Hospital Radio Frequencies Changed by BCI

bbability

I hear the BCI have moved most of the countries hospital radio stations to new lower power 5 watt frequencies. The main stations in Dublin have all been moved to 89.5fm from their various different frequencies. The latest victim is St Ita's in Portrane. Pity I used to like listening to their overnight system on the way home on the M1. Unfortunatley that won't be possible on 89.5 with RTE interference. Does anyone know if hospital stations are funded by the BCI or by hospitals themselves? They don't seem to have the support they used to have. Many a talent on our airwaves today came from Hosptial Radio.

Our man in Havana

Surely they are not allowed to have RTE drowning out another licenced station? The BCI should be made reconsider.

Liam Byrne

They made Regional Hospital Radio in Limerick move to 94.2, despite Raidio na Gaeltachta being right beside it on 94.4

Where the signal is strong and you've a good radio, there's no problem, but otherwise the quality and coverage has definitely suffered.

Guess money and big business talks, while community services get the crumbs.:(

DMC

Ah Bond, you miss the point.
Hospital radios are really low powered. I'm less than 6km from the Mater Hospital, and I can't get their Hospital radio unless I'm actually within 1km of it.

Our man in Havana

So your saying that they should only have enough ERP to reach 1 km?

DMC

Bond-007 wrote:

So your saying that they should only have enough ERP to reach 1 km?

It's only really meant to have enough wattage to cover the hospital. A high-powered i-trip....
I understand that power might have reduced with the frequency changes, but such is the squeeze on frequencies the capital now has.

Liam Byrne

DMC wrote:

such is the squeeze on frequencies the capital now has.

.....which offers no explanation as to why it's occurred all around the country.

The main issue was the arrival of NewsTalk; lots of hospital stations had been allocated above 106, which is now part of the 106-108 allocated sub-band.

As with RTE's txs, there's plenty of overspill and waste, with even the "quasi-national" NewsTalk coming into Limerick strongly on 5 frequencies.....

DMC

There is also the possibilty that the licenced commerical stations compained about the signals the hospital outfits had, and this is the result. Just a thought.

bbability

There was a piece in last nights Evening Hearld about the way the BCI have gone about moving hospital stations. It would be nice if evryone was treated the same. Hospital Stations are fine broadcasting to their grounds as long as all their patients are situated on the grounds. What if the hospital has a restbite unit or houses for patients out in the surrounding area? Are they "obliged" to cover those properties aswell? Seems very unfair that they are scruntinised to the very last and the big stations can broadcast as far awide as they want...

The Muppet

DMC wrote:

There is also the possibilty that the licenced commerical stations compained about the signals the hospital outfits had, and this is the result. Just a thought.

Interesting point and it could well explain recent developments. However most of the commercial and local stations can be heard well outside their franchise area . Will they be the next target for the BCI? To my mind if lack of frequencies are the real issue it would make sense to enforce regulations on the higher powered stations some of whom can be heard 50 and 60 miles outside their allotted area ?

DMC

A lot of that has to do with geography....

For instance... going up to Belfast I checked to see where I'd lose the Phantom signal... and daft as it may sound, Phantom was breaking in on 105.2 the whole way up the road, up to the old Grosvenor Road roundabout (now flyover) And its one of the lower-powered ILR's from Dublin!

Northern Sound covers Cavan and Monaghan, yet you can barely hear it beyond its boundaries on FM, but the Dublin ILR's have an uninterrupted path to the border and beyond.

The Muppet

DMC wrote:

A lot of that has to do with geography....

For instance... going up to Belfast I checked to see where I'd lose the Phantom signal... and daft as it may sound, Phantom was breaking in on 105.2 the whole way up the road, up to the old Grosvenor Road roundabout (now flyover) And its one of the lower-powered ILR's from Dublin!

Northern Sound covers Cavan and Monaghan, yet you can barely hear it beyond its boundaries on FM, but the Dublin ILR's have an uninterrupted path to the border and beyond.

Geography has little to do with it. Antenna placement and actual ERP would be a more likely explanation. Is there really a need for mountain sites for local stations.

If small stations broadacting a few KM outside their franchise area is a concern surlely higher powered stations broadcasting tens of Km's outsider theirs should be just as much if not more of a concern. Is this being addressed by The BCI? If not why?

bkehoe

Mast positions and ERP is to do with Geography. The number of transmitters also comes into it. The BCI generally like to have the smallest number of transmitters to cover any given area, as this means less frequencies in use. For the radio station it's more financially viable the less TX sites they have.

