Why are Serie A attendances on the slide?

MrJoeSoap

Not even a World Cup triumph has reversed the decline. Just three and a half months after 500,000 fans poured onto the streets of Rome to acclaim Marcello Lippi's side, attendances in Italy's top flight have dropped to their lowest since 1970 - an average of just 19,511 after seven games. That's barely half the Premiership average of 34,084 so far this season, and only marginally better than the Championship's 17,368. Perhaps most worrying of all, it also represents an 8.7% fall on the same period last season.

The figures are shocking, inconceivable in a country where football has always been so intrinsic to the national psyche, and where a ticket for next week's Milan derby - one of the biggest on the European calendar - can be bought for as little as 14 euros. The gut reaction is to blame the drop-off on this summer's other events, namely the match-fixing scandal which undermined years of supporters' financial and emotional investment in their clubs. Things are not so simple. Serie A attendances have been on the slide since the 1997-98 season. At worst Calciopoli accelerated an existing trend.

Nor, despite some commentators' panicked analyses, can the problem be attributed predominantly to saturated television coverage. That particular challenge is shared by all of Europe's biggest leagues, and of the other big four (the Premiership, Germany's Bundesliga, Spain's La Liga and France's Ligue 1) only the Bundesliga and Ligue 1 have experienced a fall in attendance from the same period last season, both by about 1% (although the Premiership's small rise in attendances is entirely due to the increased capacities at Arsenal and Manchester United).

As former Italy manager Arrigo Sacchi points out in his column in today's La Gazzetta Dello Sport the current predicament is far too complex to be attributed to a single cause. Fans have to contend with stadiums that are "tired, obsolete, inhospitable and structured like the Colosseum", points out Sacchi, as well as the increased presence of violent, often racist Ultras, who make life miserable for moderate fans and "would not have a place in any part of civilised Europe". The clubs themselves have alienated supporters, argues Sacchi, not only by fixing matches (the Calciopoli scandal is not the first - Genoa were relegated for a similar offence in 2004), but also by faking passports for players and repeatedly mismanaging their finances, with a succession of clubs having gone bankrupt only to rise from the dead under a minimally changed name.

There are short-term causes, too, such as the absence of Juventus from the top flight. The Old Lady, despite poor home attendances, added glamour to the league and brought considerable away support to many fixtures. Their presence has certainly been felt in Serie B, where, with high-profile clubs Genoa and Napoli currently also plying their trade at the lower level, attendances for the eighth round of games were over double what they were last year.

The shame in it all is that this season's Serie A has been one of the most interesting in years, with a gloriously gung-ho Palermo getting among the big guns and a genuine uncertainty about who will win the Scudetto. If ever there was a time for Italian football to get its act together and make a concerted effort to win back the fans, then it must be now, in the post-Moggi climate, where everything is still up for grabs. Sadly, with the unifying force of the World Cup already fading from memory, it already looks like another missed opportunity.

I'm not a regular viewer of the Serie A, but I had no idea things had gotten this bad. I was aware that Italian cup matches over the years had pathetic attendances (I vaguely remember seeing a Juventus game at the Delle Alpi with only around a thousand at it) but for the league to go the same way so soon after Italy winning the World Cup is amazing. Even if you take the attempted match-fixing and all that went with it, it hardly justifies a slide of the proportions that have been seen, especially when you consider that it is the 9th season in a row that the average has been in decline.

Current attendances are almost half that of the Premiership, and linger just above the average Championship level. Serie B averages are on the increase (up roughly 20%), with the obvious explanation being that Juventus are now a part of the division.

Average attendances for 11 of the 20 English Premiership clubs are down, and the overall 1% increase has more to do with the new Emirates stadium and expansion of Old Trafford. Blackburns attendances have fallen by around 20% over the past four seasons, and they recently introduced a flat rate of £15 for the game against Bolton, which they unfortunately lost 1-0.

What factors do people think are to blame for these falls in attendance? Predictability? Live TV coverage? Lack of exciting football?

http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/sport/2006/10/25/why_are_serie_a_attendances_on.html

http://www.goal.com/en/Articolo.aspx?ContenutoId=154241

therecklessone

MrJoeSoap wrote:

What factors do people think are to blame for these falls in attendance? Predictability? Live TV coverage? Lack of exciting football?

Can't speak for the Italian game, but in England it's mainly pricing. Look at the difference between PL attendances and cup attendances...Bolton and Boro both struggled to get crowds in last season UEFA Cup, Wigan got 11k for their Carling Cup semi with Arsenal.

The type of fan who travelled home and away each week has been driven away, not only by the price of tickets, but also Sky's stranglehold over the fixture list means the traditional 3pmkick off on a Saturday is rarer and rarer. These fans have been replaced by a new breed, for a lot of whom football is just a leisure activity they get to spend their disposable income on. Like all lesiure activities, there's no emotional bond, so not going to a match doesn't bother them.

The commercial side of club's need to be overhauled and made more sensitive to fan's expectations. At Spurs we have a guaranteed cup ticket scheme that season ticket holders can sign up for, means you don't have to purchase individual cup tickets, its all done automatically for you. Our game against Bucarest in the UEFA is covered by it, not until Dec 14 but the ticket office debited people's credit cards the first week of October!

mike65

Could it be down to rampant corruption? No-one belives what they are watching. Liverpool sold out Anfield last night several hours before kick off so not all Prem side fans are deserting the ship. After Euro 96 EPL attendances shot up.

