Religion Homework?

Zynks

My 7 year old arrived home today from school with religion homework. He had to read some sort of prayer. I am surprised that at this point when the credibility of the church is so low and Ireland is becoming a multi-cultural society, that religion can be imposed in such a way.

I had a chat with my son and explained to him about different religions and paganism, and said that whatever he decides to believe in it is his choice and no one elses. I also told him he can tell his teachers about that, and that I said he has no obligation of praying or anything related to it unless he decides to do so.

I wonder what kind of reaction he will get in school if he decides not to pray. He knows how to stand his ground in a rational way, but I am not sure about the others... any opinions?

Nevyn

I would suggest that you go and have a talk with his teacher about it, find out what the school/class policy is.

phog

Did you know before selecting this school that religion would be a subject - if so then how can you describe it as being imposed? If you intended that your child was not to participate in religion in the school why didn't you meet the head teacher on enrolment and explain this rather than having a 7 yo batting for himself now? I think it's a terrible injustice on the child.
At this stage I think you should meet the head or class teacher and request your child is excused during religion, in our local school this is usually done by the pupil leaving their class and attending another (senior or junior) during religion classes.

Zynks

Thaedydal wrote:

I would suggest that you go and have a talk with his teacher about it, find out what the school/class policy is.

Good point. I will follow up on it. In any case, religion is an issue down to human rights level as far as I can see. As far as I know, Ireland signed this declaration. Here are some excerpts:

Article 18- Universal Declaration of Human Rights
Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance

Article 21 - Universal Declaration of Human Rights
... (2) Everyone has the right of equal access to public service in his country.
....

Article 26.
(1) Everyone has the right to education. Education shall be free, at least in the elementary and fundamental stages.

If Ireland as a state supports the declaration and chooses to provide the free education by funding "public" schools run by non-public organisations, these schools should inherit the obligations and commitments.

Zynks

phog wrote:

Did you know before selecting this school that religion would be a subject - if so then how can you describe it as being imposed?

Selecting the school? We didn't have many choices. Don't get me wrong, I actually like the school a lot, but do you think I have to give up on my principles to secure the place?

Of course the subject is imposed. So are maths, English, Irish and so on. I only have an issue with religion. This should be optional. If my son decides he wants it, I support him. If he decides it's not for him I will also back him. Wouldn't you?

phog wrote:

If you intended that your child was not to participate in religion in the school why didn't you meet the head teacher on enrolment and explain this rather than having a 7 yo batting for himself now? I think it's a terrible injustice on the child.

I respect your opinion, but I don't totally agree. I will do my part talking to the teacher and principle, but ultimately the decision is his, and I want him to take ownership of that decision.

phog wrote:

At this stage I think you should meet the head or class teacher and request your child is excused during religion, in our local school this is usually done by the pupil leaving their class and attending another (senior or junior) during religion classes.

I will if he decides he doesn't want it. He said he will think about it.

ArthurDent

Zynks wrote:

My 7 year old arrived home today from school with religion homework. He had to read some sort of prayer. I am surprised that at this point when the credibility of the church is so low and Ireland is becoming a multi-cultural society, that religion can be imposed in such a way.

I had a chat with my son and explained to him about different religions and paganism, and said that whatever he decides to believe in it is his choice and no one elses. I also told him he can tell his teachers about that, and that I said he has no obligation of praying or anything related to it unless he decides to do so.

I wonder what kind of reaction he will get in school if he decides not to pray. He knows how to stand his ground in a rational way, but I am not sure about the others... any opinions?

Zynks did you not know the ethos of the school before your son started? If you are not of the denomination of the school - did you not consider that this would be an issue? Has your child participated in religion up until now and why is it a problem now but not before now?
Legally you have a right to withdraw your child from religious instruction ( or anything else that is against your morasls/ethos/beliefs) BUT the school is not obliged to provide supervision for your child if you withdraw them from this class and you could be asked to supervise him yourself.
IMO even if you chose to withdraw him from this class it is very difficult to remove him from every aspect of denominational instruction - prayers, asrtwork/music related to religion - especially in a year that has sacrament preparation.

