Misplaced "courtesy" on the roads

BrianD3

Drivers who try to be courteous but do it at the wrong time or make a pigs ear of it piss me off. I see it every day. Eg I am waiting to come out of a T-junction and someone turning right into the road I'm coming out of decides to wave me on. Now if they're driving a large vehcile this is probably necessary as they can't go in before I come out. But with a normal car I feel it makes life more difficult and is offputting. I have also seen crashes where someone waved another driver out of a side road and the driver who was let out promptly collides with another road user who wa not privvy to the "courteous" arrangement between the other two

Then there are the extremely annoying drivers who slam on the brakes to let someone out of a sideroad even though the person would have gotten out no problem anyway in another 10 seconds.

Today I saw someone let a van out of parking spot. The van drove 50 yards down the road and then needlessly double parked holding up and inconveniencing the person who had just let him out. I rarely let anyone go ahead of me these days because of things like this. Even if they don't double park they might be a dawdler who will hog the road in front of you and hold you up yet won't faciliate you passing them. I find that certain makes of cars (Accents, Almeras and Avensises) are far worse for dawdling than others (BMWs, Alfas) So if I do let someone out in front they will usually be driving one of the latter.

Then there's the practice of jumping into the overtaking lane on an M-way to let other drivers merge onto te M-way. I think this is bad practice. Firstly you could impede someone in the overtaking lane, Secondly, merging drivers will expect drivers to move over every time and will not make the effort to merge properly. The third one is if someone moves into the overtaking lane to facilitate mergers and promptly gets undertaken by the same mergers. in other words the people he's just let merge don't facilitate him getting back into the driving lane. Maybe the mergers didn't want him to move over in the first place and are irritated that he did. If I am merging I'd prefer drivers not to move over as I am perfectly capable of merging without their help. It can also be off putting if you are planning your merge and tracking cars in your mirrors and they suddenly jump into another lane, can cause confusion and doubt.

Diddy Kong

What really p*sses me off is the way you let another car out/into the lane (in the case of merging) or pull in to let them pass and there is bloody thanks. A few years ago, you would at least get the flash of the hazzards or a wave.

I too have stopped letting in most cars merge infront of me, a little gratitude goes a long way

Wishbone Ash

BrianD3 wrote:

merging drivers will expect drivers to move over every time and will not make the effort to merge properly.

You seem to assume that all motorway merging drivers are in cars. Try merging in an articulated truck. It is much more difficult to adjust one's speed. Trucks are legally limited to a maximum of 80kph. If the motorway traffic is relatively light and travelling in excess of 80kph, how would you propose we merge a 16.75 metre vehicle if all drivers refuse to move over?

Stark

dbfarrell wrote:

What really p*sses me off is the way you let another car out/into the lane (in the case of merging) or pull in to let them pass and there is bloody thanks. A few years ago, you would at least get the flash of the hazzards or a wave.

I too have stopped letting in most cars merge infront of me, a little gratitude goes a long way

I'm not sure if many drivers actually know about the hazards thing. Also, some cars have the hazard lights button in very awkward places And if you're a taxi, your hazards are to indicate you're pulling in, no left indicator for you sir (Hazard warning lights are great, you can park anywhere if you've your hazards on ).

seamus

The merging one wouldn't be so much of an issue if the unspoken rules were being followed. Perhaps we'll see an improvement on the M50 when it's up to three lanes.

The main problem is people attempting to join the motorway at 60-80km/h, when most traffic is doing 100-120km/h. This mainly only occured at night on the M50 obviously. A driver in the driving lane had two choices - slow down to the merging traffic's speed and join them, or safely move out and continue on at their pace (overtaking the merging traffic as he does so).

A second problem then you get is the "I was here first, if you want to merge, you'll have to go behind me" people. These guys stay in the driving lane, travelling at 80km/h, and because you're being limited by the speed of the other vehicles on the slip road, you're going the same speed. Instead of lining himself up in zipper formation, which would facilitate the most effective merging, he just keeps driving 2m from the vehicle in front of him, requiring me to brake, slowing down the traffic behind me, and ultimately slowing down the traffic into which we are merging.

I'm not sure if many drivers actually know about the hazards thing. Also, some cars have the hazard lights button in very awkward places And if you're a taxi, your hazards are to indicate you're pulling in, no left indicator for you sir (Hazard warning lights are great, you can park anywhere if you've your hazards on ).

Yeah, my hazard is right in the middle of the dash. I have to reach to get to it. I hit it one day on the motorway when slowing down realy suddenly and my girlfriend had never heard of the convention before. That's the problem with unspoken conventions - people can get confused.

Guy:Incognito

I have come accross an increasing number of people stopping on roundabouts to let me out.:eek: the mind boggles.