Mike,.

KdjaCL

Would you go and see a club you know is cheating...oh wait your a shels fan best ask someone else

But that would be the jist of it.


kdjac

mike65

Shels fan?????? I don't watch any EL side. Ugh!


Mike.

iregk

As an avid follower of Serie A and in particular my beloved Milan this is something that has been happening for a long time. Its a mixture of a lot of reasons and even at that everyone has their own spin on it. The article is true. Attendances have been going down and the calciopoli just brought it right down quicker. Kind of like the publicans blaming the smoking ban when in reality pub attendances were on the way down for 4 years prior!

So why is it happening. Well a number of reasons. A lot of stadiums are not liked by the fans. The Delli Alpi, the olympico in Rome, Tardini to name but some. Fans do not like these areans and so have been staying away. A poster said Serie B is on the way up but thats because of Juve. This is incorrect. See Juve no longer play in the Delle Alpi. They share the communiale stadium in Torino now as the Alpi has been shut down for renovation. Even this is on the back burner now due to the relegation. The new stadium is a 25k seater and Juve still can't fill it! That said I believe its a dire stadium with terrible views and from the 1st tier only 60% of the pitch being visable.

Corruption. For years and years we have all been suspicious that something was up. James Richardson's now famous line: "its as dodgy as a juve penalty" is a perfect anecdote to the league situation. The trouble with Italy was that its long been a society where you may question and have a conspiracy theory but you most certainly cannot say so in public. In other words don't question. This was blown up with teh calciopoli this year and for a change we have a sence of freedom in the league but the stale suspicion of a fix still lingers very strongly.

The other reason and in my opinion the biggest one that has been going on for a while is disenchantment. Italian fans are disillousioned with the league and players. Up to the late 90's Italian football was where the money was. The top wages and the top players. Money and talent go hand in hand. However as players no longer gave the same level of commitment they in turn expected a higher degree of wages. Del Piero for example until recently was on 130k a week. Now its 100k a game. Alvardo Recoba until a few years back was the highest earner on the planet at 120k a week. Thats an example but Serie A was full of those, Cristian Vieri being another. Players giving nothing but commanding huge wages. Ultimately the fans were footing the bill and this didn't sit well with the Italian way of thinking.

Lastly there has been a growing disconnection with the club from its fans and this has not gone down well. The Ultras for decades were ultimately the people who controlled the clubs. What they wanted and said went. Clubs going for the business rather than the game have somewhat distanced themselves from the at times hardline Ultras. Particularly true when it comes to the Lazio hard lines! The club dont want anything to do with offensive fascist banners. This has made a number of ultra groups disband and turn their backs on their clubs. Most notibly in this Milans once great Fossa Dei Leoni. Although its not the first time they have broken up.

All of the above reasons have seen fans turn away and like I said others will have more reasons. In a way its the same all over. La Liga attendances are down. The premiership is down if you take away Arsenals move and Uniteds expansion. Football has also hit saturation point from a TV perspective and many are turning off. Champions league attendances are also down. Maybe Italy is slightly ahead of the game here and this is a taste of whats to come on a wider perspective.

Perhaps one of the biggest, although for most the reason will have past them by, events from a fans perspective was the Inter - Milan postponent in recent seasons. To the average view that was hooligans getting a game stopped. To the closer observer it was a profound statement pre planned by the Inter tifosi to the clubs board to say that they are still in charge and they have the power to stop a game or get the club excluded from tournaments if they were not listened to.

Pepe LeFrits

Well, with a whopping 5 replies to this thread, seemingly the Italians are about as interested in Serie A as us boardsters are!

county

Touché

Pepe LeFrits

county wrote:

Touché

Is your name White Goodman?

county

Pepe LeFrits wrote:

Is your name White Goodman?

I know you. You know you. And I know you know that I know you.:D

Mr. Presentable

There's a couple of reasons.

1 Many of Italy's biggest clubs are not in Serie A., Bologna, Genoa, Napoli, Juventus. While Serie A does have, Catania, Messina etc. Small grounds.

2 Satellite TV card fraud is huge in Italy. Most, by a long way, of the cards in use are bogus, so watching on TV is cheap or free.

3 Did you know, it's as long a trip from Turin (juve for example) to Sicily (Messina) as from Turin to London. Imagine doing it by bus :eek: Also, Italy is more a collection of provinces than a country like, say, England, and each area is culturally different, giving the fans of a northern city an almost international feel for a trip to the south.

Juventus have 20 million fans in Italy. M<ost outside Turin, and they fill every ground but their own. It has been mooted in the past that they move to another city, or play all their games "away" in the manner of the Harlem Globetrotters

Savman

Italian football is boring. Period. It has been for years, no matter how many times I tried to watch a big game I always fell asleep (no joke). Nothing had me nodding off better than the goooooolacccioooo on Channel 4 every Sunday afternoon. People used to say Serie A was the best league in the world, well not for me.

If you ask me, Italian football got what was coming to it. They were undoubtedly deserved winners in Germany '06 but the damage was done by then. Cannavaro, their inspired Captain Fantastic left Italy for Spain as soon as he finished celebrating the world cup ffs! The corruption thing will cut deep I think and I've no sympathy at all. Match fixing and the likes is shameful and the hardcore fans won't come back easily.

MrJoeSoap

mike65 wrote:

Shels fan?????? I don't watch any EL side. Ugh!


Mike.

He was talking about me.