Honestly I think you are being a bit unfair on your kid if you haven't already discussed all these issues with teachers/principals - I certainly wouldn't leave my 7 year old to explain all of this himself to other kids/teacher.

qwertplaywert

i got told off for not praying a couple o times in secondery...im 14
im ateiest and have told teeachers,most tell me to shut up and stop ''being cheeky''

Zynks

Arthur, overall you are correct, but the situation is wrong. The vast majority of schools in Ireland are funded by the state (our tax money) and run by the "preferred" religious organisations. I can deal with that, but the effective coercion of defenseless kids into adopting one or another religion is fundamentally wrong. Most parents don't have the luxury of choosing a school (at least we didn't, but that is another story), and even when they do, it can be at a high price and maybe not the best for the kid, except for the approach to religion.

iguana

A huge amount of schools in Ireland are built on land owned by the Catholic Church. Due to this the local bishops have a strong level of control over schools. A friend of mine worked in a Diocesan office a few years back and all teaching appointments in schools on their land can be vetoed by their office.

There are few non/multi-denominational schools in Ireland, and those usually have long waiting lists.

Zynks

qwertplaywert wrote:

i got told off for not praying a couple o times in secondery...im 14
im ateiest and have told teeachers,most tell me to shut up and stop ''being cheeky''

Thanks for sharing your story.
In my view it is your right to choose to be part of it or not, and it is important that you stand by your decision. You have the right of not being bullied or coerced to join.
On the other hand, you must also respect their choices.

Here is a line I really like:

To believe in God or in a guiding force because someone tells you to is the height of stupidity. We are given senses to receive our information within. With our own eyes we see, and with our own skin we feel. With our intelligence, it is intended that we understand. But each person must puzzle it out for himself or herself.
Sophy Burnham

Zynks

iguana wrote:

A huge amount of schools in Ireland are built on land owned by the Catholic Church. Due to this the local bishops have a strong level of control over schools. A friend of mine worked in a Diocesan office a few years back and all teaching appointments in schools on their land can be vetoed by their office.

There are few non/multi-denominational schools in Ireland, and those usually have long waiting lists.

Thanks Iguana,
Yes, I was aware of the control of the church through land ownership. There was a case a few years back of a group somewhere is Co. Galway that wanted access to an abandoned school so they could teach their children without religious ties - and also because there was no school places available in the region. Guess what? The Dept. of Education blocked it. Not sure how that ended.

Discussing school land ownership makes me think of the commotion in the Dail this week regarding the church only paying for 10% of the child abuse compensation, and Bertie saying the religious orders could not afford anything else. Maybe €400 million in school land transferred to the state could be a good start!

BrianCalgary

When you get right down to it the parents are ultimately responsible for the education of their children. I teach Sunday School and it bothers me that some parents rely on me for their kids religion education.

On top of that our kids have to learn respect. Why not have him participate in the religion class, he'll learn all about that religion so he can make an informed choice when he is older (I believe this applies to all religions BTW), remain silent during prayer as a sign of respect for the believers around him.

Zynks

BrianCalgary wrote:

When you get right down to it the parents are ultimately responsible for the education of their children.

Couldn't agree more.

BrianCalgary wrote:

I teach Sunday School and it bothers me that some parents rely on me for their kids religion education.

Sorry Brian, but this reminds me of the football training where I take my eldest kid. Normally there are something like 100 kids training and maybe 25 parents watching. The trainer started asking parents if they think he is running a creche. I guess this laziness and lack of parenting preparation is not exclusive to sports...

On top of that our kids have to learn respect. Why not have him participate in the religion class, he'll learn all about that religion so he can make an informed choice when he is older (I believe this applies to all religions BTW), remain silent during prayer as a sign of respect for the believers around him.

About respect yes, definitely. I want my children to respect all religions, sexual inclination, cultural and religious origins and differing opinions. But I also want them to stand up for what they decide to believe in and be respected for that.
I actually want my kid exposed to religionS (upper case S is intentional), but on an informative way, without coercion or sense of exclusion if he decides it is not for him.
At an early age they take things in much easier than adults, but also have less ability to judge and decide. Imposed religion in an environment that is responsible for their academic education is just wrong.
If they make it voluntary and my son signs up, great (and there is a chance that he would). Otherwise, no!

Fast_Mover

You do have a right to withdraw your child from R.E enshirned in law. Rule 69 of National Schools= No pupil shall recieve, or be present at, Religious Instruction of which his parents or guardian dissapprove.

