Is CSS worth it?

Bananna man

I had a bash at learnign CSS a while ago and lost interest quickly when i started ready all the hacks and what not for cross browser compatibility. I recently stated thinking about taking the plunge again so I do a search for CSS tutorials and the first site i come to has a big warning saying how all the demo's they have on the site are not working properly in IE7 and that the "fix" has to be updated on all of them. They also said how this would take some time as they were having to fix all sites they had previously done for all clients. After seeing this it put me right off again.

I do small poster websites mostly and am worried that if i make the change im going to spend so much time trying to get layouts to work. Should i just stick to the old reliable tables? The only real benefit i see with CSS is the bandwidth cost a large site would save on thats getting loads of hits.

Huggles

CSS: pain in the ass? Yes Is it worth it? Yes

Hi Banana Man. I know where you are coming from. I have been dabbling for the last year and finally took the plunge three months ago, after the intial aches and pains I haven't looked back and I am delighted that I did it.

You have to get this book if you haven't already http://www.simplebits.com/publications/solutions/ it made everything so easy and done in small stages to let you get your head around it.

The cross browser testing is a pain in the ass but it has to be done. I find if something isn't quite right in IE7 a different approach usually clears it up without skewing something else.

I seriously reccommend the book above, I know I wouldn't be where I am now without it.

Stick with it. If you need anyother help PM me.

Bananna man wrote:

I do small poster websites mostly and am worried that if i make the change im going to spend so much time trying to get layouts to work. Should i just stick to the old reliable tables? The only real benefit i see with CSS is the bandwidth cost a large site would save on thats getting loads of hits.

Think of how quickly you will knock out your sites in the future after you are proficient. Seriously, nothing compares.

Laslo

CSS is easy. As time goes on, the hacks will become less and less necessary - that's the idea behind Web 'standards'. If you don't want to spend the time to markup your sites semantically and using CSS/XHTML then nobody is going to force you to. However, if you want to call yourself a professional then you absolutely must.

Goodshape

Totally worth it.

Cross-browser compatibility can be annoying at times, but like with plain HTML you'll get to know what works and what doesn't.

MartMax

It is worth it. I am not a web monkey or html genius but it helps me a lot working on few of my sites. Tbh, I never did things from scratch. I went after nice and simple open source templates which I later worked on according to my customs. I always ensure that the templates that I obtained are cross browser compatibles, etc. I think it is amateurish but it works well and save me a lot of time! and yes, i found that using divs is a hell lot more fun than tables.

Mart

wheres me jumpa

I no longer use tables but it took me a long time to come around to the idea. It seems like so much hassle at first but once you get a good grasp of it, it becomes second nature. The cross browser compatibility is a huge annoyance, but the time and hair you lose with this issue is more than made up for with the time you save when editing a single file as opposed to every page in your site.

axer

I also am a convert. I started with CSS about 6 months ago. I am by no means an expert but a quick google or a bit of help here on boards usually solves any problems I have.

I would never go back to tables as it is sooooo much easier using divs and css. Plus it makes my websites much more accessible I think.

Keep it simple at the beginning and you shouldn't need many hacks if any at all.

I learned by looking at sites like this. I'd mess with the layouts and change the diffent classes and ids to see what they did. Then browse through A List Apart for great tips on doing different things from shadows to layouts when you get the hang of CSS more.

7aken

css makes life a lot easier and more fun in the long run. personally ive found myself becomming more creative since making the move. the cross browser stuff while a pain in the *** will start to make sense. ok thats a lie but it will get easier! try below for a great overview and some ideas.

http://www.subcide.com/tutorials/csslayout/

phil

Remembering as well, that especially on busy sites, CSS can save you money. Bandwidth is cheaper than it used to be, but CSS driven sites are typically smaller in size than their non-CSS, table-filled brethren.

Phil.

MyPeopleDrankTheSoup

Don't know about the bandwidth savings, bandwidth is so cheap these days, but for SEO reasons, CSS is the only way to go.

Bananna man

georgiecasey wrote:

Don't know about the bandwidth savings, bandwidth is so cheap these days, but for SEO reasons, CSS is the only way to go.

What has it got to do with SEO?

Goodshape

Seperation of style and content makes it easier for search bots to index your site.

Couple that with semantic tags (as oppose to over use of divs) and you're onto a winner.

Bananna man

Goodshape wrote:

Seperation of style and content makes it easier for search bots to index your site.

Couple that with semantic tags (as oppose to over use of divs) and you're onto a winner.

What in the hell are semantic tags? Not another thing to learn

Also, if i install IE7 on windows XP will it remove IE6 or can i run both of them at the same time?

Ph3n0m

Bananna man wrote:

What in the hell are semantic tags? Not another thing to learn

Also, if i install IE7 on windows XP will it remove IE6 or can i run both of them at the same time?

no, you cannot run ie7 and ie6 unless you are a magician . There are sites that claim you can run beta ie7 with ie6 - but meh to that

Bananna man

so how do people test on IE7? 2 PC's?

Gordon

Bananna man wrote:

so how do people test on IE7? 2 PC's?