Chucky the tree

Savman wrote:

Italian football is boring. Period. It has been for years, no matter how many times I tried to watch a big game I always fell asleep (no joke). Nothing had me nodding off better than the goooooolacccioooo on Channel 4 every Sunday afternoon. People used to say Serie A was the best league in the world, well not for me.
.

Boring in what sense?


You obviously didnt catch the results of wednesday nights matches?

Mossy Monk

nipplenuts wrote:

2 Satellite TV card fraud is huge in Italy. Most, by a long way, of the cards in use are bogus, so watching on TV is cheap or free.

this excuse is not a valid one anymore. the 2 satellite providers merged into whats now Sky Italia. they use the same encryption as the Sky we get here. near impossible to crack

Carcharodon

Savman wrote:

Italian football is boring. Period. It has been for years, no matter how many times I tried to watch a big game I always fell asleep (no joke). Nothing had me nodding off better than the goooooolacccioooo on Channel 4 every Sunday afternoon. People used to say Serie A was the best league in the world, well not for me.

Well thats just a matter of opinion, granted some games can be boring but come on, we come across equally boring games every week in the premier league. Scrappy boring messy games.

The thing about Italian soccer is that it can be very technical with alot of build up play which can be frustrating for some people to watch but other people can really appreciate it

sundula

Serie A attendances always seemed poor to me except the Rome or Milan Derby matches. I always look at the scores in Mondays Indo and it lists the attendances and when you compare them to the Championship they are very unimpressive

DerekD Goldfish

Cannavaro, their inspired Captain Fantastic left Italy for Spain as soon as he finished celebrating the world cup ffs! T

That had a lot more to do with following his manager to a new club rather than being disenfranchised with Italian football I would say.
there is far more competition for our attention nowadys than ever before and I think football will be one of the things to suffer from this in the long run I see football wordwide loosing fans due to changing culture etc nad I dont think there is much that can be done about it.

Savman

Carcharodon wrote:

we come across equally boring games every week in the premier league. Scrappy boring messy games.

Absolutely and I don't watch them either. If there's no spice to a game then why bother? Italians turned football into some kind of arty complicated process. That's why fans turned away and they cant attract new viewers. Its all about GOALS and only this year did they finally understand that when they looked like an attacking team in Germany.

There's a reason why Brazil won so many world cups, they scored goals. As did France in '98. Italians are/were turning football into some kind of advanced jazz where only some people "get" what they're trying to do. I just think people have had enough of the tactical stalemates, corruption and widespread diving which has since caught on in other countries.

SectionF

mike65 wrote:

Shels fan?????? I don't watch any EL side. Ugh!
Mike.

Real life. Real players. Real supporters. Ugh again! Where's me remote? :rolleyes:
Maybe Italian football and English football are seeing falling attendances because they are staffed by too many over-rated, over-hyped celebrities that real (ugh!) supporters can see through.

Jivin Turkey

SectionF wrote:

Real life. Real players. Real supporters. Ugh again! Where's me remote? :rolleyes:
Maybe Italian football and English football are seeing falling attendances because they are staffed by too many over-rated, over-hyped celebrities that real (ugh!) supporters can see through.

English top flight average attendances have been the biggest they have been since the introduction of all seater stadia.

LuckyLloyd

iregk wrote:

Lastly there has been a growing disconnection with the club from its fans and this has not gone down well. The Ultras for decades were ultimately the people who controlled the clubs. What they wanted and said went. Clubs going for the business rather than the game have somewhat distanced themselves from the at times hardline Ultras. Particularly true when it comes to the Lazio hard lines! The club dont want anything to do with offensive fascist banners. This has made a number of ultra groups disband and turn their backs on their clubs. Most notibly in this Milans once great Fossa Dei Leoni. Although its not the first time they have broken up.

Now I don't mean to be smart in any way, but surely this has to be a distinctly positive development for Italian football? Clubs becoming more business savvy and looking to develop a more inclusive and marketable side to their image is obviously regrettable in some aspects; but if the fans who feel most alienated are the "Ultras", then the positives outweigh the negatives in my opinion. I love getting riled up when watching live football, and would consider myself to be a passionate supporter of the game - but there is no call for the racism and violence so often exhibited by these sections of support (as an aside it must be noted that "Ultras" exists in the majority of sports in Italy. It is a wide ranging social and cultural problem - even sports like basketball can have riots and violence!!).

Also, I completely agree with the posters that have pointed out that English football may go the same way. For me the real indicators are the attendances at FA / League / UEFA Cup matches (as pointed out earlier aswell). A significant percentage of Premiership tickets are taken up by season tickets, football tours and pre - booked tickets. People can plan a Premiership match months in advance and budget for it (a neccesity given the massive overpricing).

However, Cup draws do not lend themselves to that type of planning and I think it is fair to say that attendances at such games are a much better pointer towards how solid a clubs support base actually is. Liverpool sold out the other night, clubs like the Evertons and Boltons of this world get nowhere near a full house for most Cup games.

el rabitos

italian football has always had a distinct style based primarily on defending which may not appeal to the itialian fans going to matches as it once did?

its not as defence based as it was but perhaps theres just better football on the tv for the italians now

theres alot more access to faster paced football like the premiership and la liga to a lesser extent.

as someone else said above, alot of the stadiums need an overhaul, they dont look the most inviting or comfortable

SectionF

Jivin Turkey wrote:

English top flight average attendances have been the biggest they have been since the introduction of all seater stadia.

Do you mean the Premiership, or just the top 4 or 6?