It's also worth considering that 'anorak' signal thresholds are far lower than the international standards - i.e. 48dBuV/m for rural mono. You can probably hear a signal of 30dBuV/m on a typical car radio with a bit of hiss, etc, but what an enthusiast/anorak would consider audible.

Planning transmitter networks for radio stations involves a huge amount of work to find suitable sites to minimise overspill and give the best coverage within the franchise area, and give the smallest amount of coverage by more than 1 transmitter within the area (so that potentially multiple tx's could have the same frequency). I've been doing a lot in this field recently.

The next main problem once you find your perfect site is finding an existing mast on the hill/mountain in question. This isn't always possible and compromises are often necessary. Seeking planning permission takes months and you're not guaranteed permission, which many have found out the hard way.

Take Dublin for example. Three Rock is probably the only site with line of sight to nearly all the city. There are several existing masts with planning permission on the mountain. Keep in mind that the Urban Stereo threshold as defined by the ITU is 66dBuV/m, and then consider the clutter caused by buildings, etc in the city, and the fact that your target audience is going to be using coat hangers in their radios, mobile phone radios with pieces of wire as the antenna, etc, and you can see how essential it is to get this kind of signal to the city. Trying to remember a map I did, but a station on Three Rock with 5KW ERP (as is used by 1 or more), as received by a receiver 2M above ground level (typical for a car) has already dropped below 66dBuV/m outside of the M50, even before it on the north side.

The reason Three Rock gets so far North then is because there's no significant mountains blocking the signal. This is why you can hear it almost as far as Newry, Cavan, etc. But you can be assured that the signal is below 48dBuV/m in these locations, and they are considered to not be covered. You can easily see the effect the mountains have on reception to the south, e.g. once past Nass on the N9, or between Wicklow and Arklow on the N11. In fact 104.4 is reused by East Coast in Arklow I think... Three Rock is audible in Arklow, but the signal level is considered low enough to be able to reuse the frequency.

I've rambled on way too much now, and have forgotton what exactly my point was! Form your own opinions based on what I've said!

DMC

Actually, I had this reply typed up last night, but I forgot to press "post reply"
bkehoe covered the points more technically than I ever could, but here is wot I rote last night

If you place an antenna on a large geographical feature, you will get good results.

For FM reception, mountain or hillside transmission has long been the best method of transmission. For MW, LW or SW transmissions, plains are normally used. (Athlone and Tullamore for MW, Summerhill for LW here in Ireland, Lisnagarvey in Lisburn)

Three Rock is a great location for TV and Radio transmitters. Spur Hill overlooks Cork well. Clermont Carn is great as its a big old mountain overlooking the border, great for Free State propaganda

Take 98FM, 10kw from Three Rock, blasts across most of Louth Meath, Westmeath and North Kildare. Look at LMFM, from Mount Oriel at 10kw, it berely reaches into the heart of Dublin City.

I would agree somewhat on ERP, especially in Dublin. To cover just County Dublin, there isn't a place that can't see Three Rock. So line of sight helps rather than power.

Hospital radio doesn't need hillside transmitters, just a mast on its premises is enough.

I would be a firm advocate of the BCI and Comreg having an audit of the FM band, and see if it can be laid out better. What we have at the present is trying to put square pegs in round holes, trying to find gaps in the band to licence stations. Where that leaves stations like 98FM and 96FM who have their frequencies embedded into their brand, remains to be seen. I say as they are a gift from Comreg/BCI, they haven't a leg to stand on, tbh.

Liam Byrne

True, having a single, higher-powered tx minimises the frequencies in use, but it also minimises the available frequencies in adjacent areas - e.g. Red FM clearly available on 3 frequencies in Limerick City (arguably OK due to proximity) and Beat 102-103 clearly available too (not OK due to proximity).

The area where the station is meant to be broadcasting benefits by having more frequencies available, while the regions receiving the overspill (and I mean significant overspill, as some is unavoidable) are told "the band is nearly used up, tough ****!"

The Muppet

Liam Byrne wrote:

True, having a single, higher-powered tx minimises the frequencies in use, but it also minimises the available frequencies in adjacent areas - e.g. Red FM clearly available on 3 frequencies in Limerick City (arguably OK due to proximity) and Beat 102-103 clearly available too (not OK due to proximity).

