeanW

I believe that the primary responsibility lies with individuals. Simple as that. No use in blaming the bad roads, because everyone knows that they are there. Or the government because everyone knows they don't care about anything except getting reelected and serving their developer friends. I think there are a lot of people who either haven't been trained properly or drive irresponsiby.

I personally am in the "high risk" category, male, early/mid twenties, 2nd provisional. But I've always been a cautious person of temperate habits and this has carried through to my driving. So I do feel safe on the roads.

For me, staying safe on the roads means doing a few simple things:

1. Don't go out on your own until you've had at least 10 lessons from a GOOD PROFESSIONAL instructor. It makes all the difference.
2. Follow the rules of the road and allow adequate time for your journey.
3. Never drink and drive. I've been a passenger in a car driven by drunk people a couple of times and its scary. And stupid. When you're drunk, you can't control a car properly. Full Stop.
4. If there's anything that should make you uncomfortable, e.g. a child who might cross stupidly, bad roads, blind bends, inclement weather, late night, or you're going more than 10 km/h over the speed limit SLOW THE FUK DOWN! It's not worth saving the extra minute or two if you risk hitting something or someone.
5. Ideally, if it's practical for the individual to do so, one should be off the roads after 10PM especially at weekends. That's when all the drunks will be out and seems to be when most accidents happen.

Individuals who don't do the above will continue to cause accidents. As has been pointed out, the driver education, testing and enforcement systems essentially do not function. The government isn't doing it's job so its up to drivers to be observant, cautious and defensive.

nlgbbbblth

Mad Finn wrote:

Five young men wiped out in a horrific car crash in Monaghan in the early hours of Saturday morning. A community in grief. Who's to blame?

The driver or drivers.

The media reporting of car accidents is a disgrace.
If they had the balls to report the facts instead of pussyfooting around with intelligence-insulting euphemisms then maybe more lives would be saved.

All road accident reports should state

1) Estimated speed the car(s) were travelling at.
2) Whether or not seatbelts were worn
3) Blood-alcohol levels reports for all people involved
4) Likely reason for crash

i.e. instead of reporting
'A man was killed when his car hit a wall at 2.30am'

they should say
'A man was killed when the car he was travelling in at 110 kph hit a wall. He had consumed approximately 8 pints of beer.'

Obviously in many cases the above information may not be available for some weeks. It should be reported regardless of the time delay.

In the case in question there are unsubstantiated reports of a game of chicken.

Generally speaking if someone gets into a car and recklessly and deliberately drives it on the wrong side of the road without any regard for whichever innocent party may be coming around the corner - then the world is better off without them if they happen to get killed in the process.

chuckberry

Forester wrote:

Who is to blame? obviously the drivers but if we look a little deeper the only way the on going fatalities will decrease is, if there is proper Garda enforcement.

Not Gardai on the Stillorgan fual carraigeway criminilizing ordinary motorists who stray a meagre few K.P.H. over the too low speed limit but Gardai who actively chase the real law breakers

I despair at the failed idea of the revenue collecting cash cameras (speed cameras) that are to be rolled out. Unless people feel the law is going to be correctly enforced by Gardai on these back roads we may as well give up now

You cynical person you!

WHy should you expect to see the Gardai actually enfoce the traffic laws in places where it makes sense too?

The only place you ever see the Gardai in action is where they can convict and criminilise ordinary decent drivers who may have strayed a few kph on safe roads over the speed limit.

Perish the thought that they be pro-activley involved in reducing road carnage, but hey don't worry, when the new Greed Cameras are installed we can all drive safely safe in the knowledge that the Gov who don't give &uck will be even more quids in from now on!

AMC Opinions

Parents fault??? Obviously you have never been in any tough situation! These boys were well capable of making their own decisions so the parents cannot be to blame-do you not think that they were and are still going through enough than to also put the blame on their shoulders!!! Sadly it was a terrible accident, did alcohol play a part...Yes most definately, but if these were men or even women the same scrutinising would not be happening!!! Not one person can say they dont know at least one person who has ever gotten into a car over the 1drink limit! Nobody has the right to sit on here and pass judgement - jez every1 involved suffered enough!!!

Mena

AMC Opinions wrote: »

- jez every1 involved suffered enough!!!

Why re-open a three year old wound then

AMC Opinions

Idbatterim wrote: »

I was reading about this earlier and thinking about the subject. Whos fault is it? unquestionably the driver and those that got in the car with him. They can implement changes to the rules etc, but there is no way these lunatics are going to care, i mean drink driving is already illegeal, now they want to reduce the speed limit to 80 for learners or just passed learners for 2 years, they are already probably doing twice the speed limit! i saw the wreck in the paper and couldnt believe the destruction. Its what alot of young lads do in Ireland (especially outside Dublin), its like trying to change the Drink culture. Once no innocents are hurt, if they want to risk their lives and injure or kill themselves thats their business! it is not the governments or anyone elses fault, other than those involved. Typical looking for someone to blame here other than the ones really at fault!

How exactly is it the passengers fault?? They were all BEST friends and trusted one another-the journey was to take 5mins max, how were the passengers to know how it would end!!!

AMC Opinions

U live in monaghan but that doesnt mean u have the facts! Take a drive on the road and see if you still agree with your "theories"!!!!

Amtmann

When I saw this thread I thought this was a current event. The thread is three years old. Best leave it be...

D'Peoples Voice

DerekP11 wrote: »

The other alarming statistic is the non-national driver.

To be fair Derek, most of them in those statistics are just foreign nationals that racists claim are non-nationals,
it must be acknowledged that only a small percentage of immigrants arrive here with no legal documentation/identity etc.
Let us not tar everyone with the same brush:rolleyes:

HydeRoad

Er, Mr. AMC 'Opinions' has just three posts to his name, all three of them in this redundant old thread, which he has just reopened. It's a bit like going into an empty pub and shouting at the wall, three years after everyone else has switched out the lights and gone home...

And he sounds really angry too...

Cookie_Monster

HydeRoad wrote: »

And he sounds really angry too...

just sounds like an idiot tbh

SeanW

Could a mod please put this thread out of its misery?