PHB

They play boring football.

If you play attacking football, the fans will come.

Barca Real Madrid United don't ever have any trouble filling their massive stadiums, because they play entertaining football.

el rabitos

PHB wrote:

They play boring football.

If you play attacking football, the fans will come.

Barca Real Madrid United don't ever have any trouble filling their massive stadiums, because they play entertaining football.

boring in your opinion maybe

some people hate the wreckless end to end football, robust tackling and all that lark in the premiership

theres alot of entertainment in watching 2 good italian defences being tested, just watch the 2003 champions league final

Chucky the tree

Since Savman decided to ignore my question i will post up the results for him.

25 Oct 06 Chievo 0 - 1 AC Milan Details
25 Oct 06 Torino 0 - 1 Fiorentina Details
25 Oct 06 Empoli 1 - 1 Udinese Details
25 Oct 06 Internazionale 4 - 1 Livorno Details
25 Oct 06 Palermo 2 - 1 Messina Details
25 Oct 06 Reggina 3 - 2 Parma Details
25 Oct 06 AS Roma 2 - 2 Ascoli Details
25 Oct 06 Sampdoria 2 - 0 Lazio Details
25 Oct 06 Siena 1 - 1 Catania Details
25 Oct 06 Atalanta 3 - 3 Cagliari


Doesnt excactly look like a bore fest does it? Theres been more goals in the Seire A this season then the premiership. The premiership is infact the lowest. With la liga second last. Dutch are the highest.

There has been more matches over 2.5 goals then the premiership. Seire has had 41% of matches over 2.5. With england only having 38%. Again, premiership is the lowest out of Spain, italy, french, german and dutch leagues.

Guy:Incognito

Check out all the Kevin Keegan followers in the audience. A match is not nessicarily god just because it finishes 4-3. It pains me to see some of the shocing defending in these high scoring games. Everyone likes their team to bang in goals, but a neutral that has played football and knows the game (from more than a greedy strikers perspective) likes to see good defending aswell as goalscoring. A good last ditch tackle can be every bit as entertaining as a goal, especially a bad goal.

The Liverpool game the other night is a perfect example.Fowler scored with a lovely bit of skill but Liverpool conced with 3 reading players standing unmarked on the back post. I get not enjoyment out of seeign the latter type of goals, regardless whos playing.

Defenders are not just on the pitch to make up numbers you know.

MrJoeSoap

SectionF wrote:

Do you mean the Premiership, or just the top 4 or 6?

"On average, attendances are 90 per cent of capacity and are up 65 per cent since the start of the Premiership."

Jivin Turkey

SectionF wrote:

Do you mean the Premiership, or just the top 4 or 6?

I meant the Premiership but I've actually just double checked to see that top attendances were actually in 01/02. However average attendances are rising not falling so I fail to see what your original point was other than a cheap dig at the English Premiership from a EL follower with a chip on his shoulder.

Anyway, back to Italian football.

SectionF

Jivin Turkey wrote:

I meant the Premiership but I've actually just double checked to see that top attendances were actually in 01/02. However average attendances are rising not falling so I fail to see what your original point was other than a cheap dig at the English Premiership from a EL follower with a chip on his shoulder.

Oh dear.

Where's the cheap dig? If you care to track back, you'll see that I was responding to it.
Your 'chip on the shoulder' nonsense is also a cheap dig. My contribution is an expression of a view held by many people, and not only Irish football supporters. If anything, I would suggest that the chip on the shoulder belongs to people who go out of their way to put down Irish football.

As for the trends... or, as Bohemian FC supporters are wont to call them, FACTS!...
Ten of the Premiership's 20 clubs have suffered a slump in season ticket sales amid growing resentment among fans at high prices, lack of Saturday 3pm kick-offs and the league's predictability.


Analysis of early-season attendances suggests that the decline in Premiership gates is set to continue. Nine of the 17 top-flight sides that were in the division last year have suffered falling numbers through the turnstiles, with only the European champions Liverpool and Everton, back in Europe for the first time in a decade, recording significant increases.

Footballecoomy.com has your league peaking in 02/03, and on the slide since, despite some highly-publicised record attendances for those teams that attract mass support globally.

In my view, this decline is bad for (show)business and celebrity, and good for football.

For more... (mostly on P.2)
And more...

Mr. Presentable

PHB wrote:

They play boring football.

If you play attacking football, the fans will come.

Barca Real Madrid United don't ever have any trouble filling their massive stadiums, because they play entertaining football.

You are absolutely right!

A good analogy for it is wrestling. Your entertaining football is the WWE, whereas quality football is the Greco-Roman

On attendances is the EPL, I read somewhere that leaving aside Man Utd and Arsenal, average attendances have indeed been falling.

The problem generally to my mind is that football was once the game of the working man, entrance to a game was cheap and allegiances strong and locally grounded. Now the game is out of the reach to an extent of its background and traditional followers, and has become fashionista trash, where supporters now follow the successful team, the glamour team, the MU, Chelsea etc, with no local allegiance (fans in Dublin more passionate about what happens at Villa Park than Tolka Park) and no tradition. Thus the numbers are subject to supporter whim, where once they were dictated by loyalty.

Jivin Turkey

SectionF wrote:

Oh dear.

Indeed.

SectionF wrote:

Where's the cheap dig? If you care to track back, you'll see that I was responding to it.

You felt the need to bring English football into the debate. This thread is about falling attendances in Italian football. If you want to talk about attendances in English football open a new thread on it. I'll happily follow you.