But im wondering if you have a problem with your child reading a prayer for homework are you going to allow him make his Communion/Confirmation? Have you thought about what your child is going to do/feel when all the rest are off practicing for it/getting excited about their day?

An Educate Together school is your answer=no one particular religion, culture or social identity may be promoted or favoured.

Zynks

Fast_Mover wrote:

But im wondering if you have a problem with your child reading a prayer for homework are you going to allow him make his Communion/Confirmation?

My point is quite simple, really:

Religion homework = forced and therefore wrong

Communion/confirmation = voluntary and therefore it is my son's decision

I am defending my son's right to decide by himself how he wants to handle his relationship with god, once and if he decides that there is one. And this decision should be made without any kind of pressure from anyone.
If I remove him from the class, before he makes his own decision I will be putting him on an awkward position and reacting to intollerance with intollerance. This is not the answer.

MrJoeSoap

BrianCalgary wrote:

Why not have him participate in the religion class, he'll learn all about that religion so he can make an informed choice when he is older (I believe this applies to all religions BTW), remain silent during prayer as a sign of respect for the believers around him.

I agree with your sentiments in principle, but having only recently left the Irish education system I see it as massively one-sided and completely aimed towards Christianity, especially Primary School. We had to stand and say prayers at the start and end of every school day, and at lunchtime. We had numerous visits from the local priest as well etc...

Secondary school was a bit more open, but still only barely covered the major religions in 5th and 6th year, and I don't remember ever hearing about Atheism. I had a brief look in my younger brothers religion book a while back and the secion on Atheism is fairly diabolical by any standards, but I suppose thats all covered in the science books .

I'd love to know what the criteria is by which they decide how many pages of the religion book each belief actually gets.

ArthurDent

BrianCalgary wrote:

When you get right down to it the parents are ultimately responsible for the education of their children. I teach Sunday School and it bothers me that some parents rely on me for their kids religion education.

On top of that our kids have to learn respect. Why not have him participate in the religion class, he'll learn all about that religion so he can make an informed choice when he is older (I believe this applies to all religions BTW), remain silent during prayer as a sign of respect for the believers around him.

Brian
I absolutely agree with you that parents are responsible for religious and other education - I think in Ireland we have had a very laissez faire attitude to it, quite happy to accept the education provided freely by the catholic church ( when no other free education was available) but now that demographics have changed and/or people are no longer practising catholics we are surprised that one of two things happen - either our child is coming home from school being taught something we may not approve of (ie religious instruction) or that more and more we are being asked to participate in their religious instruction - more and more roles for parents in sacrament preparation. There is a fundamental disconnect in the type of education system many parents want for their children and the one we've inherited, but most people don't educate themselves as to what it can mean and then are frustrated, but unwilling to do anything about it. I don't send my kids to a denominational school - they go to an ET school - one I helped to set up - precisely for the reasons descriobed by OP, their religious instruction is my responsibility and not the school's. I want a school to provide information on different faith systems, but it is my and my husbands responsibility (and our church's)to instruct our kids in their faith. I feel sorry for deeply committed catholics or COI or muslim or whatever parents/teachers in schools trying to keep their ethos alive when so many of the parents and children/parents do not believe in their ethos. In an ideal world (or Ireland anyway) - there would be faith-basaed schools that you could send your child to if deeply committed to that particular faith (state funded maybe yes/maybe no) and very many more multi / non-denominational state-funded schools that do not provide religious instruction during school hours, but do provide information on different religions.
FYI ET have recently announced that the country needs 400 multidenominational schools to ensure access to those parents that chose such an education for their children.
http://www.educatetogether.ie/pdf_downloads/Business%20Plan_20061025_Exec_Summ.pdf

mountainyman

Zynks wrote:

Arthur, overall you are correct, but the situation is wrong.

Well why not get your 7 year old to fight that battle. Don't you do it, let him do it:rolleyes:
We have a thirteen page discussion about this running at the moment by the way.

MM

phog

Zynks wrote:

My point is quite simple, really:

Religion homework = forced and therefore wrong

Communion/confirmation = voluntary and therefore it is my son's decision

I am defending my son's right to decide by himself how he wants to handle his relationship with god, once and if he decides that there is one. And this decision should be made without any kind of pressure from anyone.
If I remove him from the class, before he makes his own decision I will be putting him on an awkward position and reacting to intollerance with intollerance. This is not the answer.