Stark

As in stopping while already on the roundabout? Was there a recent influx of immigrants from 1980s France that I didn't know about? I notice people stopping on the right when they have right of way alright, but I reckon they're just timid due to some drivers not slowing down at all when they come to roundabouts.

ballooba

Stekelly wrote:

I have come accross an increasing number of people stopping on roundabouts to let me out.:eek: the mind boggles.

There is a roundabout I pass every day, it's at the junction of a major road and two housing estates. Between Stillorgan and Blackrock btw.

The traffic on the main road is pretty much constant so if there is a slow moving vehicle trying to get out of the hosuing estate I will usually slow down a bit and flash the lights to give them a chance to get out.

ballooba

Actually I see what you mean. Stopping on an actual roundabout as opposed to before it. Now that I have yet to see.

leeroybrown

Stark wrote:

As in stopping while already on the roundabout? Was there a recent influx of immigrants from 1980s France that I didn't know about? I notice people stopping on the right when they have right of way alright, but I reckon they're just timid due to some drivers not slowing down at all when they come to roundabouts.

Occasionally this can be useful. The estate I live in is located on a busy roundabout that feeds a main route so the traffic all builds up off one exit. Occasionally during the peak rush hour I have required some courtesy from other drivers to avoid waiting ten minutes to get onto the roundabout. That's ten minutes at the head of the queue. That said this is a rare enough situation.

With respect to the merging issue, I generally pull into the overtaking lane prior merge points if I see a lot of traffic merging because I invariably find that their merge speed is lower than my speed. When I don't do it I find myself stuck in slower moving traffic which then pulls out in front of me and hogs the overtaking lane. Theres nothing wrong with it if you change lanes safely without impeeding another driver. I wouldn't even describe it as something I do out of courtesy.

I cycle to work fairly often and every few months I get overtaken by a driver who then immediately decides to brake to let an approaching car turn right across them. I could understand if I was approaching behind them in traffic but having just been overtaken I would expect them to remember I'm there before deciding to make me use emergency braking.

Drax

BrianD3 wrote:

Then there's the practice of jumping into the overtaking lane on an M-way to let other drivers merge onto the M-way. I think this is bad practice. Firstly you could impede someone in the overtaking lane.

Whether or not you think it is bad practise or not there are certain situations in which it makes more sense to move into the overtaking lane. For example on a quiet motorway you are doing 120+ in the left lane - you see a car coming down the on-ramp. I would say it is advsable to move to the right, so that you overtake. However on a busy road such as the M1 at peak times, it woud make more sense to slow to a speed that will allow the merging vehicle to join in front of you. But of course most people dont seem to like other people getting ahead of them. And thats where the problem is. People squeezing in between 2 cars just to make more progress than the merger.

kikel

What really annoys me is people merging to quickly. If people used the full space to merge. they could adjust there speed accordingly. The way i see it is people are more willing to let people merge on motorways closer to the end rather than when people merge at the first opportunity..

PS love the spell check built into boards!!!!

Edit: a spelling mistake

BrianD3

Wishbone Ash wrote:

You seem to assume that all motorway merging drivers are in cars. Try merging in an articulated truck. It is much more difficult to adjust one's speed. Trucks are legally limited to a maximum of 80kph. If the motorway traffic is relatively light and travelling in excess of 80kph, how would you propose we merge a 16.75 metre vehicle if all drivers refuse to move over?

And what if the motorway traffic isn't light or moving over isn't an option? What's needed is some clarity and consistency on the issue. I agree with you that it is difficult to merge in a long vehicle with a limiter however AFAIC this doesn't mean drivers should be making up their own "courtesy rules" for merging. So lets say you're driving on a M-way and an artic wants to merge, there should be some clearer rules about what both you and the artic are *obliged* to do. At the moment some drivers speed up to let others merge, others slow down, some pull into another lane, some mergers believe that they have right or way, others don't bother getting up to a reasonable speed even though their vehicles are well capable of it. Some merge too early, others too late. And nobody seems to know what they're supposed to do if they run out of road before they manage to merge.

Yakuza

I took the car to France this year, and I was blown away by the courtesy and common sense displayed by road users there. Every time I was merging onto a motorway (or dual carriageway), any traffic would move over one lane to the left, leaving me with plenty of room to merge. I don't think it was just because they saw I had a foreign reg and the steering wheel on the "wrong" side - it seemed to be a standard practice. I adopted that habit while there, and use to this day (naturally, moving to the right while driving here!).

The reason that they could move to the left was because that lane was treated properly as an overtaking lane, and was generally empty - something we as a nation have yet to master.

fletch

Recently I've started flashing the hazards when a car pulls out of the overtaking lane and lets me past. Maybe then they will learn not to hog the overtaking lane as they realise they've done something good.

Stark

I find traffic usually moves over on Irish roads as well. That or brake hard or crash into the back of the guy merging at 35mph.