SectionF wrote:

Your 'chip on the shoulder' nonsense is also a cheap dig. My contribution is an expression of a view held by many people, and not only Irish football supporters. If anything, I would suggest that the chip on the shoulder belongs to people who go out of their way to put down Irish football.

It is a dig. A deserved one IMO. I don't see anyone here going out of their way to put down Irish football but you still pull out the paranoid mantra. Hence my "chip on the shoulder" comment. Your response has proven it.

SectionF wrote:

As for the trends... or, as Bohemian FC supporters are wont to call them, FACTS!...
Ten of the Premiership's 20 clubs have suffered a slump in season ticket sales amid growing resentment among fans at high prices, lack of Saturday 3pm kick-offs and the league's predictability.

So the trend is that half the clubs in the English top flight have suffered a drop in season ticket sales. That would mean that half of them have experienced an increase. We are in a no gain/no loss position.

How does this prove falling attendances?

Particularly coupled with the fact that in those grounds where there are fewer season ticket holders, there may still be higher attendances due to the presence of non-season ticket holders.

SectionF wrote:

Analysis of early-season attendances suggests that the decline in Premiership gates is set to continue. Nine of the 17 top-flight sides that were in the division last year have suffered falling numbers through the turnstiles, with only the European champions Liverpool and Everton, back in Europe for the first time in a decade, recording significant increases.

For a start this link is out of date.

Secondly if nine out of 17 teams suffered falling numbers, eight out of the 17 must of had increased numbers. Working off the assumption that all promoted teams had higher gates that would lead me to conclude that 11 out of the 20 teams in the league had increased numbers or in other words, more clubs had more people in their grounds that those who had less people in their grounds.

SectionF wrote:

Footballecoomy.com has your league peaking in 02/03, and on the slide since, despite some highly-publicised record attendances for those teams that attract mass support globally.

Well the date of the peak is immaterial really. And why is this "my league"?

And if "on the slide since" you mean has slipped a massive 4% before rising back to similar levels to peak levels this year, well then I suppose they have been.

SectionF wrote:

In my view, this decline is bad for (show)business and celebrity, and good for football.

If you think that if fewer people are getting out and watching live football is of benefit to it well then I'm glad for you. Being a player myself, I know there is no feeling in the game like playing in front of a big crowd, and I'm sure that is the same at all levels.

Italian football is certainly suffering from it. I don't see how that is a good thing.

Savman

Chucky the tree wrote:

Since Savman decided to ignore my question i will post up the results for him.

25 Oct 06 Chievo 0 - 1 AC Milan Details
25 Oct 06 Torino 0 - 1 Fiorentina Details
25 Oct 06 Empoli 1 - 1 Udinese Details
25 Oct 06 Internazionale 4 - 1 Livorno Details
25 Oct 06 Palermo 2 - 1 Messina Details
25 Oct 06 Reggina 3 - 2 Parma Details
25 Oct 06 AS Roma 2 - 2 Ascoli Details
25 Oct 06 Sampdoria 2 - 0 Lazio Details
25 Oct 06 Siena 1 - 1 Catania Details
25 Oct 06 Atalanta 3 - 3 Cagliari


Doesnt excactly look like a bore fest does it? Theres been more goals in the Seire A this season then the premiership. The premiership is infact the lowest. With la liga second last. Dutch are the highest.

There has been more matches over 2.5 goals then the premiership. Seire has had 41% of matches over 2.5. With england only having 38%. Again, premiership is the lowest out of Spain, italy, french, german and dutch leagues.

Since when did this become a Serie A Vs Premiership issue? :rolleyes:

iirc the thread is about the falling crowds in Italy not Italy vs everywhere else. I think its a boring league so I dont watch it. Its fairly simple really. I havent forced the Premiership down anyones throat either, I just like a bit of spirit to the game and hate to see bland or defensive teams prosper. Call it what you will.

CiaranC

Maybe the Italian fans are all watching The Premiership on TV at the expense of their domestic leagues.

Could easily happen you know. Im trying to think of an example

Carcharodon

Savman wrote:

Since when did this become a Serie A Vs Premiership issue? :rolleyes:

iirc the thread is about the falling crowds in Italy not Italy vs everywhere else. I think its a boring league so I dont watch it. Its fairly simple really. I havent forced the Premiership down anyones throat either, I just like a bit of spirit to the game and hate to see bland or defensive teams prosper. Call it what you will.

It becomes an issue when you label a league, that some people follow, as boring and bland(puts me to sleep), of course people will want to defend the league against such statements
There is an arrogance about your posts, "i just like a bit of spirit to the game", it gives off the impression that you feel the Premiership is far superior to the Italian league without even trying to understand why people might like the Italian league and why they find it entertaining.
You are entitled to your opinion but shouldn't belittle other peoples views

Chucky the tree

Savman wrote:

Since when did this become a Serie A Vs Premiership issue? :rolleyes:

iirc the thread is about the falling crowds in Italy not Italy vs everywhere else. I think its a boring league so I dont watch it. Its fairly simple really. I havent forced the Premiership down anyones throat either, I just like a bit of spirit to the game and hate to see bland or defensive teams prosper. Call it what you will.

I didnt, i also posted stats of the other top leagues. I dont understand how you can think its a boring league, when you dont really seem to know much about it. How is it boring?

