Dodgy people looking to buy pistols

Sparks

We are not going to spot a prospective nutjob,unless the club has a pre condition that every month each member has to go to a club appointed head shrinker.

Except that by the time Dunblane happened, Hamilton had already been kicked out of several clubs for being dodgy. Had the police actually listened... well. We could play that game all day.

What is to say that this report the situation of non seen club members like Flight 93 describes,isnt used as a petty get even stunt by the club?

The libel laws are the first thing that jump to mind. If the club is lying about their attendance or making untoward claims, the libel laws would let you prosecute the club rather effectively. Doubtless there are several other legal avenues as well.

THEN we have the situation like the Irish practical pistol folks.We dont have an established range or "club" per se.

The IPSC do - Newry. And aren't the MNSCI approved, and isn't Hilltop?

All in all ,the laws etc sound great in theory,but the practical side is still very difficult to impliment.

Such is all law CG Trick here will be to implement it in a way that keeps everyone happy, both us and the (much, much larger number of) non-firearm-owners...

Dr_Teeth

At the risk of sounding like one of these 'dodgy people', I'd actually like to try pistol target shooting. I've been reading this board for a while now but still don't have much of an idea where to go.

I live near Dublin city centre. Are there any clubs/ranges near-by I could join that would let me try out this sport for a few months to see if I really enjoyed it before I made an investment?

Cheers,
Teeth.

Sparks

In the city centre, you're out of luck Doc. Nearest might be UCD if you were a UCD alumni, and you could start off with air pistol there. Next nearest, you're looking at leaving the city, and really, heading for Wicklow or Meath. There, you'd have several options; Hilltop, East Coast, Eagles and a few others in Wicklow; Courtlough, Wilkinstown (air pistol again) and a few others in the other direction.

Dr_Teeth

Yeah that's what I thought. It's unfortunate that I work in Dublin, my family are from Donaghpatrick only a few minutes from Wilkinstown. Any chance of someone writing a Stickie post of the details of these clubs/ranges btw?

Clare gunner

[

QUOTE=Sparks]Except that by the time Dunblane happened, Hamilton had already been kicked out of several clubs for being dodgy. Had the police actually listened... well. We could play that game all day.

QED

The libel laws are the first thing that jump to mind. If the club is lying about their attendance or making untoward claims, the libel laws would let you prosecute the club rather effectively. Doubtless there are several other legal avenues as well.

Well, the first thing is proving that,if the sec or whomever had a word in a local Sgts ear,no writing.Just acting on an anymonous tipoff Sir.

The IPSC do - Newry. And aren't the MNSCI approved, and isn't Hilltop?

Well, in the 26 counties??NI is a different land,wether we like it or not.

Such is all law CG Trick here will be to implement it in a way that keeps everyone happy, both us and the (much, much larger number of) non-firearm-owners...

Indeedy,crack that one and you havea good chance of predicting six right next Sat!!:D

flight93

If the individuals I described used the club for no other reason than to get firearms certificates, as it seems they did and they did something daft, our club might feel that something should be said. After an incident members might say"yeah, we felt that they just joined to get a licence, but we felt the gardai would be too busy to want to know".

A remark like that might in some cases show a pattern of some sort to the gardai, you never know. It also shows that the club genuinely cares about what sort of members it has, I think this is very important.

maglite

can i just compaire for a moment an expieriance i had in florida over the week

we went to a local gun store noxt to an emegration office and 8 bail bond agencies,,
then we enquired about the range facilitiey to be handed a gun and told that would be $30, now the gun was a full auto M4 and the only instruction i got was trigger,, safety off,, point squeeze...bang

oi and dont load until you go in ,,
at this point i was now a stranger holding a auto M4 with 50 rounds oif ammo within 3 feet of the door....


total oppisate colture to what we have here
i also got my hands on a glock 9mm a 38 spl a p22 a tech 9 and an MP5



contrast that to what we have here and you will not think the people here a shady

flight93

I understand what you are saying, but do we really want to end up with a situation like that here? It will just take one sh!thead to ruin everything here for us.

