Dodgy people looking to buy pistols

freddieot

Catcher, the best thing to do is to approach some of the target clubs like Hilltop or Midlands etc. and see what they say when you explain the situation. Unfortunately, you are suffering (as I believe you are genuine) because the clubs must be causious.

Following that or before, if you know your local cops well, call into them to see their approach. Every distirct seems to be different and the requirements like monitored alarm etc. tend to vary as well as their disposition towards giving pistol certs in the first place.

One thing to consider, IF you keep getting brick walls, is that you will get a second hand rifle and scope for about €300 and you should have a lot less trouble joining a club under those conditions. You can always get the pistol later on and sell on the rifle.

To the best of my knowledge most Supts wont discuss a pistol licence unless you are an existing member of a target shooting club but your local FO will fill you in about the local situation. The rules on house security vary I I know one huy with CCTV and they are still not 'totally' happy while others only have a safe..

My main advice is to keep trying. It took me almost a year to get my first rifle licence back in 1993 and that was only a .22. so almost without exception we all had to face some sort of hurdles before getting into this sport. If you think about it from another angle, it is better than a free for all situation.

Best of luck.

freddieot

Sparks

freddieot wrote:

By the way, whatever about using Club Guns, using a Firearm belonging to another person does put you in breach of Firearms Regulations whether it's for one shot or 6 months etc. (Don't go down that road).

Eh, no, it doesn't. Well. It doesn't if you're on a target shooting range in training or in competition (and exposure to different types of firearm can be argued to be a form of training). Technically, you don't even have to be a member of the club at the time.

That said however, it would be the height of bad manners to do this if the club has specific rules prohibiting it.

freddieot

I don't mean this in a disrespectful way but there seems to be an urban myth for want of a better term that because A and B both have pistol s or rifles then it is okay to swop around and lend each other firearms on the range.

However, I stand by what I originally said. With the exception of Club guns which are usually specified and agreed with the Gardai (and also before someone mentions them, training Certs), - using or possessing any firearm for which you do not possess a Firearms Certificate is an offence.

Being a realist, In reality, yes, taking a shot from a fellow shooters gun will happen and I can't ever see anyone spending a night in jail over it. However, as was initially mentioned in this thread, using someone else's firearm over a period of months at a club, as a substitute, however temporary, for getting one yourself, is not something anyone should consider. It is also a good way for the owner to lose his licence and for the authorities to start focusing on the range in question.

Sparks

freddieot wrote:

there seems to be an urban myth for want of a better term that because A and B both have pistol s or rifles then it is okay to swop around and lend each other firearms on the range.

It's an urban myth usually referred to as Section 2, sub-section 4(d) of the Firearms Acts 1925-2006

2.—(1) Subject to the exceptions from this section hereinafter mentioned, it shall not be lawful for any person after the commencement of this Act to have in his possession, use, or carry any firearm or ammunition ...

(4) This section shall not apply to any of the following cases and such cases are accordingly excepted from this section, that is to say:
...
(d) the possession, use or carriage of a firearm or ammunition during a competition or target practice at a club, shooting range or any other place that stands authorised under this section or section 4A of this Act,

In other words, the legislation explicitly permits the use of a firearm during competition or target practise at a range regardless of whether or not you have a firearms certificate for that firearm.

V Bull

Well done Sparks, about time someone knows whats he's talking about.

In addition, the legal certified owner must be present at the shoot / competition and, of course, have his / her cert on them and give permission for use.

This opens another question, what if an accident occours with an injury or worse, who is responsible and or liabil, as the user, the person who borrowed the firearm, may not have INSURANCE for the loan firearm.........

Some clubs will take a small fee from visitors to a range to cover insurance for that days shooting, but I believe that this insurance is for the use of that particular CLUB GUN, owned by that particular club only or your own certified firearm if using it. Not a borrowed firearm from another visiting shooter from a different club.

Transport of a club gun through different Garda Divisions must also have a transport authorisation from each division that the carrier passes through and then it is upto the hosting club to decide if they will allow the carrier to use it on their grounds.

Insurance, Insurance, Insurance the big question..................

On an other point, I beleive that the UK practical pistol team for the European Handgun Championships have posted a request on the IPSC village site requesting the loan and or rental of friearms for the event. This, I beleive was shot down by the orginisers and they were informed that they must have their own firearms for the event. Open to correction......

rrpc

V Bull wrote:

Well done Sparks, about time someone knows whats he's talking about.

In addition, the legal certified owner must be present at the shoot / competition and, of course, have his / her cert on them and give permission for use.

In the case of a club firearm and where the user is a member (or member for the time being) then the legal owner is the club member.

This opens another question, what if an accident occours with an injury or worse, who is responsible and or liabil, as the user, the person who borrowed the firearm, may not have INSURANCE for the loan firearm.........

Depends on the insurance policy, but the legal process is the same as for any accident: Person reponsible, club, etc. in that order.

Some clubs will take a small fee from visitors to a range to cover insurance for that days shooting, but I believe that this insurance is for the use of that particular CLUB GUN, owned by that particular club only or your own certified firearm if using it. Not a borrowed firearm from another visiting shooter from a different club.

That's not how the act reads. it doesn't specify the gun or its ownership, only the use of it and the place of use.

Transport of a club gun through different Garda Divisions must also have a transport authorisation from each division that the carrier passes through and then it is upto the hosting club to decide if they will allow the carrier to use it on their grounds.