You say only defensive teams prosper, yet the team on top of Serie A has scored 16 goals, thats only beaten by the time in second, Palermo with 18. Doesnt look like the defensive teams are prospering just yet.

I am not forcing Serie A down anyones throat, you decided to post in a thread about Seire A, i didnt force you too. If your gonna post some stereotype bull****, except someone to pick up on it.

Savman

Carcharodon wrote:

It becomes an issue when you label a league, that some people follow, as boring and bland(puts me to sleep), of course people will want to defend the league against such statements

It's just a view, don't take it so personally.

Carcharodon wrote:

There is an arrogance about your posts, "i just like a bit of spirit to the game", it gives off the impression that you feel the Premiership is far superior to the Italian league without even trying to understand why people might like the Italian league and why they find it entertaining.
You are entitled to your opinion but shouldn't belittle other peoples views

It's not arrogance but I am dismissive of Serie A having tried my best to get into it. Just not my cup of tea, I don't remember putting down anyone's opinion and if I did its not intentional but once again try not to take it so personally. This isn't a helpless kitten you're on about, it's a fully pro league where wages can fetch over €100k a week :eek: - I don't see why anyone should soften up any opinion of such a massive industry especially after it was found to be corrupt to the very core. If you ask me, Serie A deserves to be belittled in light of recent events.

Chucky the tree wrote:

You say only defensive teams prosper, yet the team on top of Serie A has scored 16 goals, thats only beaten by the time in second, Palermo with 18. Doesnt look like the defensive teams are prospering just yet.

I did make allowances in an earlier post that perhaps this year the Italians have changed their approach to how they play and how it won them the world cup. I can only go by what I've seen to date, teams constantly cancelling each other out resulting in 84 minutes of mundane football only for Vieri or Del Piero to stick in a header from a free kick to win it 1-0. Hardly awe inspiring world class football.

I don't have to comment too much on the Italian way of playing, it has not worked for them in 20 years as they have flopped at nearly all of the big tournaments (as have Spain and England it has to be said, but until recently noone proclaimed La Liga or EPL as "the best in the world").

Chucky the tree wrote:

If your gonna post some stereotype bull****, except someone to pick up on it.

Chill out there horse. Calling someone else's view "bull****" is hardly mature now is it? :rolleyes:

Carcharodon

Savman wrote:

It's just a view, don't take it so personally.

It's not arrogance but I am dismissive of Serie A having tried my best to get into it. Just not my cup of tea, I don't remember putting down anyone's opinion and if I did its not intentional but once again try not to take it so personally. This isn't a helpless kitten you're on about, it's a fully pro league where wages can fetch over €100k a week :eek: - I don't see why anyone should soften up any opinion of such a massive industry especially after it was found to be corrupt to the very core. If you ask me, Serie A deserves to be belittled in light of recent events.

Yes but you portay your view in a aroogant manner in my opinion, i am probably wrong but it came across that way to me
There may be corruption in Italy(and every league) but that does not have anything to do with the style of football, you label it as boring yet i could easily label you as being stupid for not appreciating good technical soccer, its all a matter of opinion and taste.
its not just Italy that pay massive wages...

bubthatub

i dont know maybe it is because of all the ,match fixing

MrJoeSoap

bubthatub wrote:

i dont know maybe it is because of all the ,match fixing

It's been happening for 9 seasons now, read the original post.

SectionF

Jivin Turkey wrote:

Indeed.


You felt the need to bring English football into the debate. This thread is about falling attendances in Italian football. If you want to talk about attendances in English football open a new thread on it. I'll happily follow you.


It is a dig. A deserved one IMO. I don't see anyone here going out of their way to put down Irish football but you still pull out the paranoid mantra. Hence my "chip on the shoulder" comment. Your response has proven it.


So the trend is that half the clubs in the English top flight have suffered a drop in season ticket sales. That would mean that half of them have experienced an increase. We are in a no gain/no loss position.

How does this prove falling attendances?

Particularly coupled with the fact that in those grounds where there are fewer season ticket holders, there may still be higher attendances due to the presence of non-season ticket holders.


For a start this link is out of date.

Secondly if nine out of 17 teams suffered falling numbers, eight out of the 17 must of had increased numbers. Working off the assumption that all promoted teams had higher gates that would lead me to conclude that 11 out of the 20 teams in the league had increased numbers or in other words, more clubs had more people in their grounds that those who had less people in their grounds.


Well the date of the peak is immaterial really. And why is this "my league"?

And if "on the slide since" you mean has slipped a massive 4% before rising back to similar levels to peak levels this year, well then I suppose they have been.


If you think that if fewer people are getting out and watching live football is of benefit to it well then I'm glad for you. Being a player myself, I know there is no feeling in the game like playing in front of a big crowd, and I'm sure that is the same at all levels.

Italian football is certainly suffering from it. I don't see how that is a good thing.

• English football is relevant for comparative purposes, because it's worth discussing whether the causes of the decline may be the same as or similar to those in Italy. My thesis is that the decline in both arenas may, at least in part, be to do with the fact that both are suffering the disease of being saturated with money and pure commercialism, which doesn't fit easily with sport.
• 4% decline may not be much in your book, but if any multinational enterprise suffered that you wouldn't hear the end of it. I'm not sure quite how the date of the peak is 'immaterial'. Incidentally, the link you say is out of date relates to last year. Perhaps you have more recent figures you want to share.
• You still haven't clarified whether your attendances claim relates to the Abromovich and Glazer outfits or to the whole league.
• Kudos for playing football. Keep up the good work, and I hope people continue to watch you. But I don't think it makes much difference to a player whether he's doing his stuff in front of 58,000 or 78,000.
• I certainly don't think fewer people watching football is a good thing, and it's simply silly to suggest that. But I do think it would be a good thing if those people spread themselves around a bit more. That way, more people would watch more footballers. Maybe even footballers like you.