Clare gunner

Well, lets put this into perspective.You have 50 rnds in a M4.You are in a Class3 gunstore,in a concealed carry state.
80% chance that gunstore owners are carrying handguns or within 10ft of a loaded weapon.And will know how to use them.[
Logical saftey procedure INMHO,having armed people around a large amount of firearms and ammo.You never know what nut might walk in]
Gunstore is next to 8 bailbond agencies.After having done fugitive recovery,or in non PC terms Bounty hunting.You can be assured there will be at least four or five well armed chacters in or around those agencies,who are ex military or police or NRA firearms instructors,who proably are the gunstores regular customers,and will be a tad peed off if somthing daft might happen to their arms supplier.
Next you are next door to a Federal building[IE the Emigration office] There will be at least one armed uniformed security gaurd and possibly three plain clothes DOE agents at any given time in the building. Not to mind how many possible concealed carry folks could be in the area.
There is NO COMPARISION between the US and Ireland in gun laws,carrying,etcThey dont have to worry about a "sport"image over there.
It is a constitutional right.
Sure go ahead,with your 50 rnds[2 20 rnd mags].You will not get very far in a district like that.

Kryten

Whilst living in Arizona in 1998, I joined Caswell shooting club in Mesa.
Excellent facility. The staff there were very safety conscious. And yes openly carrying loaded pistols for security.

Same at a club near the airport in San Fransisco. Myself and 2 other Irish lads walked in off the street wanting to do some handgun shooting.

The guy behind the counter was very cagey about us and would'nt entertain us until he ascertained my safe handling of an unloaded firearm, carrying out safety precautions, questions about safety and a short inquiry of my firearms experience.

So maybe Florida is just not as strict, or the guy in there just did'nt care!!!!

Sparks

Clare gunner wrote:

Sure go ahead,with your 50 rnds[2 20 rnd mags].You will not get very far in a district like that.

Frankly, in that gun store owner's shoes, I wouldn't be worried about him not getting very far, I'd be worried about a few rounds of .223 fmj coming towards me at a fair rate of knots. The idea of giving a complete stranger a loaded M4 in that context strikes me as being a complete failure of the self-preservation instinct, not to mention a dereliction of all manner of duties of care to the point of depraved indifference and I'd be bloody shocked if any firearms dealer in Ireland would do something so unbelievably and fundamentally stupid.

Vegeta

Sparks wrote:

Frankly, in that gun store owner's shoes, I wouldn't be worried about him not getting very far, I'd be worried about a few rounds of .223 fmj coming towards me at a fair rate of knots. The idea of giving a complete stranger a loaded M4 in that context strikes me as being a complete failure of the self-preservation instinct, not to mention a dereliction of all manner of duties of care to the point of depraved indifference and I'd be bloody shocked if any firearms dealer in Ireland would do something so unbelievably and fundamentally stupid.

well in fairness sparks Ireland isn't much better i could walk in to any gun shop in Ireland with a few 12g cartridges in my pocket, after a chat and a smile i could ask to handle a shotgun and have it loaded, til empty and gun robbed before the shop keeper could do anything.

of course i'd want a screw loose to do that but again we are talking about people who have lost the plot

Clare gunner

Truthfully, there are quite a few DEAD robbers who have decided to rob gun stores in the US. Looks can decive over there. How many dead robbers are there of gun shops in Ireland????Frankly it is a doddle to knock over a gun shop over here.I mean what will the owner do?Shoot you??
Just because maglite describes this as indifference does not mean that it is.Plus if you dont know how to use FA,your 50 will be gone in a one minute mag change.FA is not a magic wand either.For all we know the guy could have had a fully loaded chopped 12GA under the counter.I'd give you nil chance of surviving that in a store range.
Anyway,unless Maglite is a dodgy chacter ,isnt this going OT.We cant compare the US and IRL on any level in shooting,or on RKBA.

arybvtcw0eolkf

newby.204 wrote:

They werent young either bout mid 30's

Damn you :mad:

I'm 40

Catcher86

civdef wrote:

All very well Gerri, and the Guards do a good job filtering, but it is very true that the reintroduction of pistols has brought about a new crop of people suddenly interested in shooting who somehow never bothered before, and who in many cases, valid concerns exist about their motivation.

Quite right civdef, there has been a new crop of people suddenly interested in shooting with the reintroduction of pistols, and I'am one of them.
I have thought about taking up shooting for some time, but the firearms available did'nt really give me much interest to pursue it further.
Maybe its the effect that Hollywood has had, but I have always had an interest in pistols. Maybe Hollywood is to blame for other peoples sudden interest as well.

I cant see any motivation for any serious criminal wanting to obtain a license, considering the amount of automatic and semi-automatic weapons they appear to have available to them on the evidence over the past few years.
It would have to be a pretty stupid criminal who would get a license for criminal purposes, because all they would be doing is creating a paper trail, which would just make them easier to convict.

