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Israel/Hezbollah/war crimes etc
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Frederico wrote:Well thankgod the Israeli's are on 'our side', because if they weren't the Bush administration would have them top of the axis of evil hitlist instead of rushing them cluster bombs.
I thought Israel was only on Isreal's side
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Nope. Never said that. I tend to look at Palestinian or Hezbollah issues more than I'll look at Israeli infractions. Although, usually I'll end up examining Israeli actions simply in response to the posts like the above about Israel, which are quite frequent.
Rather, it was his use of "double-standards". He talks about double standards, highlighting Israeli infractions, yet no mention is made of any other factors. e.g. Israel is in the wrong automatically without looking to the actions of their own opponents (i.e. Hezbollah) in Lebanon, nor the UN's failure to enforce the ceasefire agreement. Same again, in Palestine. Israel is in the wrong, without looking to Palestinian issues/actions.
As for resolutions, all parties are just as bad as each other in following them. However, many posters seem to take the viewpoint whereby its awful that Israel ignores resolutions, and yet its ok to ignore Palestinian or Lebanese failures to follow them. Excuses are always allowed in their cases.
But I will admit that I'm hardly balanced in my own viewpoints. I do tend to favour the Israeli position, unless I'm convinced otherwise. (which has happened a few times
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Deleted User wrote:Nope. Never said that. I tend to look at Palestinian or Hezbollah issues more than I'll look at Israeli infractions. Although, usually I'll end up examining Israeli actions simply in response to the posts like the above about Israel, which are quite frequent.
Rather, it was his use of "double-standards". He talks about double standards, highlighting Israeli infractions, yet no mention is made of any other factors. e.g. Israel is in the wrong automatically without looking to the actions of their own opponents (i.e. Hezbollah) in Lebanon, nor the UN's failure to enforce the ceasefire agreement. Same again, in Palestine. Israel is in the wrong, without looking to Palestinian issues/actions.
As for resolutions, all parties are just as bad as each other in following them. However, many posters seem to take the viewpoint whereby its awful that Israel ignores resolutions, and yet its ok to ignore Palestinian or Lebanese failures to follow them. Excuses are always allowed in their cases.
But I will admit that I'm hardly balanced in my own viewpoints. I do tend to favour the Israeli position, unless I'm convinced otherwise. (which has happened a few times )
How many Israeli civilians killed these last 2 weeks? had their houses demolished? been terrorised by military jets? been blown up by cluster bombs? I listened to the radio as an Irish teacher described her visit to Palestinian terrority this summer as pure hell, practically every day and night jets flying low causing sonic booms, families been thrown out of their apartments, their houses being demolished, important public facilities being demolished, random civilians being shot, killed, injured, a constant terror and fear that everyone lived under...
How do we the West react to this situation? well its quite simple to judge by our actions, we rush bombs to Israel, we fund them, we cut funding to Hamas, we decry terrorism, etc. We break down violence into two categories, justify our 'own', demonise 'theirs'. Double standards.
3 Israeli civilians killed by suicide bomb in Tel Aviv - will be first on most Western media news
3 Palestinian civilians killed by Israeli military strike on 'militant' - will probably get barely a mention
Double standards.
If I wanted to kill innocent Palestinian civilians because of some past hate, how would I do it? join the Israeli airforce, bomb a house. Consequences for myself? none.0 -
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Edit: Err, the nick is Klaz btw.FYI wrote:Completely false Klas. Israel's actions are always labeled as a response to some Palestinian attack.
wrong? Hardly. Israeli Media may label it as being a response to palestinian actions, but European press is very quick to label it as being more oppression of the Palestinian people. If you look at the media at large there is very much a spin machine in operation whereby the Palestinians because they're weaker, are given the moral highground, and israel is proposed as the aggressor.The war in Lebanon for example, about 1000 civilians killed, and all in response to a kidnapping, something Israel does daily.
Daily? Maybe once a week, perhaps? Or once a month? Guess it varies... And i suppose the people that are arrested/kidnapped are never guilty of what the Israeli's are taking them for?
I'm not arguing that Israel is innocent of crimes. They have kidnapped hundreds of people over the years, many of whom have not been charged, or released. Thats wrong in itself. But your stance seems to suggest that Israel is never right in kidnapping people, regardless of their reasons.Then theres the latest 'incursions' into Gaza, all a response to a kidnapping, same thing.