Jivin Turkey

SectionF wrote:

• English football is relevant for comparative purposes, because it's worth discussing whether the causes of the decline may be the same as or similar to those in Italy. My thesis is that the decline in both arenas may, at least in part, be to do with the fact that both are suffering the disease of being saturated with money and pure commercialism, which doesn't fit easily with sport.

I'd agree to a point but I would argue that the principal factors behind the decline in attendances in Italy are not nearly as prevelant in the English game (i.e. gross corruption).

SectionF wrote:

[*]4% decline may not be much in your book, but if any multinational enterprise suffered that you wouldn't hear the end of it. I'm not sure quite how the date of the peak is 'immaterial'. Incidentally, the link you say is out of date relates to last year. Perhaps you have more recent figures you want to share.

4% is not a lot. Full stop. Multinational enterprises suffer 4% hits to revenues/profits all the time and we obviously have heard the end of it.

I feel that the date of the peak is immaterial as figures have not deviated significantly from the peak.

SectionF wrote:

[*]You still haven't clarified whether your attendances claim relates to the Abromovich and Glazer outfits or to the whole league.

Yes I did.

Using the figures you submitted I indicated that more clubs in the league as a whole had attendances up over those who had them down.

SectionF wrote:

[*]Kudos for playing football. Keep up the good work, and I hope people continue to watch you. But I don't think it makes much difference to a player whether he's doing his stuff in front of 58,000 or 78,000.

I wouldn't be so sure. Empty seats are empty seats no matter how big the stadium is.

therecklessone

SectionF wrote:

• English football is relevant for comparative purposes, because it's worth discussing whether the causes of the decline may be the same as or similar to those in Italy. My thesis is that the decline in both arenas may, at least in part, be to do with the fact that both are suffering the disease of being saturated with money and pure commercialism, which doesn't fit easily with sport.

I think its interesting that you choose to compare English and Italian football seeking to support your thesis but make no mention of the two league's glaring differences.

1. Serie A is significantly more affordable than the PL. Admission to last night's Milan derby could be had for as little as €14, in comparison the cheapest ticket for the North London derby at WHL would cost one £39 (€58). IIRC, a season ticket for AC Milan could be purchased for as little as €250, not a whole lot more than one at Dalymount Park I imagine...
2. Serie A does not have to constantly change kick off times to suit television. The Guardian link you posted to highlight falling season ticket sales in the PL stated "as many as two-thirds of fans who did not renew their season ticket after last season cited irritation at the fragmented fixture list.
3. Unlike the PL, Serie A does not have all seater stadia
4. Unlike the Serie A, the PL has little or no crowd trouble in or around stadiums due to increased security, CCTV and better policing/security

SectionF

therecklessone wrote:

I think its interesting that you choose to compare English and Italian football seeking to support your thesis but make no mention of the two league's glaring differences.

1. Serie A is significantly more affordable than the PL. Admission to last night's Milan derby could be had for as little as €14, in comparison the cheapest ticket for the North London derby at WHL would cost one £39 (€58). IIRC, a season ticket for AC Milan could be purchased for as little as €250, not a whole lot more than one at Dalymount Park I imagine...
2. Serie A does not have to constantly change kick off times to suit television. The Guardian link you posted to highlight falling season ticket sales in the PL stated "as many as two-thirds of fans who did not renew their season ticket after last season cited irritation at the fragmented fixture list.
3. Unlike the PL, Serie A does not have all seater stadia
4. Unlike the Serie A, the PL has little or no crowd trouble in or around stadiums due to increased security, CCTV and better policing/security

I wasn't suggesting they were conjoined twins. However, they do share some characteristics. Corruption appears to be one of them. Another feature they share is that their teams, or at least some of them, are widely followed by fans in distant countries.

therecklessone

SectionF wrote:

I wasn't suggesting they were conjoined twins. However, they do share some characteristics. Corruption appears to be one of them. Another feature they share is that their teams, or at least some of them, are widely followed by fans in distant countries.

Ah I see, I point out that there are differences between the two leagues, neither can point to common causes of falling attendances and now you're harping on about corruption and throw in another dig at Irish PL fans.

From your own links, up to 2/3rds of those who did not renew their season tickets in the PL did so because of the fragmented schedule for TV. Not a case in Italy. You also failed to pick up on the fall in away attendances in the PL, which in my experience is mainly affected by the same fragmentation of the fixture list (think how hard/easy it is to get from London to Manchester for a 5.15pm game on a Saturday, and how much easier it would be to stay at home and watch on the box)

We took 2000 ST holders to Pompey 1st game last season, to get a ticket one needed almost 200 loyalty points, not far off the amount required for Arsenal and West Ham away that season. This year our 5.15pm kick off against Bolton went on general sale. ManYoo (5.15) went on general sale when it took 130 points last year. Liverpool went on general sale whenthe previous year it sold to ST holders and a few members.

All affected by kick off times.

There was no shortage of applications for MK Dons in the Carling Cup, 8pm kick off but sold out to ST holders with 200+ points. We took 3.6k to Prague in the UEFA Cup, and by all accounts there's 6k going to Leverkusen with only 1200 tickets available, and points will be 300+ for that.

