Dodgy people looking to buy pistols

newby.204

Was in a shop today to get some rounds and well , standin there at the counter when i walked in were, quite frankly, the two dodgiest lookin lads ive ever seen/heard puttin the deposit down on a Sig P226 9mm. Im all for people gettin into the sport(shootin in general) but sweet merciful jesus, since people have found out you can get pistols in this country it isnt even funny how many people see themselves as the next John McClane(die hard). Whatever happened to startin small?? I admit i was ambitious to say the least in my first two firearms semi-auto berreta 12g(now an O/U12g) + .22 wmr b/a
(hopefully one more next year and that will be my lot). I think some sort of standardised training needs to be set up or a probationary period with a club
( say six months with club guns and a letter from the club to your FAO to say your good to go or something) before you may purchase your own pistol.

demonloop

Couldn't agree more.

There should be 12 month probabtionary period in my opinion before any member of a club can apply for their own firearms, and a letter from club official stating they are good attenders, enthusiastic shooters etc etc

macnas

A 9mm is startin small:D

civdef

A lot of people have been saying this since the start.

Klunk

Paying a deposit on a pistol and getting a licence for the same article as we all know are two completely different matters:D

Clare gunner

Not to mind judgeing books by their covers.:D

newby.204

well yea you could be right there except when i was in the shop a few words came out of their mouths that scared me, ".357" and "self-defence", not practical pistol or target shootin!!! They werent young either bout mid 30's

jaycee

Nobody wants idiots with firearms of any sort ..

This is where we depend on the backround Garda character checking to sort out the good guy's from the "goblins"
I also agree that some type of ownership ladder system would be good ...
Start with a long gun ..either .177 air rifle or .22lr and move up after you have gained some skill and experience .

Gerri

newby.204 wrote:

Was in a shop today to get some rounds and well , standin there at the counter when i walked in were, quite frankly, the two dodgiest lookin lads ive ever seen/heard puttin the deposit down on a Sig P226 9mm. Im all for people gettin into the sport(shootin in general) but sweet merciful jesus, since people have found out you can get pistols in this country it isnt even funny how many people see themselves as the next John McClane(die hard). Whatever happened to startin small?? I admit i was ambitious to say the least in my first two firearms semi-auto berreta 12g(now an O/U12g) + .22 wmr b/a
(hopefully one more next year and that will be my lot). I think some sort of standardised training needs to be set up or a probationary period with a club
( say six months with club guns and a letter from the club to your FAO to say your good to go or something) before you may purchase your own pistol.

This is why we need cloning, at least then we can have all shooters or potential shooters looking harmless and in no way threatening. Perhaps we could also check in the maternity hospitals and "get rid" of the "dodgy looking babies". Seriously, isn't it strange that we criticise the Gardai for being too stict in relation to firearms licensing and then we do not trust them to do a decent job of filtering out the "dodgy" characters. I suggest that all pistol applicants send their application to boards.ie with photograph so that we can all have a look and filter out the "dodgy" looking applicants before sending it to the Gardai for rubber stamping.

civdef

All very well Gerri, and the Guards do a good job filtering, but it is very true that the reintroduction of pistols has brought about a new crop of people suddenly interested in shooting who somehow never bothered before, and who in many cases, valid concerns exist about their motivation.

demonloop

civdef wrote:

All very well Gerri, and the Guards do a good job filtering, but it is very true that the reintroduction of pistols has brought about a new crop of people suddenly interested in shooting who somehow never bothered before, and who in many cases, valid concerns exist about their motivation.

Correct.

And as the thread starter said, 'self-defence' being even mentioned is all the info you need.

Is it wrong to judge a book by the cover? Perhaps, but in this case it looks like the cover had all the relevant info to form an opinion, and a correct one at that by the sounds of it.

You dont see many of these dodgy characters in looking to buy a .177 target air pistol do you?

That said, hopefully the authorities can weed out these guys before they do the sport real harm

Sparks

civdef wrote:

A lot of people have been saying this since the start.

Yup. And a lot of people then took lumps out of them over this "all shooters together" dogma.

newby.204 wrote:

well yea you could be right there except when i was in the shop a few words came out of their mouths that scared me, ".357" and "self-defence", not practical pistol or target shootin!!! They werent young either bout mid 30's

Hopefully they'll say the same thing to the Gardai.

Umiq88

Apart from the guarda the fire arms dealer should have some cop on not to be selling pistols to a customer mentioning the use for self defense

whupass

that is why there's the "don't like the look o' that" clause!