Same thing? I find this funny. Rockets are fired from Gaza into Israel on almost a daily basis, but that doesn't get any limelight in the media. Attacks made by palestinian fighters on Israeli troops, and civilians occurs quite often, but that doesn't get all that much limelight. However, when Israel responds to these attacks, suddenly the media sit up and take notice.
The operations in Gaza are in response to the kidnapping and the recent attacks made by Palestinian forces in that area. Ya, same thing.0 -
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Frederico wrote:I am talking about the West's reaction to Israeli actions.
Simply put, i dont believe they care. After all, they don't see an end to the violence in the m.east.So why do you think these people are so FOR the Palestinians and so AGAINST the Israelis.. even when they go down there and see the situation for themselves?
I don't know. But you were refering to "Tiresome double standards as usual". They're willing to act as shields to protect Palestinian lives, but not Israeli lives? Double standards, despite the anti-war/pro-peace attitude they put forward.Palestinians are reacting, why did the first intifada happen? they were being treated like absolute crap and they exploded, the whole place did.
Reacting to more freedoms, by increasing the fighting? Yup, that makes sense.We hear all about Israeli good intentions, we're indoctrinated with it, they just tell us a load of lies and we think oh, they want peace they are trying to do something, but they aren't. We don't experience the violence, the Palestinian people do, every day, 300 killed since that soldier was taken, god knows how many Palestinians thrown into prison without trial, thats what they see. Thats what they experience.
Well its nice to see that you've avoided the indocrination that the rest of us have received. And yes, thats what they experience. And yes, we don't experience the Israeli side of being a target either. I guess thats why your sympathies hold with the Palestinians, and mine tend to hold with Israeli's.Then answer me this, why wasn't all this done years ago? Why has it taken the Israeli's so long to pull out of any of the territories?
Then? Perhaps answer my own question first, and then i'll answer yours?Can we stop the fake politics for a second, the Israelis are desperate for land, and if the Palestinians were peaceful, bent over and took their occupation like good little whelps, they'd still be being treated like crap by the Israelis.
When have the Palestinians ever bent over and taken the occupation>? The violence has continued despite Israeli withdrawals.... and in many cases actually increased. Its more like the Palestinian groups don't want the Israeli's to actually leave.A reduction in attacks? lets use the Israeli phrases here, be careful.. the Palestinians are 'responding' to Israeli aggression, they are 'striking a blow' at the IDF to reduce its power, they are 'defending' themselves.
Both the PA and Hamas promised reductions in attacks made upon Israel for the concessions that Israel has made over the years. Thats the reduction in attacks that I'm talking about. They're defending themselves against an enemy that slowly pulling itself out of their territory. Don't you for the moment think, that their attacks on Israeli forces, whether they be in Israeli territrory or Palestinian, just encourages the Israeli's to dig in?When is the last suicide attack by a Palestinian in Israel?.. I garuntee if it was inside Israel against civilians, it was basically on just about every Western media outlet in the world.
THREE HUNDRED dead since that soldier was taken..
Very few people know that, even people who watch the news avidly will know that, but by god if THREE HUNDRED israeli's were dead we'd know.
So... you can't be bothered to acknowledge the article above?
yes, there's been three hundred killed since the soldier was taken. How many were members of paramilitary groups? How many were killed by other Palestinians during their little civil war?
I'm not denying that Israeli's have killed alot of Palestinians over the years, and especially over the last few months. I'm not seeking to reduce that impact. I'm not seeking to dimish Israel's responsibility in killing innocents. I'm seeking an acknowledgement of Palestinian responsibility for the situation, by people like yourself. But I guess i'll have to wait quite a while for that.Or you can be any Palestinian civilian, probably lost several relatives, friends to Israelis. You are subjected to checkpoints everywhere by your occupiers. You can't sleep from the constant sonic booms. Your house could be demolished any second. You could be killed in any number of ways, sniper, missile, bomb, etc. Some soldiers have it so easy.