You seem to know as little about Italian football as you do about English football, instead you cover it all with a "thesis" on over-commercialisation. Here's a lesson for you: all professional football is commercially driven, it's just a matter of degrees.

BTW, the first two years of declining attendances at PL games were hugely influenced by the relegation/promotion situation, the first year saw over 30k extra seats lost to the PL (loss of Sunderland/WBA/West Ham, replaced by Pompey, Leicester, Wolves) while the second year saw a loss of just under 22k seats (but just over 22k average attendances) when Wolves, Leicester and Leeds were replaced by Norwich, WBA and Palace.

Its only the season 2005/06 where West Ham, Sunderland and Wigan replaced Palace, Norwich and Southampton, with an increase of c.9k attendances, that suggests other sides are bleeding fans at an alarming rate, yet much of the falling attendance figures for that season can be attributed to falling attendances at Boro, Villa fans staying away under O'Leary and the aformentioned drop in away fans.

SectionF

I'm not sure I get the point of this blunderbus denial. Is every reference to corruption in Serie A and its cousin in the English Premier League an attack on Irish fans of the English league? A case of hyper-sensitivity if ever there were one.
And I don't see why the links I referenced need to point to precisely mirrored reasons for the decline of followings for both leagues. I haven't suggested that. It seem that, being in denial anyway, you are cherry-picking what you want to deny. Anything that doesn't apply to both leagues is, in your doctrine, irrelevant.
As for commercialism, what you say is true, and there's no point in wishing away professionalism in football even if one thought that desirable (which I don't). It's a question of scale and of degree, as you say.
I don't claim to know anything much about either Italian or English football (except I'd rather follow Leeds than Spurs), but I do seem to have more stats in support of my argument than you do.

therecklessone

SectionF wrote:

I'm not sure I get the point of this blunderbus denial. Is every reference to corruption in Serie A and its cousin in the English Premier League an attack on Irish fans of the English league?

Nope.

SectionF wrote:

Another feature they share is that their teams, or at least some of them, are widely followed by fans in distant countries.

That is.

SectionF wrote:

And I don't see why the links I referenced need to point to precisely mirrored reasons for the decline of followings for both leagues.

Well, if you want to suggest that both leagues are suffering falling attendances because of similar factors than you really should be able to back that up. I've pointed out enough to suggest that the both leagues are facing different problems. You seem to want to group them all under the term "commercialism", maybe that suits your agenda. I suggest you group them under the term "football", its much more of a catch-all phrase.

SectionF wrote:

It seem that, being in denial anyway, you are cherry-picking what you want to deny. Anything that doesn't apply to both leagues is, in your doctrine, irrelevant.

I'm in denial? Read my last post again, the one where I mentioned the rise in seat numbers and attendances from the three promoted clubs last year, yet acknowledged that average PL atendances had fallen. How am I denying anything?

I'm simply debunking the attempts you're making to link the PL and Serie A in the global consumerist conspiracy (or whatever it is you real football fans call it these days). Reading back over the OP's quoted article, the only unifying factor I can find is mention of corruption (and in the English game, the corruption so far has been in relation to transfer dealings rather than in match-fixing attempts). I do believe the OP's question was what factors have led to these declines in attendances, it is obvious to me that the factors differ across the leagues.

SectionF

Saying that a feature the two leagues share is that their teams, or at least some of them, are widely followed by fans in distant countries is an attack on English PL fans in Ireland? How so, precisely?
I've posted here before that I think it's natural that Irish people followed English clubs (but that that need not, and often doesn't, exclude supporting an Irish one).
As for my thesis on the common factors between Italy and England, I think if you look back you will find I said it would be interesting to explore the issues of falling attendances as a response to the money saturation of the game. I don't think there's a 'myth' to debunk there. If you look at the whole FC United, AFC Wimbledon and Supporters Direct movement, there's a growing feeling of alienation among real football supporters from the corporate (no conspiracy required) invasion of football.
Who owns Spurs these days anyway?

Seaneh

I reckin the main reason those figures are so low is because three of the countries biggest teams are playing in siere B.

Napoli, Genoa and Juventus all have massive support, and with thier travling fans not going to the likes of verona, calgari or turin (torino) I'm not supprised by the drop.

also remember that juventus have (officially) 10milllion+ fans in italy, and the majority of them live outside turin, so a lot of clubs only ever filled thier stadia when juve came to town.

Also I think if you took Man UTd, Newcastle and Aston Villa (about the same support base and Juve/napoli/genoa) out of the premiership and replaced them with Lutton, Stoke and Preston North end, I'd say there would the the same trend, premiership gates would dive and chapionship gates would rocket.

Infact, the only reason champion ship gates are up is because of teams like brum, leeds and sheffield wednessday all being there this season.

thebaz

I remember growing up watching Italian footy on C4 , back in the late eighties and early ninties , and Seria A without doubt was the best league in the world , the originators of sexy football --
Napoli and Maradonna
The AC Milan of the late 80s - Gullit , Van Basten, Rijkaard - possibly one of the greatest teams of all time
Lazio and Gazza
The Inter team - with Klinsman, Mathaus
Roma - with Cannigia

and gradually its popularity just declined , first eclipsed by the Spanish league with Real and Galacticos, and now the Premiership.
Italian football can be extremly negative , get the goal , and then close shop -- The Premiership with bad defending, makes for more exciting football, and more goals, in this multi media age .