When I was over in France with the parents, I found French drivers to be very aggressive. It was like a nation of taxi drivers and we were wearing the L-plates. We even got ran off the road at one point by an ambulance who once it squeezed past us, switched off its sirens and trundled along in front of us at 30mph (half the speed limit). Then before we left, a car drove into the back of us while we were waiting to enter a roundabout.

Pherekydes

BrianD3 wrote:

...AFAIC...

What's this stand for?

As regards merging, moving over when it is safe to do so is entirely logical. You can allow multiple cars to merge in safety. But some mergers expect you to move over regardless as to whether the outside lane is empty or not.

As regards driving in France, yes, the French are faster, more aggressive and entirely predictable, which is exactly what you want, isn't it? Too many accidents happen when the guy in front does something completely unpredictable. The drivers here are, due to lack of good instruction, thorough testing and most importantly, rigidly enforced standards, unpredictable.

BrianD3

Slow coach wrote:

What's this stand for?

As far as i'm concerned

As regards merging, moving over when it is safe to do so is entirely logical. You can allow multiple cars to merge in safety.

But those multiple cars that you've just let merge may immediately "undertake" you. They may tailgate each other and quickly accelerate to a speed faster than you're going at. Now you're stranded in the overtaking lane and aren't able to get back into the driving lane as quickly as you anticipated. You may have to increase your speed in order to "merge" back into the driving lane. While all of this is going on someone may come up behind you in the overtaking lane and you impede him. You may also be guilty of breaking the keep left unless overtaking rule. All of this is your thanks for courteously moving over to let drivers merge onto the motorway when they were supposed to give way to you anyway.

The above phenomenon is not such a problem if you're in a car but I have heard UK lorry drivers say it drives them bananas so they no longer pull into the middle lane to let drivers merge onto the M-way.

bbbbb

dbfarrell wrote:

What really p*sses me off is the way you let another car out/into the lane (in the case of merging) or pull in to let them pass and there is bloody thanks. A few years ago, you would at least get the flash of the hazzards or a wave.

I too have stopped letting in most cars merge infront of me, a little gratitude goes a long way

Some cars the hazard lights aren't as accessible as others, on mine they're lower down & I find I have to take my eyes off the road to turn them on. I'm sure activating hazard lights while you were still actively driving wasn't something the designers were thinking of!

Rovi

bbbbb wrote:

Some cars the hazard lights aren't as accessible as others, on mine they're lower down & I find I have to take my eyes off the road to turn them on. I'm sure activating hazard lights while you were still actively driving wasn't something the designers were thinking of!

Try using the old truckers' technique of flashing <left> <right> <left> (or <right> <left> <right>) with your indicators.
No taking your eyes off the road to look for the hazard switch, or even taking a hand off the wheel either.
Truckers understand it straight away, and the vast majority of other motorists quickly recognise it as an acknowledgement for a courtesy done.

fletch

bbbbb wrote:

Some cars the hazard lights aren't as accessible as others, on mine they're lower down & I find I have to take my eyes off the road to turn them on. I'm sure activating hazard lights while you were still actively driving wasn't something the designers were thinking of!

Yeh in Fords up until quite recently they were in front of the steering wheel meanin you had to put your hand through the gap in the steering wheel....very dangerous if you ask me.

Diddy Kong

bbbbb wrote:

Some cars the hazard lights aren't as accessible as others, on mine they're lower down & I find I have to take my eyes off the road to turn them on. I'm sure activating hazard lights while you were still actively driving wasn't something the designers were thinking of!

Its not just the hazard lights, even a wave is all most people expect if you let them into traffic!!

DublinWriter

Stark wrote:

When I was over in France with the parents, I found French drivers to be very aggressive...Then before we left, a car drove into the back of us while we were waiting to enter a roundabout.

It's normally a good idea to have a basic idea of the rules of the road of the country in which you'll be driving.

I'm no forensic car-crash specalist but the words 'France' and 'waiting to enter a roundabout' would to be give me quite a strong indication of why exactly that particular accident happened.

DublinWriter

Rovi wrote:

Try using the old trucker's technique of flashing <left> <right> <left> (or <right> <left> <right>) with your indicators.
No taking your eyes off the road to look for the hazard switch, or even taking a hand off the wheel either.
Truckers understand it straight away, and the vast majority of other motorists quickly recognise it as an acknowledgement for a courtesy done.

Nice one, will begin implementing said technique tomorrow. In the old Primera it was quite easy to 'slap the dash' to flash the hazzards, in the new Beemer I'm always fumbling around somewhere between the gearstick and rear ashtray.