Or you could be a soldier thats had his whole extended family killed in some suicide bombing. You're forced to be constantly alert, for fear of some maniac that decides to blow some Israeli family up. You walk the streets and never see your people at peace, because they always have to have their guard up. You could be stabbed in the dark, your vehicle blown up, mobbed in the street, etc. Aye, thats all so easy.
Stop fooling yourself. Israel isn't a paradise. Soldiers don't have it easy. They face a disguised enemy that they have to experience on duty, and when they're off duty? They still face that same enemy, and have to trust that your fellow soldiers will prevent their attacks on your people. This is a war, where Palestinians have shed alot of Israeli blood, and have no compunction doing so.
We could go around and around in circles citing examples. Both peoples are at war with each other, and neither side gets away scot free. Except perhaps the pilots you mentioned originally, except they have to land sometime and go back to experiencing their lives under constant threat of attack.How about they give those jobs to Palestinians then, they are the ones suffering, there are hundreds of thousands of Palestinians who are in constant REAL fear all day long, their refugee camps get raided, water gets cut off, if you don't wanna be a little Israeli ambulance driver.. you can QUIT. Its pretty hard as a Palestinian when you have no money, no job and under constant threat of violence from your oppressors heh.
How about the palestinians do something for a change? How about ceasing th e violence? How about their government rejecting their mandate to destroy Israel? How about their government/hamas seeking to spend their money and the aid they receive on food & medicines as opposed to weapons?
But thats, of course, not acceptable. Its not as if they need to show Israel that Palestinians would keep their promises if they did indeed fully withdraw. Its all or nothing.I just thought the little bit about paying a boy to put on a bomb was hilarious, these are human beings with thoughts, what drove them to this hate. Whats the latest excuse.. oh yeah religion.
"On March 24, 2004, one week after capturing a bomb in the bag of 12-year-old Abdullah Quran, Hussam Abdo, a 16-year-old Palestinian (who initially claimed he was 14), was captured in a checkpoint near Nablus wearing an explosive belt. The young boy was paid by the Tanzim militia to detonate himself at the checkpoint. IDF soldiers manning the checkpoint were suspicious of him and told him to stay away from people. Later, an EOD team arrived and by using a police-sapper robot, removed the explosive belt from him. [2][3]. Hussam explained that he was offered 100 NIS and sex with virgins if he would perform the task. He said his friends mocked him in class. [4]" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_suicide_bombers_in_the_Israeli-Palestinian_conflict
Yes, hilarious.What do the Israeli's have to deal with? people go on holiday there.. its cushy.. I wouldn't mind living there, whats there to fear? the odd suicide bomb.. thats it, I could try living out on the outskirts to see some action, but if I didn't like the sparse rocket attack I could just live in Tel Aviv.
Sure, you could. And you probably wouldn't appreciate the soldiers that operate to ensure that you don't get blown up. And yet strangely enough most israeli's are very grateful to their military for defending them. Imagine that.
Do you really believe that the Paramiltary groups operating in Palestine are actually protecting their own people? Amazing way of showing it if they do. Sure they're hitting out and killing israeli's, but do they actually protect their people, or just place them in more harm?Then again I could live in the occupied territories, I'd have to deal with the electric and water supply being randomly cut off, maybe my house being demolished, friends/family getting injured or worse killed..
Actually you know what, its a no brainer, any intelligent person right wing or left wing can tell you its 100 times safer in Israel than it is in the occupied territories.
And I agree with you.. If you're not caught in a fight between Israeli and Palestinian forces, you might be caught in a fight between rival Palestinian paramilitary factions. Hell, you might even be threatened by the Palestinian police force, and be forced to bribe them for protection. Or you might be ignored entirely by the street gangs, and get to enjoy your house, until Israeli forces come to move you out before they blow it up, for having housed weapons. Or you may even be lucky enough to witness one of those wonderful paramilitary groups defending Palestine against the oppressors by firing from your own window.
Yes. Israel is much safer. I'd definetly prefer to live there than in Palestine.0 -
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Deleted User wrote:Simply put, i dont believe they care. After all, they don't see an end to the violence in the m.east.
Israel doesn't care either, they don't see an end to the violence, they can deal with it.I don't know. But you were refering to "Tiresome double standards as usual". They're willing to act as shields to protect Palestinian lives, but not Israeli lives? Double standards, despite the anti-war/pro-peace attitude they put forward.
