Most fundamentalist version of Christianity

robindch

> I see far more individual Cristians givng money to causes that help the poor
> overall, be they RC, Alliance, Baptist, evangelical free, etc. than I see
> secularists, muslims, etc.

That's hardly surprising, since you work (I believe, correct me if I'm wrong) for a christian organization. I'm not sure of the value of the religious economy in Canada or here in Ireland, but in the USA, it's reckoned to be between sixty and ninety BILLION dollars per year -- that's around twice the military budget of China. Based upon a short trawl though Charity Navigator's reasonably reliable statistics for how religious organizations spend their cash, I would imagine that around ten percent of the overall figure might be going to helping the poor with the aim of propagating or sustaining the religion, and ten percent of that (one percent overall, say roughly €500 million) goes to helping the poor without the aim of propagating or sustaining the religion. I'm happy to be corrected on any of the above estimates if somebody can produce some good, solid economic stats.

For the sake of comparison, The secular Bill Gates Foundation gave around €1,000 million to worthy projects in 2005 (see here). While in Muslim states, the payment of Zakat (alms tax) is one of the five Pillars of Islam and is an obligatory religious contribution which varies around 2.5% of income and which amounts to so much that many states have government departments allocated to spending it (the Saudi one is here).

BrianCalgary

That is a wonderful website on the Charity Navigators. In Canada every charity has to fill out a T3010 form stating the organisations goals, revenue and expenses. We have a certain target to hit on our expenses side that match with our stated goals or we lose our status.

The government has gotten serious as there have apparently been outfits that spend 70-90% on administration. I think 15% is the max that should be spent on admin and fundraising. If you are doing a good job, people will contribute.

It's a complaint I have with the North American church, we have so much yet we give so little. We have those at our church that complain if they don't get two vacations in the warmer climes every year, such hardship I guess, but try squeezing a nickle out of them to help someone who is heading south to help the less fortunate?

In having said that though I trust that there are many many Christians who contribute loads yet keep it secret as Christ commanded. Rick Warren (The Purpose Driven Life) as an example contributes 90% of his income to ministry. I also trust that many other wealthy Christians are doing their bit adequately as well. We will all have to answer God for what we did with what He gave us.

Tim Robbins

BrianCalgary wrote:

That is a wonderful website on the Charity Navigators. In Canada every charity has to fill out a T3010 form stating the organisations goals, revenue and expenses. We have a certain target to hit on our expenses side that match with our stated goals or we lose our status.

The government has gotten serious as there have apparently been outfits that spend 70-90% on administration. I think 15% is the max that should be spent on admin and fundraising. If you are doing a good job, people will contribute.

It's a complaint I have with the North American church, we have so much yet we give so little. We have those at our church that complain if they don't get two vacations in the warmer climes every year, such hardship I guess, but try squeezing a nickle out of them to help someone who is heading south to help the less fortunate?

In having said that though I trust that there are many many Christians who contribute loads yet keep it secret as Christ commanded. Rick Warren (The Purpose Driven Life) as an example contributes 90% of his income to ministry. I also trust that many other wealthy Christians are doing their bit adequately as well. We will all have to answer God for what we did with what He gave us.

Is it charity if someone is collecting money to spread Scientology / Islam / Hinduism?
Or do you think it is only charity if the money goes to spreading Christianity?
What about the different versions of Christianity? Do you draw the line at the mormons or the Catholics for spreading their version instead of yours?
Just curious.
Cheers

BrianCalgary

Tim Robbins wrote:

Is it charity if someone is collecting money to spread Scientology / Islam / Hinduism?

Yep

Tim Robbins wrote:

Or do you think it is only charity if the money goes to spreading Christianity?

Nope

Tim Robbins wrote:

What about the different versions of Christianity? Do you draw the line at the mormons or the Catholics for spreading their version instead of yours?
Just curious.
Cheers

Nope. (Mormoms are not Christian.)

And to confirm Robins comment, I do work for a Christian Evangelical organization that has charitable status.

Tim Robbins

BrianCalgary wrote:

(Mormoms are not Christian.)

According to this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon,
"Mormons are not Protestants and do not consider themselves part of any larger branch of Christianity, but do consider themselves Christians".

So what's the disagreement, you don't accept their version of Christianity and they don't accept yours?
Or is Wikipedia just lieing again:rolleyes:

robindch

> wealth has to be created and this is done best through the free-market.

The *regulated* free-market. Unregulated free-markets produce kleptocracies like Nigeria and Russia.

> In having said that though I trust that there are many many Christians who
> contribute loads yet keep it secret as Christ commanded. Rick Warren (The
> Purpose Driven Life) as an example contributes 90% of his income to ministry.

Are there any links which back up this claim? All I can find is this extremely supportive article on CNN which says that Warren's Saddleback Church has a turnover of $30 million and that he's involved with (controls?) another $39 million dollar organization too. More info would be useful!

BrianCalgary

Tim Robbins wrote:

According to this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon,
"Mormons are not Protestants and do not consider themselves part of any larger branch of Christianity, but do consider themselves Christians".

So what's the disagreement, you don't accept their version of Christianity and they don't accept yours?
Or is Wikipedia just lieing again:rolleyes:

Mormons do consider themselves Christian. But they are not. They do not accept Jesus Christ as God incarnate. Since they do not know who Christ is, they can not possibly be worshipping Him, but a facsimile of Him.

I live in a city absolutely full of Mormons, I know quite a few, and they are not Christian.

The wikipedia article looks alright at first glance. Since you mention it, none of my college friends can cite wikipedia as a source and none of my teacher friends accept it as a citation on any research papers.

