A flaw with God.

Zillah

pH wrote:

...... and ?

What has predetermined outcomes got to do with free will?

Uh, generally its considered that the two are mutually exclusive...

pH

Zillah wrote:

Uh, generally its considered that the two are mutually exclusive...

Generally?

Are you saying that you reject absolutely the Compatibilist argument? On what grounds?

Scofflaw

Zillah wrote:

If nuclear decay is random, then it is outside his power, right? Which leads to a paradox; is God powerful enough to remove something from his own infinate power?

I'm still not sure why God should not be able to generate randomness, or how it is that a random number generator that he has created somehow has to be "outside his power" to operate. All that is necessary is that he not enforce the result through his will - and if that is impossible for him, then there can be no such thing as free will in any case.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Zombrex

pH wrote:

Generally?

Are you saying that you reject absolutely the Compatibilist argument? On what grounds?

Well there is an argument to be made that compatibilism is not really free will, since it proposes that free will is actually determined by what has gone before.

I suppose it depends on how one defines "free will"

Zombrex

Scofflaw wrote:

I'm still not sure why God should not be able to generate randomness, or how it is that a random number generator that he has created somehow has to be "outside his power" to operate. All that is necessary is that he not enforce the result through his will - and if that is impossible for him, then there can be no such thing as free will in any case.

Because to generate randomness God has to generate something that He isn't actually generating. The randomness comes from somewhere else. You then fall into a paradox.

I think the problem is that you are viewing the event as we would, God creates A, which is then left alone and it generates B.

But remember there is no time, because God exists outside of space time. God doesn't create just A, He also creates B at exactly the same instant. In fact everything God does or will do is all done in a time-free singlarity point.

To make B random He would have to create B with properties He is not aware of. Thats the paradox, can God create something that He doesn't know how it will be created.

Scofflaw

Wicknight wrote:

Because to generate randomness God has to generate something that He isn't actually generating. The randomness comes from somewhere else. You then fall into a paradox.

I think the problem is that you are viewing the event as we would, God creates A, which is then left alone and it generates B.

But remember there is no time, because God exists outside of space time. God doesn't create just A, He also creates B at exactly the same instant. In fact everything God does or will do is all done in a time-free singlarity point.

To make B random He would have to create B with properties He is not aware of. Thats the paradox, can God create something that He doesn't know how it will be created.

Why so? After all, all God needs to do is create a perfectly weighted and edged dice, and roll it. The fact that he sees the outcome at the same time as the result is not important, and he's fully aware of all the properties of the dice.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Scofflaw

Fallen Seraph wrote:

It's amusing to reflect on the fact that this is a forum of atheists having a theology debate.

Mmm. Theology is such fun, though - entirely unconstrained by fact.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Zombrex

Scofflaw wrote:

Why so? After all, all God needs to do is create a perfectly weighted and edged dice, and roll it. The fact that he sees the outcome at the same time as the result is not important, and he's fully aware of all the properties of the dice.

cordially,
Scofflaw

But its not just the dice God makes, is the ground the dice is rolled upon, along witht eh physical laws of nature that decide how the dice will react.

In essence God invented randomness itself, in that he creates the conditions that allow randomness to form, and as such has ultimate control over it.

Scofflaw

Wicknight wrote:

But its not just the dice God makes, is the ground the dice is rolled upon, along witht eh physical laws of nature that decide how the dice will react.

In essence God invented randomness itself, in that he creates the conditions that allow randomness to form, and as such has ultimate control over it.

Sure. But why does that stop him setting up a random mechanism? Your argument only applies if you assume randomness is actually just the result of hidden mechanistic outcomes.

I can't see why God can't make the decay of an atom random. If He wants, he can hand-decay the atom, or he can leave it to go itself, randomly. He can see the outcome in any case.

cordially,
Scofflaw

robindch

> Theology is such fun, though - entirely unconstrained by fact.

And uncomplicated by logic. Anything you want can be true. Just by believing it!

Zombrex

Scofflaw wrote:

Sure. But why does that stop him setting up a random mechanism? Your argument only applies if you assume randomness is actually just the result of hidden mechanistic outcomes.

I can't see why God can't make the decay of an atom random. If He wants, he can hand-decay the atom, or he can leave it to go itself, randomly. He can see the outcome in any case.

cordially,
Scofflaw

No but you are thinking of it within linear time, in that God creates something at point A, and that thing just runs its course external to God to point B where the random event happenes, and continues on to point C.

But God makes point B and C at the same singular instant as he makes point A. He makes the entire space time "object" as one, in one singluar instant. The point where the random outcome happens, B, is not external to the time line that God makes initally.

The time line itself is created by God, so during its creation some how the outcome of B is decided. The paradox is that while creating A, B and C can God create B without actually knowing what he is creating.

Say B can be 1 or 2. When God creates the time line A, B, C, can the actual value of B that God creates be decided by an external influence (ie randomness) from His creation? Can God not know what B actually is when He creates A, B and C?

Zombrex

robindch wrote:

> Theology is such fun, though - entirely unconstrained by fact.

And uncomplicated by logic. Anything you want can be true. Just by believing it!

Amen to that

I mean I've been discussing what God can and cannot do with Scofflaw for a few posts now, mostly for fun since we are both atheists/agnoists, but it does strike you how undefined and unthought out the whole "God" concept actually is. I mean for Scofflaw's position to be true, or for my position to be true, all you have to do is slightly alter the definition of what God is, or reality. If God can be kinda anything you want then treating God as a serious concept within scientific thought, becomes nonsense.

But of course I would never say that to a theist

aidan24326

For humans to have 'freewill', all we need is the illusion of freewill. Whether everything is predetermined doesn't matter once we believe and 'feel' in our minds that we have freewill in our actions. If we don't know all the rules of determinism (we don't) then the system manifests itself in an (at least partly) random way as far our consciousness is concerned.

A problem would only arise if we knew all the rules. But could it make any sense whatsoever to have beings (like us) who understood the system enough to be able to predict their own behaviour? This has fairly obvious paradoxes. A conscious entity like us humans could not function without freewill or at least the illusion thereof. I don't know exactly what I'll be doing exactly 3 hours from now. Maybe the master of the universe knows, but I sure don't, therefore to all intents and purposes I have freewill.