Give me one example in history of peace activists helping an army of occupation.Reacting to more freedoms, by increasing the fighting? Yup, that makes sense.
Wow, their occupying overlords through them a few scraps and they're supposed to be happy. The first intifada was a sudden massive human repulsion to being occupied and treated like crap. Its almost like saying that slaves should be happy when you give them a few more rights.Well its nice to see that you've avoided the indocrination that the rest of us have received. And yes, thats what they experience. And yes, we don't experience the Israeli side of being a target either. I guess thats why your sympathies hold with the Palestinians, and mine tend to hold with Israeli's.
Nope I am well and truly Western indoctrinated, I just know I am, thats the difference heheh. The average Israeli has little to worry about compared to the average Palestinian. Its much more dangerous to be a Palestinian, fact.Then? Perhaps answer my own question first, and then i'll answer yours?
Can't remember what it was sorry.When have the Palestinians ever bent over and taken the occupation>? The violence has continued despite Israeli withdrawals.... and in many cases actually increased. Its more like the Palestinian groups don't want the Israeli's to actually leave.
Well maybe if they did bend over and take it and kiss their masters hand, and be have themselves... wait lets have a look to see who does that.. Afghanistan no? but its for their own good!.. they still don't. Iraq? nope, even though its apparently for their own good.. they don't either. Its something called pride aswell, but you aren't allowed to have that when you are being brutally occupied. I bet right wing people just stamp there feet and wonder why the Afghans, Palestinians, and Iraqis let themselves be occupied.. its for their own good after all!Both the PA and Hamas promised reductions in attacks made upon Israel for the concessions that Israel has made over the years. Thats the reduction in attacks that I'm talking about. They're defending themselves against an enemy that slowly pulling itself out of their territory. Don't you for the moment think, that their attacks on Israeli forces, whether they be in Israeli territrory or Palestinian, just encourages the Israeli's to dig in?
Attacks are making the Israelis want to leave the territories. Fullstop. Its working, very slow, but its working.So... you can't be bothered to acknowledge the article above?
Yes I can, but I could quote 82 articles, but I'm not gonna put someone through the pain of reading them.yes, there's been three hundred killed since the soldier was taken. How many were members of paramilitary groups? How many were killed by other Palestinians during their little civil war?
No these were Palestinians killed by Israelis.. just killed by Israelis.. not car accidents, not 'little civil wars', just killed by Israelis.I'm not denying that Israeli's have killed alot of Palestinians over the years, and especially over the last few months. I'm not seeking to reduce that impact. I'm not seeking to dimish Israel's responsibility in killing innocents. I'm seeking an acknowledgement of Palestinian responsibility for the situation, by people like yourself. But I guess i'll have to wait quite a while for that.
I'm waiting for the day that the Israeli's stop needlessly butchering Palestinians and demolishing houses just because some Israeli soldier is killed by some hate crazed Palestinian militant who's had his brother killed. This will go on for the next 1000 years if thats the case. The Israeli government has the power to stop it, they control the IDF. With Palestinians you don't have this control, individual gunmen/suicide bombers cannot be controlled, curbed yes, but not controlled.Or you could be a soldier thats had his whole extended family killed in some suicide bombing. You're forced to be constantly alert, for fear of some maniac that decides to blow some Israeli family up. You walk the streets and never see your people at peace, because they always have to have their guard up. You could be stabbed in the dark, your vehicle blown up, mobbed in the street, etc. Aye, thats all so easy.
No I reckon alot more Palestinian civilians are killed every year than Israeli soldiers. Therefore logically speaking that would make being a Palestinian civilian alot more dangerous.Stop fooling yourself. Israel isn't a paradise. Soldiers don't have it easy. They face a disguised enemy that they have to experience on duty, and when they're off duty? They still face that same enemy, and have to trust that your fellow soldiers will prevent their attacks on your people. This is a war, where Palestinians have shed alot of Israeli blood, and have no compunction doing so.
Tel Aviv is alot more relaxed and safe than 99% of places in the occupied territories. You can go on holiday there, I've heard its very nice. Anywhere nice you can go on holiday in Palestine?How about the palestinians do something for a change? How about ceasing th e violence? How about their government rejecting their mandate to destroy Israel? How about their government/hamas seeking to spend their money and the aid they receive on food & medicines as opposed to weapons?