BrianCalgary

robindch wrote:

> wealth has to be created and this is done best through the free-market.

The *regulated* free-market. Unregulated free-markets produce kleptocracies like Nigeria and Russia.!

We had a lively discussion one night as to what system og government would God approve. I was on the right wing side and a very good friend was on the socialist side. Both of us devout Christians.

robindch wrote:

[> In having said that though I trust that there are many many Christians who
> contribute loads yet keep it secret as Christ commanded. Rick Warren (The
> Purpose Driven Life) as an example contributes 90% of his income to ministry.

Are there any links which back up this claim? All I can find is this extremely supportive article on CNN which says that Warren's Saddleback Church has a turnover of $30 million and that he's involved with (controls?) another $39 million dollar organization too. More info would be useful!

Willow Creek is a church in the Chicago area that hosts a leadership conference every year. it is beamed by satellite across North America. I have attended a few. this past year my wife went and Rick Warren as one of the speakers revealed it in his talk.

irish_bob

We had a lively discussion one night as to what system og government would God approve. I was on the right wing side and a very good friend was on the socialist side. Both of us devout Christians

while some christians would claim that jesus would be on the right wing side
those are neo christians or as i like to call them fox news christians
those who belive that donald trump getting a tax hike is just as cruel as betsy a working mother in the projects having to work 3 jobs to make ends meet

if you are someone who belived in telling the truth and i mean the truth about jesus , then you will know that jesus was clearly of the left politically
jesus preached all the time about the rich giving what they didnt need to the poor
he invited the wrath of the rich pharisees for theese beliefs
in case im not being frank enough , jesus was a socilist
that is not to say that capitalists are wrong and socilist are right
i am talking within the context of the topic you raised
and i am telling you that jesus based on his teachings was a socilists
of course if your a neo christian or fox news christian , you might belive that jesus were he alive today would approove of wal-mart
this was actually a headline on fox news one night , i kid you not

Tim Robbins

BrianCalgary wrote:

Mormons do consider themselves Christian. But they are not. They do not accept Jesus Christ as God incarnate. Since they do not know who Christ is, they can not possibly be worshipping Him, but a facsimile of Him.
I live in a city absolutely full of Mormons, I know quite a few, and they are not Christian.
The wikipedia article looks alright at first glance. Since you mention it, none of my college friends can cite wikipedia as a source and none of my teacher friends accept it as a citation on any research papers.

Ok, surely the Oxford Dictionary is accepted by your college friends.
Here's what is says for Christian:
"noun a person who has received Christian baptism or is a believer in Christianity"
Christianity:
"the religion based on the person and teachings of Jesus Christ."
Mormon:
" a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, a religion founded in the US in 1830 by Joseph Smith Jr."

I think according to that Mormon's are Christians and you are just adding on your own subjective caveats because you do not accept it.

Can your opinion be citated in a college paper? BTW you should include in the Charter that just because you consider yourself Christian doesn't mean you are as you have implied in that post above.

BrianCalgary

Tim Robbins wrote:

Ok, surely the Oxford Dictionary is accepted by your college friends.
Here's what is says for Christian:
"noun a person who has received Christian baptism or is a believer in Christianity"
Christianity:
"the religion based on the person and teachings of Jesus Christ.".

Right.

Tim Robbins wrote:

Mormon:
" a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, a religion founded in the US in 1830 by Joseph Smith Jr."..

Right again. You're on a roll.:)

Tim Robbins wrote:

I think according to that Mormon's are Christians and you are just adding on your own subjective caveats because you do not accept it..

Whoops. Mormons do not follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. they follow the teachings of the Book of Mormon. Jesus taught that He is God. Mormons do not accept that, so they are therefore by definition, not Christian.

Tim Robbins wrote:

Can your opinion be citated in a college paper?.

1)Which opinion?
2) Why does it need a college paper?

Tim Robbins wrote:

BTW you should include in the Charter that just because you consider yourself Christian doesn't mean you are as you have implied in that post above.

Why should that be in the charter? This board is here to allow people to discuss Christianity and issues from a Christian perspective. You have done a great job of supplying us with the definition of a Christian quite nicely. Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses do not fit that description.

Tim Robbins

BrianCalgary wrote:

Why should that be in the charter? This board is here to allow people to discuss Christianity and issues from a Christian perspective. You have done a great job of supplying us with the definition of a Christian quite nicely. Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses do not fit that description.

From www.mormon.org

http://www.mormon.org/question/faq/category/answer/0,9777,1601-1-55-16,00.html

Question:
Are you Christians?

Answer:

"We are Christians in a very real sense and that is coming to be more and more widely recognized. Once upon a time people everywhere said we are not Christians. They have come to recognize that we are, and that we have a very vital and dynamic religion based on the teachings of Jesus Christ."

"We, of course, accept Jesus Christ as our Leader, our King, our Savior...the dominant figure in the history of the world, the only perfect Man who ever walked the earth, the living Son of the living God. He is our Savior and our Redeemer through whose atoning sacrifice has come the opportunity of eternal life."

"Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints pray and worship in the name of Jesus Christ. He is the center of our faith and the head of our Church. The Book of Mormon is Another Testament of Jesus Christ and witnesses of His divinity, His life, and His Atonement."

Also on the same website:

http://www.mormon.org/question/faq/category/answer/0,9777,1601-1-56-16,00.html

Question:
Is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints a Christian church?

Answer:

"There are many who say that Latter-day Saints believe in a 'different Jesus' than do other Christians and that we are therefore not 'Christian.' . . . We believe in the Jesus of the New Testament, and we believe what the New Testament teaches about Him."

Sounds like the Christians according to the Oxford dictionary but not according to you.