80kmph Provisional rule - will you abide by it?

\m/_(>_<)_\m/

Commander Vimes wrote:

weren't you the one being sarcastic at someone for saying people are wrong to associate young with provisional?

well come on like how do you reply to something like this
"that there seems to be a subconscious equation of "young" with "provisional"
i means this person was being serious.... "subconscious" its a little more than "subconscious"
i sure one wouldn't have to look too far to see a huge, overwhelming, undeniable, indisputable connection between young drivers and provisional drivers.
and come on like one doesn't have to be the sharpest tool in the box to understand why....

i thought you had a little more cop on that that.

well if you don't... my last comment about not knowing any 25yo on a provisional was to highlight the fact that the connection between young drivers and provisional is undeniable.

now before we all go off on the "i know a 50yo on a provisional" or "i know a 25yo on a full licence", i am talking about the majority not the minority.

ambro25

Young, old, full or provisional license... it makes no odds. At the end of the day, we're talking about experience and you can only acquire that through travelled miles, but...

...learning to drive, to my mind, is exactly like learning anything else: you got to apply yourself, be dilligent and not pick up any bad habits or miss a class early on. Experience has to be developed from a sound base - if there is no base to begin with, or it's unsound, all the experience acquired could be severely flawed in one aspect or another, to the detriment of other drivers.

Considering the current state of affairs, one has to realise that important reforms are need, and that they have to start at some definite point in time - and because at any one point in time there are *young, old, full or provisional licensees* of course some people will feel belittled/unfairly treated by having to comply with some of these new rules.

For what it's worth (not much, but..)

I learned to drive with 15 1-hour lessons (mandatory, more if deemed required by instructor - so ya better listen good and learn) the year they introduced provisional licenses in France (1988, if my memory's reliable), and at the end of that was deemed by my instructor to be fit to drive accompanied until my full test (18th birthday earliest, 2 years later).

I would never have dreamt of driving a car without my designated accompanying driver, with penalty for being caught not accompanied (or accompanied by wrong full-license holder): driving test put back a year from your 18th birthday, second offense = 5 years.

Speed limit was 90kph max whilst accompanied and during first year after full test, mandatory sticker to display during both provisional and first year of driving on full test, with penalty for speeding harsher on young license than 'standard': automatic 3 points & 6 months ban, iinstead of 2 points and maybe a ban, depending on extent of speeding.

None of the above killed me, made anyone think less of me, and as a matter of fact the 90kph rule actually taught me to drive better, because (i) it gave me more time to read the road and (ii) taught me to anticipate better my own actions.

AFAIK, young licenses in France are currently prevented by Law from buying and driving anything beyond 1,4L until they have driven one year on a full license (never mind a provisional). AFAIK again, insurances are prevented by Law from insuring them on anything bigger than 1,4L.

I don't see a problem at all with 80kph for provisionals/"first-graders". It works elsewhere, what's so special about Irish drivers that it wouldn't work here?

ambro25

From the horse's mouth, translated on the go:

L’apprentissage anticipé de la conduite permet à un adolescent de 16 ans ou plus d’acquérir une solide expérience de la route. En effet, l’élève doit parcourir 3 000 km minimum avant de pouvoir se présenter à l’épreuve pratique du permis. L’accompagnement d’un élève novice doit se faire par un conducteur d’au moins 28 ans, titulaire du permis B depuis au moins 3 ans et n’ayant commis aucune faute grave durant les 24 derniers mois.
L’accompagnateur, professionnel ou non, est responsable des maladresses de son élève. En cas d’infraction, le moniteur sera pénalisé, et l’élève également (on pourra par exemple lui interdire de passer le permis pendant une période de 3 ans).

Provisional license available from age 16 (NDT: unlike Ireland you must be trained professionally to get it, and it's the professional *as opposed to the driving test inspector* who declares you fit for driving accompanied)
Must drive at least 3,000 kms before attempting full license test (NDT: only when you turn 18, so you got to drive 3k in 2 years)
Accompanying drivers must be at least 28, have had a full license for 3 years, with no pointable offense for last 2 years, is responsible for all offenses of his tutee, will be penalised for these as will the tutee (e.g. barred from passing full test for up to 3 years).

Avant de prendre la route, il faut penser à emporter le livret d’apprentissage, ainsi que le document d’extension de garantie de votre assurance. Rappelons qu’un élève en conduite accompagnée n’est habilité à prendre le volant que sur le territoire national.

Must be carrying the provisional booklet and insurance extension (NDT: provisional can't be insured him/herself, must be named on accompanying driver's insurance) and can't drive overseas.