How about the Israelis stop treating the Palestinians like crap. The Israelis wring their hands and pretend they are trying so hard, but all they do, day in day out is attack, bombs, demolish, provoke.
Just try to imagine that the Israelis do not react violently in any way to anything for 6 months.. just 6 months.. its absolutely impossible to imagine.But thats, of course, not acceptable. Its not as if they need to show Israel that Palestinians would keep their promises if they did indeed fully withdraw. Its all or nothing.
Why on earth are they still there? pull out and it will give them the higher moral ground, whats so hard about it? If I was an Israeli I'd be like lets get out of there."On March 24, 2004, one week after capturing a bomb in the bag of 12-year-old Abdullah Quran, Hussam Abdo, a 16-year-old Palestinian (who initially claimed he was 14), was captured in a checkpoint near Nablus wearing an explosive belt. The young boy was paid by the Tanzim militia to detonate himself at the checkpoint. IDF soldiers manning the checkpoint were suspicious of him and told him to stay away from people. Later, an EOD team arrived and by using a police-sapper robot, removed the explosive belt from him. [2][3]. Hussam explained that he was offered 100 NIS and sex with virgins if he would perform the task. He said his friends mocked him in class. [4]" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_suicide_bombers_in_the_Israeli-Palestinian_conflict
Yes, hilarious.
How have they become like this? Irish people were occupied and we never got to this stage, but then again we didn't have the Israelis on our doorstep thankgod, because if we did, then sadly I say our kids would have been doing the same thing.Sure, you could. And you probably wouldn't appreciate the soldiers that operate to ensure that you don't get blown up. And yet strangely enough most israeli's are very grateful to their military for defending them. Imagine that.
Do you really believe that the Paramiltary groups operating in Palestine are actually protecting their own people? Amazing way of showing it if they do. Sure they're hitting out and killing israeli's, but do they actually protect their people, or just place them in more harm?
They are resisting the Israeli occupation. What are the IDF doing? they are killing people.. all the time, killing people, its what they do, its what they are good at. They kill alot more people than the Palestinian militants ever could.And I agree with you.. If you're not caught in a fight between Israeli and Palestinian forces, you might be caught in a fight between rival Palestinian paramilitary factions. Hell, you might even be threatened by the Palestinian police force, and be forced to bribe them for protection. Or you might be ignored entirely by the street gangs, and get to enjoy your house, until Israeli forces come to move you out before they blow it up, for having housed weapons. Or you may even be lucky enough to witness one of those wonderful paramilitary groups defending Palestine against the oppressors by firing from your own window.
And same in Iraq, and Afghanistan, aaand Northern Ireland, ever notice how much violence there is when you occupy.Yes. Israel is much safer. I'd definetly prefer to live there than in Palestine.
Agreed.0 -
Deleted User wrote:So, you don't believe that having the potential to gain rights is better than having no rights at all?
To counter - you believe they should just accept what the nice people with the better weapons, the more advanced technology who have occupied them decide should be their fate and maybe some day, when they are good peaceful little boys and girls, the winners may get around to granting them more rights (ala the various Indian Nations in the US:D ).
Anyway the only reason the Palestinians actually got those limited rights you speak of from past peace efforts (Oslo) is because they didn't lie down and take whatever the Israelis decided for them. They fought back.
People who do not manage to fight sufficently effectively and cleverly when an occupier tries to rob their land, destroy their culture, and drive them out end up on the scrapheap of history. The remnants may get tossed a few bones by the ancestors of the people who wiped the floor with their ancestors - but that is it.
So lying down and taking it from their Israeli betters is not a good option for the Palestinains really.
But how they fight is another question obviously, and bombings [esp. suicide attacks] aimed to cause mass civilian casualties inside Israel was never a good way of fighting back IMO.Deleted User wrote:Sure they are. Those leftovers you call them are more than the Palestinians have had in 40 years. Think back for a second. After the Israeli occupation first occured, how much land did Israel completely occupy within Palestine? Now, think of how much land that israel has withdrawn from.