Chuck Norris CAN judge a book by it's cover!

mcguiver

I've spoken to a few of the dealers around Dublin, and they all reported a huge increase in enquiries from "dodgy characters" since pistols start getting licenced again.

I can definitely see a need for shooters to be able to prove that they are actively competing in contests, how many of us have met the shooter who "always wanted one or thinks it looks cool".

My fear is that these mupits will ruin it for all shooters.

Any suggestions on how to improve the system , please see below...


http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054964401&referrerid=&highlight=

Clare gunner

Well,lets look at this somwhat realistically.If these "dodgey chacters" were talking about a 357 and self defence,and they go and apply with that in their local cop shop,that is as far as the application is going to go anyway.
Second,if they just want this as a fashion accessory ,etc.The clued in gun dealer [who obviously must be able to make snap chacter assesments on his customers nowadays.]Should build in huge difficulties into his sales pitch for a handgun,like the intense backround checks,the many months of training required,etc, etc.That should discourage all but the most determined ligit people.
Guess how many dealers will do that to the better of society or lose a sale?
Third;why would said dodgey chacters be botherd going thru legal hassle ,when they could aquire one for a couple hundred euros in a pub somwhere??
More likely they might be casing the shops to see who has handguns in stock and who would it be worth turning the gunshop and owner over for the stock.If some dealers correlleated the descriptions of chacters,you might find a pattern emerging.

Gerri

civdef wrote:

All very well Gerri, and the Guards do a good job filtering, but it is very true that the reintroduction of pistols has brought about a new crop of people suddenly interested in shooting who somehow never bothered before, and who in many cases, valid concerns exist about their motivation.

So now we have the boards.ie police to ensure that all applicants meet OUR high standards instead of just enjoying our sport and leaving policing to the Gardai? Next step is to prohibit anyone who could potentially be a boy racer from having access to cars etc.etc.

Isn't it nice to know that everyone who currently has a firearm leaves it securely locked away every night and also that nobody who has a pistol licence is carrying their pistol while working or socialising. I have personally met a guy who had a Walther .22 in his pocket while enjoying a pint in a pub. I am sure he wasn't carrying it for "self defense", probably just forgot to leave it at home while he went out for the night. So what is the correct course of action in this instance? Call the Gardai? Bawl him out? Take the pistol from him? Tell the publican? Or perhaps suggest that he drink orange instead, lest he gets aggressive and starts shooting up the place? Suggestions anyone?

civdef

I am sure he wasn't carrying it for "self defense", probably just forgot to leave it at home while he went out for the night.

I honestly can't tell if you are being ironic there, but if you're not, that excuse is right up there with "the dog ate my homework".

So what is the correct course of action in this instance? Call the Gardai? Bawl him out? Take the pistol from him? Tell the publican? Or perhaps suggest that he drink orange instead, lest he gets aggressive and stars shooting up the place? Suggestions anyone?

Any or all of the above could be appropriate in the circumstances.

I don't think some peole get that all it's going to take is for one licenced pistol owner to do something stupid, and that's it for the rest of us.

Umiq88

I dont think every dealer around the country is so desperate for a sale that he would sell a pistol to anyone in the country who walks into the shop. Obviously its not up to the dealer to screen all the people that buy things off him but in this case when the guy wanted to buy a pistol for self defense alarm bells should have been ringing in the dealers head.

Gerri the point was that dealers shouldnt sell guns to people coming into a shop looking for a pistol just because they're after watching some movie and think id like one of them or something. Fair enough its the guards job to sort them out but people like that do the sport no favours and its just as easy for the dealer to refuse selling a gun to someone who obviously has no intention of using the gun as a sporting firearm.

And yes i would like to think anyone with a firearm would have it locked away securely while its not int use. Had a shooting mate of mine gone to the pub with a pistol in his pocket i would have told him to go straight home and lock it away otherwise would have called the police had he not done this. Had i caught him twice i would recommend to the guards to revoke his licence. Bringing a gun to a pub or any public place is utterly stupid and consuming alcohol while in possession of a firearm is insanity

It only takes little things like that to get the whole sport banned and then where would we be

jaycee

don't think some peole get that all it's going to take is for one licenced pistol owner to do something stupid, and that's it for the rest of us.

Sorry Civ, that may well be true for all I know but that dosen't make any more sense than saying that if one licenced driver has a crash ..we all lose our cars.

However, it is important that responsible shooters distance themselves from the type of attitude and behaviour mentioned and maybe be involved in a little "Police assistance" where called for.