Tout élève en conduite accompagnée doit obligatoirement apposer le sigle "conduite accompagnée" sur la voiture durant toute la durée de son apprentissage. Et les jeunes conducteurs sont tenus d’apposer le sigle A à l’arrière de leur véhicule pendant 2 ans.

Any provisional driver must display sign on car for as long as he is provisional. Young drivers (NDT: they mean "having just passed full test") must display the 'A' sign (NDT: the L sign in IE) at the back of their car for 2 years.

Ils doivent également respecter des limites de vitesse particulières :
- 110 km/h au lieu de 130 km/h, sur autoroute
- 100 km/h sur les routes limitées à 110 km/h
- 80 km/h sur les routes limitées à 90 km/h.
Pour les autres limitations de vitesse, l’élève conducteur ou le jeune permis suivra les règles générales.

(NDT: these apply to provisionals just like those having just passed their full test)
Speed limits as follows: 110 i/of 130 on Mways, 100 i/of 110 on double-carriage ways, 80 i/of 90 on single-carriage ways

Depuis le 1er mars 2004, les jeunes conducteurs ne bénéficient que de 6 points pendant 3 ans. Pour les jeunes permis passés par la conduite accompagnée, cette durée est ramenée à 2 ans.

Since 01/03/2004, young drivers (having just passed full, etc.) only have 6 deductible points for 3 years (NDT: points in France are deduced from a total, not added like in IE or UK, total is 12 when you have a full, 'not young' license). If you have used the provisional system, it's for 2 years instead of 3.

Autre avantage relatif à la conduite accompagnée, un rabais de 50% sur la surprime d’assurance "jeune conducteur" et une suppression complète de cette dernière la deuxième année si le conducteur n’a été responsable d’aucun accident.

If you have used the provisional system, you get a 50% discount on the young driver premium when you get your full license and a 100% discount in the second year of you full license if you haven't had an accident.

Lemming

\m/_(>_<)_\m/ wrote:

well come on like how do you reply to something like this
"that there seems to be a subconscious equation of "young" with "provisional"
i means this person was being serious.... "subconscious" its a little more than "subconscious"

Yes. You're right. It's a bit more than subconscious. It's called large brush. tar. paint. Otherwise known as a stereotype.

When I made that remark initially, I also added a comment stating that I would be very interested to see the statistics on the number of young, male, provisional licence holders vs. young, male, FULL licence holders causing these accidents.

Personally, I know quite a few in the second category and I hestitate whenever I get into a car with most of them. I know very few in the first category that are reckless. Of course, it could be argued that the guys I know were like that anyway. But the point is that focussing the new, laughably absurd, "suggestions" at provisional holders isn't going to solve the problem because the problem isn't provisional holders per-se. It's much larger than that. Much, much larger. It's like the whole thing in the US when they banned parking a car outside an airport terminal because there could be a bomb in it, yet you could carry a bomb into a terminal anyway ... it. Makes. No. Sense. Just like your assertions because they are brain-dead, mantra-of-the-moron stuff. Lowest common denominator real-politik designed to give a pound of flesh rather than actually _do_ anything constructive.

i sure one wouldn't have to look too far to see a huge, overwhelming, undeniable, indisputable connection between young drivers and provisional drivers.

Eh heh ... yes. There is a large demographic of young drivers who are also provisional drivers. There is also a fairly large demoraphic of young drivers who are not provisional drivers. There are also a large number of more mature full license holders who can't drive safely and/or cause serious accidents. So what's your point here exactly?

and come on like one doesn't have to be the sharpest tool in the box to understand why....

i thought you had a little more cop on that that.

I do. You evidently don't, if you can't see the complete fallacy in the suggestions that are being proposed by the world's only surviving brain-donor who happens to work for the NTR PR dept.

well if you don't... my last comment about not knowing any 25yo on a provisional was to highlight the fact that the connection between young drivers and provisional is undeniable.

As is the fact that there is a connection between young drivers and full licence holders which is also undeniable. Pick a better argument.

now before we all go off on the "i know a 50yo on a provisional" or "i know a 25yo on a full licence", i am talking about the majority not the minority.

Doesn't matter. Your argument is bankrupt.

Lemming

ambro25 wrote:

Any provisional driver must display sign on car for as long as he is provisional. Young drivers (NDT: they mean "having just passed full test") must display the 'A' sign (NDT: the L sign in IE) at the back of their car for 2 years.