What territory are you referring to? The territories Israel gave back to Egypt?
I assume you mean the areas under PA control?
You almost seem to suggest that these areas have the rights associated with a sovereign state. They do not. Israel can seal off, bomb, invade, extract people from, assasinate people within them etc whenever it is deemed necessary. Israel can pocket tax monies when it doesn't like the governnment which has been elected by the people living there.
Indeed - things are so bad at present that some Palestinian politicos are suggesting dissolving the PA + making Israel again fully responsible for its subjects in these territories - in effect returning the rights you were going on about because they have become so worthless!
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull&cid=1154525850030
In those 40 or so years you mention Israel has built lots of settlements on the areas it occupied and is now constructing a border fence/wall which will basically annex that land + any useful resources located nearby.
The recent pullout from the bits of Gaza? This was a strategic decision to make defending Israel and its people easier rather than giving land back as part of any peace deal. They can attack Gaza at will now and cut it off without worrying about what could happen to any vastly outnumbered settlers or their military guard.Deleted User wrote:And yes, its always contingent on Israel's wide ranging security needs, because palestinians have shown no desire to actually provide some trust.
Nor have the Israelis IMO. And they are the ones with the power here. I'm not absolving the Palestinains of blame for how the situation has developed but the burden usually falls on the powerful party, the occupier, to try and make peace.Deleted User wrote:And from what I've seen over the last decade and more, the palestinians will continue attacking regardless of what Israel does.
From what I've seen, the Israelis want "their" lands more than they actually want any lasting peace. They think they can win and get everything they want. They expand settlements and use them to drive a harder bargain as to how much of "their" land they get to hang on to in any final agreement with the Palestinians - or they delay things as they take more land and try to secure a better negotiating position. They do this now, and the violence provides them with a very good reason for this policy - but they also continued to do this during the relative calm of the abortive peace process.Deleted User wrote:They're in the same situation they were in a decade ago with less territory to show for it.
One could also apply that quote to the Palestinians.:)
A similar (or worse) situation + no hope now of getting large amounts of what was occupied post-67 back [since it has been settled by Israelis as part of govt. policy and now it has been fenced/walled off + effectively annexed and the annexation has been given the blessing of the current US president as a "fact on the ground"].0 -
fly_agaric wrote:To counter - you believe they should just accept what the nice people with the better weapons, the more advanced technology who have occupied them decide should be their fate and maybe some day, when they are good peaceful little boys and girls, the winners may get around to granting them more rights (ala the various Indian Nations in the US:D ).
Israel deciding their fate? Actually, I'd say that it was the Palestinians that are deciding their own fate. They've elected Hamas into power who won't deal with Israel on peaceful grounds, unless you believe their holding onto their madate for the destruction of Israel is a reasonable position to negotiate from? They've received the basis from which to expand their independence, but very little has been done to progress from this.
Israel by allowing the elections to occur gave the Palestinians a legitimaticy in their eyes, which wasn't there before. They gave them a political presence which could have been used to promote a peaceful solution to the situation, which the PA couldn't do due to its past history of corruption. A clean slate was offered to the Palestinians, and instead they pissed on it.Anyway the only reason the Palestinians actually got those limited rights you speak of from past peace efforts (Oslo) is because they didn't lie down and take whatever the Israelis decided for them. They fought back.
They didn't receive those rights from killing Israeli's though. The Osla accords were an agreement with Israel. Without Israel's agreement the Palestinians would have received nothing, and the only way that Israel would have agreed to giving Palestinians more rights (and land) would be to gain something in return. Except, they didn't gain anything in return.People who do not manage to fight sufficently effectively and cleverly when an occupier tries to rob their land, destroy their culture, and drive them out end up on the scrapheap of history. The remnants may get tossed a few bones by the ancestors of the people who wiped the floor with their ancestors - but that is it.
Which is all in the past. The land was stolen, the attempt to destroy the culture was made, and hundreds of thousands were already driven out. Thats gone before.
There are very few Israeli's alive & serving in Palestine that were alive when the country was occupied. There's very few that were alive when the state of Israel was created. The people of israel are paying for the mistakes of their ancestors, and continue to pay to this day, just as the Palestinians are paying for both sides mistakes.