I think some of this post is relevant to the thread on the High Court case.
I dont think that now I will bother going to my local station and asking for a license for say a sig p226. I would actually feel guilty doing so.
I should probably just apply for a low calibre rifle first, to prove that I am worthy.

foxhunter

Down here in our club rules state that all members of the club must be known by at least two other members before you are even considered for membership.
If after you have applied and been accepted in you must use the club pistol or if someone is willing to let you shoot theirs for a period of six months then if you have shown yourself to be of good character and the commitee are happy with your progress you will recieve a letter to state that .This then accompanies the application for the fac .
This policy has stood up well to the test so far and we have a good crew down here.
But as far as dodgy characters goes we have had plenty trying to get in but so far we have done a good job on the weeding ourselves .

freddieot

Catcher I can understand how you feel. There are a lot of people like you who for one reason or another suddenly have an interest in shooting pistol who in the past never would have been interested in say .22 Rifle or Shotgun. I believe that the main reason involved is for self-defence rather than some strange criminal conspiracy.

Naturally, those of us who have been shooting for years, maybe starting off with small calibre rifles or shotguns and dreaming of shooting pistol etc. feel a bit, lets say, suspicious, when people want to get directly involved with pistol shooting.

I appreciate the Hollywood factor, always wanted a pistol myself but obviously could not get one until a couple of years ago.

Unfortunately, experience with several clubs is that once they grant membership to someone who wants to shoot pistol and that person secures their FC, they tend not to show up to practice all that often, if at all. This further feeds the assumption that what the individual wanted was something for self defence rather than for target shooting.

To be clear on this, Irish law has no provision for an individual to possess a firearm for self-defence (except when specially issued by the State). They are allowed only for hunting or target shooting. Also, one loose cannon or pistol in this case could result in a clampdown and that is partly what motivates the shooting community to be causious surrounding the pistol issue as well as of course responsibility generally to the public safety.

However, don't feel guilty about anything. As a citizen you are as entitled as anyone else to a pistol licence, provided you fulfill the same conditions as another individual. If you have a desire to go and join a target club then seek them out and also discuss the pistol issue with your local Firearms Officer. I also know that part of the problem is that many clubs won't entertain you if they think that you just want to use them to get a licence. Think about joining and using Club Guns or as you suggested youself, getting a .22 Rifle to start with and seeing how you get on with that. You could find that the novelty wears off !

By the way, whatever about using Club Guns, using a Firearm belonging to another person does put you in breach of Firearms Regulations whether it's for one shot or 6 months etc. (Don't go down that road).

Catcher86

Freddie, I can fully appreciate what you are saying and where you are coming from.
I can assure you that I am aware of what the law says in regards with possesion of a firearm and self-defense.
I can also assure you that I have no interest in possesing a firearm for self-defense purposes.
My interest is purely for sporting and competition purposes.

V Bull

I agree totally with Freddie, however, it is not an offence to instruct a person on the safety and use of a firearm and allow them to fire under instruction if you are an instructor at an approved firing range. I cleared this point with my FO recently.

Another point, dodgie looking people....... I went down to my shooting club one Saturday morning, signed in and got permission to shoot on the pistol range, was told there was another shooter already there...... Went into the pistol range and saw this guy, dodgie is not the word. He had tattoos all over him, ear rings to beat the band, you name it, he had it stickin' out of him........ I watched him for a while and then asked him if I could join the firing line. In a very gruf reply he said yeh go ahead and set up. We shot for a while and then began talking about our pistols. Well, to be honest, his handling, safety awearness and knowledge of firearms, ammo, shooting skills were second to none, he knew what he was talkin' about. We have since become very good friends. SO NEVER JUDGE A BOOK BY THE COVER OR HOW IT SOUNDS.

Another day on the rifle range I was shooting away with my 6.5 when I noticed the two guys down the line had pistols hanging under their jackets in shoulder holsters. These guys have been shooting for years, well known to other members and in their mid 30's-40 bracket, responsable and respectfull shooters one might say. Not at all. When asked why carry the pistols like that they said "you never know when you might need it". again NEVER JUDGE A BOOK BY ITS COVER.

GilGrissom

By the way, whatever about using Club Guns, using a Firearm belonging to another person does put you in breach of Firearms Regulations whether it's for one shot or 6 months etc. (Don't go down that road).