The area where the station is meant to be broadcasting benefits by having more frequencies available, while the regions receiving the overspill (and I mean significant overspill, as some is unavoidable) are told "the band is nearly used up, tough ****!"

Exactly , Maybe those stations should be moved to the sub bands of the national channels though they would more than likely just refuse to budge as has happened in the past.

Big Tone

Maybe if all the hospital stations got together with the BCI and demanded they all share a single frequency like maybe 87.9 ie below RTE .

This part of the FM band is seriously underutilised and the sooner comreg, the BCI and the Government realise that this is a monumental waste of a natural resource, one of the very few we've got in this dependant country, the better for everyone concerned.

Liam Byrne

Aren't there still lots of radios that can only go from 88 to 108 ?

87.9 would be a disaster for those.

The Muppet

Big Tone wrote:

Maybe if all the hospital stations got together with the BCI and demanded they all share a single frequency like maybe 87.9 ie below RTE .

This part of the FM band is seriously underutilised and the sooner comreg, the BCI and the Government realise that this is a monumental waste of a natural resource, one of the very few we've got in this dependant country, the better for everyone concerned.

Lyric uses frequencies between 87 and 88 Mhz . I do agree that if the lower powered stations have to be all put on one or two frequencies it would be helpful if those frequencies were clear and not be buried underneath high powered national stations as is the current policy.

If the powers that be are really interested in promoting and supporting the smaller stations that is the least they could do.

bbability

The problem is they're not interested (BCI). Do you see a section in there PPI awards for the community or hospital stations? I think not. Sure what money do they have to buy awards?
Had a listen to the test transmission from St Ita's on 89.5 fm (and feel free to use this as research for the BCI as requested by the station) and the signal is awful. RTE 1 is all over it. It sounds very distant and that was in Donabate. I was speaking to someone who lives out that way. Had a conversation about the hospital station. They were very annoyed. Appartantley its been apart of that community for over 20 years. This person also asked how the station would reach the residential homes set up aorund north county Dublin. Obviously St Ita's is a different set up to a Genral Hospital such as Beaumont or the Mater. Its obvious the BCI didn't think of that.

Wishbone Ash

bbability wrote:

The problem is they're not interested (BCI). Do you see a section in there PPI awards for the community or hospital stations? I think not. Sure what money do they have to buy awards?
Had a listen to the test transmission from St Ita's on 89.5 fm (and feel free to use this as research for the BCI as requested by the station) and the signal is awful. RTE 1 is all over it. It sounds very distant and that was in Donabate. I was speaking to someone who lives out that way. Had a conversation about the hospital station. They were very annoyed. Appartantley its been apart of that community for over 20 years. This person also asked how the station would reach the residential homes set up aorund north county Dublin. Obviously St Ita's is a different set up to a Genral Hospital such as Beaumont or the Mater. Its obvious the BCI didn't think of that.

I sometimes have the opposite problem. I can't get RTE Radio 1 on 89.1 as St Ita's HR interferes with it! (PS St Ita's HR is also available/or used to be available way down around 78 FM. Why is/was that?

Antenna

Big Tone wrote:

Maybe if all the hospital stations got together with the BCI and demanded they all share a single frequency like maybe 87.9 ie below RTE .

This part of the FM band is seriously underutilised.

Whether we like it or not they possibly have plans of using that space (87.5-88) for the national religious station which will have FM transmitters in the cities and large towns (as well as a part national AM transmitter).

As things are - the BCI are going to say that the hospital stations are only licenced for the grounds of the hospitals, there is no problem receiving the new frequencies within the grounds of the hospitals, and they have no right to complain about the reception difficulties which are there with the new frequencies outside the grounds of the hospitals. The only solution for the hospital stations, to have a clear, easily received frequency in the rest of the city, is to give up their institutional licence and get some sort of a community licence instead.

Liam, radios that cannot tune below 88 are not intended for the European market, they were destined for America no doubt, complain to your retailer if you bought one that cannot tune 87.5-88

Wishbone Ash, the RTE interference is surely only happening in areas where you should be tuned to another frequency instead - 88.5?

The Muppet

Wishbone Ash wrote:

I sometimes have the opposite problem. I can't get RTE Radio 1 on 89.1 as St Ita's HR interferes with it! (PS St Ita's HR is also available/or used to be available way down around 78 FM. Why is/was that?