I'm curious ambro, what is considered "young" for this legislation and what makes you automatically safer once you've passed that mark by 1 second?

ambro25

Si le jeune conducteur comme une ou plusieurs infractions entraînant un retrait de 3 points ou plus, il devra obligatoirement effectuer un stage de sensibilisation à la sécurité routière dans un délai maximum de 4 mois. Grâce à l’attestation remise en fin de stage, le stagiaire pourra se faire rembourser son amende et obtenir 3 ou 4 points supplémentaires (sans que son capital puisse dépasser 6 points).

Having just obtained full license -

If you commit 1 or more offenses causing the loss of 3 points or more (out of 6) you must undergo a course for sensibilisation to road safety within 4 months (NDT: these last a while, you're not looking at one-o-them 1-day jobs) . If you pass the course, you'll get your points back.

En cas de récidive d’une infraction pendant la période probatoire, le jeune permis devra suivre le stage, mais il ne gagnera aucun point.
En cas de non-suivi de cette procédure, des poursuites seront engagées contre le fautif, et une suspension du permis de conduire pourra être requise (jusqu’à 3 ans).

If you get caught again, same as above, but you don't get your points back. If you don't take the course, proceedings will be issued and driving license ban may be requested (by State Attorney) for up to 3 years.

Si le jeune conducteur perd la globalité de son capital en une ou plusieurs fois, son permis sera automatiquement invalidé. Il lui sera alors impossible de regagner des points, même en suivant le stage, et il lui sera formellement interdit de conduire pour une durée de 6 mois.

If you lose all 6 points, you driving license is automatically revoked, no points may be earned 'back', even through a course, and you'll be strictly banned for 6 months (it means you can't attempt your tests again for 6 months - read on)

Au terme de cette "punition", le conducteur pourra repasser les épreuves pratique et théorique du permis, mais seulement après avoir passé des examens psychotechniques et médicaux.

After this punition, the driver may again attempt the theory and actual driving tests (yes that means what it says: your license was revoked = you never had one = you must do the lot again), but only after undergoing psycho + medical tests.

Oh, and btw - they're not kidding, they don't f*ck about, and they do enforce all of that.

... just thought a little 'how it's done elsewhere' perspective was warranted in this thread, feel free to ignore.

Sam Vimes

\m/_(>_<)_\m/ wrote:

well come on like how do you reply to something like this
"that there seems to be a subconscious equation of "young" with "provisional"
i means this person was being serious.... "subconscious" its a little more than "subconscious"
i sure one wouldn't have to look too far to see a huge, overwhelming, undeniable, indisputable connection between young drivers and provisional drivers.
and come on like one doesn't have to be the sharpest tool in the box to understand why....

i thought you had a little more cop on that that.

well if you don't... my last comment about not knowing any 25yo on a provisional was to highlight the fact that the connection between young drivers and provisional is undeniable.

now before we all go off on the "i know a 50yo on a provisional" or "i know a 25yo on a full licence", i am talking about the majority not the minority.

any posts i've read of yours in the last few days have been sarcastic and insulting. do you talk to people like that in real life or is it just in the anonymity of the net? if you do regularly talk to people like that i'd be very surprised if you were mr. popular.

i take it you were being sarcastic again when you said you don't know anyone under 25 on a provisional. lemming was simply saying that provisional does not necessarily mean young. everyone knows that a lot of provisional drivers are young. there's no need to be sarcastic at someone who points out that not all are

ambro25

Lemming wrote:

I'm curious ambro, what is considered "young" for this legislation and what makes you automatically safer once you've passed that mark by 1 second?

"young" is defined in my post - it means "having just passed your full license"

i.e. whether you're 18 or 78

Lemming

ambro25 wrote:

"young" is defined in my post - it means "having just passed your full license"

i.e. whether you're 18 or 78

That's fair enough ambro.

But the use of the word kind of illustrates my point when people mention young drivers they equate with learner/provisional more often than note.

ambro25

The FR Legislator's meaning is that a 'young' driver is a driver who hasn't been driving for long. I'm not saying that, there's ample FR case law to support my contention.

It just so happen that, statistics oblige, in pretty much every other country you care to mention, of course most 'young' drivers (so legally defined ) are going to be in a 'youthful' class of age.

Let's not kid ourselves here: maturity is also factored in, just obliquely so.

Far from me the opinion that all youthful drivers are immature and that such harsh rules have been designed to drum some sense into them (;)), but you rarely see a 40 year old (drunk or otherwise) playing chicken with another oncoming car... The fact of the matter is, we're all human, laws are designed for the average, and the average says that an 18 year old is much more impressionable, aspiring and likely to want to speed and do 'cool tricks to impress the chicks' than a 78 year old.

That you (the thread reader), or any such 18 year old whom you know is nothing of the sort is a very positive and crediting thing indeed, contributes to both yours and my safety on the road, and a step towards the highly-improbable day when such harsh rules will not even need to be contemplated anymore (we were all 18 too, once! ).