You can continue living in the past dwelling on how the Palestinians got the raw deal, or you can look to see how you can improve the lives of the existing population. And continued violence is not going to put food on the table, allow medicines to the needy, and generate paying jobs.So lying down and taking it from their Israeli betters is not a good option for the Palestinains really.
Well, since they've never tried it, its a moot point.But how they fight is another question obviously, and bombings [esp. suicide attacks] aimed to cause mass civilian casualties inside Israel was never a good way of fighting back IMO.
Ditto. Savagery breeds savagery. I fully believe Israel bears responsibility for the manner in which the Palestinians fight. Just not all of it.What territory are you referring to? The territories Israel gave back to Egypt?
Actually I was referring to the PA's control of the Gaza Strip which Israel mostly withdrew from, giving palestinians the ability to rule themselves. And 40% of the West Bank which the PA received limited control over.
Strange sort of behaviour for an oppressor to do. To give their enemies the ability to control parts of the very country you want to steal.I assume you mean the areas under PA control?
You almost seem to suggest that these areas have the rights associated with a sovereign state. They do not. Israel can seal off, bomb, invade, extract people from, assasinate people within them etc whenever it is deemed necessary. Israel can pocket tax monies when it doesn't like the governnment which has been elected by the people living there.
And I'll never understand how you can believe that Palestinians have earned the right to have complete and utter independence immediately, without any trial period. Why is it that Israel should trust palestinians that they won't continue attacking Israel once Israel gives them full independence? It makes sense, and is reasonable to ask palestinians to prove them able to prevent attacks on Israel in return for full indpendence.
As for the Tax monies, its been shown that Israel would be willing to release these funds, should Hamas reject its charter, and would also be willing to supply aid to Palestine itself.Indeed - things are so bad at present that some Palestinian politicos are suggesting dissolving the PA + making Israel again fully responsible for its subjects in these territories - in effect returning the rights you were going on about because they have become so worthless!
Actually I'd only consider them becoming worthless because Palestinians have failed to sieze the opportunity to use them as a building block for more rights and more freedoms. Instead they received them, weren't satisfied with not getting everything together, and decided their only response should be violence.In those 40 or so years you mention Israel has built lots of settlements on the areas it occupied and is now constructing a border fence/wall which will basically annex that land + any useful resources located nearby.
Aye, and in the last few years many settlements have been removed, and gestures have been made to increase the number of settlements to be removed.
As for the border fence, personally I think it makes sense. Since it was put into effect, the level of people killed in those regions has actually decreased. Seems like a good reason to have it there, at least until Palestinians are willing to pause their attacks.The recent pullout from the bits of Gaza? This was a strategic decision to make defending Israel and its people easier rather than giving land back as part of any peace deal. They can attack Gaza at will now and cut it off without worrying about what could happen to any vastly outnumbered settlers or their military guard.
Damned if you do, and damned if you don't. Israel withdraws from part of Palestine, and its not a good thing. Instead there's some other reason thats not in the interests of Palestinians. Regardless of how Israel acts in Palestine, they're going to be criticised. There will always be some reason thrown up to demonize their motives.Nor have the Israelis IMO. And they are the ones with the power here. I'm not absolving the Palestinains of blame for how the situation has developed but the burden usually falls on the powerful party, the occupier, to try and make peace.
You're not? Really. cause I think you do. The palestinians continue this war. Without the attacks made on israeli forces, Israel would be forced to the peace table by the US simply because Bush wants a end to his career like Clinton had with the North. Besides the fact that Israel has been moving out of the occupied areas, if the Palestinians held off their attacks, and started following some of the past agreements, israeli's would likely feel there's a chance that palestinians can be trusted with independence.From what I've seen, the Israelis want "their" lands more than they actually want any lasting peace. They think they can win and get everything they want.
The land held by Israel has been decreasing since the 80's. Thats hardly a way of showing that they believe they can hold on to the land. Actually I do think they can hold on to Palestine if they really wished. Tehy'd just bring back blanketing the country with troops, bring back curfews, suspending the palestinian police force, and essentially placing the territory under lockdown. Simple.One could also apply that quote to the Palestinians.:)
Except that the Palestinians actually have more territory under their control. But apart from that, then...0 -
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