How are you covered to use a clubs guns if you don't hold a FAC? Are you not supposed to get one of these training certs?

freddieot

Catcher, the best thing to do is to approach some of the target clubs like Hilltop or Midlands etc. and see what they say when you explain the situation. Unfortunately, you are suffering (as I believe you are genuine) because the clubs must be causious.

Following that or before, if you know your local cops well, call into them to see their approach. Every distirct seems to be different and the requirements like monitored alarm etc. tend to vary as well as their disposition towards giving pistol certs in the first place.

One thing to consider, IF you keep getting brick walls, is that you will get a second hand rifle and scope for about €300 and you should have a lot less trouble joining a club under those conditions. You can always get the pistol later on and sell on the rifle.

To the best of my knowledge most Supts wont discuss a pistol licence unless you are an existing member of a target shooting club but your local FO will fill you in about the local situation. The rules on house security vary I I know one huy with CCTV and they are still not 'totally' happy while others only have a safe..

My main advice is to keep trying. It took me almost a year to get my first rifle licence back in 1993 and that was only a .22. so almost without exception we all had to face some sort of hurdles before getting into this sport. If you think about it from another angle, it is better than a free for all situation.

Best of luck.

freddieot

Sparks

freddieot wrote:

By the way, whatever about using Club Guns, using a Firearm belonging to another person does put you in breach of Firearms Regulations whether it's for one shot or 6 months etc. (Don't go down that road).

Eh, no, it doesn't. Well. It doesn't if you're on a target shooting range in training or in competition (and exposure to different types of firearm can be argued to be a form of training). Technically, you don't even have to be a member of the club at the time.

That said however, it would be the height of bad manners to do this if the club has specific rules prohibiting it.

freddieot

I don't mean this in a disrespectful way but there seems to be an urban myth for want of a better term that because A and B both have pistol s or rifles then it is okay to swop around and lend each other firearms on the range.

However, I stand by what I originally said. With the exception of Club guns which are usually specified and agreed with the Gardai (and also before someone mentions them, training Certs), - using or possessing any firearm for which you do not possess a Firearms Certificate is an offence.

Being a realist, In reality, yes, taking a shot from a fellow shooters gun will happen and I can't ever see anyone spending a night in jail over it. However, as was initially mentioned in this thread, using someone else's firearm over a period of months at a club, as a substitute, however temporary, for getting one yourself, is not something anyone should consider. It is also a good way for the owner to lose his licence and for the authorities to start focusing on the range in question.

Sparks

freddieot wrote:

there seems to be an urban myth for want of a better term that because A and B both have pistol s or rifles then it is okay to swop around and lend each other firearms on the range.

It's an urban myth usually referred to as Section 2, sub-section 4(d) of the Firearms Acts 1925-2006

2.—(1) Subject to the exceptions from this section hereinafter mentioned, it shall not be lawful for any person after the commencement of this Act to have in his possession, use, or carry any firearm or ammunition ...

(4) This section shall not apply to any of the following cases and such cases are accordingly excepted from this section, that is to say:
...
(d) the possession, use or carriage of a firearm or ammunition during a competition or target practice at a club, shooting range or any other place that stands authorised under this section or section 4A of this Act,

In other words, the legislation explicitly permits the use of a firearm during competition or target practise at a range regardless of whether or not you have a firearms certificate for that firearm.

V Bull

Well done Sparks, about time someone knows whats he's talking about.

In addition, the legal certified owner must be present at the shoot / competition and, of course, have his / her cert on them and give permission for use.

This opens another question, what if an accident occours with an injury or worse, who is responsible and or liabil, as the user, the person who borrowed the firearm, may not have INSURANCE for the loan firearm.........

Some clubs will take a small fee from visitors to a range to cover insurance for that days shooting, but I believe that this insurance is for the use of that particular CLUB GUN, owned by that particular club only or your own certified firearm if using it. Not a borrowed firearm from another visiting shooter from a different club.

Transport of a club gun through different Garda Divisions must also have a transport authorisation from each division that the carrier passes through and then it is upto the hosting club to decide if they will allow the carrier to use it on their grounds.

Insurance, Insurance, Insurance the big question..................

On an other point, I beleive that the UK practical pistol team for the European Handgun Championships have posted a request on the IPSC village site requesting the loan and or rental of friearms for the event. This, I beleive was shot down by the orginisers and they were informed that they must have their own firearms for the event. Open to correction......

rrpc

V Bull wrote:

Well done Sparks, about time someone knows whats he's talking about.

In addition, the legal certified owner must be present at the shoot / competition and, of course, have his / her cert on them and give permission for use.