If you allow your son to participate in the religion class then how can you object to him getting homework? If your child was a foreign national then Irish may be exempt, would withdrawing him from class be putting him in an awkward position?

originally Posted by Zynks
Of course the subject is imposed. So are maths, English, Irish and so on. I only have an issue with religion. This should be optional. If my son decides he wants it, I support him. If he decides it's not for him I will also back him. Wouldn't you?

Yes, but you seem to want him to suck it and see but you don't want him coming home with religous homework, is it ok for him to have maths, english or irish homework - if this is the case you don't really have an argument about it.
Anyway is 7 too young to be making this decision? At what point did you decide that your child's religion was to be chosen by himself?

Zynks

phog wrote:

Yes, but you seem to want him to suck it and see but you don't want him coming home with religious homework, is it ok for him to have maths, english or irish homework - if this is the case you don't really have an argument about it.

Study of maths, science, languages is universally recognised as key to a child's intellectual development, Religion is not. Some people will even argue that historically religion has been a comforting alternative to recognising we don't have all the answers and doing something about it (the should-be-defunct papal infallibility seems to back that theory).
But, in any case, what benefit can a homework based on prayers bring to a child's development, intellectually or spiritually? Is it that somebody thinks that by forcing kids to prey at home that the chances of successful "recruitment" will improve?

phog wrote:

Anyway is 7 too young to be making this decision? At what point did you decide that your child's religion was to be chosen by himself?

No, I don't think 7 is too young. If a child feels comfortable with what s/he sees, then the child can make a decision. But if I am wrong, and a child is too young to decide, isn't it fundamentally wrong to push religion down their throat?
About the stage at which I decided to "delegate" these decision, actually before my first child was born I made a promise that I would respect my children as individuals and support any decisions they made or inclinations they had regarding religion, sexuality and career. So, I am just following up on that.
While respecting their individuality in such a way, I also do my best to provide them with advice, guidance and protection. And it is in the matter of protection that I feel I must protect them from having their religious beliefs being artificially moulded in such an unfair way.
Let me clarify this again, it is not that I don't want my child to be a catholic, I just don't want him to be forced to become one.

robindch

> And this decision should be made without any kind of pressure from anyone.

Good on you.

> If I remove him from the class, before he makes his own decision I will be
> putting him on an awkward position and reacting to intollerance with
> intollerance. This is not the answer.

Unfortunately, you have come a cropper on one of religion's clever little ankle-traps and there's no easy way to avoid organized religion's use of social pressure to make people conform. Take your kid out of that class, and will inevitably feel left out which is awful for a child. Leave your kid in, and they get indoctrinated against your will.

Personally, I'd ask around some of the parents in your kid's class -- a bit of mutual support will go a long way in this. If you can get more than one or two who'd also like to get their kids out of this class or get the teaching method or the teacher changed, then it should be easy to approach the principal as a group and have the request honored, and your kid won't feel left out either.

> Is it that somebody thinks that by forcing kids to prey at home that the
> chances of successful "recruitment" will improve?

Yes. That's why religions control so many schools and spend so much time on outreach and youth programs of one kind or another. It's all about recruitment.

phog

Zynks wrote:

Study of maths, science, languages is universally recognised as key to a child's intellectual development, Religion is not. Some people will even argue that historically religion has been a comforting alternative to recognising we don't have all the answers and doing something about it (the should-be-defunct papal infallibility seems to back that theory).
But, in any case, what benefit can a homework based on prayers bring to a child's development, intellectually or spiritually? Is it that somebody thinks that by forcing kids to prey at home that the chances of successful "recruitment" will improve?


No, I don't think 7 is too young. If a child feels comfortable with what s/he sees, then the child can make a decision. But if I am wrong, and a child is too young to decide, isn't it fundamentally wrong to push religion down their throat?
About the stage at which I decided to "delegate" these decision, actually before my first child was born I made a promise that I would respect my children as individuals and support any decisions they made or inclinations they had regarding religion, sexuality and career. So, I am just following up on that.
While respecting their individuality in such a way, I also do my best to provide them with advice, guidance and protection. And it is in the matter of protection that I feel I must protect them from having their religious beliefs being artificially moulded in such an unfair way.
Let me clarify this again, it is not that I don't want my child to be a catholic, I just don't want him to be forced to become one.