Lemming

ambro25 wrote:

The FR Legislator's meaning is that a 'young' driver is a driver who hasn't been driving for long. I'm not saying that, there's ample FR case law to support my contention.

It just so happen that, statistics oblige, in pretty much every other country you care to mention, of course most 'young' drivers (so legally defined ) are going to be in a 'youthful' class of age.

Let's not kid ourselves here.

I don't deny that there is a large demographic of provisional driver who are quite young indeed (under 25 for sake of argument). My gripe is that in proposing these new "measures", Irish authorities are targetting the wrong people, or at the very least targetting in a very half-hearted and futile manner that will only cause extreme aggrevation to road users.

I've asked my question twice, so third time lucky .... I would be interested to see the statistics on the number of young, male, provisional licence holders causing serious accidents as opposed to the number of young, male, full license holders. I also draw emphasis the word "causing" as opposed to being "involved" in an accident.

So ultimately, the authorities could well be targetting thte wrong group of people (ie. the easy scape-goat) with useless restrictions that will cause nothing but misery for the sake of some person trying to justify their job position and appear to be doing something.

\m/_(>_<)_\m/

\m/_(>_<)_\m/ wrote:

i thought you had a little more cop on that that.

Lemming wrote:

I do. You evidently don't,

i wasn't talking to you:rolleyes:
the give away might be i quoted the person i was talking to. :rolleyes:

i have given up trying to converse with you.
and besides, i would never say that about you....:D

Lemming

\m/_(>_<)_\m/ wrote:

i wasn't talking to you:rolleyes:
the give away might be i quoted the person i was talking to. :rolleyes:

i have given up trying to converse with you.
and besides, i would never say that about you....:D

Not doing too well in trying not to converse with me then are you?

\m/_(>_<)_\m/

Commander Vimes wrote:

i take it you were being sarcastic again when you said you don't know anyone under 25 on a provisional.

watch out everybody, the penny is dropping.



edit: careful squiggle!!!

Lemming

edit: time to follow the advice of my sig. I can't be @rsed.

ambro25

Lemming wrote:

I don't deny that there is a large demographic of provisional driver who are quite young indeed (under 25 for sake of argument). My gripe is that in proposing these new "measures", Irish authorities are targetting the wrong people, or at the very least targetting in a very half-hearted and futile manner that will only cause extreme aggrevation to road users.

(I haven't seen the actual text of the measures, so feel free to correct).

Well, to my mind, so long as any such measures are targeted at license holders who are deemed not to have sufficient experience, provably by the period of time elapsed since they obtained a provisional or full license, then the measures are fair.

And I say 'or full license' because, naturally,

(i) someone may on their Xth provisional and have 10 years driving exprience and 100,000s of miles under their belt, which in my eyes does constitute valid and relevant experience - but that's not to say that person is not somehow afflicted by bad habits/errors of judgment which, for 10 years, have been a cause of danger to other road users and causing such a person to repeatedly fail a full test; and

(ii) someone may have had a first provisional for a year or even mere months and subsequently passed their full driving test, having nowhere near enough experience (certainly not the experience referred to immediately above), but having demonstrated that the basis on which they will base this forthcoming experience is sound and that they will not be a cause of potential danger to other road users by their lack of basic proficiency/skills.

Sounds fair enough to me, no?

Lemming

True ambro. Or alternatively, the authorities could actually start enforcing existing traffic law in Ireland. Not to mention pointing out that any new legislation that gets drafted is going to be unenforced along with the rest of it anyway as currently is the case. Rather than forcing the gardai to police a single group of people whilst ignoring everyone else, why not enforce the existing laws so that everybody is covered. Sounds a better idea no?

Driver education/obligation to get some level of recognised tuition wouldn't go astray either.

Sam Vimes

\m/_(>_<)_\m/ wrote:

watch out everybody, the penny is dropping.

sorry now I'm getting a pain in my head talking to ye. its like replying to posts a 2 year old would write... your not a member of the gardai are ya?

post reported for general ignorance. four things, \m/_(>_<)_\m/:

1. you will at some point have to realise that you're not always the smartest person in the room

2. if your posts over the last few days are anything to go by i'd say its actually quite a rare occurence

3. even if you are the smartest person in the room, that does not make it ok to treat everyone else as if they are retarded and its your job to tell them

4. if you continue to speak to people like that, you will eventually be the smartest person in every room you go into because no one will want to be in a room with you

Seth Brundle

reported post recieved and noted.
Ive warned you before Squiggle. Your ban will come if you continue!