In the case of a club firearm and where the user is a member (or member for the time being) then the legal owner is the club member.

This opens another question, what if an accident occours with an injury or worse, who is responsible and or liabil, as the user, the person who borrowed the firearm, may not have INSURANCE for the loan firearm.........

Depends on the insurance policy, but the legal process is the same as for any accident: Person reponsible, club, etc. in that order.

Some clubs will take a small fee from visitors to a range to cover insurance for that days shooting, but I believe that this insurance is for the use of that particular CLUB GUN, owned by that particular club only or your own certified firearm if using it. Not a borrowed firearm from another visiting shooter from a different club.

That's not how the act reads. it doesn't specify the gun or its ownership, only the use of it and the place of use.

Transport of a club gun through different Garda Divisions must also have a transport authorisation from each division that the carrier passes through and then it is upto the hosting club to decide if they will allow the carrier to use it on their grounds.

Again this depends how the authorisation is worded. It can be worded that the firearm can be used by club members at any authorised range. This precludes the requirement for removal orders which in any event do not exist in law.

On an other point, I beleive that the UK practical pistol team for the European Handgun Championships have posted a request on the IPSC village site requesting the loan and or rental of friearms for the event. This, I beleive was shot down by the orginisers and they were informed that they must have their own firearms for the event. Open to correction......

That depends on the country the event is being held in and its laws. It would be quite possible for this to happen here provided the right t's were crossed and i's dotted.

Manic Moran

foxhunter wrote:

Down here in our club rules state that all members of the club must be known by at least two other members before you are even considered for membership.

Kindof an old-boy's network then, isn't it?

If I'm not part of your circle of friends or colleagues how do I get into the club?

The idea of giving a complete stranger a loaded M4 in that context strikes me as being a complete failure of the self-preservation instinct, not to mention a dereliction of all manner of duties of care to the point of depraved indifference and I'd be bloody shocked if any firearms dealer in Ireland would do something so unbelievably and fundamentally stupid.

There is an important little detail which you seem to have missed. Original post said

we went to a local gun store noxt to an emegration office

Whilst ignoring the egregious spelling issues, the operative word here is 'We'.
You will find very few public ranges here which will rent a firearm to an unaccompanied individual unless the individual has already brought a firearm of his own.

NTM

astraboy

Manic Moran wrote:

You will find very few public ranges here which will rent a firearm to an unaccompanied individual unless the individual has already brought a firearm of his own.

NTM

I found a great place outside Boston, I have gone more then a couple of times to the place. The owner rents everything from handguns right up to Ar-15's and Uzi's, all semi auto of course, not fully auto. All you need is a passport, which I was surprized at considering Massachusetts has some of the stritcer laws regarding guns in the US. I have bought several friends along and both those that are into shooting and those that are not loved it. You get a quick safety lecture, select the firearm you want to shoot and get another quick overrun on how it works, loading etc. The guy is always very helpful and gives great pointers on how to improve your aim during range practice. It is a great way to see if you enjoy shooting without the long run hassel of joing a club, hence maybe why more people are into it in the US, it is easier to try? So far this summer I have tried several handguns, revolver and semi-auto.

V Bull

Thanks for that rrpc, but my point is that if a shooter came to an authorised club, not his own club, to take part in a competition using his buddies firearm, with his buddies permission to use that firearm, and an accident occours, who is liabil taking into account that the shooter has no firearms certificate for that or anyother firearm and possibly no insurance of any kind because he is not a firearms owner. Bearing in mind that they are not members of the host club.

My reading of it would be that there are 3 parties responible, 1 the owner of the firearm, 2 the host club and 3 the actual shooter. Therefore, if I were a club offical overseeing a competition or target shooting event I would not allow anyone who is not a member of the host club to share a firearm during a competition or target shooting event regardless of the possible paperwork that they might have unless they can show a firearms certificate(s) with their names and addresses on it with the firearms details.

les45

Mark.

In relation to movement orders does the folllowing section still apply

Section 16 of the Firearms Act 1925 provides:

" It shall not be lawful for any person to consign-

(b) for removal from one place in Ireland to another such place,

any firearm or ammunition, unless such removal is authorised in writing by
the Superintendent of An Garda Síochána of the district from which firearm
or ammunition is consigned for removal".

In addition, should an individual be the holder of a firearms certificate
for the firearm being moved, they are exempted

The situation in France re the IPSC Match is you must have a domestic permit plus Euro Pass for the firearm you intend to use in the match .