Shooters or not ..we have a duty as citizens to report unsafe or potentially dangerous behaviour, Only by this will we be taken seriously as people whose interests are in sport and totally unconnected with unlawful use of firearms.

I generally have to reassemble my firearms when I arrive at the range , Magazines , Bolt .. Slide ..etc. depending on the firearm in question.

civdef

Sorry Civ, that may well be true for all I know but that dosen't make any more sense than saying that if one licenced driver has a crash ..we all lose our cars.

Pistol shooting has a precarious position, wouldn't take much at all to have it all stopped again. Is complacency setting in regarding this? If so, it's unwarranted in my opinion.

newby.204

jaycee wrote:

Sorry Civ, that may well be true for all I know but that dosen't make any more sense than saying that if one licenced driver has a crash ..we all lose our cars.

I think maybe jaycee your being a bit naive in that statement, this country, as with most western countries, would shut down without cars, never going to be taken away no matter how many road deaths. However the goverment/doj doesnt need pistol shooting economically it wouldnt affect the country if a policy of non-issue/reissue was introduced. And quite frankly i think they are waiting for that one idiot who shouldnt have got through the system to f!*k it up for us!!!!!

rrpc

This is where the new firearms act puts the onus on target shooring clubs. You cannot own a pistol unless you are a member of an authorised target shooting club, and if you cease to be a member, the club must inform the Gardai.

The premise being that 'dodgy characters' are weeded out by the clubs and either don't get membership in the first place, or if the people just join for the purpose of obtaining a certificate, they will lose it if they quit.

(7) Any person who holds a firearm certificate and who is found to no longer fulfil the conditions under section 4 (1)(d) or section 4(3) above shall be guilty of an offence.

Sparks

Why do I keep remembering Hungerford reading Gerri's post? Ryan shot people with an air rifle for weeks before the massacre. He was disciplined in work for showing up with a hunting knife and pistol for "self-defence" for work. And eventually, after several incidents which on their own would have been enough to have his firearms confiscated, he went on a rampage and killed sixteen people.

We either grow up and regulate ourselves, or we will be regulated by outside agencies less sympathetic to our sport and if that happens, we will be decidedly worse off than we are now.

jaycee

Ok.. perhaps I should have made my point more clearly .

Civ: I am so far from complacent as to be practically paranoid, I am alarmed though by comments that indicate a mindset where careful and responsible shooters should expect to lose their firearms as a result of the actions of one or more "Dodgy" persons.

I fully realise the economic differences to the state between firearm ownership and car ownership, I was trying to draw a comparison with another lawful activity we are engaged in and how unjust it would be to lose your car because of the activitys of joyriders.

That is essentially my point ... I think it is dangerous to foster the notion that one incident by a "looper" and the jig is up. I would rather be seen to be proactive in assisting the Gardaí to regulate the people who have been cleared by them to obtain firearms certificates.

We need to develop a strong working interactive relationship between the clubs and the Gardaí to show that we are monitoring the activitys and conduct of shooters with the safety of all as our first concern. We who have constant contact with other shooters are best placed to spot some early signs of trouble .

Towards that end a quick audit of attendance records by the clubs will quickly reveal those members who joined solely to get licenced , but rarely if ever attended thereafter. Those people have obviously little interest in target shooting and therefore their motives for getting a firearm are open to question.

It might sound harsh , but I believe it is nessesary to be "Seen" to be active in avoiding trouble .

Clare gunner

Taking a good guess at Human nature,I do belive a dealer would"sell" a firearm to anyone here.Getting a liscense for it and walking out of the shop with it is another story!!!That isnt the dealers job as to decide if a chacter is dodgey or not.That is the police job.We have a really nasty habit of pre piegon holing people in Ireland.Bald,tattoos,etc=gurrier.Clean suit,tie,flash car=well trustworthy type OR biggest gangster going.
Agree up to a point about self policing,eg this chacter walking around with a 22 in his pocket.Not somthing you oversee easily.And if we are going to cooperate with the Gardai,if say one of us is caught drinking and driving.Will they voulantary surrender their guns for the time they are off the road???
In Europe,you lose your guns as well as your driving liscense.Stands to reason,you cant be trusted with a car,can you be trusted with a gun??