Hi Wishbone Ash.

Have you reported the interference you are recieving to St. Ita's or RTE? St. Ita's are currently testing on 89.5 and are looking for listeners observations.

Antenna

The Muppet wrote:

Hi Wishbone Ash.

Have you reported the interference you are recieving to St. Ita's or RTE? St. Ita's are currently testing on 89.5 and are looking for listeners observations.

But he was tuned to the wrong frequency for RTE R1

and RTE on 89.5 is for Greystones in co. Wicklow

see http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:Wq5ESFlROWoJ:www.rte.ie/radio/DE.html+89.5+Greystones&hl=en&gl=ie&ct=clnk&cd=1

He should be tuned to 88.5 for RTE Radio 1

Wishbone Ash

Antenna wrote:

But he was tuned to the wrong frequency for RTE R1

He should be tuned to 88.5 for RTE Radio 1

No, I said 89.1 not 89.5. That is the frequency in which I usually listen to Radio 1 on and had no interference until relatively recently.

Antenna

If you listen on 88.5 (RTE from 3 Rock) is that not as good or better than 89.1 ?

Wishbone Ash

Antenna wrote:

If you listen on 88.5 (RTE from 3 Rock) is that not as good or better than 89.1 ?

No, generally much better on 89.1.

bbability

Wishbone Ash wrote:

No, I said 89.1 not 89.5. That is the frequency in which I usually listen to Radio 1 on and had no interference until relatively recently.

You'll find that most modern radio's have use RDS to source the strongest signal. St Ita's does not use RDS so you should have no problem receiveing RTE 1 as their signal will override a signal such as St Ita's on 89.5. I remember when beaumont were forced to move to 89.5 and you only had to stick the nose of the car outside the car park and the radio would automatically flick from 89.5 to 89.1 as the new Beaumont signal was and still is very weak.

I wonder now that there is 3 hospital stations within close proximity of each other using one frequency is causing your problem.

Liam Byrne

Adding to the point about the PPI radio awards having no category for hospital stations, there's also no listenership survey done for them, as the JNLR is purely for advertising purposes. The same will apply to Choice FM next time around.

The BCI seem to be more interested in keeping the (mainly foreign) investors happy than nurturing local, community or hospital radio.

If they treated like with like, 98FM would have been moved when Lyric were allocated that sub-band.

But, like all politics and decisions in Ireland, the more money you have, the more clout you have.....:mad:

ZENER

St. Ita's Hospital Radio has been is operation since the early '80s and is a special case where hospital radio is concerned. Being the first ever station with a license to broadcast (yes even before RTE Radio 1 & 2 !!) St. Ita's HR cater for for many ancillary premises' where former residents reside but are still within the jurisdiction of the hospital.

The BCI appear to care less about hospital radio and more about commercial interest as is evident in the case of Phantom FM who they alloted the 97.4fm frequency while they were still a "pirate" station a couple of years ago and who now have a commercial license.

97.4 MHz is unused at the moment except in Northern Ireland and does not appear in the radar for any proposed stations in the near future so why is it so important to make it available ? 89.5 puts limitations the coverage of St. Ita's making reception outside the hospital grounds difficult (with the proposed 5 watts mono )and reception in the ancillary buildings in Balbriggan, Lusk etc. near impossible on domestic equipment - Radio 1 blanking out reception in these areas. Even walking about the hospital grounds shows up limitations.

In MY opinion St. Ita's falls into the Special Interest category of local radio and as such should be at least granted the special dispensation of higher ERP (20 Watts - the currently permitted power) and/or the same frequency (97.4MHz). Listener surveys on the new frequency prove this with complaints of "very hissy" or "I hear Pat Kenny, is he working for ye now . . . ".

I know that the presenters are dedicated to the cause but who wants to work on radio if you can't be heard ?


ZEN

Edited to cater for some over sensitive people !!

SimonMaher

ZENER wrote:

The BCI appear to care less about hospital radio and more about commercial interest as is evident in the case of Phantom FM who they alloted our frequency while they were still a "pirate" station a couple of years ago and who now have a commercial license

ZEN

Zen,

Just a correction from sell-out central here. Phantom were never allocated St Itas frequency of 97.4. Similar to many other temporary licencees, Phantom were given 97.3 along with at least a dozen other temporary stations that year and indeed since then. I cant understand the comment about the BCI allocating Phantom the frequency when "they were still a pirate". That just makes no sense.