You continuly use the word "force" who's forcing? has you child been reprimanded for not doing his homework? I think you have a problem with relegion and would like your son to conform to your view but you also want the child to believe that it was his decision.
I live in a small village (1 shop, 1 pub, 1 butcher, 1 school and 1 church) both my kids attended the local school and both had friends that were excused from religion at the request of their parents - I don't recall either my kids or their kids ever feeling awkward or uncared for about this practice.
You need to make a decision on whether you want your child to participate or not - if yes then how can you complain about homework, if not (and in you're case I think this might be the right option) then meet the teacher and request alternative classes during religion.

up for anything

Zynks wrote:

My point is quite simple, really:

Religion homework = forced and therefore wrong

Communion/confirmation = voluntary and therefore it is my son's decision

At the age of seven your child is already receiving religious instruction geared towards First Communion. If he makes the decision to receive his First Communion he will have to do the homework. If he makes this decision a couple of weeks before the Communion it'll be too late to do the homework and he'll have to wait a year before he can make it.

TempestSabre

Zynks wrote:

My 7 year old arrived home today from school with religion homework. He had to read some sort of prayer. I am surprised that at this point when the credibility of the church is so low and Ireland is becoming a multi-cultural society, that religion can be imposed in such a way.

...

I wonder what kind of reaction he will get in school if he decides not to pray. He knows how to stand his ground in a rational way, but I am not sure about the others... any opinions?

I guess they'll wonder how a parent can leave their child to resolve an issue that the parent such have done. Probably feel sorry for him, and be annoyed that you never told them YOU didn't want him to have religious instruction.

How can you not know that a religious school is going to teach religion at some point. The schools probably named after a saint.

Its a free country, and there are schools that don't teach it. If you believe that strongly about avoid religion then living in a predominately RC country is a bit shortsighted isn't it.

Zynks

TempestSabre wrote:

I guess they'll wonder how a parent can leave their child to resolve an issue that the parent such have done. Probably feel sorry for him, and be annoyed that you never told them YOU didn't want him to have religious instruction.

Maybe I am not making myself clear enough, or maybe it just is too hard to believe that a parent actually values his child's individuality enough to give him the choice and protect his right to decide his religious life.
Maybe you will consider believing me if I tell you that in my early years I lived in a country run by a military dictatorship that killed and tortured people that dared to think differently to them. Victims of this government included parents of kids in my classroom, and even a friend of mine when I was a teenager. The one thing that I learned is that your rights to privacy and individuality are precious and should be non-negotiable. Now, do you think I give a damn about what the teachers will think about it?

TempestSabre wrote:

How can you not know that a religious school is going to teach religion at some point. The schools probably named after a saint.

Your point being....?

TempestSabre wrote:

If you believe that strongly about avoid religion then living in a predominately RC country is a bit shortsighted isn't it.

Since the church has a virtual monopoly on education in Ireland (and funded with tax payers money), either it is your views that are characterised by shortsightedness or they are an example of inflexibility and intolerance. I would expect a comment like that in an Islamic fundamentalist nation, but not in Ireland in 2006.

PS, are you assuming I am not Irish by any chance?

TempestSabre

YOU asked for opinions. its not about views its about pure logic. Doesn't matter if you are from Mars. Thats not the issue. Lets make it simple.

YOU sent your child to a religious school were religion is taught. Therefore You can't be surprised that its being taught.

You created this situation not the school and not the child. But you expect the child and school to sort it out.

Its like sending your kid into a sweet shop and complaining when he comes home with sweets. :rolleyes:

Zynks

TempestSabre wrote:

YOU asked for opinions. its not about views its about pure logic. Doesn't matter if you are from Mars.

At least that's a change of tone. Yes, I asked for opinions about how I could expect others to react if my son decided he didn't want to prey or was not interested in religion as taught in his school. I acknowledge your views and they confirm my suspicion of what to expect.

TempestSabre wrote:

YOU sent your child to a religious school were religion is taught. Therefore You can't be surprised that its being taught.