BUT herein lieth the rub.You report this to the Gardai,Will they follow this up???We have a vertiable flow of illegal fireworks coming into the South at the moment,but apart from lots of "tough new laws"[A most totally hackneyd phrase by now] to combat this,diddly squat in arrests,etc.So making all the laws you want,it means nothing unless it is enforced.Same thing with the club rules thing.How many times does somone have to go to their club to not be considerd a dodgey chacter.Some people are not club charlies ,[I am] and might be only able to get down to it once a month or twice a month.Does that immedaitely make them a Hamilton[who lived in the club virtually] or a Ryan?We have to stop prejudgeing the dodgey chacters by looks and look more at the normal quiet blokes,methinks.

Klunk

Well, a good friend of mine who already has a firearms cert has just waited ten months for his pistol licence. If that doesn't put poeple off who are looking 357's and the likes as a fashion accessory I don't know what will:eek: .

jaycee

BUT herein lieth the rub.You report this to the Gardai,Will they follow this up?

Well I would hope so , but I think that any verbal report of unwanted behaviour should be followed up with a written copy .Written reports tend to get acted on and also leave a paper trail which can be useful if everything get's pear shaped.

flight93

I think that the screening process for applicants is erratic at best. I know people who are genuine enthusiasts who have had major problems getting a licence. On the other hand I know people who have nowhere to use a pistol that have had no problem getting a licence. It depends on what station you live near and therefore are applying to.

In my club a couple joined, they shot every single Sunday for a year. After the year was up they recieved a letter from the club saying that they were reccomended by the club and were full members. This enabled them to get thier own firearms (a rifle each I think). After this event they ere never seen again. They as far as we are aware had nowhere else to shoot (they had said this during the year). A committe member rang the cops to inform them of the situation. Result: No action taken by the cops.

I really believe that one nutter could ruin it for us all. Joe and Jane Public is unaware that pistols are legeally available. They will vote for any politician that would want all pistols recalled in the event of some nut doing something daft.

I dont think it is fair to blame the gun dealers, having said that if I were a firearms dealer and I heard "self defence" from someone trying to buy a firearm I would make the police aware of it.

I bought sevral firearms from the North without meeting the dealer until I went to collect the gun. It would have been very hard for him to form an opinion of me.

I think as responsible shooters we should report things to the police that we think could endanger the future of our sport.

I also think that if you are experienced, perhaps passed safety courses and can prove that you have a safe place to shoot as wel las secure storage for your pistol you should be allowed to have one. Even if you dont compete in big competitions or shoot that often.

Kryten

I agree that if club committees come across one of these unsavoury "LOOKING" characters trying to join up, that they firstly get to talk to the guy to determine his intentions. It is true that one of the dodgiest fe****s wanting to join a club, could be one of the next international champions. Conversly, one of the most sensible looking blokes, who may have done time in the reserves or PDF, FAMILY MAN 2.4 Children etc, could be a trouble making headbanger!.

Any club that I have been a guest at or a competition, has a range attendance book which you sign. So if it comes to the crunch, the authorities can see which shooters are serious about their sport and which shooters are not.

Just my thoughts. ( Did I say that out loud?)

Clare gunner

We will be dammed either way.Too little attendance,media spin;lone nut,solitary figure who lived with his instruments of death ,etc etc.Joined just to get the liscense
Club Charley[Hamilton type] lives on the range every other day etc;Was a make belive Rambo,practised every week for his killing mission,no one in the club thought him odd firing off hundreds of thousands of rounds a week,etc.
Lets face it, unless the prospective dodgy chacter has just decended from the trees,going "me want gun,gun good,me want gun!"We are not going to spot a prospective nutjob,unless the club has a pre condition that every month each member has to go to a club appointed head shrinker.
The trouble with "following up" everything by the Gardai is have they the time to do so as well?Unless there is for want of a better term "clearand present danger" they wont/cant follow up everything.Unless it somthing important like issueing summons for parking offences.[Scarcasm mine].

What is to say that this report the situation of non seen club members like Flight 93 describes,isnt used as a petty get even stunt by the club??[Not implying that in flights case it is].Club members leave,why?possibly had a tiff about somthing in the club or whatever.Somone decides on the comittiee to "fix" them.Rings the Gardai to cause hassle.Happens quite often in our society.Unless this clause becomes law,and we are going around like in former Soviet Russia spying on each other for any sign of deviation from the system.We will not only not attract new people,bur lose a good few established shooters as well.
THEN we have the situation like the Irish practical pistol folks.We dont have an established range or "club" per se.Possibly we see each other once or twice a year on different host ranges.Does that make us all nut jobs or dodgy?? As such going by the law we shouldnt exist at all here.Yet we do.
All in all ,the laws etc sound great in theory,but the practical side is still very difficult to impliment.