Simon

ZENER

I stand corrected, 97.3 it was. Just close enough to cause interference if I recall.

Note I wrapped the word pirate in quotes to distinguish it. Phantom were a pirate or unlicensed station who took the legal route to obtain a license - congratulations on that by the way and good luck in ye'r endeavours !

They were (are) unique, I think, as the BCI weren't renowned for their sympathy for "pirates" but the following that they had was strong and they set a precedent (I think) which is great.

ZEN

Antenna

ZENER wrote:

I stand corrected, 97.3 it was. Just close enough to cause interference if I recall.

The interference you mention would only have been happening outside your licensed area. Your station is only licensed for the grounds of the hospital. If you want programmes to be reliably heard over a wider area the best thing to do is cooperate with and have some programmes broadcast over a community station that is receivable in your area (NEAR FM?)

You seem to be taking out some of your anger with the BCI on Phantom FM in some of your posts here (in 'Radio'), I do find this amusing

ZENER

Perhaps bringing up that old chestnut was not wise in retrospect - it was discussed at length at the time and both sides of the argument felt they had valid points and discussed them openly on forum.

This thread is about the relocation of Hospital radio stations throughout the country to a single frequency which - IN MY OPINION - is totally unsuitable for the purpose and totally misses out on the effect on those that count - the listeners.

St. Ita's is a special case in this topic, many of the listeners to the service have listened on 97.4 since it started and will have difficulty tuning in and trying to find their service if the move goes ahead, these are the people for whom such services are set up and for whom many hard working and highly dedicated people put in their own time and effort FREELY and very often at cost to themselves. Along with this St. Ita's Hospital Radio caters for residents who are not on the campus but in community care units through out Fingal (as far afield as Balbriggan). There has been no consideration given to this fact.

You seem to be taking out some of your anger with the BCI on Phantom FM in some of your posts here (in 'Radio'), I do find this amusing

I don't feel bitter towards stations that stay within their remit and I'm sure Phantom will be as law abiding as many other stations who are licensed. The other post you refer to had nothing whatsoever to do with this topic but were merely my own observations on the station as a commercial entity.

I remember my own youth and my involvment with "pirate" radio and the affiliations and connection I felt with the likes of Sunshine and Nova who as I saw it were sticking one finger up at the authorities at the time. The authorities listened - gave us an alternative to RTE Radio 1 & 2. Unfortunately these stations all ended up sounding the same, something I predict will befall Phantom when reality bites and bills have to be paid !!

ALL opinions expressed above are my own and are not indicitive of St. Ita's Hospital Radio, it's management or affiliated organisations - ok?

ZEN

bbability

Antenna,

Please add something constructive to this discussion rather than point out the fact that "a hospital station" can be heard past the main entrance. This thread is about many issues surrounding the future of Hospital and community broadcasting around the country whether you like it or not. I started this thread to have an open and balanced debate about this issue.The fact that most people in both independant an pubilc broadcasting have no interest in such things openly, I thought this would be a nice place to have an open view on the matter.
And couldn't agree more with the post above from Zener. The Bci have alot to answer for. I'm sure alot of people don't know this but St Ita's is actually broadcasting on a Temporary license at present as their current one ran out in August. Reason being is that they were landed with the frequencey move a week or so they were to sign contracts. It was very unprofessional and rude in my opinion. Now you tell me if they would pull the same stunt your 104's or 98's? :rolleyes: They wouldn't even dare. They tried it 98fm many years ago to move them from 98.1 to 105.3 (i think) and you can bet your bottom dollar it never happend, hence they still broadcast on 98.1 today.
And on the issue of "power"....Since when was that ever regulated by the BCI.or COmreg.. not in this lifetime. I was listening to DCAL (Dublin CITY Anna Livia 103.2fm) at the Toll bridge in Drogheda tonight. Since when did Drogheda become Dublin City????
Instead of beating these stations down with a big metal pole, give them some help and give them your support for a change.

bbability

http://www.hospitalradio.ie/site_flash/index_fl.html

Interesting news update on the hospital radio website.

Liam Byrne

bbability wrote:

Interesting news update on the hospital radio website.

Is my eyesight going, or does that site say "Muck more than just music" ?