Again this depends how the authorisation is worded. It can be worded that the firearm can be used by club members at any authorised range. This precludes the requirement for removal orders which in any event do not exist in law.

On an other point, I beleive that the UK practical pistol team for the European Handgun Championships have posted a request on the IPSC village site requesting the loan and or rental of friearms for the event. This, I beleive was shot down by the orginisers and they were informed that they must have their own firearms for the event. Open to correction......

That depends on the country the event is being held in and its laws. It would be quite possible for this to happen here provided the right t's were crossed and i's dotted.

Manic Moran

foxhunter wrote:

Down here in our club rules state that all members of the club must be known by at least two other members before you are even considered for membership.

Kindof an old-boy's network then, isn't it?

If I'm not part of your circle of friends or colleagues how do I get into the club?

The idea of giving a complete stranger a loaded M4 in that context strikes me as being a complete failure of the self-preservation instinct, not to mention a dereliction of all manner of duties of care to the point of depraved indifference and I'd be bloody shocked if any firearms dealer in Ireland would do something so unbelievably and fundamentally stupid.

There is an important little detail which you seem to have missed. Original post said

we went to a local gun store noxt to an emegration office

Whilst ignoring the egregious spelling issues, the operative word here is 'We'.
You will find very few public ranges here which will rent a firearm to an unaccompanied individual unless the individual has already brought a firearm of his own.

NTM

astraboy

Manic Moran wrote:

You will find very few public ranges here which will rent a firearm to an unaccompanied individual unless the individual has already brought a firearm of his own.

NTM

I found a great place outside Boston, I have gone more then a couple of times to the place. The owner rents everything from handguns right up to Ar-15's and Uzi's, all semi auto of course, not fully auto. All you need is a passport, which I was surprized at considering Massachusetts has some of the stritcer laws regarding guns in the US. I have bought several friends along and both those that are into shooting and those that are not loved it. You get a quick safety lecture, select the firearm you want to shoot and get another quick overrun on how it works, loading etc. The guy is always very helpful and gives great pointers on how to improve your aim during range practice. It is a great way to see if you enjoy shooting without the long run hassel of joing a club, hence maybe why more people are into it in the US, it is easier to try? So far this summer I have tried several handguns, revolver and semi-auto.

V Bull

Thanks for that rrpc, but my point is that if a shooter came to an authorised club, not his own club, to take part in a competition using his buddies firearm, with his buddies permission to use that firearm, and an accident occours, who is liabil taking into account that the shooter has no firearms certificate for that or anyother firearm and possibly no insurance of any kind because he is not a firearms owner. Bearing in mind that they are not members of the host club.

My reading of it would be that there are 3 parties responible, 1 the owner of the firearm, 2 the host club and 3 the actual shooter. Therefore, if I were a club offical overseeing a competition or target shooting event I would not allow anyone who is not a member of the host club to share a firearm during a competition or target shooting event regardless of the possible paperwork that they might have unless they can show a firearms certificate(s) with their names and addresses on it with the firearms details.

les45

Mark.

In relation to movement orders does the folllowing section still apply

Section 16 of the Firearms Act 1925 provides:

" It shall not be lawful for any person to consign-

(b) for removal from one place in Ireland to another such place,

any firearm or ammunition, unless such removal is authorised in writing by
the Superintendent of An Garda Síochána of the district from which firearm
or ammunition is consigned for removal".

In addition, should an individual be the holder of a firearms certificate
for the firearm being moved, they are exempted

The situation in France re the IPSC Match is you must have a domestic permit plus Euro Pass for the firearm you intend to use in the match .

rrpc

les45 wrote:

Mark.

In relation to movement orders does the folllowing section still apply

Section 16 of the Firearms Act 1925 provides:

" It shall not be lawful for any person to consign-

(b) for removal from one place in Ireland to another such place,

any firearm or ammunition, unless such removal is authorised in writing by
the Superintendent of An Garda Síochána of the district from which firearm
or ammunition is consigned for removal".

In addition, should an individual be the holder of a firearms certificate
for the firearm being moved, they are exempted

The situation in France re the IPSC Match is you must have a domestic permit plus Euro Pass for the firearm you intend to use in the match .

I believe that a Super can add that type of authorisation to a club authorisation and thus does not need to issue individual removal orders.

In other words it can say on a club authorisation that "the members of the club are authorised to use the club firearms on any authorised range."

No need for a removal order then. I'm not speculating here, I've seen such wording used.

rrpc

V Bull wrote:

Thanks for that rrpc, but my point is that if a shooter came to an authorised club, not his own club, to take part in a competition using his buddies firearm, with his buddies permission to use that firearm, and an accident occours, who is liabil taking into account that the shooter has no firearms certificate for that or anyother firearm and possibly no insurance of any kind because he is not a firearms owner. Bearing in mind that they are not members of the host club.

I think you are confusing legal liability with legal ability. The person is legally allowed to use the firearm, the secondary issue is as to whether they are insured or not.

In the first, providing that a temporary membership is in place (most clubs do this as part of the range fee), then they are entitled to shoot and legally so.

The second part relating to liability for any accidents occurring come down to the normal liability rules: The person who caused the accident is always the first respondent irrespective as to whether they are insured or not.

It's the same as if an uninsured driver crashed into you. they are still responsible for any damages caused whether or not they can pay for them. The fact that they are doubly in the wrong by not being insured doesn't move the liability onto anyone else.