What's the story with the uppercase "YOU" thing?
Anyhow, let's agree to disagree. In my view religion is not a subject, it is a personal choice - which schools can help develop once the choice is made. If you have kids, I really hope you allow them to see it as personal choice.

TempestSabre wrote:

You created this situation not the school and not the child. But you expect the child and school to sort it out.

I never said I would not get involved. I said that if he felt that he was being coerced to do anything related to religion that he could tell them that I said he has no obligation to do it.
Interestingly enough, the chat was quite similar to the one I had with him about bullying...

TempestSabre wrote:

Its like sending your kid into a sweet shop and complaining when he comes home with sweets. :rolleyes:

Not really, if I send my kid to a sweet shop he knows he can choose which sweets he wants.
He understands the importance of his education and takes it seriously and it is a worrying that religion is thrown into the same package in such a way.

I acknowledge your views and I think we will just have to agree to disagree. If consensus was so easy to reach, boards.ie would be blank.

robindch

> YOU sent your child to a religious school were religion is taught. Therefore You
> can't be surprised that its being taught.

Perhaps it's been a while since you were at school and you may have forgotten what it's like, but generally in Ireland, it is close to impossible to get kids into a school which is not viewed by one religious outfit or another as a recruiting ground for the next generation of indoctrinated humans.

TempestSabre

Zynks wrote:

At least that's a change of tone. Yes, I asked for opinions about how I could expect others to react if my son decided he didn't want to prey or was not interested in religion as taught in his school. I acknowledge your views and they confirm my suspicion of what to expect.

Any change of tone is in your imagination.

Zynks wrote:

What's the story with the uppercase "YOU" thing?
Anyhow, let's agree to disagree. In my view religion is not a subject, it is a personal choice - which schools can help develop once the choice is made. If you have kids, I really hope you allow them to see it as personal choice.

Its called emphasis.

Theres no logic to what you are saying. If you don't want the kid to have religious education then don't send them to a school with religious education. or at the very least let them know of your wishes. You've done never. Its either laziness on your part or you want to cause conflict for some reason.

Zynks wrote:

I never said I would not get involved. I said that if he felt that he was being coerced to do anything related to religion that he could tell them that I said he has no obligation to do it. Interestingly enough, the chat was quite similar to the one I had with him about bullying...

You have created this situation, and now you are going to circumvent the authority of the teachers and school by not dealing with the issue in this way. Thats just pathetic IMO.

Zynks wrote:

Not really, if I send my kid to a sweet shop he knows he can choose which sweets he wants.He understands the importance of his education and takes it seriously and it is a worrying that religion is thrown into the same package in such a way.

Obviously you don't understand the analogy. Forget it.

If you were really worried, you should have made arrangments with the school before now or chosen a different school.

Zynks wrote:

I acknowledge your views and I think we will just have to agree to disagree. If consensus was so easy to reach, boards.ie would be blank.

I don't what there is to debate. Your inaction has brought you and your child to this point. Nothing else. Its not like teaching religion was a sudden unpredictable change of policy. You've had time to deal with this and you simply haven't.

TempestSabre

robindch wrote:

> YOU sent your child to a religious school were religion is taught. Therefore You
> can't be surprised that its being taught.

Perhaps it's been a while since you were at school and you may have forgotten what it's like, but generally in Ireland, it is close to impossible to get kids into a school which is not viewed by one religious outfit or another as a recruiting ground for the next generation of indoctrinated humans.

Certainly its impossible if you don't try in the first place. My friends moved back to Ireland from another country and got their kids into a non religious school. its not the nearest school to them and it requires some effort to get them there and collected.

But if you send your kids to the local parish school, you can't be SURPRISED when religion is being taught? Thats nonsense.

robindch wrote:

Don't assume that the desire to get into local schools is about what is 'handy'. It is often about mixing with immediate neighbours, about avoiding the need for adding one more car-based school run onto the currently creaking traffic infrastructure, about avoid the need to have 2 cars in a family etc

Thats just excuses. No ones needs two cars, and people can still mix with immediate neighbours if they make an effort to do so. You makle your own choices, and live with them.

robindch

> Certainly its impossible if you don't try in the first place.

I notice that you haven't addressed the point that I was making: that there are far, far more religious schools in this country, than there are non-religious ones, and that the non-religious ones are way over-subscribed.

(your second reply was made to a post which wasn't mine )