Does anyone else here do the 'three-flashes' thing to indicate an uncoming speed-trap to oncoming motorists? Two flashes is more of an acknowledgement to me.

fletch

Something that drives me crazy is when I'm leavin a gap for people to merge in front of me and then some twat from way back crosses the hatching and merges into the place and then flashes his hazards as if to say thanks!!!! GRrrr it really annoys me

dr.bollocko

I think we do need more courtesy on the roads. Even misplaced courtesy is more welcome than some white van driving up your arse. The amount of times I have been overtaken coming onto a motorway by someone doing 90 mph+ and zooming by me in the near lane as I am rapidly running out of lanespace, its ****ing ridiculous. Just move into the overtaking lane you bastard! Driving in foreign countries is quite refreshing. They seem to be a lot more patient and decent to other drivers.

_Kaiser_

I usually will let people in/out where possible (and appropriate) - eg: if I'm in a steady but slowly moving line of traffic I'll leave a gap and flash the headlights to let someone go. Similarly, I always give a wave or flash of the hazards if someone does the same for me.

Courtesy is sadly lacking on the roads in a lot of cases though but the worst example I've seen of "misplaced courtesy" was the idiot in front of me on the N3 one evening who decided to just stop dead from 100kph in traffic at the Dunboyne junction to let a van pull across.

Luckily I was far enough behind him to be able to stop in time, but the full beams came on and I leaned on the horn (while cars following me had swerved into the hard shoulder to undertake) and what does this muppet do? moves off after 30 seconds while shaking his head in the mirror at me?!! Moron! :mad:

Stark

DublinWriter wrote:

I'm no forensic car-crash specalist but the words 'France' and 'waiting to enter a roundabout' would to be give me quite a strong indication of why exactly that particular accident happened.

No France changed their roundabout rules years ago to match with the rest of Europe.

Kaiser2000 wrote:

I usually will let people in/out where possible (and appropriate) - eg: if I'm in a steady but slowly moving line of traffic I'll leave a gap and flash the headlights to let someone go. Similarly, I always give a wave or flash of the hazards if someone does the same for me.

I notice in the UK driving test, you're required to leave junctions clear if you're in a slow moving queue of traffic, ie: treat every junction as if it were a box junction. Not sure if you should do the same on the Irish driving test.

AMurphy

BrianD3 wrote:

......

Then there's the practice of jumping into the overtaking lane on an M-way to let other drivers merge onto te M-way. I think this is bad practice. Firstly you could impede someone in the overtaking lane, Secondly, merging drivers will expect drivers to move over every time and will not make the effort to merge properly. The third one is if someone moves into the overtaking lane to facilitate mergers and promptly gets undertaken by the same mergers. in other words the people he's just let merge don't facilitate him getting back into the driving lane. Maybe the mergers didn't want him to move over in the first place and are irritated that he did. If I am merging I'd prefer drivers not to move over as I am perfectly capable of merging without their help. It can also be off putting if you are planning your merge and tracking cars in your mirrors and they suddenly jump into another lane, can cause confusion and doubt.

I disagree on this one in part anyway. The part I disagree with is moving into the fast lane so as not to have to change speed for the oncoming vehicle.
even if there is somethign coming along the fast lane, I can still manage to slip in withoug being a problem and there is plenty warning wrt a car coming down a ramp, so plenty time to organize onself.

The bit I see as the problem, it eh "jumping lanes" bit, as this gives me the impression some daudler suddenly woke up to the fact that there was a car coming down the ramp and possibly "jumping" in front of them and now they need to jump somewhere else or rear end it.
As I said there are few ramps in roi in total and very few short ones that I have noticed. Ther is a pretty stupid one with a STOP sign and no lead-in on the S side of the M50/Lucan RA. maybe it has been rectified, maybe not.

kikel

fletch wrote:

Recently I've started flashing the hazards when a car pulls out of the overtaking lane and lets me past. Maybe then they will learn not to hog the overtaking lane as they realize they've done something good.

I've started flashing at drivers to get out of my way. I'm not speeding, just sticking to the limit. When they get out of my way i too acknowledge them to say thanks for moving over.. Maybe someday overtaking lane hogger s will learn. Flashing can be seen to be aggressive driving in my opinion. But a thank you afterwards makes a huge difference.

ambro25

DublinWriter wrote:

I'm no forensic car-crash specalist but the words 'France' and 'waiting to enter a roundabout' would to be give me quite a strong indication of why exactly that particular accident happened.

I utterly fail to see any causality between the word 'France' and being rear-ended whilst waiting to proceed on a roundabout (unless you're trolling of course - then the causality is clear).

The words 'UK', 'Germany', 'Spain' and *especially* 'Ireland' may be associated just the same. Sh1t happens globally, y'know.

As for courtesy on roads, after 15 years of driving all over the shop, nowhere is it better IME than in the North of the UK (defined as from Birmingham upwards). 'Taught me much about courtesy, which I apply daily in Ireland... and in terms of 'educating' the 'courtesied' Irish drivers in doing so, apparently to no avail still