Exactly what I have been wondering for a while.

axer

Ph3n0m wrote:

no, you cannot run ie7 and ie6 unless you are a magician . There are sites that claim you can run beta ie7 with ie6 - but meh to that

Apparently there are some magicians out there - or at least claim to be!.
See here and here.

Ph3n0m

axer wrote:

Apparently there are some magicians out there - or at least claim to be!.
See here and here.

I would put more faith in the second link since it claims to work with IE 7 RC1 - the first one is talking about his battles with Beta 3

But to answer Bananna Man - yes normally a seperate PC would be used - or a friend who is using the alternate browser to what you have.

Bananna man

Not sure about downloading a file from an unknown website, especially when its google rank is 0. Has anyone used this yet?

mloc

It is a bit of effort to implement initially, but I found by using external stylesheets creating new pages was so easy. It makes it easier to concentrate on page content.

Dar

Ph3n0m wrote:

But to answer Bananna Man - yes normally a seperate PC would be used - or a friend who is using the alternate browser to what you have.

Save yourself some hassle and just use VirtualPC, Parallels, VMWare or something similar. Lets you set up a number of testing environments on virtual machines, meaning no jumping between machines or getting friends to test it for you.

Huggles

In work I have IE7 installed and a standalone version of IE6 also. Works a treat. I also have Firefox which is the Daddy!

I also have a macbook pro running firefox and safari.

Lemon Squeezy

Ph3n0m

TheGooner wrote:

In work I have IE7 installed and a standalone version of IE6 also. Works a treat. I also have Firefox which is the Daddy!

I also have a macbook pro running firefox and safari.

Lemon Squeezy

Wouldnt it be nice if you provided a link on how you got that particular IE setup done?

Huggles

Ph3n0m wrote:

Wouldnt it be nice if you provided a link on how you got that particular IE setup done?

T'would indeed phenom but I am not in work today I am at home, I will have a root around and see if I can find it for ya. Gimmie a bit.
EDIT: here ya go: http://browsers.evolt.org/?ie/32bit/standalone IE6 is at the bottom of teh list. I just unzipped it to my desk top and i use it from there.

frodo_dcu

i'm running stand alone versions of IE3, IE5, IE5.5, IE6, IE7 and firefox 2, opera and netscape.

I can't remember where the link is on how to do this but i'm pretty sure i got here!!!

edit: beat to it

TheGooner wrote:

here ya go: http://browsers.evolt.org/?ie/32bit/standalone IE6 is at the bottom of teh list. I just unzipped it to my desk top and i use it from there.

edit2: for safari i use this http://www.danvine.com/icapture/ that really covers all my bases

Huggles

frodo_dcu wrote:

i'm running stand alone versions of IE3, IE5, IE5.5, IE6, IE7 and firefox 2, opera and netscape.

I can't remember where the link is on how to do this but i'm pretty sure i got here!!!

edit: beat to it


edit2: for safari i use this http://www.danvine.com/icapture/ that really covers all my bases

Why are you bothering with IE3 IE5? They are notoriously non compliant.

Anyhoo, forgot to mention the Total validator add on for Firefox, it takes screen shots for you and emails them to you really quickly. Certainly better than paying browser cam for the pleasure. https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/2318/

frodo_dcu

TheGooner wrote:

Why are you bothering with IE3 IE5? They are notoriously non compliant.

Just to make sure everything de-grades somewhat nicely. i rarely make any changes to suit them but now you see something that can make your sites that wee bit more compatible, you should test in a text only browser too if you want to go all out.

that Total validator looks very good i'll be installing it and trying it out

Huggles

frodo_dcu wrote:

Just to make sure everything de-grades somewhat nicely. i rarely make any changes to suit them but now you see something that can make your sites that wee bit more compatible, you should test in a text only browser too if you want to go all out.

that Total validator looks very good i'll be installing it and trying it out

Yeah total vaidator is class, I only use it for the screen grabs though. I run my sites through the other validators.

Are you a lecturer in DCU by any chance?

frodo_dcu

lol no i'm a former student (DME not MMA) done some tutor work here and there, but now work for a comms company as web developer and IT support and try to do a bit with my own company as well weenomedia.com (edit(again): should validate my own site lol was written by the other guy in the company and he's a designer not a coder)

Huggles

frodo_dcu wrote:

lol no i'm a former student (DME not MMA) done some tutor work here and there, but now work for a comms company as web developer and IT support and try to do a bit with my own company as well weenomedia.com (edit(again): should validate my own site lol was written by the other guy in the company and he's a designer not a coder)

Ah ok im MMA alumni myself. You reminded me of WT! Thats why I asked LOL

I am a designer too and if I where you I'd get the designer moving on standards, it really is down to him! It will stand to him in a few years.

phil

georgiecasey wrote:

Don't know about the bandwidth savings, bandwidth is so cheap these days, but for SEO reasons, CSS is the only way to go.

CSS reduces site size and hence reduces bandwidth. Bandwidth may be cheap, but the more and more you're pushing, the more expensive it becomes. Anyway, it's an added benefit. Who wouldn't want to save money (especially when the benefits are pretty large)

Reducing site size of course also reduces load time, which again means increased visitor happyness!

Phil.